Talk:IPad/Archive 3

Edit Request
Wired magazine was released May 27, 2010 --Robotdude101 (talk) 12:38, 28 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The article says "by June," which includes late May. Once all three have been released, we can use the past tense. HereToHelp (talk to me) 13:50, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Ibookstore.
The article should include something about Ibookstore prices. I was looking to by one for my daughter who is an avid reader but after much research found that Ibooks are substantially more expensive then Kindle books or even retail bookstore bestseller discount prices(they are equivalent oor higher then full list hardcover prices). I would like to have the following included in this article;

Currently, Ibookstore prices are equivalent or higher than retail hardcover book prices except for Project Gutenberg books. Ibooks, also, does not allow users to read books from Kindle books or other online bookstores secondary to non-compatibility with Ipad's ePub system. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Billybobiscool (talk • contribs) 20:36, 28 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia does not include prices unless they are cited by wp:reliable sources. HereToHelp (talk to me) 20:46, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

iPad a PC
I'd say it was and this has recently been removed from the article. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 21:22, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well its been reverted. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 22:00, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid there are a lot of people who bear a grudge or something against the iPad, some of them claim its not a "personal computer", for various reasons. The most creative one yet I saw was that "its not a personal computer because you are not totally free to put any sh*t on it you want, just like you were not free to run anything you liked on a mainframe, because the "guys in white coats" would not let you". So because with PC's you could, and with the iPad not "its not a PC", the reasoning goes, because a PC can be used "without intervening computer operator", and Apple is seen as the "intervening computer operator". This was one reason I didn't like the article to link to tablet PC. I predict we will hear more about people that claim the iPad "isn't something". And, you know what? They are right! "its something else altogether", but you can operate it yourself! Mahjongg (talk) 22:21, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Quick test to tell if something is a Personal Computer: Is the person who owns it able to and is expected to select the programs that run on it by themselves without having some gatekeeper in the way? If the answer is no then it is a locked down programmable device (like a Wii) rather than a PC. Hcobb (talk) 14:19, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, then the iPad is a personal computer, because you can install any available program (specifically written for the platform) yourself. You don't need a "computer operator" for that. That the library of available programs only contains programs that are checked for absence of malware or software of dubious quality is another matter. Mahjongg (talk) 15:46, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm not going to go into a debate here on if it's a PC or not. Instead I'm going to jump right into Wikipedia policy on this issue as it stands now. In order for the article to claim the device as being a PC we need a reliable, factual, reference for the such. If one is provided then the article could/should state that the device is a PC. Otherwise, especially with this ongoing debate, it is against Wikipedia policy to state that the device is a PC in the article. JeremyWJ (talk) 16:33, 29 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I figured the best place, assuming accuracy, on this would be to reference Wikipedia itself on this page Personal Computer. Reading through that, and all other things not-withstanding, I conclude myself the iPad to be considered a PC. JeremyWJ (talk) 16:42, 29 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I think that is a sane conclusion, but am sure it will be challenged. I have not seen any mainstream publishers claiming the iPad is not a "Personal computer". That at the least should be a minimum requirement to even mention that some people contend the fact that an iPad can be seen as a personal computer. I'm not even sure myself if the iPad is a "PC", there are valid reasons to think otherwise, there are many discussions online about it, like here . I just think that the argument that tries to deny the iPad the status of "personal" by taking the ancient "if you need people in white coats (computer operators) to run it for you its not a personal computer (but a mainframe)" argument and then re-interpret it so that Apple is acting like the "intermediate operator" is a far fetched, and concocted argument. At the moment the reasonable thing to do is to talk about it as having the status of "personal computer". yes its not the same thing as a PC, but the similarities outweigh the differences. Mahjongg (talk) 18:52, 29 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The articles I've seen talk about the iPda as an extension of earlier PDAs from Apple. Hcobb (talk) 19:21, 29 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, but its an IPad, not an iPda D'oh!... Mahjongg (talk) 23:49, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think I have a good argument to make for this actually. The only thing people are saying makes the iPad not a PC is the fact that you need another person (service/Apple) to get your applications.  Lets step back though for a second.  The only reason you need a 3rd party is due to limitations in the operating system (or firmware).  Lets take a normal PC that most of us are using.  If we installed an operating system that doesn't allow us to freely install software does that make our computer/PC not a PC?  I don't think so.  In other words, the argument people are making really is dwelling down to the operating system (iPhone OS) not the actual iPad (hardware).  I think this makes any point people have thus far given for the iPad not being a PC mute.  Thoughts, Comments? JeremyWJ (talk) 03:10, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

If you install Linux on a Playstation, does it become a PC or just a node in a supercomputer? Hcobb (talk) 05:25, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

a thought; most Linux systems (like Ubuntu) install software from a repository of previously packed software, through an installer (Synaptic) that only installs software from these repositories. Yes you can bypass this system, but for a normal user using the repository system is the norm. What is the difference between Ubuntu's repository, and Apples software store (except that Ubuntu doesn't sell software). They both only contain software pre-checked by a "trusted party" to make sure they don't contain malware or "rubbish". Nobody is contending that using software this way prohibits an Ubuntu system from being called a "personal computer". Mahjongg (talk) 08:54, 30 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Correct, and we also all know that Apple's system can be hacked (unlocked). Its just a matter of time.  Again I think the fact that makes this entire argument silly is the fact that we are discussing limitations in the OS (iPhone OS) and not limitations in the iPad hardware itself as the mitigating factor in it being a PC or not. JeremyWJ (talk) 15:52, 30 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The article is really confusing, first stating that the iPad is a tablet computer and then goes on to say that "it established a new class of devices between smartphones and laptops." Well what is it then? Steve Jobs thinks it's somewhere between a handheld phone-size device and a full laptop. The iPad is essentially a giant iPod Touch. Would you call the iPod Touch a tablet computer? The iPod Touch article describes it as a a portable media player, personal digital assistant, and Wi-Fi mobile platform.68.41.65.226 (talk) 11:34, 7 May 2010 (UTC)


 * No confusion, because one thing doesn't prohibit the other. Its purely a question of semantics what to call the thing, and after a period of confusion the market will decide what to finally call it. I'm calling it an iPad. Mahjongg (talk) 19:37, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Isn't it a Handheld game console instead of a PC? Hcobb (talk) 19:51, 7 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Nice try, but no, it isn't! As by that logic a Netbook would be a "portable game device" too, as said it "all of the above,,,". Mahjongg (talk) 01:09, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy would be to find a reliable, qualified source and quote that. A quick Google fight shows 19,700 hits for 'the iPad is not a PC' versus 18 hits for 'the iPad is a PC'.83.108.205.51 (talk) 10:08, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The google results are meaningless, as nobody would comment on something that is expected (obvious), only on something not expected (non obvious). Thats said, the discussion whether "the iPad is a PC" should also take into account WHY people think that the iPad isn't a PC, or IS a PC. Is it "not a PC" because "it's not for personal use", or because its not a "Personal computer" in the normal sense because of other reasons. For example because its not "standalone" and it needs another PC to initiate, to backup, and to install updates. Mahjongg (talk) 16:55, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

The Ipad is not a "PC" it is a "Tablet PC" Apple have never said it is a PC however they have said it is a tablet PC on numerous occasions Guyb123321 (talk) 08:30, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Section on Foxconn
As I bought up on Talk:Apple Inc this shouldn't be included in the article as it isn't statistically significant. The suicide rate in the UK is 11.5 per 100000 and the suicide rate in China as a whole is 14 per 100000, that 9 people out of 300000 or so who work at the plant have jumped off a building this year and killed themselves is very sad - but it isn't remotely statistically significant as the suicide rate at Foxconn is only 6 per 100000.

In fact I think we should be praising Foxconn for having a suicide rate that is half of what it is in the UK or China as a whole and we should certainly give them credit for taking the matter seriously (though that should be covered on Foxconn not iPad). -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 08:44, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


 * This information is all WP:OR, and cannot be included; also, in an encyclopedia we do not praise anybody, nor do we hold a brief for any particular manufacturer or product; that would breach WP:NOP. If somebody in a WP:RS heaps praise on the factory, that is a different matter - but then such priase would need to be clearly attributed to the source. Mish (talk) 09:10, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Well that's great, but I'm not attempting to include it in the article, just to explain the issue at hand. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 10:06, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure, but we cannot use WP:OR to exclude WP:RS either. The comparison doesn't work anyway - would need to compare workplace suicides between factory and country generally, or other countries, not with the suicide rate in the general population. Mish (talk) 10:34, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair point. However I found a reliable source to back it up - http://www.economist.com/business-finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=16231588. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 10:40, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Unless the text can show that the suicides are specifically related to the iPad, the entire section belongs in the Foxconn article. It is plainly irrelevant here. It would be relevant in the Apple article only if it were worded differently to discuss Apple's response to the suicides.--Jiang (talk) 14:51, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


 * No, a release from Apple, if reported in the media, would be a secondary source, and carry no weight than media sources.Mish (talk) 16:07, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


 * My point is about relevance. It is not relevant here. And I don't get your statement. We usually do not use primary sources as authority here.--Jiang (talk) 02:14, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Independent report on working conditions
The Independent is one of the 4 UK national broadhseets, and a first-order WP:RS. On 05-27-2010, it ran a front page that consisted of the headline "A gadget to die for?", and an image of the iPad next to a photo of a you man who had committed suicide, followed by a two page report on the factory where the iPad is produced. This piece featured in the context of the UK release of the iPad the following day, and included a photo of a smiling consumer holding an iPad leaving an Apple store. The article does make clear that other mobile communication device suppliers apart from Apple, such as Nokia, also use the factory; however, the focus on the article was in the context of the release of the iPad, the working practices involved, the attempts Apple have made to curb these, whether this is implemented in the light of the demand, etc. After I inserted text about this, it was removed as WP:UNDUE - which is absurd when the article featured a picture of an iPad as the front page, on the eve of its release in the UK, with text to that effect. The text is clear that Apple are not the only firm who use th factory. This encycopledia is not a promotional outlet for technology manufacturers, and failing to include this from a WP:RS is itself WP:UNDUE given the hype that informs the bulk of the page. If an edit war to censor out this material develops, then I will be tagging the article for neutrality. Mish (talk) 08:56, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Personally I was hoping to discuss the matter on the talk page, but again while the Western media may be getting very excited about this story I'm not really clear on how it is significant. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 09:02, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I have explained this, if you cannot understand why a headline feature on a consumer product in a major national newspaper is significant - that is not really my problem. Mish (talk) 09:13, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I've done some more investigation and there seems to be significant coverage of this issue, so I change my mind and think it should be included in the article. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 10:15, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I've added coverage of the issue from more sources and moved it to the manufacturing section. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 10:29, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Mish (talk) 10:32, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

I am trying to WP:AGF here, but some of this editing does raise a concern in my mind about whether there is a WP:COI going on here. I apologise if I have this wrong, but it just seems to me that persistent weaseling to avoid describing this situation in the sorts of terms used in WP:RS is a problem for me. Mish (talk) 12:53, 29 May 2010 (UTC) I swapped the sequence in your recent edit, as this was not the sequence in the article:


 * The toll (a dozen this year) is lower than the suicide rate among the general population in China. But the deaths have raised questions about working conditions in electronics manufacturing in general and in particular at Foxconn

Why Foxconn in particular? Because they manufacture for brand-leaders in the telecomms and computing industry, and this helps raise the profile of the issue through the media. (not intending to insert that comment) Mish (talk) 13:05, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry I just re-read this. Mish, you think we should mention this in the article to help raise the profile of the issue in the media? Isn't that bordering on WP:SOAP? AlistairMcMillan (talk) 14:41, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


 * That is not what I said - this is the reason why there is this focus in the media at this time. It is directly connected with the relase of the iPad in the UK, hence the text in the media.  I made it clear this is in discussion, not for the article.   the reason for inclusion is because of significant coverage in the national media. Mish (talk) 16:07, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * @Mish, there is no conflict of interest. Its just that while $130/month may seem low by Western Standards its not bad money for a developing country, and its far more than you get working 16 hours/day as a subsistence farmer. Sure I'd like it if these workers earned more money and had better conditions, but the fact that these jobs are available is a good thing as it is helping lift countries like China out of poverty - additionally the conditions at the Foxconn factories are better than average which is also good. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 12:42, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Quick question
Does anyone have a reliable source that says these workers were actually assembling iPads? Or even that they were working on Apple products at all? I quickly read through the sources on this article and a few of the sources on the Foxconn article and didn't see anything that explicitly says they were working on Apple stuff. If they weren't, I'd recommend this gets moved to the Apple Inc article. AlistairMcMillan (talk) 14:38, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


 * No, but as was made clear, before the original text was butchered to make it more sanitary, this was the full-spread cover page of the Independent, which featured a picture of the iPad next to somebody who had committed suicide, with the headline "A gadget to die for". the text is all about the release of the iPad in the UK, and the working conditions at the factory where it is produced, and other factories.  Nit-picking about which production lines workers were employed on is not WP:RELEVANT - trying to establish such links (or lack of them) is speculation.  What is important is to maintain encyclopedia policy and guidelines - which are about accuracy, reliablity and verifiability.  Thus, we focus on what was said in the newspapers, and that focus was on the iPad.  We might not like this, or we may think it unfair, but we do not determine content, we go by what is said in WP:RS, not what we think might be true.  If you don't like it, it needs to be taken to WP:AN/I, rather than edit-warring to avoid WP:NPOV.Mish (talk) 16:07, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


 * If you had read the articles, particularly the main one in the Independent, which has now been safely buried in the editing process, you would see quite clearly in the first paragraph:


 * The American electronics giant Apple was investigating damaging allegations last night that Chinese workers making its new iPad device were subjected to such "inhumane" treatment that some of them took their own lives by jumping off factory roofs.


 * The connection in the article is inescapable.Mish (talk) 16:17, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I did read that source. It says "allegations". As far as I can tell no-one has come up with any sources that definitively state that the people who attempted suicide were working on the iPad assembly lines. My concern is that the only reason the Independent focussed on the iPad in that article is because it was being launched the next day. If Microsoft were launching a Foxconn manufacturer product the next day, would the Independent have focussed on that product instead? If there aren't any sources that definitely state that these were workers on the iPad lines I don't think this belongs here, I think it belongs in the Apple article. Also worth adding to the Nokia article as well, given that they have products manufactured at Foxconn's plants as well. AlistairMcMillan (talk) 19:46, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, that is similar to what I said earlier. The report is what it is, in a reliable source, and states quite clearly that Apple are concerned about this.  Take it up with the WP:RS if you don't like it.  The report came in the stream of media publicity about the iPad because there was a media stream about the release of the iPad.  That is what connects this to the iPad.  The allegation is that this is connected to the manufacture of the iPad, and that there is documentary evidence about this.  What is so hard to understand about this.  We don't say that marketing hype is not related to the iPad - why do we have to apply a different standard to other reports about the iPad?  Being an allegation is irrelevant - we document the allegation in a way that conforms to WP:NPOV, we do not censor national newspapers because we don't like what they say.  This is OK in the UK, although I appreciate this is not the practice in some other countries. Mish (talk) 21:36, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I've re-read the Independent piece and its pretty clear that they are only trying to make a story out of the Foxconn thing by connecting it to the iPad. The "documents seen by the Independent" sound like Apple's supplier responsibility report. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 23:04, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Maybe they did use the launch date and the spate of suicides in the previous months which coincided with the need to meet the demand for the product - the point is that they did do the piece, and they were not alone in this, because now three of the four main UK national broadsheets have reported or commented on this in the context of the launch of the iPad, and most feature the iPad in the headline or prominently in the first paragraph, most alleging that this is connected to the manufacture of the iPad:

as well as Major regional newspapers: one tabloid: other UK sources, one capitalist and one communist : as well as newspapers in the region concerned. When the headlines and opening paragraph include the iPad, and the allegations connecting it to the suicides at the factory, this cannot be ignored in this encyclopedia.Mish (talk) 23:47, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The Telegraph
 * The Guardian/Observer
 * The Independent again, (additional to the first front page headline piece)
 * London's Metro
 * The Belfast Telegraph
 * Daily Mail
 * The Morning Star
 * The Financial Times

foxcon section
i have removed this section from the man article. i think (WP:NPV) this information is notable enough to be on wikipedia. Perhaps it can go on its own article or on an article about foxconn if there is one. Perhaps the content should be linked from this or another apple article (and articles for other manufacturers who use foxconn). However, it does not relate specifically to this article or to the ipad. It does not belong here and as such i have removed it until a new home is found

Proposed text on UK reports about iPad & factory suicides
In the first five months of 2010 a series of nine suicides (plus two suicide attempts that resulted in severe injuries, and twenty suicides that were averted) had taken place at Foxconn's factory complex in Shenzhen, China. Conditions at Foxconn are said to be better than other factories in China, and the rate of suicides at the factory complex is less than the overall suicide rate in China. The Independent reported documentation revealing "widespread failures" in most of the 102 supppliers to Apple; Apple expressed "upset" about the situation, and that they intend to investigate the conditions at the plant. Concerns have been expressed about working conditions at Foxconn specifically, and in the electronics manufacturing industry as a whole - especially the long hours of overtime many workers were doing. Foxconn has started to improve conditions at the factory by providing mental health staff for their workers as well as fitting nets around the buildings so that further suicide attempts are less likely to succeed.

Nicoli nicolivich (talk) 23:31, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


 * This is a gross violation of WP:NPOV, and I have no intention of continuing in this edit warring to exclude socially relevant information about the manufacture of the product - so I have to tag the article to reflect this. You cannot dismiss this by burying it in another article and removing text directly attributable to major national newspapers in this way. Mish (talk) 23:52, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I have now tagged this for NPOV check. Because of the way the text has been revised, the connection with the iPad in the original national UK sources has been removed.  Now three of the major UK national broadsheets, amongst other WP:RS have carried artcles about the iPad and its manufacture at the factory where the suicides have occured, linking iPad production to allegations about the way the plant operates as the cause of the suicides.  Thus, I see the recent removal of the material in an attempt to distance the product from its manufacture as a gross violation of neutrality in this article. Mish (talk) 00:09, 30 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I am coming here in response to the notice on the NPOV noticeboard. I read all of the discussion, most of the iterations of this story in the articles cited in this issue, and the proposed revision below.
 * User:MishMich is endorsing inclusion of a description of some suicides which various sources are connecting to manufacture of the iPad. I do not think that anyone is disputing that the sources are reliable or that they are presenting working conditions as a cause of the suicides.  User:Eraserhead1 has found a source stating the the suicide rate at the factory is lower than the general population, but I find this to be complimentary to the other articles and irrelevant to the fact that reliable sources are making the iPad/suicide connection.  User:Jiang has said that the issue is with the factory and not iPad; I would counter that some reliable sources are not presenting it that way.  User:AlistairMcMillan has said that WP:SOAP is happening; I think the issue to too fresh and that an opposing response is coming from other reliable sources, and it will not seem like SOAP when those are placed.  AM says that maybe this is an Apple issue; again, the sources are not presenting it that way.  AM says the sources are just "alleging' and this is not proven fact. This is so, and it should be reported on WP as such. Various users are saying this story is sensational and it is, and when reliable sources identify it as such then those ought to be included.
 * The proposed summary below is NPOV and accurately conveys what reliable sources have reported. I support its posting on the iPad page and if anyone wants to link to the section on the iPad page from the Apple page or Foxconn page then they should do so.
 * I also find the subject matter to be sensational, but this is what is being said about the iPad right now. Does anyone dispute the reliability of the sources or the summarization below? If not that, then what is the problem?  Blue Rasberry  02:34, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Uhm, aren't you guys making a bit of a leap from sources that talk about allegations of inhumane working conditions at the plant to explicitly saying "documented allegations of the inhumane working conditions involved in the manufacture of Apple's iPad"? AlistairMcMillan (talk) 15:43, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

And, please by all means correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Sun Danyong was the only Foxconn suicide to have actually been identified as working on the Apple lines. AlistairMcMillan (talk) 15:46, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe the sourcing is wrong, but I think its down to: http://www.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 15:56, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I think you are missing my point. Are the alleged inhumane conditions just related to iPad manufacture, or related to everything manufactured at the plant? We seem to be saying the former. AlistairMcMillan (talk) 16:00, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Whereas really its the latter - as well as the rest of the industry - who are mainly at fault here, maybe this content should by in Foxconn or even be in High tech manufacturing with a short summary here (or probably better on Apple Inc.). -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 16:08, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Exactly. The only reason the UK papers are focussing on the iPad is because it came out in the UK this weekend. I don't think I've seen anyone dispute this here. Most of the other companies whose products are manufactured at Foxconn have all come out with statements. We all know this, so why are we pretending this is an iPad only problem? AlistairMcMillan (talk) 19:03, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:NOTAFORUM It doesn't matter why, what is true, what matters is whether this featured significantly in WP:RS or not.  It did, and it focused on the iPad and Apple, and if you read the text it was also mentioned that this is not the only factory Apple use that has problems, and that the factory also produces for other brands.  This has been referred to the appropriate forum for discussing neutrality, etc.  I don't personally care what Apple's role was, or whether the reports in the media were fair or not; I have no views about Apple or the iPad one way or the other (I did have an iPod - great device - but it was nicked - and I have not used an Apple computer for over twenty years now - but liked it) what I do care about is that the policy and guidelines of this encyclopedia are followed - particularly when people try to curb what is allowed or not allowed in an article on the basis of arguments that bear no relation to those guidelines and policy.  If this were a WP:BLP, there might be some room to manoever - but it isn't. Given all the positive details about promotion and so on, a brief balanced rendition of negative reports like this does no harm, and is not WP:UNDUE in the context of the rest of the article.  This text needs to be left in, and removing it will not improve the article (or the encyclopedia).Mish (talk) 19:29, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but this really doesn't feel right. Where is the consensus? You are the only person who is 100% insisting this has to be here. Everyone else has doubts, and has suggested it belongs in either the Apple of Foxconn articles. I'm sorry but your claim that you don't have a personal stake in this doesn't ring true. AlistairMcMillan (talk) 20:23, 30 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, what I can do to assure you that I don't have a personal stake? I have already assured you that I do not work in any of the industries concerned (I have been doing a PhD in an unrelated area for several years now), that is not WP:AGF.  I could give more detail about my background in IT/telecomms, which would show that I have never had any association with Apple or any of its competitors - but I am concerned this would be misread as boasting or something, so what I am saying is to reassure you that I have had no connection with IT/telecomms for ten years, and am now a social scientist.  I do own a Nokia n900, but that would be more of a competitor to the iPhone than the iPad, and I got it because I got a very good deal.  I own several computers that run different operating systems - none of them Apple's - 3 incarnations of Windows, as well as Debian and Ubuntu; I'd like to have an Apple, so I could see what the operating system is like.  I did use the Apple database on one job, and I used their visual programming language on another, although I forget what they were called now.  To me these are just machines with operating systems that let you do stuff.  Beyond that, I don't know what to say to reassure you.  I have not suggested that people here might have a personal stake in keeping this out of the article, because that would breach WP:AGF.  Having worked on some pretty tricky articles in the past (try Violence against LGBT people), so I didn't expect the reaction here.  There is advice somewhere to try and edit articles one has no interest in - and I did that with locomotives for a while - then I bought the Independent last week, and that inspired me to make my first edit on a technology article (here); it seemed pretty uncontroversial to me at the time.  I do understand what you are saying about consensus, and that has made me wonder whether I have got this wrong - which is why I posted to the neutrality noticeboard, and the response seemed to agree that what I was doing was neutral.  You must know that consensus does not trump policy and guidelines, nor accuracy and reliability - and that the quality of argument is as important, and that can outweigh consensus.  If my argument is poor - fine.  But as yet I am unconvinced that articles that have headlines, text, and photographs about the iPad, around the time of its launch, that deal with the allegations of inhumane treatment of workers leading to suicides at the plant where iPads are made over the five months before the launch - and at least one going so far as alleging that the suicides are connected to the manufacture of the iPad - have nothing to do with the iPad.  I do not see that including this will be any barrier to the article achieving GA status.  TBH, I much prefer editing within my own project fields - Sexology and LGBT studies - so I wish this could be resolved so I can get back to working on articles there, as I never expected to spend nearly a week hanging around here when I made my first edit. Mish (talk) 23:15, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

section break for Morning Star

 * Can we lose the sourcing from the Daily Mail and Morning Star? Neither of them are reliable sources... -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 10:02, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Also the point "other media in the region" should be backed up with something from the Chinese, Taiwanese or Hong Kong media. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 10:16, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't have access to that, but other people may do and wish to do so. Or if nothing can be found it could be removed.
 * The Daily Mail is a grey area. While the Mail alone is not a WP:RS, it is being cited in conformity with other sources that are, so it would be legitimate to include it - however, I'm happy to lose it as we seem to have plenty of bullet-proof sources without it.  I would prefer the Morning Star stay, because we have the Financial Times there, and as the Morning Star is the official newspaper of the Communist Party of Great Britain, it is the main UK communist source to counterbalance the main UK capitalist source.  The Morning Star is not a national broadsheet, but is certainly more than just a tabloid like the Sun, and like the Mail is in that middle-ground in terms of reliability.  Given it is referenced in the context of material included in broadsheets, I am not sure why we would want to exclude the only British communist newspaper commenting on the iPad and its manufacturing conditions in factory in the only communist republic.  So, a compromise, we lose the Mail, but keep the Morning Star.Mish (talk) 11:02, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that the Morning Star is far left and isn't considered reliable. I've found the Taiwanese China Post raising concerns about the conditions. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 11:57, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Ditto with a China Daily piece. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 12:10, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The Communist Party is not the Socialist Workers Party, it is a minority Party in the UK, but one of the oldest and most respectable left-wing parties in the UK; The CP currently governs China and Cuba, and until relatively recently governed Russia and much of Eastern Europe (where it is still draws considerable support). If you are going to exclude the Morning Star (UK newspaper) on political grounds, then you would have to exclude historical references to Pravda, as well as contemporary state controlled newspapers in China.  Introducing a political restriction on media sources into the encyclopedia would be unprecedented, and a minefield.  I cannot believe that you are suggesting excluding a national newspaper on the basis of its political affiliation.  It is not listed in WP:RS/N as unreliable, but you are welcome to raise this there if you wish.  I think this is pretty trivial, as it is included to verify textual accuracy that is also sourced to broadsheets representing other political and capitalist interests. Mish (talk) 12:44, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * From WP:RS: Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or with no editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional in nature, or which rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources should only be used as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves. Questionable sources are generally unsuitable as a basis for citing contentious claims about third parties. - given that less than 3000 people voted for the Communist party in the last election they seem to have a pretty minority/extreme viewpoint to me. Besides by far the most respected left-wing party in the UK is the Green Party (if you're excluding the mainstream centre-left Liberal Democrats and Labour) who have councillors, and MP and MEP's. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 13:25, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, I will raise the question at WP:RS/N then - can we exclude a national newspaper because it is affiliated to the Communist Party in Britain. Mish (talk) 13:39, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * in the meantime, rather than perpetuating the stonewalling, I'd like to insert the modified text below.Mish (talk) 13:49, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 13:58, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Question about status of Morning Star lodged here: Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Mish (talk) 14:01, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Revised text of suicide controversy
On the eve of the UK release of the iPad in May 2010, The Independent carried a front page headline "A gadget to die for?", with a picture of an iPad next to a photo of a worker who had committed suicide at the plant where it was produced, followed by two reports on this over the next two pages. Subsequently, major national newspapers in the UK reported on documented allegations of the inhumane working conditions involved in the manufacture of Apple's iPad; these included The Telegraph, The Observer, a third article by The Independent, and other national newspapers, as well as newspapers in the region concerned. All three national newspapers and other sources reported how in the first five months of 2010 a series of nine or ten suicides (plus two suicide attempts that resulted in severe injuries, and twenty suicides that were averted) had taken place at Foxconn's factory complex in Shenzhen, China,, linking these to the manufacture of the iPad. Conditions at Foxconn are supposed to be better than other factories in China, and the rate of suicides at the factory complex is less than the overall suicide rate in China. The Independent reported documentation revealing "widespread failures" in most of the 102 supppliers to Apple; Apple expressed "upset" about the situation, and that they intend to investigate the conditions at the plant. Concerns have been expressed about working conditions at Foxconn specifically (which also manufactures other branded consumer goods), and in the electronics manufacturing industry as a whole - especially the long hours of overtime many workers were doing. Foxconn told the press that they have started to improve conditions at the factory by providing mental health staff for their workers as well as fitting nets around the buildings so that further suicide attempts are less likely to succeed.

References

Foxconn suicides removed
As gross breach of WP:SYNTH and WP:UNDUE. If there is a source which specifically attributes the suicides to the iPad production, a sentence or two with a main link is fine, but this article is about the product, going into a diatribe on chinese suicide rates is completely off-topic. The sources only stated that the factory builds iPads and the only confirmed suicide due to an apple product is the one who lost an iPhone prototype. -- Terrillja talk  20:44, 30 May 2010 (UTC)


 * This is all accurately sourced to UK national newspapers, and when these reports were about the manufacturing conditions of the iPad, it is hardly WP:SYNTH, and in relation to the rest of the article not WP:UNDUE. It has been posted for WP:POV-check already.  I am restoring this text, and if you want to work the text in a way that keeps the focus on the allegations about the role the iPad plays in this, and hive the text about Foxconn, then fine - but if this is removed again I will be notifying that there is an edit-war going on here to eliminate WP-RS backed material and notify Mish (talk) 21:18, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm reconsidering and I suggest that it is reduced to 3-4 sentences and is moved to the Apple Inc article where it is more suitable. The connection with the iPad still seems to be pretty dubious. The rest of the content can be included in the Foxconn article with a main link from the Apple Inc article. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 23:06, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * PS I've asked User:Bluerasberry to re-comment here. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 23:25, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Let me start by saying that my interpretation is that reliable sources connect iPad manufacture and worker suicide. I am not seeing the WP:SYNTH problem which User:Terrillja sees.  I am seeing an WP:UNDUE problem because the length of the Suicides at Foxconn section is longer than almost any other section in this article.  I agree that the connection with the iPad is dubious but public consciousness as expressed through the publications of many reliable sources manifested as stated concern that iPad manufacturing employees were driven to suicide by work pressure; the record of this idea goes in the iPad article.  See WP:TRUTH.
 * User:Eraserhead1 suggests summarizing here with a link to full content elsewhere. I am not sure where the full account goes.  The length of the present description of the suicides in the Apple Inc. article would be UNDUE there also.  While the Foxconn article already has lengthy reports of suicide, ultimately something will need to change there because there is so much criticism one might think they were in the business of incarcerating  and pestering workers. I do not want to make that article a dumping ground just because it is not well maintained.
 * In addition to what user:MishMich has written here, there is a lot more sourced data here and I think most of this is not overlapping.  This is an event that is going to have a follow up; it may merit its own article with Mish's content here as a lede, the content on the Foxconn page as a detailed description, the response and follow up from Apple and Fox as a future section, and then  or whatever kind of links from iPad, Apple Inc, Foxconn, and perhaps various workers rights articles to this article.
 * Who disagrees with my rationale about the length being UNDUE here? I propose preservation of this content by integration into a more suitable article, and if no such article already exists, then it should have its own article. What other options are there?  Blue Rasberry  00:27, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but where are the actual sources that have stated that "iPad manufacturing employees were driven to suicide by work pressure"? I asked this earlier, but as far as I'm aware the only suicide that was actually linked to Apple products, was Sun Danyong who lost an iPhone prototype. AlistairMcMillan (talk) 01:46, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Exactly what I was saying. The sources say that the company that manufactures iPads has had a number of suicides. Not that the people who worked on iPads or even those that worked on Apple products at all have committed suicides. To take a link between the manufacturer and a single product is clearly synthesis without a reliable source to support it that says something to the extent of "iPad workers have been committing suicide".-- Terrillja talk  03:53, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

AM, Terrillja, I made a claim of causation when there is not actually such a claim in the debated text. Regardless of whether any sources claim causation, I think the sources make a correlation, and I think that is enough for notability on Wikipedia. Forget about why the people committed suicide and tell me whether you see reliable sources making a connection between the production of iPad units and suicides. The below are representative examples.

...the company's sprawling electronics facility, where 300,000 employees work making the iPhone and iPad, plus products for Nokia, Sony, HP and Dell. It was part of a scramble to restore public faith in their embattled firm after a series of 11 suicide attempts, nine successful.

A spate of recent suicides at Foxconn has highlighted the concerns over working conditions inside the giant Longhua factory, where 300,000 workers assemble goods for clients including Apple, Sony, Nintendo, Dell and Nokia. The deaths comes as Apple prepares to launch the iPad in the UK at the end of this week.

If you do not interpret the articles as making a connection between the suicides and the iPad production, can you say something about what made the issue notable to the newspapers? I agree that this is a low suicide rate compared to the general population, so why was this not WP:MILL to the publishers? What alternate way is there to interpret this information?  Blue Rasberry  04:48, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Hello, my two cents. I think the newspapers mentioned the iPad because of its novelty and popular buzz, more than any intended correlation. The iPad is a hot topic right now and mentioning it in an article can get more readers. Loves  Macs  (talk) 05:06, 31 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It doesn't matter why the newspapers made this connection, what matters is that they did, and this is what is being included - not why they made the connection, not whether they were right to do so. The extent of the text is only the way it is because of the work put in by a few editors to neutralise the coverage of the reportage, and make this more about Foxconn that the iPad.  Foxconn is not in the headline or the first paragaraph of the key UK newspaper pieces - it is iPad.  It is not a picture of the Apple logo, or a factory on the front page of last Thursday's Independent - it is an iPad.  This is the text that follows on the next page, first paragraph:


 * THE AMERICAN electronics giant Apple was investigating damaging allegations last night that Chinese workers making its new iPad device were subjected to such "inhumane" treatment that some of them took their own lives by jumping off factory roofs.
 * That is the only fact we need to be concerned with, as what counts is that we are accurate, that what we write can be verified, and it comes from a reliable source. It ticks all the boxes. Mish (talk) 06:20, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

I can appereciate that the information about Foxconn could be seen as inappropriate here, but that my original edit focused on the media reports that were clearly connected on the iPad, but through revisions of editors to trying to neutralise this, sources focusing on Foxconn were added. I'd suggest going back to before the irrelevant information about Foxconn was inserted, and focus on the relevant coverage that was about the iPad: Mish (talk) 07:17, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Two issues with this: 1) What you are saying is we should ignore the sources that don't focus on the iPad and only focus on the ones that put the iPad front and centre? Don't we have some policy against picking and choosing sources that just support you're own stance and deliberately ignoring the ones that don't? 2) Some sources talk about the suicides and focus on the fact that Apple has products manufactured at Foxconn. Some sources focus on the fact that Microsoft has products manufactured at Foxconn. Some sources focus on the fact that Nokia has products manufactured at Foxconn. So on and so forth. So do we add sections about the Foxconn suicides to all the relevant articles, or just this one? Do we add a Foxconn suicides section to all the articles about products manufactured at Foxconn? Or given that this is primarily a Foxconn issue and secondarily an issue for the companies that outsource their manufacturing to Foxconn, does it not actually belong in the Foxconn and other companies articles (with the iPhone being the one possible exception given that the only suicide directly linked to a particular product line was linked to the iPhone)? AlistairMcMillan (talk) 12:41, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * What about my new version at the bottom of the page? -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 12:56, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * None of the workers has been identified as having anything to do with the iPad. We all know the only reason the Independent covered the story in this way is because the iPad was being released that weekend, and the iPad was being covered extensively that weekend. I'm sorry but until there is an actual connection between iPad manufacture and the suicides I don't think it belongs here. AlistairMcMillan (talk) 15:08, 31 May 2010 (UTC)


 * This is why I am keen to focus on the sources that focus on the iPad in relation to the Foxconn suicides & allegations of inhumane practices: this is a page about the iPad, and if a UK national broadsheet carries a front page with a picture of an iPad, that is signifcant and notable. When this happens in the context of other newspapers covering the story from the same 'angle' (the 'iPad'), this is also significant for this article.  The Foxconn controversy per se is not, unless the iPad features significantly.  We should not assume that our readers cannot follow the links and read this for themselves, and come to their own conclusions.  The problem with material that does not feature "iPad" prominently in the text is that it is synthesis to include it. Mish (talk) 08:07, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

This just gets more fucking surreal the longer it goes on. So we can link the iPad to the suicides, even though NO-ONE has actually said any of the suicides were by people manufacturing iPads. However you don't think we should mention Foxconn, even though these people committed suicide at the Foxconn planet, while employed by Foxconn and allegedly in direct response to their treatment by Foxconn??? Are you so blinded by your desperation to have this mentioned in the iPad article that you lost your basic common sense? AlistairMcMillan (talk) 17:26, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I have quoted this before, but you seem to ignore it: "The American electronics giant Apple was investigating damaging allegations last night that Chinese workers making its new iPad device were subjected to such "inhumane" treatment that some of them took their own lives by jumping off factory roofs." Of course you can link to the Foxconn article and develop this further there - the text does mention that they work at Foxconn.  I have no issues about including informations, but whenever somebody else tries to add that information from sources that do not discuss the iPad and the allegations about its production, somebody else deletes the text, arguing it is WP:UNDUE and/or WP:SYNTH.  So, it seems better keeping it focused on the reporting on the allegations directed at the manufacture of the iPad in reliable sources, accurately.


 * Your post is uncivil, insulting and profane. There is no need for that.  I guess having worked in IT & Telecomms for many years, in three countries, and having been educated to PhD level, including an MSc in IT, as well as Business Administration, my common sense differs from yours.  It doesn't matter though, because the encyclopedia accommodates this, and common sense, like truth, (or what we know to be 'right') is not the arbiter of what is included in an article - it is accuracy, reliablity and verifiablity that are the cornerstones of neutral editing. Mish (talk) 19:56, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Whether or not you hold a piece of paper has no relevance to anything at all here. And by insinuating that you have a more educated idea of common sense, you are again violating WP:CIVIL. Which you have been warned about a number of times now. FWIW, two (2) admins have now told you that your edits were off-base. Maybe you should rethink your position and check your ego at the door.-- Terrillja talk  20:04, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


 * That was not my point, it was in response to the profanity and abuse directed at me, a response that did not respond with like, and it was to Alastair. However, I have stricken it out if it offends you.  BTW, Apple seem to think the media reports are about the iPad as well. Mish (talk) 20:46, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

One sentence in one source links the iPad to the suicides. But the article doesn't go into specifics. It doesn't mention any names. It doesn't mention any numbers; was it one person, two, five, ten? It doesn't in fact mention the idea that people assembling the iPad are involved with the suicides in any way again in the article at all. One sentence in the intro. Didn't someone suggest that the two were being linked for sensationalist reasons earlier?

And it is the ONLY source that links them at all. EVERY other sources says suicides happened at the plant where the iPad is manufactured but doesn't suggest iPad workers have attempted suicide. So this section belongs in this article because of this one sentence in this one source. Am I right? Have I missed something? Are there other sources that explicitly link the two? AlistairMcMillan (talk) 21:11, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * At worst its context for Apple's profit sharing with Foxconn's iPad workers, its only a sentence. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 21:19, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

And I'm sorry about the fucking swearing but I'm fucking sick of Wikipedia content being controlled by those who can shout longest and hardest. And that is exactly what is fucking happening here. AlistairMcMillan (talk) 21:21, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I understand your frustration, but I think it is misplaced. It is such a small bit of text - and from the sound of it, Jobs & Co. are upset about it, and I am sure they had no idea what was going on; and he certainly seems intent on getting to the bottom of it to make sure something is done about this, and is giving the workers who make the iPad a bonus.  I have explained why this is relevant, several times. Mish (talk) 22:11, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Hey, if it is such a small bit of text, and so not a big deal, then you won't mind if it is removed then? And how about answering my previous question. Aside from that one sentence in the Independent (which article doesn't expand at all on the suggestion that iPad workers are committing suicide) is there anything else that suggests iPad workers are committing suicide? Or is this whole debate based solely on that one sentence in the Independent? AlistairMcMillan (talk) 23:19, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I said it is a small bit of text, not that it is not a big deal. It clearly is a big deal if a national newspaper features it on the front page, and devotes two more pages of analysis to it, and this is also taken up by other national newspapers.  It is not just 'one sentence' - it is the whole of the front page, it is the headline of the article, the first paragraph of the article.  That is the beginning of the article - the rest of the article deals with the specifics.  The allegation is laid out clearly at the beginning, and then the article goes into this in depth.  There is a distinction that is made, and this is covered in Jobs/Apple's responses - that the factory is responsible - and there is (as yet) no refutation of the allegation that has been made.  Clearly the allegation is being taken seriously, because of the response to it.  The response is an investigation is into the plant's working practices - not a complaint to the Press Complaints Commission. Mish (talk) 23:35, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

UK launch and media coverage
On the eve of the UK release of the iPad in May 2010, The Independent carried a front page headline "A gadget to die for?", with a picture of an iPad next to a photo of a worker who had committed suicide at the plant where it was produced, followed by two reports on this over the next two pages: "The American electronics giant Apple was investigating damaging allegations last night that Chinese workers making its new iPad device were subjected to such 'inhumane' treatment that some of them took their own lives by jumping off factory roofs." Other major national broadhseets in the UK carried similar reports focusing on the iPad and Apple's relationship with Foxconn and other Chinese factories, and Foxconn's relationship with other branded products; these included The Telegraph, The Observer, a third article by The Independent, as well as other national newspapers.

References

Although the picture and headline in Thursday's Independent is not available on the online edition, I can take a picture of the newspaper and load that up to Wikimedia, and link to that from here if you would like. This is not sensationalist reporting - these are 3 out of the top 4 major UK national newspapers, and represent Right, Centre and Left-wing media coverage. Mish (talk) 07:17, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Further discussion about media coverage of iPad & launch in UK
This could be balanced with positive coverage in the media, e.g.:

The Daily Mail BBC BBC Independent Guardian Times Tech Eye Guardian Telegraph

UK launch coverage part 2
So its not in quite such a big section I've created a new one. To create content which is balanced and doesn't have undue weight what about the following?

The Worldwide launch
Media reaction to the Worldwide launch was mixed. There were comments on the thousands of people queuing for the new device. They also praised the number of applications available, the book store and other media applications. In contrast the iPad was also criticised for being a closed system as well as criticisms of the higher price in the UK. The launch was marred by worldwide media coverage of a series of around a dozen suicides occurring this year at the manufacturer Foxconn's complex in Shenzhen, China. Apple and the other manufacturers who use the plant are investigating.

Comment
This works quite well, however, I do think that it needs to be clear that on the Eve of the UK launch there was significant mainstream press coverage of the iPad (as a product) in particular, and Apple (as one brand amongst several) as a company and their connection with the Foxconn controversy. I say this, because this featured on the front page of one major UK broadhseet, and was covered in two other broadsheets, as well as other national and regional newspapers last week. It is notable, and I know of no other product that has been singled out for attention this way before - granted this coincides with the hype surrounding the launch, however, that is the nature of that style of marketing - and it is important that the context is clear (which you have managed to a considerable extent. I would prefer that rather than a single reference to the Independent, at least the main article on that day, the articles/editorials in the Telegraph and Observer were included, as well as the follow-up piece in the Indepndent.  The other sources I am less concerned about, as they were inserted primarily to demonstrate that this was not isolated coverage.  We do have a responsibility to our readers here, not to Apple, to ensure that they are not misled on this through our ommission.

I also think, when more information becomes available, that we need to say more about the criticism of limiting the access to information available via the iPad, as indicated in the Tech Eye article.Mish (talk) 13:35, 31 May 2010 (UTC)


 * About your last comment, you do understand they are talking about the App Store and not the actual iPad right? Where the subject is already covered. App Store AlistairMcMillan (talk) 14:59, 31 May 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, I thought when they said "the handling of applications for iPad and iPhone" they were talking about the iPad. I misunderstood that when journalists talk about the iPad, they are actually talking about the plant where it is produced, the company that markets it, the applications that run on it, or the store where you can buy content.  If there is in an article on iStore, and we have a link to that article, I guess that should be all that is needed.  I am not really interested in Apple and their world, but am interested in this encyclopedia; I wouldn't know anything about Apple's techniques for marketing and locking in iPad users into content they sell and approve of.  I only came here because I wanted to put something in from last Thursday's Independent - I'm only still here because people seem to want to prevent legitimate information going into this page - I'll stay until this page starts taking seriously the principles expected in this encyclopedia. Mish (talk) 15:46, 31 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for insulting everyone who has already worked on this article. Where would all these yahoos be without your help. AlistairMcMillan (talk) 16:09, 31 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I didn't insult everybody who has worked on this article. This is not the first time you have misrepresented what I have said, and that is not civil.  I am talking about this specific incident - not the rest of the article.  I am concerned about the way some have sought to exclude legitimate information from national newspapers in this article.  Stick to that, rather than attacking me.  An article can be very good, but if it glosses over something significant, then that does not improve the article.  Deal with it - make it better.  I understand that it may be easier to impugn me (or my motives) than deal what I have said, and you are not alone in that, but it will not help the situation.  Stick to the argument, rather than trying to distract the discussion and making this about me rather than reliable sources and what they have said.Mish (talk) 16:44, 31 May 2010 (UTC)


 * And it isn't the first time that you have misrepresented what sources have said. Call it a draw.-- Terrillja talk  16:50, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

✅ Its in the article. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 17:44, 31 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that, ER, I feel there needs to be more, and perhaps further detail in the Foxconn article will suffice, if there is a link there. I changed "marred", as that is not a neutral term, and I don't recall the reports saying their reporting marred the launch.
 * Fine. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 19:57, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * TR - what I have tried to insert is accurate and verifiable in the sources I cited, was not synthesis, and not original research - as is made clear in the quote I placed above. Mish (talk) 18:26, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Can the neutrality tag be removed now? -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 20:47, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I am not going to use it to hold people to ransom, although I'd prefer it if it was given more weight, and more of the UK sources on this were included - but TBH, I have better things to do and don't want to spend more time on this. So, sure - but I'd appreciate you keeping an eye on it to make sure it doesn't get removed again. Mish (talk) 21:06, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair enough :), I will make sure it doesn't get removed. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 21:09, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No, actually, it's quite good - concise, to the point (although I still want more, obviously, because I am more interested in human rights than computing equipment). I think the title of the section needs something doing with it - 'non-US launch', sounds a bit like 'rest of the world', and comes across as Americano-centric.  I don't know the extent of the launch - would 'European launch' cover it?  Or 'World launch'?  All I heard about was the launch here in the UK. Mish (talk) 21:28, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Well it was also released in Japan and Australia and the larger EU countries, I don't know the best wording to use to describe it. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 21:32, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Canada as well, apparently. The Guardian referred to it as the "International launch"  back in April. Mish (talk) 22:40, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Despite detailed discussion here, one user is persisting in edit warring to keep WP:RS material from the UK out of this article, WP:HARASS on user's home page, and WP:PERSONAL on this discussion. I am issuing a warning on their talk page, and will then revert the material here. Mish (talk) 06:53, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It had valid remarks from UK sources on the reception (could use a more worldly view, but that is neither here nor there) and then went into a diatribe on foxconn with no connection to the reception whatsoever. I removed it because the content simply didn't make sense there. No one jumped off a building because the UK got the iPad, which is what the section would lead readers to believe. And as for WP:PERSONAL, you called my edits daft and made a comment about how I should "grow up". Right.-- Terrillja talk  07:02, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Terrillja why did you removed this content? There's enough of a connection to justify a single sentence when the connection was made by the media worldwide, and thats definitely along the lines of what BlueRasberry suggested as the dispute resoluter. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 07:34, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I removed it because as written there was no connection at all to the international launch. There were uk reviews, then "meanwhile," there were some stories about suicides. Nothing related to the launch other than putting the articles out on the same day as the launch with "iPad" in the title and nothing in the text of the article here to connect the two. It made it sound like foxconn workers decided to jump off buildings because the UK got the iPad. Completely illogical. And bluraseberry is an editor, not WP:MEDCAB or WP:ARBCOM. On the other hand, Alstair is an admin. So no one's weight holds more than another's. Unless they are violating policies.-- Terrillja talk  07:56, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * "Concern over human cost overshadows iPad launch" - "The American electronics giant Apple was investigating damaging allegations last night that Chinese workers making its new iPad device were subjected to such 'inhumane' treatment that some of them took their own lives by jumping off factory roofs." It is all there in the headline and first sentence.Mish (talk) 08:24, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Quite, there is no need for lots of content on this, but it does deserve coverage. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 20:22, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, but it has nothing to do with the international launch of the product other than the articles being published on the same day as the launch, its current placement in the article makes absolutely no sense.-- Terrillja talk  20:32, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It makes that clear, if it doesn't go with the content on the worldwide launch it will need its own section - or it could go at the top of the reception section. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 20:41, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Apple to give iPad workers a raise
I am not sure about the quality of these sources, but it appears that following the reports, and concerns raised by Apple (as well as Sony and Nokia), Foxconn has given their workers a raise. Apple has also announced that in addition to this, those who work on the production of the iPad will receive 0.7% of the profit from sales. I have inserted the text with one source, but there are several others here:. Whatever the 'truth' behind the allegations about the conditions of the iPad workers, it seems Apple have taken them seriously enough to act on this. Mish (talk) 11:29, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


 * What is an "iPad worker"? These are Foxconn workers, not iPad workers. The media just avoids using the name Foxconn because it has much less name recognition than Apple or iPad. There is nothing to suggest that the workers were specifically assigned to work on the iPad, but that they worked at the same 400,000 person factory that produces the iPad. This is irrelevant: add it to the Foxconn article, and add some text to the Apple article stating that most of its products are made by Foxconn (the current article mentions the suicides without making the link). If the information were relevant here, then perhaps you should copy and past the identical text to iPhone, iPod, Wii Amazon Kindle, Playstation, and everything else Foxconn manufactures on behalf of other companies. What little sense would this make! --Jiang (talk) 16:46, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


 * If you read the source, you will see that it is the workers who produce the iPad that get a share in the profits from the sale of iPads, not other Foxconn workers. Apparently, that'd be the same workers that get stools to sit on.Mish (talk) 19:38, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * That definitely sounds like relevant content, I don't see why Apple would give a cut of iPad profits to employees making other products. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 20:19, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

iTampon section
This has been removed twice, I'm inclined to say it should stay as it was relevant at the time of the launch and its something that isn't totally positive about the product and there have been a lot of criticisms along those lines. I don't feel that strongly though. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 21:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Doesn't look that relevant to me. What it looks like is a whole lotta undue weight.  A section dedicated to a specific area like that isn't warranted.  Maybe a line, but that's it.—  Dæ  dαlus Contribs 00:24, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It was only a couple of sentences before, 'section' I guess was the wrong word to use. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 21:53, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 86.150.215.45, 5 June 2010
Comment with citation number 83 is incorrect All iTunes content can be purchased directly from within the iTunes app without the need ever to use a computer

Please correct this point

86.150.215.45 (talk) 01:08, 5 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Do you have a source or do you know of any of the other sources in the list? mechamind  9  0  01:28, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Right now, we have to go by the source given, unless a better one can replace it.  — fetch ·  comms   01:46, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Opening sentence POV problems
The opening sentence has problems."The iPad is a tablet computer designed and marketed by Apple for Internet browsing, media consumption, gaming, and light content creation.". It is unsourced, unclear, and potentially biased, particularly the last entry, 'light content creation'. The "content" being "created" is never defined, nor it's "light" nature.theBOBbobato (talk) 18:04, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Apple's iPad features page mentions all of these uses, but not in those exact words. Would you like to reword the opening sentence, using that page as a source, or trim it down to "The iPad is a tablet computer designed and marketed by Apple."? I think the second option is the most neutral but least descriptive choice. Loves  Macs  (talk) 23:47, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Why don't we remove the "light content creation"? Its less of an important feature than the others. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 23:59, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Fine, but should "and other uses" should be added? Or is that obvious? The App store plays a large role in iPad marketing even though apps are not exclusive to iPads. Loves  Macs  (talk) 00:17, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I haven't watched it, but didn't Jobs devote a significant portion of the iPad announcement to the ported version of Pages and Keynote? Doesn't that justify "light content creation" or perhaps "content creation"? AlistairMcMillan (talk) 01:47, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah but multiple sources aren't particularly pleased with them, so I don't know if it is justified. I think 'and other uses' is probably obvious. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 11:50, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Multiple sources might not be happy with the iPad versions of Pages and Keynote, but does that change the fact that Apple "designed and marketed" the device for "light content creation"? AlistairMcMillan (talk) 15:09, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Not even, since "content" does not exclusively mean text documents and spreadsheets. I think it would be best if the article did not try to list everything the iPad is "designed" to do. It is only designed to be a general computing device, and is not necessarily limited to gaming, browsing, consumption, or light content creation. Even though the passage only reads that the iPad is "designed and marketed" for all that, it's context implies that there's nothing else it could do.theBOBbobato (talk) 01:34, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Since there has been no response to the last entry, I have gone ahead and edited the opening sentence.theBOBbobato (talk) 18:31, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Fine by me. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 18:35, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Vortic, 9 June 2010
The article should not read, "it established a new class of devices between smartphones and laptops" as it hasn't, and this is simply untrue.

Vortic (talk) 19:10, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sympathetic, but its sourced I'm afraid. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 19:40, 9 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The sourcing is good, but I think Vortic has a point -- whether the iPad constitutes "a new class of devices between smartphones and laptops" is a highly subjective statement. It should be more carefully worded and probably doesn't belong in the lead.  The two sources could be quoted explicitly in the "Reviews" section instead.  Other opinions? Tim Pierce (talk) 20:03, 9 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Let's move it to reviews section. Spigot  Map  20:04, 9 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd be cool with that, at least it wouldn't be in the opening. - Vortic :)
 * Concur with the move and subjective point. C T J F 8 3  pride 20:25, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Moved, but I'm sure it could do with further improvements. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 20:30, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Section on Leo Laporte
Per the Good article review Leo Laporte's iPad announcement stuff isn't reliably sourced so I've removed it from the article. If a good source can be found can it be readded? For prosterity the content is below: -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 11:53, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Leo Leporte section
Tech reporter Leo Laporte offered a mixed initial review, praising the iPad's speed but panning the lack of a camera, video output, USB-A and FireWire ports, and the inability to run multiple applications at the same time, specifically the inability to run a chat application along with other applications. He also mentioned the device's "locked down", closed nature, noting that some at the announcement protested Apple's "full control" of the software. He concluded that the iPad should be viewed as an "appliance" for media consumers, not really a computer in the traditional sense.

Foxconn suicide controversy
Per the Good Article review its been requested that the Foxconn stuff is removed from this article (apart from the bonus stuff), is it OK to move it to Apple Inc.? Thanks. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 17:16, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ Moved. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 21:53, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 98.114.128.183, 16 June 2010
I was thinking maybe we should add a small section in the article about iPad accessories (mainly the official Apple ones). Like the case, keyboards, 2 projector cable.... Not a lot of detail but just saying a bit about them with links to the appropriate sites.

98.114.128.183 (talk) 02:58, 16 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Sounds a bit too much like advertising to me, sorry.
 * Avic enna sis tb? @ 04:23, 4 Tamuz 5770 / 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't agree, I didn't mean it to make it sound like advertising, just a brief sentence or too telling about the case and .... There isn't another wiki article about it, like On DATE Apple Inc. also started selling a case for the iPad. This was one the first times Apple Inc. has released an optional case to go with the iPad. Apple Inc. released it in two versions a bigger vers...... , Sorry --Photoguy2801 (talk) 16:15, 16 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Photoguy2801 (talk • contribs) 16:12, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Note that there was already a section on that before this was asked. Airplaneman   ✈  04:37, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Porn on the iPad
I suggest to include the Porn Debate. This is not necessarily an App Store issue, since Steve Jobs expicitly stated that the iPad should remain porn-free. And the reactions are also iPad specific. The discussion between blogger Ryan Tate from Gawker and Steve Jobs led to an ad-busting in Berlin and continued in similar manner to public space in San Fransico during WWD10. Leonidas84 (talk) 14:13, 20 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I've no objections as long as its kept brief. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 14:22, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
 * As a web browser it's as porn-free as a DVD player, but do we have any links showing a porn-flash connection whereby lots of porn movie sites use the flash format? Hcobb (talk) 17:33, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually there are many links for this connection. I suggest to do it like this:
 * An e-mail exchange between blogger Ryan Tate from Valleywag and Steve Jobs led to a public debate about porn on the iPad. Initially Tate had been upset by the iPad commercial, calling the device a “revolution.” For Tate revolutions were about freedom and Jobs responded that the iPad indeed offered freedom. Especially "freedom from porn" led to many upset replies, for example an ad-busting in Berlin by artist Johannes P. Osterhoff and continued in similar manner to public space in San Fransico during WWDC10. But porn remains locked from the App Store only. YouPorn is only one company that changed their video format from Flash to H.264 and HTML5 specifically for the iPad.  Leonidas84 (talk) 17:08, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Well be WP:BOLD and add it to the article then :). -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 17:53, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Or don't, as is is hugely WP:UNDUE undue weight and speculation based on unreliable sources.-- Terrillja talk  18:08, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm presuming it will be kept to a couple of sentences or so. And not all of the sources are unreliable. TechCrunch and CNet are both reliable. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 19:00, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The proposed text above is not a few sentences, and the more "controversial" or "questionable" bits are sourced to blogs.-- Terrillja talk  19:04, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair point. I change my mind - it'll need further cleanup before addition and it will also need to be shrunk in size. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 19:10, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I made it shorter (60%) and cleaned it up:
 * Due to the exclusion of porn from the App Store, YouPorn and others changed their video format from Flash to H.264 and HTML5 specifically for the iPad.[5][6] In an e-mail exchange[1] with Ryan Tate from Valleywag Steve Jobs claimed the iPad to offer "freedom from porn" what led to many upset replies including ad-bustings in Berlin by artist Johannes P. Osterhoff[2][3] and in San Fransico during WWDC10.[4] Leonidas84 (talk) 16:18, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't think [2] and [6] are reliable, but there are other sources, so that looks fine to me. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 22:28, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ Okay, I am WP:BOLD then :) Leonidas84 (talk) 08:49, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

"paper doesn't require batteries"?
And I breathe oxygen. :) But the above comment, recently included in the international reception section, couldn't be any less insightful of a critique of the device. Are we really including pre-electricty luddite criticism of a computer? Just doesn't seem relevant. IMO, it should be taken out. What do you think? —ArtsMusicFilm (talk) 19:50, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
 * As I originally added it I've been bold and removed it. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 21:37, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
 * No offense intended, EH. I was just feeilin a little ornery when I wrote that. Sorry for coming on so strong. :) —ArtsMusicFilm (talk) 01:57, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * No worries, it seems a fair enough complaint to me. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 17:44, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

New image for the infobox
The image was criticised in the Good article review for the Infobox image. Does anyone have any thoughts on this ? I'd crop it to remove the words to the left. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 21:08, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It uses Apple's copyrighted icons and UI, so it would be a fair use image being used in the infobox. Thus, I would not use that image.-- Terrillja talk  23:59, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Holy moley, I thought someone had just uploaded an Apple ad to Flickr, but that's an independent rendering! Well, the screen poses issues, but there is a precedent. If you do get an image from Apple, it needs to be directly from Apple's PR site. They have image usage agreements which Wikipedia meets, but (shh) not reusers. (But even the current fair use image would have the same restrictions.) Even for reusers, there are mirrors (for which the agreement is still valid, unless there's an issue with transference), and people who just want the image, and we can direct them to Apple. Copyright enforcement is often done piecemeal around here; someone will delete an image from the infobox of a main article but not look through the rest, or its daughters, or categories. You will work hard to get a good image, and either an admin will delete it or Apple will release a new model. Such is life. Got a copyright issue? Hang on, let me read the appropriate policy. HereToHelp (talk to me) 03:41, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

iPad is a tablet computer yet the iPod Touch is not
For the most part the iPad is just a gigantic iPod Touch. Can someone please explain why the iPod Touch article describes the Touch as a "portable media player, personal digital assistant, and Wi-Fi mobile platform designed and marketed by Apple Inc." while the iPad is described as a "a tablet computer designed and developed by Apple."? I'm just saying there needs to be some sort of conformity here. There are a lot of arguments as to whether or not the iPad is truly a full fledged computer than a portable media player but i'm not going to get into that. Tall Midget (talk) 05:23, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Well for one, the iPod touch is marketed for music and gaming, the iPad is marketed as a multifunction device and the media have picked up on its use as an all-in one computer (thinking of the story about the great grandmother getting her first computer, which is an iPad).-- Terrillja talk  05:38, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with Tall Midget: the iPad and iPod Touch articles should both say that they are merely computers, without going into specifics. Unless hardware, software, or legal difficulties actually limit a device's capabilities to only a few tasks, it cannot be said or implied that that device can only be used for them. Both the iPad and iPhone have theoretically the same computing potential as a Mac or Windows machine (besides disk drives or file systems).theBOBbobato (talk) 07:12, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

...sensitive to fingertip contact with up to eleven fingers...
This was mentioned in New Scientist - it does read very strangely. Apepper (talk) 13:50, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The eleven fingers do not have to belong to the same person. What is actually is meant is that the touch screen hardware can detect up to eleven touch points. Mahjongg (talk) 21:33, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

iPad vs glorified PDA
''From my talk page. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 21:36, 20 July 2010 (UTC)''

I point to towards public comments made by the director of Samsung Australia’s IT division http://apcmag.com/samsung-the-ipad-is-a-glorified-mid.htm, and Tom's Hardware review http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ipad-iphone-a4-arm-cortex,10089.html The iPad has been stated by many as being nothing more than a larger, more expensive iPhone. And for Steve Jobs to say that the "iPad is something completely new", well... I had a PDA back in '95 with touch screen and modular layout, and have set up many more with simple touch and use skins for the last 10 years or so. I do not consider describing the iPad as a glorified PDA as a personal opinion, more of a general consensus between those that are sick of over-exaggeration from the so-called innovaters in the field (Apple, Microsoft, Google, for just a few examples). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kendroche (talk • contribs) 21:28, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Samsung are clearly going to be bias, and its clear APCMag are just repeating what they are saying. And TomsHardware don't say the iPad is a glorified PDA. If you can bring two reliable sources to the table explicitly calling the iPad a PDA or something similar, then I think it can be included in the article - otherwise its too controversial to be included IMO. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 21:36, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, its obvious a competitor with a competitive design is biased against his competitors design, and most "PC"-mags are heavily "windows centric", their bias often just drips from the pages. Actually almost the only magazine that has the cloud (and lack of bias) that once Byte magazine had (before it also went the way of the dodo ( after going the "PC-mags" way ) nowadays is c't-magazine, unfortunately its in German (and Dutch), so not that accessible for most readers here, fortunately I can read both languages. By the way, I very much respects "Toms hardware". Mahjongg (talk) 22:27, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

The line between PC and PDA is very easy to draw. PCs have a Von Neumann architecture in a shared file space so that one program can write a file that is itself another program by itself. I.e. the PC is a development platform for itself. PDAs are not development platforms for themselves and can only share data externally instead of between arbitrary programs internally. Hcobb (talk) 23:21, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That's not really clear from the article. To take the example there you can use the iPad as a word processor or game console without re-wiring the hardware in the device. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 19:51, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, and saying that the (CPU of the) iPad doesn't use a von neumann architecture is actually untrue and an absurd claim. The term "von neuman architecture" is only used for CPU's, not for complete systems in the way that Hcobb does. What he is saying is that you cannot use an iPad to develop iPad software. It might be true at the moment that this isn't done at the moment, but actually there is no theoretical reason why this cannot be done. Mahjongg (talk) 00:34, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * That's an interesting definition of a PC. However, PCs don't need to use a Von Neumann architecture, so I'm not sure that using this as the basis for the distinction really works, and the ARM CPU uses a modified Harvard architecture, so it can move instructions around per the Von Neumann approach. - Bilby (talk) 01:48, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Content Inaccuracy/Confusion
As regards "The iPad runs the same operating system as the previously introduced iPod Touch and iPhone,[14] although as of summer 2010, it was a version behind:".

It's not summer for another 5 months! How can it be a version behind as of summer 2010, or does this refer to the start of the year (Jan/Feb 2010 as opposed to Dec 2010)? If it was Winter 2010 (June-August) I could understand but this is confusing and/or quite inaccurate. Some tweaking required!203.25.1.208 (talk) :) —Preceding undated comment added 06:03, 23 July 2010 (UTC).
 * Good point. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 06:52, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * In the Northern Hemisphere- where I'm assuming most editors live- July is the height of Summer. It would be better if the statement was dated by months, rather than seasons, to avoid this confusion.theBOBbobato (talk) 07:17, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

iPad and LCARS (PADD)
Hmmmm, I wonder if the writer of the Arstechnica article "How Star Trek artists imagined the iPad... 23 years ago" has read my comments about the iPad resembling the LCARS computing systems on the Enterprise here (archive #2). and here ? I think that many star trek fans have seen the resemblance. Mahjongg (talk) 14:09, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * That's probably worthy of a sentence or two in the article. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 17:32, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Or not. The connection is tenuous at best. A pad of paper has been called such for quite a while, it isn't surprising that both would try to make a name that mimics that. Other than both trying to mimic the name of a pad of paper, they have a screen and a tablet form factor. Not much notable about that.-- Terrillja talk  18:14, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Its not a name connection its the similarity of the two devices - I've moved the content to 'screen and input'. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 20:57, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Jailbreaking
It is the undersdtanding of the Library of Congress has ruled inthe United States that it is no longer illegal to jailbreak iPod/Pad/Phone. For the full information on the statement, the link is here 173.88.137.100 (talk) 12:41, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not aware of anywhere in the article that says it's illegal to jailbreak the device, only that it voids the warranty.-- Terrillja talk  14:06, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I doubt it really voids the warranty outside Apple fantasy land. Especially in Europe. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 16:21, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, I'm sure it does. If a moisture sensor is all that's needed to determine warranty coverage, a jailbroken device is definitely enough to deny warranty coverage.-- Terrillja talk  03:33, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * At least in Europe warranties are a legal right, so as long as you don't do anything unlawful or clearly careless with the device (such as dropping it in the toilet) then your warranty should be valid. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 14:19, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Does the library of congress really have the authority make that decision? ☻☻☻Sithman VIII !!☻☻☻ 17:03, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

In the US the authority is that there is a specific DMCA exemption for jailbreaking. And the EU apparently has a law also allowing jailbreaking. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 22:37, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Specifically, I believe that it wasn't a 'ruling' so much as a 'proper interpretation'. In the USA, there exists something known as the first-sale doctrine. It comes from a series of 100% consistent Supreme Court rulings stretching back over a century. The basic gist of it is... If you buy an iPhone/iPad/iEtc, you own that physical device; it belongs to you, not Apple, and hence, they have no right or privilege to dictate how you dispose of said device; their copyrights/patents merely protect them against you making unauthorized replication of part or whole of it. So under IP law, there's nothing wrong with Jailbreaking. The part where there was a question was the DMCA (which isn't truly IP law) where Apple had argued that Jailbreaking was a means of circumventing copyright protection... Which is a somewhat sketchy given the light of Sony v. Universal, and further in this case clashes with the older (and far better-established) rights a user is given through the first-sale doctrine. Hence, it is the case that Jailbreaking has always been fully legal, and this was just a matter of the Library of Congress clearing up the matter.


 * Of course, while that does answer the LEGAL half of the question, Apple and AT&T still have a limited form of recourse through their control over the warranty and service plans, respectively. As both of those things are services rather than goods, they don't fall under IP law, and likewise aren't subject to the first-sale doctrine; they may dictate terms for the warranty and service plan. Of course, there can be state laws in the USA that will modify things, and possibly prohibit specifically Apple from specifying terms on its warranty. 207.241.137.116 (talk) 23:18, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

See also section
Is it just me or is it a bit long? -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 14:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I've given it a trim and removed most of the potential competition other than the HP Slate. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 21:17, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Omitted features section
I don't know if this is the right title I would use. I don't think the word feature is correct, a lot of the "features" mentioned I don't consider features at all and more like overkill. What is a better word? I guess there is none because they are features, but maybe the point is this section shouldn't exist at all? How can you have a section on "omitted features" were they once in the prototype then removed? Do you write a review of a car and ask why it doesn't have a snow blow on it?

I suppose this is addressed because it is written that they are features consumers would expect to have, it still seems like an awkward section since over half of it is explaining why the features are omitted so why even have the section at all? The first thing a girl said to me when she saw the iPad was where is the DVD slot! A DVD slot? That is ridiculous! It just goes to show consumers don't know what they want because they don't understand technology, you cannot write an explanation every time a technology becomes deprecated. Seems pointless and written by a bitter person who just doesn't like Apple that much to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rukaribe (talk • contribs) 16:25, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Without it isn't it too pro-Apple? And isn't it worth discussing the controversies? -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 19:56, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Sales numbers - return rates
It would be advisable to find sales rates independent of Apple, as they clearly have a vested interest in inflating sales numbers while downplaying rates of return. I have no idea where one could source this information, perhaps a shareholder report?Mrrealtime (talk) 20:29, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd presume better/updated sales numbers can be got from Apples quarterly reports. From the data found on http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/07/20results.html it looks like 3.2 million iPads were sold in the June quarter. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 20:45, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Nominating iPad for FA
I'm considering nominating iPad for Featured article status. Any comments? -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 21:10, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I can't see any way that it would ever pass. The GA was contentious enough with a few questionable, but pass, but an FA is a different animal.-- Terrillja talk  22:59, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Why? All the issues bought up at GA have been fixed. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 07:27, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Infobox image
I dont have an iPad, but if you have a nice clean one handy and something to take a good photo on a plain background similar to the one in the infobox, and feel like uploading it to File:IPad_Home.png with a new © ticket... need any help buzz me here  Trev M ~  13:06, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll reply to the deletion discussion over the weekend. I'm at the pub tonight. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 19:01, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I've done so. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 09:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I've taken and uploaded quite a few computer pictures - if there's a need, I can take one of my iPad with the default config tomorrow, although it will have to wait until then as the light at the moment would be less than ideal. - Bilby (talk) 09:59, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Lets at least see whether the Samsung image gets deleted today as I've improved the rationale and cropped that one too. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 12:14, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
 * FWIW the deletion request has been withdrawn. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 17:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Nice one, WOSlinker, Eraserhead, Bilby.  Trev M ~  21:52, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Of note this is under discussion again. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 18:59, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Yup, please see File talk:IPad Home.png. 23:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
 * [[Image:IPad-02.jpg|20px]] The hands give the image some scale. The colour of the screen just reminds me I'm waiting for a half decent E ink device to appear. Looks less like an advert. Progress but non linear. Reminds me of the first Mac I ever bought - a 520C, in the earliest days of colour laptops.  Trev M  ~  02:45, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
 * But its now too dark. Oh well there are other images that appear to be OK. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 06:23, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Security breach
Here's an article about a security breach involving the ipad: Dignan, Larry. "AT&T's Apple iPad security breach: Is Goatse the bad guy?" ZDNet. June 14, 2010. WhisperToMe (talk) 00:40, 8 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Seems more like a security breach involving a cellular operator, rather than the product itself? Bonusballs (talk) 16:12, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Large logo constitutes Promo
The iPad "logo" in the infobox is almost identical in appearance to the infobox title. Having it larger than the title constitutes WP:Promo. TM I'm adding this note - together with a comment in the wikicode - for the record because I changed it with a note in the edit summary and within a week it was back even larger.

Personally, I think either one or the other should go, in this case, as having both serves no purpose and looks messy. If significant contributers here feel the same, or are even ambivalent, I'd like to know.  Trev M ~  21:49, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but that is utterly ridiculous. The text used to promote the product is distinctive and is arguably nearly as important as a picture of the device itself. As the device is marketed with both the text and the device, both are instrumental to understanding the device. What you have done is taken something that looks reasonable and represents the product fairly and make it look like the code is screwed up. So with that, I will now revert you in order to keep the article in a state where the text is readable and in line with published documents. And WP:PROMO doesn't apply, not evey by the greatest stretch of the imagination. It's a product name, not some sort of advertising slogan. -- Terrillja talk  22:54, 4 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Firstly I apologise for citing the wrong WP guidline. Clearly, as you state, the logo is not "spam" and the notion is ridiculous. What I wished to convey is that the size of the logo implies advertising, recommendation of a product, drawing unnecessary attention to its branding. I utterly refute your argument that the logo is "arguably nearly as important as a picture of the device itself" – maybe if you work for Apple sales it is! I agree that the name iPad, even the spelling and capitalisation may be important in conveying the precise product being discussed, however, this should be conveyed neutrally, that is, with the appropriate weight with respect to other headings on the page. It is utterly unnecessary, in order to understand this device from a neutral and encyclopedic point of view, to have a large logo for the device displayed between its image and the identical infobox name.


 * The WP:Wikipedia article itself gets around the repetition issue by not using any "logo" field, and using its own typeface specific logo and an svg in the title position of the infobox. I would settle for that, in the original size, before you replaced it with an even larger image than I reduced, that is 75px, in combination with the image as now rendered, reaching the top of the infobox.


 * Best,  Trev M ~  18:59, 5 September 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, I appreciate that the above point has been taken up, but when I go to the page I am still instantly hit by the unusual size of the text, which therefore comes across as pushy. I'm not anti-Apple, or the device – I'm sitting here using a Mac – and I've just given the Apple a touch more space on the Mac page because it was "crashing", aesthetically, into the text beneath it. But here, less is more. I'll leave it to someone else, it was 75px when I stuck my neck in. Best,  Trev M  ~  22:51, 6 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Debate continuing at Village_pump_(policy)/Archive 79 at the moment.  Trev M ~  14:27, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Ignoring size…
We shouldn't be using images to replace plain text riffic (talk) 11:50, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Except that the image (of text) is a distinctive part of the branding of the device.-- Terrillja talk  11:55, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I can't see it because I am blind. Not very accessible are we riffic (talk) 12:14, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * It uses the alt="iPad" parameter, which should come out as "iPad" for screenreaders. -- Terrillja talk  12:32, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * But we're writing an encyclopedia, not a catalog. I've never seen another infobox name field with anything other than plain text. Ever heard of semantic markup? (See also iPod.) Reverting. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:35, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * It was in the logo= field, but that was opposed as saying iPad twice close to each other, using the name= field was a compromise. And for other uses, see the previous version of Wikipedia, which did the same thing. IPod Touch uses the logo field FWIW. -- Terrillja talk  19:43, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * As Sarek stated, other articles do not use images in the name field. It is irregular, discontinuous. ¦ Reisio (talk) 19:51, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * WIkipedia does, and the IPod Touch article uses the logo field. The use of the logo field was objected to, the use of the name field was seen as a compromise.-- Terrillja talk  19:54, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia doesn't at this moment, but even if it did, that would be one or two articles out of thousands that have infoboxes. ¦ Reisio (talk) 20:05, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Because you edit warred to make it that way. Might as well 'fess up to why it doesn't.-- Terrillja talk  20:14, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't really see the problem with using the logo field -- just with making the Name field do something it was never supposed to do. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:00, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. ¦ Reisio (talk) 20:05, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, then are there any objections to using the logo field? – xeno talk 20:11, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * That's fine, the only reason why it changed from that is per the above bit. I was happy to have it the way it was, but I was trying to accommodate another user's concerns.-- Terrillja talk  20:14, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * no major objections to using the logo field of the infobox as that is how the infobox is appropriately designed to be used. Please stop abusing the infoboxes by putting garbage content in the semantic name field. riffic (talk) 02:16, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

I just took this over to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Infoboxes‎ for a more-general discussion. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:20, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I think using the image is fine, I really honestly don't think its worth arguing about - even if someone is WP:OWNing the article. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 23:45, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

OS Release
Can someone with permission to edit the page update the Operating System section to clarify, iOS 4.1 is current OS release, but 3.2.2 wasn't released 32 days ago and was the OS at release. I recommend an initial OS and current OS section. Jrdoane (talk) 23:56, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * iOS 4.1 is only for the iPhone/iPod touch. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 18:24, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Insanity
This edit warring over the logo is ludicrous. Why not follow precedent, and aim for consistency? The iPhone has no such logo. So why put one here? The logo is product branding. Wikipedia is an encylopedia (or aims to be). Not a channel for advertisement. Those who have been reverting to the logo ought to be banned from editing the article, or at least making that specific change IMO. TimL (talk) 21:27, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Precedent? As in the IPod Touch infobox?-- Terrillja talk  21:51, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * oo, that's a bad precedent, especially considering the logo is an apple trademark. TimL (talk) 21:40, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Counter example. Motorola Droid X infobox. Seems we need to appeal to a higher authority. If there is no style guideline regarding product logos, perhaps it is time to make one. TimL (talk) 21:48, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * this discussion pretty much covers the concerns that you have. FWIW, there doesn't appear to be any sich thing as a droid X wordmark, so that may be a poor example. (I searched for logo as well, nothing there either) -- Terrillja talk  21:51, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * While I have reservations with regards to product logos, I don't have the same reservation as to company logos. Yeah, this is a lame discussion, but it seems obvious to me that product logos have no place in Wikipedia. I imagine this is one of those 50/50 issues, where no consensus will ever be attained. TimL (talk) 22:01, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Links to reviews
In this revision I linked to a comprehensive list of test and reviews: [] I'm curious about why this is regarded as spam. It's far more useful than the thousands of external links to single reviews by, e.g., Engadget, Cnet etc.

The link I provided fulfills this very important point in: [] "Is the site content proper in the context of the article (useful, tasteful, informative, factual, etc.)?"

TobiasK (talk) 21:40, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The thing is, it isn't just a review aggregator, it's a site which reviews the quality of reviews (weird) and has no proof that it is considered to be a reliable source. Linking to reliable sources in the form of references is far more appropriate. -- Terrillja talk  22:06, 25 September 2010 (UTC)


 * It is indeed first and foremost a review aggregator, that just happens to rate the quality of the reviews listed too. How can it be a reliable source?TobiasK (talk) 22:22, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Generally, by being notable itself, but there is more info at WP:RS. Again though, I am preferential to using reviews as references, if a reader wants to go look for more info, they can follow the ref. Keeps the article from falling into a linkfarm. -- Terrillja talk  23:46, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * TobiasK, please stop adding links to websites you are affiliated with. Thanks. - MrOllie (talk) 20:25, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Links to ads?
Why are links to Cat & the Hat and spider app allowed? Feel like its advertisement. Should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AppleNo1 (talk • contribs) 06:54, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. Not sure why random kids apps are linked to. It's hardly encyclopaedic. Removing. --Gordon (talk) 15:44, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Reception
The reception section seems EXTREMELY one sided.... like seriously.... "Andy Ihnatko of the Chicago Sun-Times calls the iPad "one of the best computers ever"." ..... one of the best computers...EVER?!.. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an anti-apple or anti-ipad type of guy. The ipad is great for a lot of things, but it doesn't appeal to the entire laptop market, or satisfy the needs of many computer users. This article makes it seem like iPads are better than a pc laptop or macbook in every way. I mean, there should at least be a disadvantage section or something that compares it to a regular laptop. FAQ for criticisms: "Because no one has found reliable sources to source further criticism." no reliable source for criticism??? there's a lot of common criticism about it, a lot of people expected it to have an operating system like a macbook, instead of that of the iphone, and were very disappointed by that, i remember reading a lot about that at the time, but i'm too lazy right now too look for that stuff..... A lot, and i mean A LOT, of people do seriously consider the iPad a joke, and that it is useless, and this article says barely anything negative about it. just go to google, and search "the ipad is" and look at the suggestions. I'm not saying we should insult the iPad, but this article should not be so apple biased, praising it as "one of the best computers ever" and barely mention any real criticism (Above by 72.133.55.59)


 * Thing is, what "a LOT of people were expecting" doesn't matter here or there. Firstly, if "a LOT of people were expecting" anything except what they got, then they were wrong. Apple never announced or claimed that the iPad would be anything other than what it is. The views of "a LOT of people" who had somehow convinced themselves that a non-existent product would be released are of limited value, and of no value at all within the content of an encyclopaedic article. "It doesn't appeal to the entire laptop market" - yes, and? The iPad does not appeal to the entire can opener market either. That's because it's not a can opener! Again, encyclopaedias are supposed to be above that kind of logical fallacy. If there is REAL criticism of a product, from an authoritative and reliable source - and that means places like CNet, The New York Times, and so on, not individuals' blogs and forum posts - then those quotes are fair game and can be mentioned in the article. (As indeed some already have, a few paragraphs below the one you mention.) But for the moment there has been little "real" criticism of sufficient value and notability to mention. That's not pro-Apple bias, that's just a true reflection of how it is. Bonusballs (talk) 12:05, 16 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Although I agree with you, I think that this guy has a point about pointless praises being quoted in the reviews section:
 * "Ed Baig of USA Today bluntly states that the iPad "is a winner".[110] Andy Ihnatko of the Chicago Sun-Times calls the iPad "one of the best computers ever""
 * .....saying that the iPad is "a winner" and "one of the best computers ever" is pointless crap that doesn't belong. It's completely worthless to quote sources calling the iPad super awesome if you don't quote WHY they think so. People would like to know WHY THE IPAD IS LIKED, not just 'oh it's totally awesome i love it, it's so super cool and great' 155.92.100.69 (talk) 03:40, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I can't find this content in the article, so I guess it has already been removed. (PS I agree with Bonusballs) -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 06:46, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I decided to remove it right after posting my comment 155.92.100.69 (talk) 07:13, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

IPAD Weight
The article says that the weight is 700 gms when it fact it is 1.5 pounds —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.107.0.81 (talk) 19:46, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Same difference, its just using a sensible measurement system in the article. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 20:56, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Apple dumps AT&T
Just sawr an iPad on Verizon tv spot, time to remove this AT&T exclusive business. Unfortunately, Verizon's site is down, most likely due to people freaking out about this, but when it's back up you all can confirm it for yourselves.
 * AT&T is the only company that supports the 3G in the US. Verizon uses a mobile hotspot to provide internet over wifi through a separate device, creating a local hotspot, just as Sprint has been doing for a little while.-- Terrillja talk  06:43, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Frequencies
The article states that due to frequency differences the 3g ipad cannot connect via 3g to the TMobile network in the USA. So the obvious questions are:


 * What frequencies does it support?
 * Are there any other networks elsewhere in the world that are GSM but use unsupported 3g frequencies
 * Do the supported frequencies depend on the region in which the iPad was sold?

Buckyball6002 (talk) 22:25, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Ignoring spelling convention = misinformation
This is one of many articles on Wikipedia that is spreading misinformation by insisting on its own capitalization scheme in Apple's product names, i.e., using "iPod Touch" instead of "iPod touch." I'm aware of the arguments and rationale (or lack of it) behind the insistence on an imaginary "standard" of capitalization re: product names. However, in practice, this means that users cannot look to Wikipedia for proper capitalization of Apple's product names. This is a huge disservice to copywriters and technical writers, who, after all, are presumably an important audience segment for Wikipedia; and it undermines Wikipedia's credibility among an important segment of its readership. rowley (talk) 20:42, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
 * See this in the iPod Touch talk archives. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 21:06, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
 * &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 21:37, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
 * This is an encyclopedia, not a stylebook. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  22:03, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree! Sbmeirow (talk) 04:41, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Article Outdated
Throughout this article there are many comments about lack of multitasking in the present tense. Why? Tcla75 (talk) 16:41, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Good point. I'll take a look tomorrow. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 21:57, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 22:53, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Madtv
Should we reference the Madtv iPad sketch made before this was invented? Thylacinus cynocephalus (talk) 21:18, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

I assume it can connect to WEP networks. What about WPA/WPA2 etc.?
CaribDigita (talk) 01:54, 9 January 2011 (UTC)


 * This reply to you comes via an iPad using a WPA2 network. Darrell_Greenwood (talk) 03:10, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

iPad 2 redirect header
This looks rather ugly, and if there was more coverage there would be a "main article" link so it seems unneeded. Thoughts? -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 08:01, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * If we just call the section iPad 2 that would eliminate many problems. Marcus Qwertyus   08:48, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * That is certainly a lot better than the current situation. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 08:49, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Is there any evidence that the next iPad will in fact be called iPad 2? While certainly possible, it seems unlikely given recent names of Apple products. Furthermore, the content in this section contains information about future revisions, not necessarily the next revision, so using something like "Future iPads" seems more appropriate. For that reason, I think the current "for a notional iPad 2" wording should be adjusted. --Mepolypse (talk) 12:51, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

== iPad support and development = =

Followed by

iPad 2 is blah blah blah
 * iPad 2

more blah
 * Software updates

As for the name iPad 2: It is the common name and who cares if we get the name wrong. We got it wrong with the first iPad. Marcus Qwertyus   13:03, 14 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Sounds like a lot of blah blah blah to me. ;-) Seriously, I don't understand what your proposal is. What do software updates have to do with this? As for who might care, our readers might, if they get the impression that the name is known. For that reason I think it's more appropriate to refer to them as "future iPads" (the first existing paragraph) and "the next iPad" (the second existing paragraph) respectively. We could add info noting that the press uses speculative names like iPad 2 in a parenthesis or similar, but we should make it clear that the true name for the next iPad is not yet known. --Mepolypse (talk) 15:35, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The next iPad sounds like a better name, if we can keep the "iPad 2 redirects here" from being in the article as that is far more annoying. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 17:29, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * we have to follow the references. They uniformly use the name, ipad 2. When there is an official name, we can change and add the necessary redirects.   DGG ( talk ) 23:22, 17 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I think The next iPad or Future iPads would be best. (When I created the section I called it "iPad 2" – with quotes.) --Pnm (talk) 23:56, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 86.99.152.73, 15 January 2011
I believe that this article could be provided with more info. By the Way, wish Wikipedia a 10th Birthday Greetings

86.99.152.73 (talk) 17:23, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Such as? -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 17:25, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

iPad 2 related content
Apparently this redirect was taken to deletion review. If anyone wishes to discuss further content for this device can they do so below. It would be useful to gauge whether there is going to be enough content that it should be spun out into its own article. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 16:32, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * This appears to be being discussed above in the iPad 2 section, so lets keep discussion there. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 22:13, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

iPad 2 release date speculation
I've just removed a comment from PC Mag about the iPad 2 release date, its quite clear from the article that the author is just making it up. Thus its not suitable for inclusion here. Most of the other stuff iPad 2 speculation at least has some factual basis to work on. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 08:46, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The second comment on the release date has been removed as well as it isn't backed up by a WP:RS. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 08:50, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Next iPad GPU rumor
I removed information from this source about rumors of the new iPad GPU. Per WP:CRYSTAL, speculation doesn't belong in Wikipedia. It doesn't matter whether it's printed in reliable sources. --Pnm (talk) 23:52, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Update re Apps
The statement, dated Sep 2010, that there are 25,000 apps for the ipad is not at all current. Apple now (Feb 2, 2011) says "... you can choose from over 300,000 iPhone and iPod touch apps in the App Store. iPad works with almost all of them." http://www.apple.com/ipad/apps-for-ipad/ This raises the issue as to how current is any of the information. I appreciate the effort and the need to lock the article but could the article please post the "last fully reviewed for current info" date. A locked article could have a special utility (not necessarly this general discussion area, for the public to suggest updates or additions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.129.75.19 (talk) 19:14, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The iPad figure doesn't include apps that are primarily not designed for the iPad. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 18:37, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Your distinction might make sense in your own mind but what I care about is getting useful, balanced info to the reader. When an app "primarily not designed" (whatever that means)for the iPad nevertheless works just fine and dandy on the iPad (the phone and pad DO share the same operating system), then it is misleading to use the "25,000" number. We ALL know that your number is ancient in that zillions of new iPhone/iPad apps are hitting the market every month and stats are no longer kept re which are "Primarily designed" for which. They are designed for a certain OS. (I'm sorry I don't "sign" these but my eyesight is bad and it's hard for me to read all the small print re registedring etc. Call me Sorker.)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.129.75.19 (talk) 01:02, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Attempted toilet humor inappropriate
This is my polite, non-attack, welcoming and assumes-good-faith comment re "In the first days after the iPad's announcement, some media and many online commenters criticized the name "iPad", noting its similarity to "pad", the common name for a sanitary napkin. Shortly after the launch announcement, the hashtag "iTampon" became the number-two trending topic on the social networking site Twitter."

Pu-leeze! Any anti-Apple adolescent (or adult stuck in that stage) can create supposed criticizm like that. I KNOW that you have objective sources for the info but it's not real in the sense of any true outrage, it's not relevant, and it ought not make the cut as to use of space in the article. That's not "censorship" it's deciding what info is relevant to the reader.

"Pad" has more than 20 definitions: apartment, helicopter landing place, a foot, bound paper, floating leaf of a water plant, any horizontal concrete surface, athletic-impact protection devices, medical gause pads, brake pads, it can even mean a horse with an easy gate or to fake (as to pad the accounts) or to walk. "Any fool", so that includes me, knows that the iPad name evokes a certain general size of thin, flat surface the user can hold and read from and write on (i.e. a pad of paper). If you want a section for "Ipad in popular culture" (so that I know to skip it) then put this there. Please.

Half of the article seems to be remnants of an old, outdated "buzz" article about the launch and reception and predictions. It's as though an article about aircraft spend half of its space on pre-1910 info. Perhaps fine for its time but not a good base now. A 2011 article needs a rewrite with a different approach. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.129.75.19 (talk) 19:59, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Please remove "noting its similarity to 'pad',". This is entirely unnecessary and, in fact, reads like something written by a 12 year old child with a boner.

99.184.95.183 (talk) 02:48, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * We could remove that whole sentence on the iTampon thing. At this point possibly its undue weight? -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 08:17, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Probably better to split reception of the iPad and remove the non-essentials from this article. Marcus Qwertyus   08:49, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Good idea. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 09:13, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Genx97, 7 February 2011
To be included in History I would like to include the more recent speculation that the iPad was tested with the public during the Pixar movie The Incredibles. http://www.cultofmac.com/did-steve-jobs-test-the-ipad-with-pixar-movie-%E2%80%9Cthe-incredibles%E2%80%9D-macworld-2011/79445

Genx97 (talk) 03:02, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Not done: That's definitely not a reliable source, and we generally don't print speculation. If you have a reliable source, we can look at it and see if it appropriate to include. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:53, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Education Outdated
The Patterson School of Diplomacy and International Commerce now has all students, faculty, and administrators doing the bulk of their work off iPads. They are currently the most-involved experiment in iPad application in the classroom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.163.237.17 (talk) 06:28, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

28 January iPad release to 25 countries
Currently the "Release" section only states that India received the iPad on 28 January 2011, but South Africa and Latvia did as well. Does anyone have a source stating all 25 countries that received the device on 28 January 2011? I can't find anything on the Apple site about this at all. --The Extremist (User, Talk) 14:35, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * We certainly don't want to list all 25 of the countries, I'm extremely dubious about the value of listing more than the important countries at any stage. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 19:12, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

New section - Entertainment
I think after "Music", we could add that Gordon Ramsay's Claridge's restaurant uses an iPad for its wine list (reported in Harpers Wine and Spirit Magazine) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.141.18.224 (talk) 23:35, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Multiple generation articles
What do people think about this. Is it worthwhile? Frankly I'm not convinced it really is when there are only two generations, but I'm happy to see how it goes. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 08:16, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * To expand a little more, given the reception stuff has been split off I don't think there will be enough unique content to warrant separate articles. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 08:32, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Geolocation in comparison table
I don't think that is factually correct, I believe the feature is same for ipad 1 and 2. GPS feature depends on which version of ipad you buy (wifi or 3g) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.9.13.133 (talk) 14:10, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 20:05, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Both the Wi-Fi only and the 3G models have GPS. Here is a screen capture from my Wi-Fi only iPad http://sdpasse.net/Pictures/iPad-GPS-B.jpg. Obviously the "Google Maps" (internet based maps) required Intenet access (by either means) 137.118.249.224 (talk) 01:28, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
 * You are confusing Location Services with GPS. Only the 3G model has GPS. Darrell_Greenwood (talk) 02:59, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Omitted Features
While I'm generally not one to do anything to make Apple look better, I have to object to the existence of an "omitted features" section. I always find sections like this inherently non neutral. In order for something to be "missing" or "omitted" it is implied that said thing is supposed to be there, or was there at one point. Who decides if something was supposed to be there? If CNET said "The iPad is pretty great but you can't use it as a skillet", you wouldn't list put "Can't be used as a skillet" under "omitted features". I think this section should be removed. Some of the content could be moved to other sections if necessary, but I think that for NPOV's sake, this has to be removed. Let me know what you all think. Captain Stack (talk)  10:12, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I strongly disagree. Apple promotes the iPad as the best way to experience the web, email, photos and video.  Flash is widely used for videos and games on websites and the failure to include flash limits the devices ability to display video and play games.  The failure to include USB or SD card port limits ability to display or import photos for email.  Using your example, the reason this section exists is because Apple claimed that they were going to make the best skillet in the world.  Yet, on release the iSkillet is discovered to be able to only cook eggs if they are not from a chicken, all the spices on my rack can't be used without buying multiple attatchments, and I am unable to add peppers and onions to my eggs as that would be cooking more than one thing at a time.Jojuko (talk) 17:53, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd submit that there are relatively few major sources of flash video which do not also offer their content in the more up-to-date formats supported by the iPad and other browswers. Apple offer a camera connection kit which allows you to import your photos from USB and SD card. Marketing phrases like "The best.." are just that, marketing. The actuality is always going to be a subjective opinion, but trying to shoot that down and prove it wrong is neither encyclopaedic or terribly interesting. I agree that the tone of an "omitted features" section is clearly grinding an axe and I too question it has NPOV or indeed any relevance to the article. Bonusballs (talk) 18:54, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 * What do you recommend doing with regards to the content? -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 18:57, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Some of the content I think we should delete and not feel bad about but you have to use your best judgement. However, something like the lack of Flash can go in the web browsing section. Something like the lack of an SD card slot however, I really question its relevance. There's a lot of tech stuff that goes on gadgets. We all wanted an SD card slot, we think it'd be better with one, but the fact is, the iPad doesn't have to have one and just because we wanted it doesn't mean it has to be here. Regarding what Jojuko said, I think Flash is a decent thing to call "missing" because Apple did say that it can browse the entire web, but I think most of the other stuff can be removed and/or moved to the Reception section. <b style="color:Blue;">Captain Stack</b> (talk)  20:54, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree - some of the points are valid and of some note - the absence of Flash is arguably notable because of the brouhaha that resulted and its place in a story of the battle of emerging web standards etc (blah blah blah), since the iPad was perhaps a unique lightning rod in that conversation. Most of the section itself is reasonably evenly balanced and the points could live with validity elsehwere in the article, but grouping them together under "Omitted Features" just seems like axe-grinding to me. Bonusballs (talk) 21:45, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm going to cover each of the points and explain their importance. Flash is widely used for online games and video.  Bonusballs might think that few websites use flash, but he could not be more wrong.  At release the iPad was unable to display video from YouTube, Hulu, Dailymotion, Metacafe, Megavideo, Vimeo, TED, and CBS to name a few.  I'm hard pressed to think of a third party video site that did not use flash.  They are now able to display video from YouTube, Hulu plus(the pay service, not Hulu), TED and CBS; that still leaves a great many sites inaccessible.  USB is ubiquitous on netbooks and laptops, including everyone made by Apple going back to the first iMac.  To claim that failure to include USB support is anything but a design flaw is disingenuous.  SD cards are used by the majority of cameras in use and on the market.  As the iPad is promoted as a device ideal for viewing and sending photos this is again a serious problem.  SD card readers are again a common feature on both netbooks and laptops.  These three things must be included in this article.  There is very good reason that almost every review out there mentions these three flaws.  They continue to bring these points up even to this day.  Removing these would violate NPOV, not the other way around.  Wikipedia is not designed to blindly promote particular products.  However, I do not see a problem with integrating them in the article as a whole and agree it would be best to get rid of the omitted features section.  Criticisms should be integrated into the body of the article rather than given their own section. As for screen aspect ratio and a built in camera, I see these as disappointments of not meeting the hype and expectations of critics for the device to really realize its potential.  Video conferencing was never a promoted feature and aspect has little impact for viewing most videos.  Because of that I would have little problem with those being mentioned only briefly or not at all.  Again, flash not being supported needs to be continued as it was a huge problem on release and continues to limit the devices functionality to this day.  As for USB and SD card slots, that is mentioned repeatedly on Apple's site as a limitation that is remedied by buying the iPad camera connection kit.  When these flaws are mentioned in the article I think it is only appropriate to mention this remedy right after.  As for multitasking, I believe this deserves mention as a flaw that existed upon release but was later fixed. Jojuko (talk) 03:24, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I would like to add suggestions as where to move this content. First under the reviews section it should mention common praise and criticism for the device.  The display, speed, interface, battery life, apps, and price are mentioned as positives in the majority of reviews.  Lack of flash (and the widespread use of this format especially at release), USB and SD ports (although solved with the camera connection kit), multitasking (fixed with later upgrade), and camera (should probably be included due to widespread mention).  I do not think the lack of flash should be moved to the web browsing section.  It would apply, but there is no web browsing section in this article. It is our duty on wikipedia to distill information from third party sources.  Cherry picking only the things that we would like to hear, ignoring what is present in the majority of reviews, is just not acceptable.Jojuko (talk) 04:53, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

I think some of you guys need to be WP:BOLD on this. I'm not 100% sure what you want to do, but it sounds fine. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 17:28, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Or you could just go ahead and remove the criticisms that I listed even if they are mentioned in every single review cited. Then leave only file sharing, printing, and being a closed system as flaws, even if they are only mentioned in a single source each and have nothing to do with how the Ipad was promoted. Nice whitewash fanboys.Jojuko (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 14:58, 11 March 2011 (UTC).

Edit request from MarkErickson, 4 March 2011
Please change iPad 2 dimensions to Apple specifications http://www.apple.com/ipad/specs/ :

Height: 9.50 inches (241.2 mm) Width: 7.31 inches (185.7 mm) Depth: 0.34 inch (8.8 mm) Weight: 1.33 pounds (601 g)

Specifically in Technical Specifications change iPad 2 Dimensions from 9.5×7.31×.346 in (240×186×8.8 mm) to 9.50x7.31x0.34 (241.2x185.7x8.8 mm)

In the iPad side bar change

2nd generation 9.5 in (240 mm) (h) 7.31 in (186 mm) (w) .34 in (8.6 mm) (d)

to

2nd generation 9.5 in (241.2 mm) (h) 7.31 in (185.7 mm) (w) .34 in (8.8 mm) (d)

Note do to rounding the Apple depth dimension appears to be incorrect. In order to be consistent the actual depth dimension must be approximately .3449 in (8.76 mm) by interpolation.

Mark (talk) 04:48, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * That happens due to the convert templates rounding, I suppose we could make it more accurate, but does it matter? -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 07:58, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Yep, it matters. Although it might seem small, for people like myself who make iPad cases, being off by mm's makes a big difference. The height is wrong by 1.2mm, and there is an important difference with the already thin 8.8 vs even thinner 8.6 numbers. Also don't like wikipedia not having the correct numbers, numbers that match Apple's specifications. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarkErickson (talk • contribs) 05:57, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * There's a difference of 0.2mm, which in anyones book is a wash. If your making an iPad case you aren't going to get the size here. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 07:42, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Just looking to get the correct values in. Those 0.2mm do show up in the specs, so it matters to some and those playing the "who is thinnest" marketing games. The rounding on the (h) is 1.2mm. After seeing various reports and different sizes (and without the device yet shipping), I did look here for something vetted by a larger community. Thus my added info. I'll get independent measurements and some tolerances soon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.2.126 (talk) 08:34, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Reliance on a PC?
There seems to be some confusion on the web about whether the iPad requires a PC of some sort to use it. Googling provides conflicting answers. Obviously, I don't own one, or I'd probably know the answer to this question. Could someone who does add something to that effect? StaticSan (talk) 01:41, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The answer is technically no, but really yes. You could buy all your media through iTunes directly onto the device, but you're going to want to back it up somewhere. Even more likely, you have a digital music collection (and app collection, if you own another iOS device) that you'll want to transfer over. I'm sorry the article isn't clear on this point. HereToHelp (talk to me) 04:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Isn't it true that you have to own a suitable PC, because you need to do a "first time sync" and registration procedure, and you also need it to do regular updates etc. I think this is a big deal in a way, as it prevents the iPad of being your only digital device. For example many people may not feel a need for a PC at all, as they can do every conceivable task they want to do with an iPad. Its time for the iPad to loose its umbilical cord. Also many older computers (Windows or OS X based), do not have what it takes to sync with an iPad, this is especially true (and sour) for owners of older iMac and eMac computers that lack USB-2 (those only having USB-1 and firewire interfaces), and who lack the possibility to install an USB-2 interface. These are still perfectly useable computers, but can't be used with an iPad. Mahjongg (talk) 00:46, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Operating System
This may be a little thing, but I figured it would be worth noting. The table that has all the information comparing the iPad 1 and 2 had the iPad 1 as running iOS 4.2.1. This may be how it ships, but it is able to run 4.3 with a software update. I changed the table to reflect that both models run 4.3 as opposed to the iPad 1 running only 4.2.1. I feel it would be acceptable to change my revision back if "Operating System" on the table was changed to reflect that it ships with 4.2.1 but can run iOS 4.3. Or whatever... Drivec (talk) 00:03, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Corylulu, 15 March 2011
edit semi-protected

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4215/apple-ipad-2-benchmarked-dualcore-cortex-a9-powervr-sgx-543mp2/2

Benchmarks revealed that the A5 processor used in the iPad 2 is actually clocked at 900MHz not at the rumors 1GHz.

Corylulu (talk) 00:17, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * ❌ The A5 is a 1 GHz chip, as is confirmed by the ifixit article, but it its dynamically clocked, and 900MHz is just one of the clockspeeds that can be used.
 * You are confusing maximum clock speed that the chip can handle, and (one of) the clock speeds that it can be clocked at. In fact the iPad 2 simply clocks at the speed that the application(s) require, nothing more, nothing less. One of the keys to the long battery life that the device has is in not wasting unnecessary clock-cycles, and thus energy. Mahjongg (talk) 00:25, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

What the hell is 1066mbs ram?
Just saying, I think someone should take off the 1066 part. It just looks asinine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Krazyliljoo (talk • contribs) 21:30, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Nothing wrong with this, you are probably thinking about RAM capacity, which should normally indeed be a whole binary number like 1024, but the 1066 Mbps does not indicate the capacity of the RAM, but its transfer speed, as determined by the bus speed and interconnect technology. In this case DDR2-1066E RAM seems to have been used, I do agree this needs a better reference, as it not in the ifixit article. Mahjongg (talk) 00:18, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * If it's not critical, can we remove it from the infobox and have it only in the tech specs table? HereToHelp (talk to me) 20:43, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think its critical, I will make the changes. Mahjongg (talk) 20:03, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

"Crippled" Bluetooth in infobox
Rather than edit warring, let's discuss this here. I say that the infobox is a summary of technical information and that any qualification is likely to be POVish. Any sourced, specific details can be added to the article; there's a paragraph under Audio and Output. Sources must be reliable and the information must not be vague; what does "lockdown/proprietary" mean, anyway? HereToHelp (talk to me) 20:42, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Lockdown could go for pretty much any phone Verizon Wireless sells, so no, we don't need to be getting into the ins and out of what is available or not in the infobox or any table. There is no neutral way to present the information in a concise manner, and not be honest, it's generally WP:UNDUE. This is the first i have ever heard of a complaint over the bluetooth. Seems pretty common for any manufacturer or company to modify it to their liking.-- Terrillja talk  20:51, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi. Apple the the os producer, don't confuse with Verizon distributer. So unless you have other Apple os there, it's crippleware. Yosri (talk)
 * Vendors are known to request different things on their phones. Verizon is well known for disabling sync capabilities on all of their phones. My point is that it is hardly an isolated practice. And I don't see how it is crippled either.-- Terrillja talk  23:40, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Why don't you define crippleware and see where Apple os different. If I don't like Verizon, I can buy similar thing from others. Apple claim bluetooth, but disable some function qualify as crippleware. The fact you did not hear about it make me think they enggage in deceptive advertisement. Yosri (talk) 00:20, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I repeat my above points. One, the infobox is too summarized for this, but it could be appropriate in the article itself. Two, please find a reliable source that describes specifically how the iPad Bluetooth is crippled. HereToHelp (talk to me) 05:53, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Can you please explain who say that the infobox is too summarized for this? And you are welcome to write about lockdown in the article itself, if you want to remove it from infobox. I already put a reliable source on lockdown in Ipad, but it seem to goes missing now (I didn.t mention that it is cripple, only lockdown in the article). Yosri (talk) 13:46, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The infobox is a summary; that's what it is. Because I removed it from the infobox, I have to write about it in the article? What difference does it make to you? As for you reliable source, it admits that it was wrong about Apple lockdown. It also does not describe how the Bluetooth is crippled. What, specifically, can you not do because of the lockdown? HereToHelp (talk to me) 15:39, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, sorry for not notice the write up. I only check the infobox. You might to check this for more info http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/14/business/yourmoney/14digi.html?_r=1&em&ex=1168923600&en=53015d2825fc3704&ei=5087%0A Yosri (talk) 00:44, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Cut iPad 2
How about Cuting all of the iPad 2 info because that it has it's own page. If there is any info that isn't in the page, I will add it in the page. Awsome EBE123  talkContribs 13:39, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Then this page isn't a summary of all the iPad models. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 13:41, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Even iPhone, which summarizes four models, includes information specific to each. Meanwhile, the fate of iPad 2, unlike iPhone 4, is undecided. I realize that you're acting in good faith but removing iPad 2 from this article would undermine the deletion discussion. HereToHelp (talk to me) 15:59, 20 March 2011 (UTC


 * I didn't do it yet. Awsome  EBE123  talkContribs 22:47, 22 March 2011 (UTC)


 * the usual solution to this would be to leave summary of the information here. `   DGG ( talk ) 23:51, 26 March 2011 (UTC)


 * That's assuming iPad 2 stays. Most of it is crud, and the content that isn't crud can be moved here, and most of it already has been. If iPad 2 is deleted, all relevant information goes here, but integrated with the rest of the article. It gets its own section in History, since it cam chronologically later, but the information on the device itself should not segregate generations. HereToHelp (talk to me) 00:24, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Digital Rights Restrictions?
The iPad article refers to DRM as Digital Rights Restrictions and The iOS page specifically refers to Digital Rights Management IOS_(Apple) when they are talking about the same concept as the iPad section on Digital Rights Restrictions includes a link to the iOS DRM section. It seems like Digital Rights Restrictions is some sort of euphemism of sorts. If you search for "Digital Rights Restrictions" using a search engine, the top links all refer to Digital Rights Management. Shouldn't the iPad article be changed to be uniform with the iOS page? Tall Midget (talk) 05:21, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks to have been done. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 06:31, 23 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Someone got a wee bit confused and munged Digital Rights Management (a term favored by many rightsholders) with Digital Restrictions Management (a term favored, it seems, by some in the free-and-open movement). Regardless, whomever did this made a bit of a mess. I--and someone before me--cleaned it up a bit. Anyone else game to take a shot at it? &mdash; <b style="color:black">Uncl</b><b style="color:darkred">eBubba</b> ( T @ C ) 06:33, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Images
Hi all. I want to have a discussion regarding image use, and what constitutes a good image. In the infobox, we prefer to have a clean, straight-on shot, but it is most important to show the holistic product, including the user interface. Therefore, Evan-Amos's image is currently unacceptable but can potentially be superior to the current image. There are many images that technically infringe copyright, but are tagged as free and available on Commons. Perhaps of the least concern is the image previously used to illustrate reading a book, with a copyrighted contemporary work. Although I have let Evan-Amos's replacement stand, after the infobox it is often helpful to show the product being used, rather than in a vacuum. Please be courteous when adding/replacing images. Also, most copyright violations do not require right-this-moment attention, and can be dealt with by discussion. Therefore, I have protected the page for an hour, which with hopefully give Evan-Amos time to make a version suitable for the infobox. HereToHelp (talk to me) 18:47, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Trout accepted. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 18:51, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Nice new image. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 20:53, 7 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Would it not be possible to show the iPad displaying a Wikipedia page? Some iPad browsers can be configured to not show the top toolbar, if the browser's copyright is an issue. --NellieBly (talk) 21:33, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That isn't really very interesting or worthwhile - you may as well show the device off. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 23:06, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

The iPad 2 image, IPad_2_White_Front.jpg, is awful! The white balance is way off, leaving the device looking a peculiar shade of orange. Even the caption says, '..available in black and white (shown).' Shown?! Also, the full size image looks like it's been upscaled from a low-res photo taken using a mobile phone camera. No offence meant to the perpetrator photographer! :) nagualdesign (talk) 03:16, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll post an image of mine as soon as I unbox it on Thursday, assuming no one has uploaded a better one. Jackster (talk) 18:51, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Bpedigo, 4 April 2011
It would be useful if an edit was made with new information as to the power usage shown from this link: http://www.energy-meter.org/electronics/ipad-power-consumption-while-charging/ Tests showed the device using 10W of power while charging.

Bpedigo (talk) 21:07, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

"The iPad is designed to be charged with a high current (2 amperes) using the included 10 W USB power adapter." pretty much says the same exact thing.-- Terrillja talk  21:34, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

iPad 2?
Should we include some unconfirmed information on the iPad 2? According to Gizmodo, the iPad 2 should be thinner and lighter, include two rear and front-facing cameras and a higher-res display. They are to start production in early 2011.

Please note that these are only rumors. If we do decide to include them in this article, we should mention this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ctyonahl (talk • contribs) 21:10, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it's viable to present the coverage of rumors; Apple is like this. Anyway, as long as we have sources, we're OK. ǝɥʇ M0N0 farewell 01:12, 11 December 2010 (UTC)


 * No. Absolutely not. WP:CRYSTAL: nothing goes up without an official announcement. HereToHelp (talk to me) 22:20, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
 * HTH, I see no problem in adding mention of the rumors, *as* rumors—coverage of the rumors is fine. @the M0N0 22:57, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think rumours should be included... -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 23:01, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I do, as they are perfectly notable. mono 02:18, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Mono is completely right. In fact, it is conceivable that an article could consist entirely of rumor as long as it met the general notability guideline. <span style="color: #21421E; font-family: font-family: 'Maiandra GD', sans-serif;;">Marcus <span style="color: #CC7722; font-family: font-family: 'Maiandra GD', sans-serif;;">Qwertyus   02:13, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * But I don't see that these rumours are notable enough for Wikipedia - otherwise we'd have articles for every product that had ever been rumoured. Wikipedia is not the place to support Apple's marketing machine. I find it a bit mad that iPad 2 was redirected - are we going to create iPad 3, iPad 4 etc redirects, due to being possible future products?
 * What we currently have in the article seems reasonable - though I'd argue it should be integrated into the main text, rather than needing a special section. Mdwh (talk) 22:09, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Heh, now I see that someone already has created iPad 3 as a redirect - although I see that this was done more to prevent people from creating the article, so yes, I see that as being a valid argument for preferring redirects to delete, in that if we deleted, someone would inevitably recreate it. Mdwh (talk) 22:13, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It's official. The iPad 2 was announced today with delivery March 11, 2011. Please update.173.58.53.212 (talk)

Deletion request
Of note there is a deletion request for iPad 2 at Articles for deletion/IPad 2. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 22:43, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Wrong Date
In the Technical specifications the date for release of Ipad 2 says 2010. It's 2011 now. I would fix it but the page is locked. 24.87.16.83 (talk) 06:52, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * ✅ <span style="color: #21421E; font-family: font-family: 'Maiandra GD', sans-serif;;">Marcus <span style="color: #CC7722; font-family: font-family: 'Maiandra GD', sans-serif;;">Qwertyus   06:56, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Tech specs
Specs list the iPad2 with a 1GHz Apple A5 (unsourced). Analysis shows it is dynamically clocked to 900MHz however: http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/12/ipad-2-specs-discerned-900mhz-arm-cortex-a9-and-powervr-sgx543m/ Suggest correcting or is there a source for 1GHz as per 1st gen iPad? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.25.236.226 (talk) 17:02, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

The line in the article "Without modification, and with the exception of websites, it will only run programs approved by Apple and distributed via its online store." is not quite correct. There are many companies that have in-house (or consultants) that have written apps for use that can be loaded onto the device and not go through the store. While commercial apps must be approved, those created by any developer can be run on any iOS machine they send the code to (if they include that machine's info in the provisioning file), or they can be installed by Enterprise developers from one of the many tools available for the purpose. Only buying from the App Store is only true of commercial apps sold (for free or for a price) through the store. The enterprise program is documented by Apple at Tsmyther (talk) 09:55, 11 April 2011 (UTC)Smitty

Reference to 'fondle slab' / 'Jobsian fondle slab'
This is a widespread, and growing popular usage term for the iPad, originated by the technical publication, The Register (http://theregister.com) but now more generally used as a common name for tablet PCs in general and iPad tablet PCs in particular. As such it should at least be referenced in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.159.107.224 (talk) 20:48, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * It's a derogatory term used by exactly one website and a handful of blogs. I submit that it is of no measurable encyclopaedic value or interest, IMHO. Bonusballs (talk) 22:18, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * This isn't worthy of inclusion. Its rather odd tbh. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 22:29, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Jdb8167, 19 April 2011
This line is accurate:

Some models also have a 3G wireless data connection which can connect to HSPA data networks.

But it is incomplete with the introduction of the iPad 2. There should be a note about EV-DO 3G as well. Suggested edit:

Some models also have a 3G wireless data connection which can connect to HSPA or EV-DO data networks.

Jdb8167 (talk) 14:49, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done — Bility (talk) 17:32, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

To add to article: Bicycle accessories
I'd like to see a subsection that goes over bicycle accessories about the iPad. Specifically, a bicycle dock where you can dock your iPad on the handlebar of your bike, therefore work on it at the same time that you pedal your bicycle.

Would anyone find any info about this? It would be some good info to add. Thanks. --70.179.169.115 (talk) 11:05, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I think this wins a prize for the most moronic thing I've ever heard of a cyclist doing... -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 11:09, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sure I can already guess why you think so, but in case it's surprisingly different, what makes you say that? --70.179.169.115 (talk) 12:38, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, it is THE way to receive turn-by-turn navigation while pedaling. You'd hate to get lost and without a fully-working GPS app. --70.179.169.115 (talk) 12:49, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe I've over-reacted, but given the record cyclists have (e.g. cycling without lights at night, down the road the wrong way, and through red traffic lights) they do have form. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 13:00, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Censorship
Right now censorship is under "Books, new, and magazine content." Though the information on censorship contains information pertaining to the App Store. I think it should be moved. Possibly to "recognition" or "Software." AlexanderMelton (talk) 16:00, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * ✅ -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 18:00, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Education
The iPad has several uses in the classroom,[160] and has been praised as a valuable tool for homeschooling.[161][162] Soon after the iPad was released, it was reported that 81% of the top book apps were for children.[163] The iPad has also been called a revolutionary tool to help children with autism learn how to communicate and socialize more easily.[164] '''The iPad makes learning more accessible with the available educational apps. Students can connect with people and information from around the world. The Apple Education site includes thousands of apps all organized by subject area.'''

Many colleges and universities have also used the iPad. Youngstown State University in Youngstown, Ohio, began offering three-hour rentals for the iPad for its Fall 2010 semester, in addition to rentals for the Amazon Kindle, laptop computers, and Flip cameras.[165] The state of Kentucky requires students to bring an iPad to school for use in the classroom.

Lloyd118 (talk) 13:25, 21 May 2011 (UTC)added by lloyd118
 * Do you have some sources? -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 15:09, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Edit Request
They is no info on apple.. Ijakejb (talk) 22:48, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

❌ For info on Apple, see Apple Inc., which is linked both here and in the article. Relevant information is included, largely in the History section. HereToHelp (talk to me) 01:53, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Edit Request
The weight of the iPad 2 models has been oversimplified. Given the serious battles over weight and size in this tech sector, the single entry of 600grams should be changed 613/607/601, per the figures on Apple's web site. User:Alan_Peery


 * Half done. Part of the job of an editor is to layer information. All three weights are given in the tech specs article. The infobox, the right-aligned box at the top of the page, is meant to be a summary. We go through great pains to keep it as short as possible, so I don't think a hundredth of pound is worth including there. But that information is also not included in the table in the body of the article, which is meant to be an intermediate level summary. I'll go ahead and add it there. HereToHelp (talk to me) 15:08, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit Request
"Steve Jobs backed the choice of screen size, saying a 7-inch screen would be "too small to express the software" and that 10 inches was the minimum for a tablet screen."

How can Steve Jobs "back" the choice when the actual screen choice does not meet his requirement? The IPads screen is 9.7inch, Steve Jobs specified a 10inch screen as being the minimum. Why do Apple fans still purport the IPad to be 10inches?

It should be pointed out that Steve jobs does not think the IPad meets his requirement for a tablet PC due to his statement! WayneARichmond (talk) 14:00, 23 June 2011 (UTC)


 * It's off by three tenths of an inch instead of three inches. Close enough. HereToHelp (talk to me) 14:20, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Fondleslab - Wiki-purging?
'Fondleslab' and 'Jobsian fondleslab' have become common slang terminology for this and similar devices. There used to be references on Wikipedia. If my memory serves me they occurred in this article and the article on the iPhone (sometimes called a mini-fondleslab). The origin was the propensity of users to fondle the slabs in public.

There may even have been, I think, a Fondleslab article. There was certainly a redirection.

And they've gone! Someone appears to have removed all references to fondleslabs. Is this Big Brother Apple engaing in Newspeak?

Similarly, Jesus Phone - common slang for the iPhone, probably based on the appearance of the bearded Steve Jobs often depicted with an iPhone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.181.174.7 (talk) 18:39, 29 July 2011 (UTC)


 * This has been discussed previously - it's a childish term, only 'commonly' used by a single website. As such it is of no encyclopaedic importance or note, and deserves no prominence. Bonusballs (talk) 19:26, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

No section On Designer?
Jonathan Ive, the designer behind all the modern Apple devices hasn't been mentioned in any one of the articles associated with the Apple devices he created, you could argue that Ive is the reason Apple is so famous today, I can only assume it's either due to ignorance or deliberate. Twobells (talk)
 * Updated the lead to include the designer Jonathan Ive whose industrial design projects made Apple the company it is today.Twobells (talk) 10:24, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

prehistory section.
The subheading 'Prehistory' appears under History section. Prehistory has defined is the period before recorded history. I am correct in saying the history of the Ipad goes back to this period or the Prehistory heading is simply wrong? Do we even need the Prehistory heading? 124.254.78.121 (talk) 23:10, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Article review
The "Usage"-section is complete and utter garbage. I thought advertisements were banned on wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.130.34.89 (talk) 15:25, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Usage
Can the use as a oscilloscope be mentioned ? See Oscium add-on module for Ipad — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.182.150.8 (talk) 12:43, 15 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Sure. While we are at it why not list every application to which the iPad can be put?  It would make for facinating reading not to mention an article which may qualify for Wikipedia's longest article.  On the other hand, it might be considered blatant spam. 109.156.49.202 (talk) 16:39, 26 October 2011 (UTC)