Talk:History of Liverpool

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Suggest modifying the mention of the Beatles role in the Capital of Culture Bid. Although they play an important role in Liverpools bid the article makes it sound as if all the other aspects of Liverpool are secondary to them. --Rjm 12:14, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * There is no conflict, The Beatles and the Capital of Culture are not specifically linked. I've re-phrased and put the two sentences on different lines for better emphasis. Shrew 13:17, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I'll be joining you on this page because considering that the Liverpool we know recognize was built on slavery, so it is very dubious for it only to be mentioned in a mere sentence or 2. This attitude has kept people miseducated and ignorant. Its true history needs to be addressed as an example for others to follow. Shall be creating my user ID in the NTDF... Cheers!


 * I appreciate your point but I think the article has swung too far the other way with other important trades being largely ignored, sugar and tobacco (of which Liverpool had the biggest warehouse in the world) are not even mentioned.


 * I also find; 'Slavery was 'officially' abolished in 1807 however, it was formally replaced by 7 year apprenticeships, even though slave merchants knew that the life expectancy of slaves on plantations did not exceed an average 4 years maximum.' confusing.


 * Slavery was abolished in mainland britain in 1807 and on British registered ships but it wasn't until 1833 that legislation banned it on all British colonies. The apprenticeship system was created in August 1834 and abolished in 1838.  Also were there any slave plantations in Britain itself?  The article makes it sound like there was.  Pehaps a re-write is in order to clear this up.--Rjm 18:18, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I've made a few changes which are fairly minor but I hope address some of these historical points, eg importance of cotton trade - but without changing the section on slavery itself. My inputs derive from a geography thesis I wrote in the early 1970s on the historical development of the old city, based on a variety of published sources as well as my own research. Hope they help. Ghmyrtle 12:02, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

"Most racist city in Europe"??
This entire section was completely unfounded. I have removed it. Pobbie Rarr 03:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Origins of the name
An alternative view concerning the origin of the name of the city of Liverpool!

The following is from an old post made by me, and it is possible that it could be included into the article concerning the same?

"Letter to the Editor

ARCHAEOLOGY Magazine

Title: LIVERPOOL, the origin of the word!

In the Nov/Dec, 2003 issue of ARCHAEOLOGY, I found an article entitled ASSAULT ON TRADITION, by David Keys. In this article Mr. Keys wrote; By the end of the seventeenth century, Liverpool was already Britain’s third largest port, and its hundred ships, manned by 1,100 seamen, played a major role in the sugar, rum, and tobacco trades. The original tidal inlet, the “pool” from which the city gets its name (liferpol is the Anglo-Saxon word for “muddy water creek”),... (It should be noted that Liverpool is located in/on the estuary of the Mersey River.)

I tend to dispute this assertion that Liverpool got its name from an old “Anglo-Saxon word for ‘muddy water creek’ since this would hardly be a descriptive word for the port and the tidal water therein. Because I am not an expert in extinct Anglo-Saxon words, I cannot argue that “liferpol” does not exist nor that it means “muddy water creek.” And, I do not know from what sources the author gathered his information that was used to explain the relation of “liferpol’ to Liverpool.

I can however argue that it was probably not from this “extinct?” word, that the city derived its name. It seems much more reasonable to ascertain its origin from words more common to the industries that made Liverpool a top rank port city in Britain. The city’s name is much more likely to have far more modern origins. Let me explain; get any good dictionary and look up the first word of Liver-pool. My source is Webster’s, New World Dictionary of the English Language, second edition.

“Liver, a noun [from Middle English livere from Old English lifer, akin to Greek liber from ? Intermediate English base leip-, to smear with fat, whence Greek liparos, fat]”. You can plainly see that the Old English word lifer (which I can assume is of Anglo-Saxon origin) appears to mean “smear with fat” which I can translate into a more common form which is “GREASE”, since we all know that wheels were greased for many years with animal fat. Taking this to its point, the word liferpol (I assume in the eye and words of Mr. Keys), is a compound word with lifer meaning “muddy watered” and “pol” (short for pool) meaning creek. The dictionary, on the other hand, implies that lifer means “grease” and it is agreed that grease mixed with water would look “muddy” so maybe there is some connection! I assume that pol may have another meaning also. Perhaps I am wrong in this assumption, but prima facie, this appears to be a far cry from what the author says is the Anglo-Saxon meaning of lifer-pol. My apologies if my thinking is outside of current thought on the subject.

But back to the Dictionary. Further down the list of words we find liveried, which means wearing a livery! And what pray tell is a livery you ask? Here is the crux of my argument, the word livery! Again from my dictionary;

“Livery, a noun, [Middle English, allowance of food, gift of clothes to a servant, then delivered, from Old French, livree, the past participle of livrer, to deliver, from Latin liberare, to LIBERATE.]

1. An identifying uniform such as was formerly worn by feudal retainers or is now worn by servants or those in some particular group, trade, etc.

2. The people wearing such uniforms.

3. Characteristic dress or appearance.

4.a) the keeping and feeding of horses for a fixed charge.....

4.b.) The keeping of horses, vehicles, or both, for hire.

4.c. Same as LIVERY STABLE.

5. A place where boats can be had for hire. 6. Law the legal delivery of property, esp. landed property, into the hands of the new owner.”

Well!, you may say, so what? It is my opinion that Livery, and the meanings numbered; 1., 2., 3., 4., 5., and 6., above fit into my scheme of things concerning Liverpool. This scheme will become clearer when you read the next entry of my dictionary.

“Livery company, any of the London city companies that grew out of earlier trade guilds, characterized by distinctive ceremonial dress.”

Thus we should be able to see some relationship between the “business” of Liverpool, England and the definitions above. The ‘business” of Liverpool was shipping and the delivery of goods, as well as the export of other goods. The unlading, lading and movement of these goods may have involved all of the six meanings, Uniforms with a distinctive style, the use of horses to move the cargo, places were boats are for charter or hire, and the legal delivery of the landed goods with the proper paperwork to satisfy the Royal Majesties Customs and Excise officers, etc. Mr. Keys, made a particular mention that Liverpool “ played a major role in the sugar, rum, and tobacco trades.” This mention points out that the trade was at that time, more geared to the products imported into Britain than the goods exported back to the New World. Thus it would seem that the workers in Liverpool and in other port cities in Britain were more involved in the transportation of and the handling of imported rum, tobacco, and sugar than in exporting finished goods to the colonies. But of course the truth is, the exchange went both ways. Thus large amounts of manufactured British goods were exported from these same ports. Profits existed on both sides both in the importation of goods and in the export of goods but I am getting off topic. So now the next word in my dictionary.

“Liveryman, noun, 1. Formerly, a liveried retainer or servant. 2. A member of a livery company. 3. A person who owns or works in a livery stable.” It should be of no surprise that the next word in my dictionary is;

“livery stable, a stable where horsed are and carriages can be had for hire, or where horses are kept for a fixed charge.”

With the above definitions in your mind you may well figure out that I have taken the word “liver” and expanded it a little to the word “livery” and its derivatives. A related term to “livery” would be “dray”and its derivative “drayage”, and “drayman”, which I leave to the readers to look up for themselves.

Now, since you know the direction in which this letter is going, we have to look at the second part of the compound word “Liver-pool”, thus from the same dictionary;

“pool, a noun [French poule, pool, stakes, originally hen, from Lower Latin, pulla, hen, the feminine of Latin pullus (see POULTRY) associated in E. with prec.]”

I will skip the first two definitions and get right to the one that suits my argument, meaning;

“3. A combination of resources, funds, etc. for some common purpose; specific., a)........ b) the combined investments of a group of persons or corporations undertaking, and sharing responsibility for, a joint enterprise. c) a common fund of stockholders, for speculation, manipulation of prices, etc. d) the persons or parties forming any such combination. 4. A combination of business firms for creating a monopoly in a particular market; trust. 5. A supply of equipment, trained personnel, etc. the use of which is shared by a group.”

So what do I have here? It is this! I conjecture, based upon the definitions given above that the city we now refer to as Liverpool, gained its name from the combination of the words/terms Livery, as in;

A. “Liver, a noun [from Middle English livere from Old English lifer.

B.  Livery, 1. An identifying uniform such as was formerly worn by feudal retainers or is now worn by servants or those in some particular group, trade, etc. 2. The people wearing such uniforms. 3. Characteristic dress or appearance. 4.a) the keeping and feeding of horses for a fixed charge.....b.) The keeping of horses, vehicles, or both, for hire. C. Same as LIVERY STABLE. 5. A place where boats can be had for hire. 6. Law the legal delivery of property, esp. landed property, into the hands of the new owner.”

C. “Livery company, any of the London city companies that grew out of earlier trade guilds, characterized by distinctive ceremonial dress.”  Thus we should be able to see some relationship between the “business” of Liverpool, England and the definitions above. The ‘business” of Liverpool was shipping and the delivery of goods, as well as the export of other goods.

D. “Liveryman, noun, 1. Formerly, a liveried retainer or servant. 2. A member of a livery company. 3. A person who owns or woks in a livery stable.”

E. “pool, 3. A combination of resources, funds, etc. for some common purpose; specific., a)........ b) the combined investments of a group of persons or corporations undertaking, and sharing responsibility for, a joint enterprise. c) a common fund of stockholders, for speculation, manipulation of prices, etc. d) the persons or parties forming any such combination. 4. A combination of business firms for creating a monopoly in a particular market; trust. 5. A supply of equipment, trained personnel, etc. the use of which is shared by a group.”

Thus, I conjecture that it is far more probable that the city received its name from the combination of the important features necessary in a port during the seventeenth century. That is, to make sure your products reached the warehouses, the wholesalers, and the retailers, in those days you had to have horses, and stables, and wagons, and drivers, etc. The net effect would be a city that ended up under the control of those persons who managed the concerns of horses, wagons and the people and facilities to insure the goods were unloaded and moved to their ultimate destination. So the original name of the area was the “LIVERY POOL”, a term that described the occupations and the dress of those involved in the business, which of course (ultimately) was shortened to LIVERPOOL.

Sincerely,

Ronald L. Hughes

Post script (2009);

I could also make a good case for the “muddy water” or “greasy water” that was used by Mr. Keys in his article. Since I also believe that the men involved in the moving and shaking of the world in those days were also some what experts in word play, etc., that they might well have noticed that “bilge” water, which may have been, then, as it is today, pumped or bucketed from the holds of ships and the dumped into the estuary might well have “muddied” the water! Certainly the bilge of a sailing ship would tend to contain a lot of contaminated material, such as wax / tallow, oils from goods, oils from cooking, oil from lamps, etc., (and if not thrown overboard some of these “clouding water” materials) would make their way into the bilge water and later be deposited in the docking areas of Liver-pool!"

69.92.23.64 (talk)Ronald L. Hughes69.92.23.64 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:16, 27 July 2009 (UTC).


 * See WP:FRINGE, WP:V - and the fact that the name is first referenced in the 12th century. Irrefutable arguments for this "theory" not to be mentioned in the article, in the unlikely event that anyone is tempted to do so!  Ghmyrtle (talk) 06:42, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Beatles RfC
You are invited to participate in an RfC at Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/The Beatles on the issue of capitalizing the definite article when mentioning the band's name in running prose. This long-standing dispute is the subject of an open mediation case and we are requesting your help with determining the current community consensus. For the project. Mlpearc Phone ( Powwow ) 14:32, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Football
As much as I love the football, is this really the page to have big paragraphs on Liverpool & Everton? I don't think it is. Babydoll9799 (talk) 11:42, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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"Cudlian"
"According to the Cudlian is first recorded in 1833." What does this mean? Constant Pedant (talk) 02:47, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for spotting this. It was vandalism (from May 2018!), which I've now reverted.   Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:25, 18 October 2019 (UTC)