Talk:Harvey Milk/Archive 9

Time to move the article to FA

 * Note: I boldly archived the full thread at /Archive 8 and edited out the SPA issues down to the current discussion of changes so improvements may proceed. -- Banj e  b oi   01:35, 20 September 2008 (UTC) 

I've come to this page after reading a message on the Fringe theories noticeboard. My view on the People's Temple connection is that it is not a major aspect of Milk's career and should only carry a minor mention if any. My view on the article in general is that it is good, having been written up mainly from a good biography. The aim should be to move it towards FA. I don't mind helping out a little on that. A first point is that some of the headings don't read exactly NPOV and should be toned down a little. "Heroic things" is a minor event relating to someone called "Sipple". Would "Sipple affair" be a better heading? Itsmejudith (talk) 12:40, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "Heroic things" is text within the section - a quote from Milk. It gives it some style - what I hope is part of the brilliant writing part of FAC. I can put that in quotes if you prefer, or just rename it.
 * I have several concerns about FA now. It is a good idea to get a Peer Review and take it through GA prior to FAC. Generally, I like to have input from as many editors as possible, if the editors are interested in improving the article. I'm continuing to review microfilm from Bay area newspapers to give it a full treatment, and I will be adding some images owned by the San Francisco Public Library soon, I hope. --Moni3 (talk) 13:10, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, you're quite right about GA first before FA. But no reason not to set that as the ultimate goal. I'm happy with "Heroic things" in quotes. Itsmejudith (talk) 13:14, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Moni3 is right about first moving through PR then GA before taking this article to FAC.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 14:10, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you think this will be done in time? Xavexgoem (talk) 01:53, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Since one of the primary requirements of a GA or FA is a stable article free of recent edit wars, I'm going to wait a week or so before nominating it for GA. It will stay there for 2 weeks at least (Stonewall riots was nominated 3 weeks ago and has not yet been reviewed). In the meantime, I'll continue to tweak and prod as necessary, and read the Chronicle as it comes along. The San Francisco Public Library is supposed to send a release for some images that I hope is good for Wikimedia. Barring anything else unforeseen, it's on Wikipedia's schedule now. --Moni3 (talk) 02:07, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The movie has at least one gala premier end of October (the 28th in San Francisco) with releases rolling out from there. I think November 26 is the full release date. November 27 is the anniversary of the assassinations. --  Banj e  b oi    02:11, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Very nicely handled all around. PR before or after GA, Moni? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 02:51, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * PR is up now. Look up. --Moni3 (talk) 03:04, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Infobox?
Can I re-add the infobox? --  Banj e b oi    04:47, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought fair use in infoboxes don't mix for some reason I can't quite remember. Although I'm not sure where I heard that, because Manual of Style (infoboxes) saying nothing about it. Also, I've already asked about what the permissions are for the city hall bust over at media copyright questions. -Optigan13 (talk) 05:01, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * We can add one, Benji, but... why? Do you think there's something missing without it? There's no real policy or style regarding an infobox, but some people don't like them. I don't care about them either way unless they're so distracting, or there's other riffraff that puts off the spacing of the article. I just don't want to add one because it's a normal thing to do - there should be a good reason. --Moni3 (talk) 12:54, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I personally prefer them as they summarize a lot of salient details for those looking for dry statistics. Agreed the lede should, in theory, do this but also see it being quite helpful in this regard.
 * Optigan13, I know there is copyright issues regarding public artwork but I'd be willing to bet that even if there is no fair use available those artists would likely be happy to find a solution. I'm unaware of any issues regarding fair-use specific to infoboxes - likely because images should either be OK to use or not. Sometimes an image is given fair-use because it's the only one available and thus also the lede image. --  Banj e  b oi    02:06, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah sorry I don't quite recall where I've seen the no fair use in infoboxes (it may have been only towards living people). The picture of the bust was because I was going to be in the neighborhood, but around the same time I got that response I saw Moni mention that she was already working on images, so I'll just step back and see if the releases end up good. Either way Kurykh has added the infobox back (diff), and the images is a slightly different issue. -Optigan13 (talk) 10:34, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Copyediting

 * It's not a strong preference, but I would delete "where he realized as an adolescent that he was homosexual" from the lead section. I know you've got a lot to squeeze into a little space, but somehow, that just interrupts the logical flow of the narrative for me.  On the plus side, since it concerns adolescence, you can get it in very early in the article, which makes it less urgent to get it into the lead. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 02:57, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Gone. As usual, Dan, just fix what you see needs it. If I see accuracy compromised I'll let you know. --Moni3 (talk) 03:03, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Slashing and burning (just kidding). Per AP Stylebook, no need for "[B]...", you can change the case of the first letter without brackets.  James Buchanan was a historical gay figure; Milk was a historic gay figure.  (And also per AP Stylebook, a historic, not an historic.)  More coming. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 03:17, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think I don't like "friends recalled" in the lead section; is there some doubt as to whether he was restless and easily bored? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 03:24, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * No, just their observations. It can go - it's in the text. --Moni3 (talk) 03:28, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * What's the antecedent to "it" in the last sentence in the quote in the lead section? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 03:30, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "Despite his differences with the San Francisco gay establishment and his occasionally unethical behavior, Milk succeeded in riding the crest of a wave that had been gathering strength for some years. During the beatnik/hippie period the city had become a mecca for all sorts of disaffected people, while retaining its old ethnic mosaic. Milk anticipated the later strategy of the "rainbow coalition" but because of his personal gifts..." I liked the quote in the 2nd part, but couldn't understand and didn't want to confuse readers with this encyclopedia article's treatment of Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Coalition. I'm willing to toss it and find another quote about Milk's influence if the article warrants it. --Moni3 (talk) 13:46, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, the author is referring coalition-building among disaffected voters, but that seems a little wordy, so I went with "a coalition of disaffected voters"; does that work? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 23:31, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


 * "Russian-Jewish parents and the grandson of a Lithuanian salesman": not wrong, but it raises more questions than it answers. Did a Lithuanian salesman move to Russia, have children, and move to the U.S.? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 04:08, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * There was probably a grandmother in there, too. One source says Russian parents, another says Lithuanian grandfather. If you want to make it more vague and encompass the family tree and Eastern Europe somehow, let me know how to do that. --Moni3 (talk) 13:46, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * In that case, I'll change it to eastern European Jewish parents to be safe. I wasn't able to find anything searching for "Harvey Milk" "Lithuania" - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 23:48, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * P.S. If one source seems more credible than the other, if they have details that seem to support either the Lithuanian or the Russian claim, then feel free to stick the one that's supported back in, if you like. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 02:10, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I deleted (something like) "earned him the nickname Glimpy Milch". I think some readers will have the reaction I had...wondering what "glimpy" means and what would earn you that nickname (and then I see it gets only 4600 ghits and doesn't seem to mean anything), and wondering if "milch" was misspelled (it wasn't; it was probably Yiddish and might have been a spelling his Lithuanian grandfather used).  I left "Glimpy" in the next sentence, without comment.  Feel free to add it back if it's important. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 04:59, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The day the film trailer came out, this article in its former state got 24,000 hits. Glimpy Milch is probably Yiddish for something (Sorry, Harvey, that only goys are writing this). Maybe I'll ask someone with familiarity with Yiddish, but how would I know? And how could I determine that not to be OR? Urgh. I changed the use of "Harvey" to the more formal "Milk" to make it consistent. --Moni3 (talk) 13:46, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I can usually find ghits for Yiddish words; I'm getting nothing in the first 7 pages on either "glimpy" or "glimp" that looks like anything but random proper names and online aliases. What we've got now looks fine. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 23:59, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


 * "... Milk could not stand to be bored in his work, and without fail chose romantic partners who were younger and needed an inordinate amount of attention." Doesn't feel right to me; I'm thinking there needs to be some connection between the two halves of the sentence; is there? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 05:10, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Dan. Not sure what you're looking for. I'll be happy to restructure if I can understand what's stickin' in your craw about this. --Moni3 (talk) 22:26, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Things in the same sentence should have a connection to each other. Are you saying the connection is that he needed to stay busy both at work and in relationships? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 23:59, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


 * "the neighborhood entered a depression": What do the sources say? You hear "depressed neighborhood" sometimes, but that's too vague for my taste. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 12:38, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "a gay bar opened on Castro Street and real estate prices plummeted even farther": this is where people start grumbling about WP:SYNTH. Was there a connection between the two? - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 05:24, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Not so much synth. Strange de Jim says the first gay bar that opened in the neighborhood was the Missouri Mule in 1963. Shilts says it was The Gem (no year). Says de Jim of the early 1960s: "Who would have guessed what was about to happen to the neighborhood? In the next few years young families would move out of the area, either because they wanted to raise their kids in the suburbs or because blue-collar jobs in San Francisco were disappearing. Real estate values would fall, and businesses would close on Castro Street." Says Shilts: "(Allen) Baird (Teamsters organizer working with Milk on the Coors beer boycott) never saw anything like the panic that followed the establishment of the first gay bar on Castro Street in the late 1960s. The stolid Irish families sold their Victorians at dirt-cheap prices, fearing greater loss if they waited. By 1973, the number sof gays moving into the neighborhood amounted to an invasion. That;s what the old-timers called the new men of Castro Street - invaders. Now it was 1973 and Baird figured at least half the people moving in were gay, while more of the old-timers sold out." --Moni3 (talk) 15:08, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That's helpful, I rephrased.


 * Be back later today. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 12:36, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Is it okay to change "another city supervisor who was troubled because he recently resigned and wanted his job back" to "another city supervisor who had recently resigned and wanted his job back"? I don't want to say why exactly Dan White was troubled in the lead; that's a long story. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 15:44, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeh, that's fine. Not sure what it said yesterday, but it didn't make a lick of sense. --Moni3 (talk) 15:49, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Okey doke; I copyedited down to Change and John took it from there to the end; his first Wikipedia copyediting job, and he enjoyed the article and the job. I have to catch up on WP:1C copyediting now so I'm unwatchlisting, but please holler if I can make myself useful. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 00:53, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Images
I've done some scouting for images. I have signed an agreement with the San Francisco Public Library to use three images of Milk for the article. But agreements from institutions don't always work with Wikimedia. The Florida Archives had me sign something that did not work in my favor for two images in an Everglades article (I should check on that again...). So I have to get the signed release from SFPL and send it to permissions.wikipedia.org with the images in question and make sure it's ok before loading.

The main image at the top will be deleted. I knew that when I started on the article.

I've contacted the photographer of Milk's official supervisor portrait who declined to agree to release the image to Wikipedia. I've also contacted gay photographer Rink Foto who also declined. Bummer, because he had a sweet pic of the 1978 Gay Freedom Day Parade with marchers carrying huge blow-up photos of the Klan, Hitler, and Anita Bryant. I am trading emails with Dan Nicoletta, who ran Castro Camera while Milk was campaigning. He's having an attorney look over the GFDL to determine if he should release any images to Wikipedia. I've asked for 4. I may not get any.

Last resorts: I have a photo of the building where Castro Camera used to be, I took last month. I have an image of the front page of the Examiner with the huge black CITY IN AGONY declaration over the masthead, and the headline that Dan White will be eligible for the death penalty. Elcobbola says I can use the City in Agony and masthead, or masthead with headline, but not all three, but it's arguable.

So, before we scour places for free images, let's make sure the article won't be riddled with questionable images, or ones that would be bunched up in one or two sections. (And I've not seen the bronze bust of Milk - I read that he's grinning. Would it scare small children?) --Moni3 (talk) 14:13, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I forgot to contact the San Francisco GLBT Historical Society for images. I contacted them to see if they had condensed newspaper articles for Milk, and they did not reply. I'll contact them this week for images and see if I can get any further. --Moni3 (talk) 14:56, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Two issues: I think there's no rule on image size as long as they are 300 px wide or below in the text. I would like to make them 250 px, and I formatted the 3 by Nicoletta but I think it was Benji who made them default size. I checked to make sure, and unless there was something I missed, the rule is that they should be consistent in size unless for a good reason to have them otherwise. So I'd like to go through the article and make sure all the images are 250 px.


 * Second issue: Image:Harvey milk.jpg, which was up for speedy deletion, will not survive FAC without an author, copyright status, and permissions from the copyright holder. I don't know who took that picture, or what it came from. The crease line 2/3 of the way down makes me think it may have come from a newspaper. If that's the case, it's going to be a small possibility that permissions will be granted. If it belongs to a library, permissions from them should not be difficult to get. It just needs to be done. It was uploaded in 2003...anyone want to take this on? If not, it's going to be chucked during FAC. --Moni3 (talk) 15:54, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Forcing size is discouraged - the "px" should not be used; "thumb" is the default. If thumbs are too large add "|upright|". I would say leave the Milk profile image on top until it has to go which will allow a bit of time to add other images in process. As a final punt, a decent head shot could be extrapolated and cleaned up from the mural image on the bottom of the page. The graphics image lab usually turns these around in 1-2 weeks - sometimes much faster. --  Banj e  b oi    02:08, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm going to do my foolhardy best to put the article in FAC with 250 px images, discourage or no. If it's not policy, I'm going to do it. Primarily because the text is huge and the images are not, and 250 px will balance that out.
 * I don't think it's a good idea to to put the artistic representation of Milk at the top of the article. That's the mural image you're referring to, right? Without Image:Harvey milk.jpg at the top of the article, I'll shift another one up there, probably Milk at the mayor's desk. However, that will look bad in the infobox, and I'm not married to the infobox by any means. --Moni3 (talk) 12:45, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I would suggest then another friendly round of emails to the SF public library - I think under the Scott Smith collection to see if they have a better front-facing image they might be able to release. As well, Danny Nicoleta who has not only pro photos but might have some less formal ones that they may be willing to release. I won't quibble against the px until December, after that no promises as I'm likely to forget this entire thread. --  Banj e  b oi    00:01, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Outdent: In terms of "fair use" - historic event (no alternative) - you could probably convert to low res a photo of the historic Dianne Feinstein press conference immediately following the murders. I doubt there is a free alternative and there's no question that it was a historic event.Mosedschurte (talk) 01:40, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I would have to ask about the screen shot of Feinstein, but I don't think it can be fair use because a television crew took it, she was talking to the press at the time, and her image appeared in the newspaper. There may not be a free alternative, but there were certainly many shots of her giving the announcement to the press. And the historic event wasn't Feinstein telling the press, it was Moscone and Milk getting shot. That has no photograph.
 * I plan to contact the SFPL, but I must have patience. Though I work for free here, I can't expect everyone else to do the same, and on my schedule. I heard from them last about a week ago. I'll drop a note to check on their progress. I don't feel comfortable at all asking Dan Nicoletta for more images. He's a professional photographer, he gets paid for his shots, and he was extraordinarily generous to allow the use of three images for free. If the SFPL comes through and the images are usable, that will give us three more images for the article. That will be fine. It will be quite well-rounded and aesthetically pleasing with that. --Moni3 (talk) 14:25, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Alice
Fact tag on who formed Alice. This is what my sources say. Let me see yours, Queerudite, and let's figure out how to write this. Shilts: "Embattled liberal Democrats around town were organizing into Democratic clubs, however, so Jim Foster organized his SIR political committee into the Alice B. Toklas Memorial Democratic Club." (p. 63)

Clendinen: "The strategy was to move the gay constituency to the center of Democratic Party politics, making it a power in the party and in public office. To that end, Jim Foster had, in December 1971, created a new gay Democratic political club, the country's first, and named it for Gertrude Stein's lover, Alice B. Toklas. Its membership and momentum were drawn directly from SIR and the operation of its political committee." (p. 161)

No history on their website at here, unfortunately.

Jim Foster papers at Cornell

I have Lesbian/Woman by Martin and Lyon. Has no index, argh, but it was written in 1972, while Alice was being formed. I'll look through it to find what I can.

I'm going to remove the fact tag, because the citation is good, though disputed. Let's figure out what our sources say and try to reflect that in the language in the sentence. --Moni3 (talk) 13:04, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmmmmm... Many of the articles about Del Martin's death credit her and Lyon with the founding of Alice:


 * San Francisco Chronicle
 * San Francisco Sentinel
 * CNN
 * The Guardian
 * The Independent
 * LA Times
 * Windy City Times
 * The Washington Blade

A few such as the New York Times just say she was an active member.

I also found several sources that credit Jim Foster with the founding:


 * Gay by the Bay (Stryker and Buskirk), pp 64.
 * And The Band Played On (Shilts), pp 278.
 * Conduct Unbecoming (Shilts), pp 168 - which says Alice used to be the "Society for Individual Rights" and Foster transformed it into Alice.
 * The GLBTQ Encyclopedia

Oh wait... Forging Gay Identities (Armstrong), pp 125-126. She says:

"Politicians appealed to SIR and to the Alice B. Toklas Democratic Club, formed by Jim Foster in December 1971."

And she actually cites sources!:


 * "Christopher Street West SF Gay Parade," Advocate, July 19, 1972, 3
 * Susan Stryker and Jim Van Buskirk, Gay by the Bay: A History of Queer Culture in the San Francisco Bay Area (San Francisco: Chronicle, 1996)
 * Greg L. Pennington, "A Parade Almanac", San Francisco Lesbian/Gay Freedom Parade and Celebration Magazine. June 25, 1989, 15.

I am inclined to believe your sources, especially the Cornell Library documents and the 1972 Advocate article that Armstrong cites. It appears all the articles crediting Lyon and Martin were written just this year. I will see if I can dig up a copy of the Advocate article to double-check. Queerudite (talk) 17:31, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm interested to know what you come up with. It appears that SIR had a group of a few members who worked on political issues, and that branched out to be Alice. I get the impression that Martin and Lyon, as founding members of the DOB were probably consulted to help with Alice and may have participated in some of the formation meetings. But they were not as involved in the running in the local DOB. The national group was in the process of disbanding in 1970. Martin and Lyon appear to have been involved in NOW in the early 70s, and Martin actually wrote a very strong letter in The Advocate in 1970 telling gay men to piss off, that she had had it with their chauvinism, and I can't remember where this was written, but in one of her missives about the poor treatment lesbians were receiving the gay rights movement, she said "We're not going to be your 'niggers' any longer". So... I wonder if she had the ability in 1972 to reach out to gay men to form the first gay political organization. --Moni3 (talk) 17:45, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Milk day...
Apparently the California legislator has passed a bill to declare Harvey's birthday a state holiday. You can read the bill on leginfo.ca.gov. This is likely something that should be added at some point. If no one else wants to take the lead on this I'll write up a paragraph when I have more time. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 16:03, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It's in the Tributes section. But thank you for the suggestion. --Moni3 (talk) 16:08, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. I missed it. ---J.S  (T/C/WRE) 16:15, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Suggested Add
It's me, but don't worry. No changes, just a suggestion. And it's not Peoples Temple related. Right now, there is just a brief mention in part of a sentence about the citywide-to-district election changes. Prop T was a transformative measure for San Francisco politics, allowing local communities to gain power, and may have been a large reason that both candidates like Milk and his eventual assassin White were able to gain seats on the Board.

Right now, the current sentence is this:"In November of 1976, voters in San Francisco decided to re-organize supervisor elections to choose supervisors from neighborhoods instead of voting for them in city-wide ballots. Harvey Milk quickly qualified as the primary candidate in District 5, surrounding Castro Street.(ref)Shilts, p. 166.(ref)"Think about going with something more like this:"In 1976, Harvey Milk supported a ballot initiative to elect individual supervisors representing local districts instead of by citywide elections called Proposition T. Neighborhood and labor groups dissatisfied with the operations of the current Board of Supervisors backed the initiative. Although Proposition T opponents outspent supporters two-to-one and both major San Francisco papers opposed the measure, the initiative passed in November of 1976. Proposition T's passage brought about significant changes, with five of the incumbent eleven Supervisors choosing not to run in the November 1977 election. Victorious newcomers more closely paralleled the demographic and political characteristics of their districts. They included both Milk from District 5 and Dan White from District 8."Here it is with parenthetical symbols replacing tag demarcators:"In 1976, Harvey Milk supported a ballot initiative to elect individual supervisors representing local districts instead of by citywide elections called Proposition T.(ref)Shilts, p. 76.(/ref) Neighborhood and labor groups dissatisfied with the operations of the current Board of Supervisors backed the initiative.(ref name='hartman228')(Hartman, Chester W. and Sarah Carnochan, City for Sale: The Transformation of San Francisco, University of California Press, ISBN 0520086058, p.228-9(/ref) Although Proposition T opponents outspent supporters two-to-one and both major San Francisco papers opposed the measure, the initiative passed in November of 1976. (ref name='hartman228'/)(ref)Shilts, p. 166.(/ref) Proposition T's passage brought about significant changes, with five of the incumbent eleven Supervisors choosing not to run in the November 1977 election.(ref name='hartman233')(Hartman, Chester W. and Sarah Carnochan, City for Sale: The Transformation of San Francisco, University of California Press, ISBN 0520086058, p.233(/ref)  Victorious newcomers more closely paralleled the demographic and political characteristics of their districts.(ref name='hartman233'/) They included both Milk from District 5 and Dan White from District 8.(ref name='hartman233'/)"Mosedschurte (talk) 02:29, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I have access to this book, and I will check it out and read it. From scrolling through the 1976 San Francisco Examiner election special in November 1976, it is my impression that the primary issue regarding incumbents running in neighborhood elections was that they had to move to a different district. White had to give his address from his mother's house to qualify to run in District 8. My concern is the amount of weight to give it in comparison to the other issues that Milk supported. The expanded paragraph there seems more appropriate to the San Francisco Board of Supervisors article. --Moni3 (talk) 02:45, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I see your point. You might want to just drop a sentence that five incumbents dropped out after Prop T, the newcomers more closely paralleled the demographics and political leanings of their district, and they included both Milk and White. It is sort of some importance to Milk's story since, without Prop T, Milk and/or White might not have even made it into office.  Just a suggestion and, to be clear, I don't plan on any edits of this article. Mosedschurte (talk) 04:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)