Talk:Hamilton McWhorter III

Attribution
Text and references copied from Hamilton McWhorter III to Grumman F6F Hellcat  See former article's history a list of contributors. 7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 19:21, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Unreliable sources
As I have noted elsewhere, there is no indication that any of the following sources are reliable, and unless that can be shown to be the case, they and the material that is uniquely cited to them needs to be removed from the article: acepilots.com, Honor365.org, and ussessex.org. I have tagged the article, and the tag should remain in place until this issue has been resolved. You should also be aware that reliability issues have been raised with works by Toliver and Constable, see Talk:Erich Hartmann/GA1 for more details. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:55, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I understand your concern. Many of these sites you mention are fan-type sites. However the Journal attesting to the double ace status (I just added) looks to be an official source. So many claim this status. "Air Force Journal of Logistics, Volumes 16-18". Air Force Logistics Management Center. XVI NO 1 (Winter AFRP-1): 28. 1992. Retrieved 25 July 2020. I am sure that this is fact not fiction, and yet I will keep searching for other confirmation.  Lightburst (talk) 02:14, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I'm sure most of the information in the article is legit, but the problem I have is that the principal editor seems to think it is ok to just add reliable sources to backup unreliable sources (hence the citation bombing of the first sentence). What needs to happen is deletion of the unreliable sources and any unique information sourced to them, leaving only reliably-sourced material. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:19, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That is good advice... I am guilty of this as well! Perhaps less is more!
 * Ok- here is another book, calling him the first hellcat double ace. Maybe I can trim fat. Lightburst (talk) 02:33, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, published by Casemate, Stout looks to be reliable. It is ok for the double ace claim, but the claims in that source about him being the first ace in the Hellcat and first ace in the squadron are actually from McWhorter, so it can't be used for those claims. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:42, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes so much of the histories are oral histories. others are just stenographers jotting down what they say. I went to see George Hardy (Tuskegee Airman) speak last year, and then I shot a photo of him an wrote an article. I imagine everything known about him is from him retelling. Lightburst (talk) 02:45, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

That McWhorter said he was the first American naval ace and double ace does not make it untrue. There are multiple WP:RS, including footnote 1. The test is WP:Verifiability in WP:RS. This is verified and true. Page 16 says "double ace". 7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 12:18, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That isn’t the point. The point is that everything needs a reliable source. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 13:05, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Everything needs a reliable source. I understand that. We agree.  And we've done that as you wanted.  WP:Dead horse 7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 13:37, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * So we are clear is not a blog or fan-based wiki.  Indeed, even if it was, it a fully cited and scrupulous in its referencing.   WP:Dead horse  7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 13:45, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * We are certainly not clear, and this is far from a dead horse. acepilots.com is a self-published source by an enthusiast. In what way does Sherman meet the “established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications” test? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 14:35, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Barrett Tillman's 1979 book, which I have cited, states that McWhorter temporarily became the leading carrier pilot with his kills over Truk on 17 February 1944. He notes that Alex Vraciu was the second highest at the time with nine victories. Edward Young's Osprey book makes this implied first double ace claim explicit by stating that McWhorter became the first Hellcat double ace of the war with the victories. So this claim doesn't rely on Sherman's restatements of material in Tillman's book. Kges1901 (talk) 15:03, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Removed I'm done here.  Flauble your dauble all you want. I'm done here.  <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 15:31, 25 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Peacemaker hoping you can give us a hand (get on the dyk?). I saw you made a few constructive edits in the article. Hoping to get this guy in a DYK. FYI I started another article about the only ace to have kills in both European and pacific theaters I would help more but I am sandwiched in coach now and 12% battery. Have a great weekend Lightburst (talk) 16:08, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll have a look after the other information and citations to acepilots.com have been removed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:47, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Have removed the acepilots references. Kges1901 (talk) 00:14, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

That article is looking good! Making sausage is not pretty, but the end result is great. The biography is great reading. What do you all think of the product after the rework? Lightburst (talk) 12:51, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Congressional Gold Medal?
The article says McWhorter was awarded a Congressional Gold Medal, but the sources say it was a Congressional Gold Medal awarded to all Aces; none of the sources name McWhorter specifically, though they do name other pilots. I don't think this belongs in the lead, infobox, or awards section. In the awards section it's described correctly; I added fv tags to the lead and infobox. Also, I reported this to WP:ERRORS. The main page currently says McWhorter is the pilot pictured in the top right of the medal itself, but the article doesn't say this, and I can't find any sources verifying that, either. That's not a problem with the article, it's for ERRORS, but I though I'd mention it in case any page watchers had sources or could otherwise clarify. Lev!vich 17:30, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Reworded - discussion continues on errors. Lightburst (talk) 20:46, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:12, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Congressional Gold Medal for Fighter Aces.png