Talk:Isle of Man/Archive 3

Good article nomination on hold
lacks a proper license.

There are only 12 inline references. See if you can place additional inline references where appropriate. Consider formatting these references using cite. Perfect reference formatting is not strictly necessary for GA.

A few unreferenced statements, such as "Manx meat has a good reputation," appear to be original research. "As you would expect for an island, seafood has traditionally accounted for a large proportion of the local diet" is unencyclopedic because it uses "you." The article should be edited from top to bottom to comply with the Good Article Criteria.

Excessive subheadings disrupt the flow. The article would be easier to read because if it had better paragraph structure. Many sections have been broken out into separate articles. For instance, Communications on the Isle of Man, is just a collection of lists. It would be better to pare some of these little articles down to the essentials, turn them into prose, and merge them back into the main article. Manx language is better quality and should remain a separate article. We want to create a narrative article that flows logically from paragraph to paragraph and section to section.

I would enjoy a photograph of the capital city, and some of the activities discussed in the article. These additional photos are not strictly necessary, but they would improve the visual interest of the article and help the reader understand what Man looks like.

If the above action items are fixed, the article would be much closer to passing. Jehochman Hablar 03:32, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Failed
It's been past the 7-day maximum hold period, and some concerns are still outstanding, ex: the image still lacks proper licensing, and there are still only 12 references. Carson 04:43, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

IOM Accent
Could someone confirm which British/local accent the IOM accent derives from? or better still upload a file. Gazh 14:42, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, to me it sounds a lot like a Liverpudlian accent. But I'm just a jumped-up southerner! Biofoundationsoflanguage 17:40, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I would not say that that it is derived from any particular British accent, certainly not liverpudlian as far as I can tell. It is quite distinctive, though not easy to imitate. I suspect that the Manx Gaelic language intonation and speech patterns have had influence on a general northern English accent. Dabbler 18:00, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Of course Liverpool's distinctive accent comes from Irish immigrants landing there. Biofoundationsoflanguage 07:19, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Identifying the origins of the accent is not simple but there are certainly hints of Irish and Liverpudlian dialects in the local accent. Young people, in particular, have a very distinct Liverpudlian twang and much specific vocabulary is similar to that used in Liverpool. 213.230.130.56 14:26, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

The IOM has two distinct local accents - particularly around Douglas and in the younger population, the most prevalent is a mildy Liverpudlian-sounding west-British accent, though considerably softer and less guttural than the actual Liverpudlian dialect. The "genuine" Manx accent is generally heard among the older population in rural areas, and sounds rather different, using lengthened vowel sounds with slight hints of Irish about it. User:Buggane 22:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.254.87.68 (talk)
 * The first 30 seconds of the Freedom to Flourish video is John Kennaugh. He speaks with a Manx accent. Video availabile on YouTube. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.137.0.151 (talk) 13:23, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

If it helps, I've often been mistaken for Irish or American (or, in some cases, Canadian) in England. --Muna (talk) 05:41, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

So does it roll the R or not ? 167.1.176.4 (talk) 10:28, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Culture
The page has been edited recently with some POV-based opinions on the lack of Norse/Celtic influence, related to an uncited DNA-based study that supposedly demonstrates the lack of "Celtic" origins in the population. To my knowledge, no large-scale DNA study has ever been done on the Isle of Man - the most recent one of significance was a voluntary campaign for the BBC's "Blood of the Vikings" series, which revealed a significant proportion of Scandinavian DNA markers in the population of the north of the Island. This opinion also overlooks the fact that the "Celtic" influence was a cultural one, not necessarily a movement of populations - in the same way that Anglo-Saxon culture is predominant in England despite the fact that DNA studies have revealed that much of the English population originates from pre-Anglo-Saxon origins (For an example, see the entry on Cheddar Man and the continuity of his mitochondrial DNA into present-day populations 9000 years later). It would be naive to assume that the present-day population of the Isle of Man would be directly descended from the tall, blonde "Celts" of Austria, but nonetheless, the Manx still speak a "Celtic" language, and it's this cultural influence that should be cited, rather than the genetic origins of its population. It's undeniable that Norse (see Tynwald) and "Celtic" (see the Manx language) culture are still present. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.254.87.68 (talk) 22:49, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

In response to the above paragraph. "Tall, blond," would likely derive from a Norwegian imput, as the Isle of Man was for years known as the "Norse Kingdom of Man," ruled by Norwegian Viking Kings, who's seamen settled the isle. Celts are generally more of a reddish brown haired people generally of a short stature. Blond Austrians, would of course be of a north Germanic origin.216.78.49.247 (talk) 09:34, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually it is far from proven how much most of the people of Britain are 'Celtic' or 'Norse' or 'Anglo-Saxon' to give names to things that should not be given names (considering genetics does not belong to any culture). Everyone in Europe seem to be mixed in my opinion...but that is besides the point. You are correct in that being not 100% purely 'Celtic' genetically (not that you can be) does not mean that the Manx are not a Celtic culture just as the English and Austrians are not 100% genetically 'Germanic' or the Poles and Ukrainians are not 100% genetically 'Slavic' for the simple reason that genetics does not equal culture despite what some early 20th century geneticists and their modern followers may claim. Also language does not always equal culture thus the Irish and Shetlanders may speak English but they are culturally Celtic and Norse respectively. Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 18:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Lord of Mann in intro paragraph
It's an introductory paragraph, not the place for detailed speculation on the development of the headship of state since 1765... 136.8.152.13 17:20, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Government type.
As well as being a Crown Dependency, is it not also a Parliamentary Democracy (Constitutional Monarchy) because it has a parliament and the Queen as Head of State? Biofoundationsoflanguage 11:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think one would be hard pressed not to describe Mann as a parliamentary democracy. Quote from the agreement signed 1 May 2007 by the Chief Minister and the UK Lord Chancellor: "The UK has no democratic accountability in and for the Isle of Man which is governed by its own democratically elected assembly." Man vyi 15:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * We add it then? Biofoundationsoflanguage 16:33, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I think it would be helpful to the uninitiated who might otherwise assume that Mann is some sort of benighted colony ;-) Man vyi 19:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Righto. I'll see what I can do. The Government bit on infoboxes is always a bit dodgy. Biofoundationsoflanguage 08:08, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I've left the Crown Dependency bit in, but it might be better further down? Biofoundationsoflanguage 08:36, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Council/Proposals
This culture, which has influenced literature, farming, navigation and so much of European life, for 4,000 years, and covers places as diverse as Portugal and Asia Minor, would be worthy of its own project. Modern areas still Celtic include Brittany, Cornwall, Ireland, the Isle of Man, Scotland and Wales. Please weigh in at the proposal Chris 04:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Proposed project
There is now a proposed project to deal with the crown dependencies of Guernsey, Isle of Man, and Jersey. Anyone interested in taking part should indicate their interest at WikiProject Council/Proposals. Thank you. John Carter 19:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Monapia?
The article Anyphaenid sac spider also links here (e.g. to Monapia). Don't know exactly why, but it seems to be the name of a subfamily of those spiders. Just noticed this while looking for something else, maybe someone can clarfiy this. --213.168.118.91 19:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Monapia is a (full) Latin name for the Isle of Man. Mauls (talk) 00:43, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

King of Man
Will there be any mention of a recent claim of the throne of the Isle of Man (for which more of, see here: www.royaltyofman.com and a article on IOM Today? Xantharius (talk) 23:46, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Until it has some more credibility than an unsubstantiated claim on a website, I don't think it should have any more importance than my claim to be President of Azerbaijan. Dabbler (talk) 00:38, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I added this item based on the fact that the Queen of England has now recognized David Howe as the rightful heir to the Man monarchy. There is no longer a dispute as to whether or not he holds the title of King. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.26.45.129 (talk) 18:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Buckingham Palace have explicitly stated that they don't recognise any claims, as has the IOM Government. In any event, the sections in this article are summaries, and statements on this claim haven't been included in any of King of Mann, Lord of Mann, or History of the Isle of Man. Mauls (talk) 19:41, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The middle of these is no longer true: King of Mann now has a reference to this. Xantharius (talk) 18:56, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Coinage / Numismatics / Scriphophily (sp?)
While these subjects are of no interest to me, I know that they do interest some people. My wife just got presented with an IoM pound note in her change while shopping, and after a couple of minutes thought I cottoned on to the "Ellan Vannin" as indicating the Isle of Man. IoM coins are not terribly uncommon in the rest of the UK, but it's a number of years since I last saw one. I don't know enough about the money-collecting hobbies, but quite likely there are Wikipedians who do know about them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by A Karley (talk • contribs) 22:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Why not add "Man Island" in the first sentence as one of its names?
Why not add "Man Island" in the first sentence as one of its names? Or is that a wrong name? At least Man Island redirects here.90.190.225.121 (talk) 12:40, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The Isle of Man or Mann is never known as Man Island, presumably the redirect is for the benefit of people who do not know that. Dabbler (talk) 13:14, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Another proposed guideline for "the British Isles"
I have numerous concerns about the current proposal for a guideline for the use of the term British Isles and have written another proposal. My main concerns were that the proposal as it is written here did not walk the line of WP:NPOV, did not have an adequate grounding in current consensus and practice, and did not offer any concrete guidelines per se that an editor could follow or easily understand (in the broadest sense of the term).

My proposed guidelines are here. --sony-youth pléigh 20:36, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Pokerstars?
Is it worth mentioning that Pokerstars is based in the Isle of Man? I believe several other poker sites are based there as well. This seems important, considering Pokerstars is valued at around $3 billion, which is more than the GDP of the entire island. Deepfryer99 (talk) 20:40, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Isle of Sam
Apparently the island has been renamed after the I'd Do Anything contestant Sam -. Does anybody think this is worth mentioning? supercriminal (talk) 18:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * 100% not worth mentioning at all! Mjroots (talk) 18:42, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I think the renaming of the island is pretty important to mention. However, it remains to be seen whether this change will continue on if she ends up not winning the show. Definitley at least deserves a note, if not renaming the article to match even if it turns out to only be for a short period. Independentwoman (talk) 19:06, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Until somebody higher than the Minister of Tourism is involved with the change of name, e.g. approval signed by HM The Queen, then it is a stunt and not noteworthy. I have reverted the second attempt to put this up as fact. Ian Cairns (talk) 18:10, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Table of Contents
Check out the List of basic Isle of Man topics. It serves as a rudimentary table of contents to the subject "Isle of Man". It's not done yet. Maybe you can help?

The Transhumanist 11:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * This would be far better as a portal. I'm not sure at all that this kind of pure index is appropriate for the article namespace. That said, it's an impressive collection of articles. But I think it should be moved off articlespace. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:41, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Re:Isle of Sam
They don't want us to add it, I've tried quite a few times —Preceding unsigned comment added by MagicMan1995 (talk • contribs) 16:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you honestly think that anyone will remember this in six months time? There are millions of facts about the Isle of Man that are not included in this article because they are too insignificant to mention. This is another. Dabbler (talk) 17:53, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I know, I was justreplying to a user's post from above me about the Isle of Sam. =] And people won't remeber this in 6 months time, unless Wikipedia helps people remember it! --MagicMan1995 (talk) 07:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Why should this fact be remembered by anyone other than her family and friends when you can't tell me when women got the vote in the Isle of Man and the Isle of Man article in Wikipedia won't tell you that either. Hint it was years before they did in the UK. Which fact is more important? Dabbler (talk) 10:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I really don't want to start a war with you, so let us comprimise, put both in =] Maybe the reason I can't tell you is becuase it's not in Wikipedia, my point! (it was in1881, the first in the world)--MagicMan1995 (talk) 18:55, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The change of name was a publicity stunt, neither important or interesting in relation to the Isle of Man in general.-Localzuk(talk) 19:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Surely it's easy to distinguish between the island actually being renamed and a publicity stunt using the high media profile of a TV show to gain some PR mileage in order to boot tourism. It's unimportant, not noteworthy and ephemeral. DrFrench (talk) 19:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Main island of the archieplago
What is the area of the main island if the total archipelago has an area of 221 square miles? Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.135.97.184 (talk) 10:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Mann is not part of an archipelago. It does have some islands within itslef, but is not part of an archipelago. It is part of a group of islands, though, known as the British Isles. Il Studioso 23:18, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

The largest island is 220 square miles. Christopedia (talk) 12:08, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Question re Citizenship
I have a question re IoM passports/citizenship. The IoM article currently gives this much of the story:

''Citizenship is covered by UK law, and Manx people are classed as British citizens, although those without a grandparent born in the UK (or who have not lived continuously for a period of five or more years in the UK) do not have the same rights as other British citizens with regard to employment and establishment in the European Union. Citizenship is covered by UK law, and Manx people are classed as British citizens, although those without a grandparent born in the UK (or who have not lived continuously for a period of five or more years in the UK) do not have the same rights as other British citizens with regard to employment and establishment in the European Union.''

I have read this separately on a "Blog" website:

''...resdients of the Isle of Man receive full UK passports which inlcude an extra entry detailing their Manx nationality. Whereas residents of the 2 Channel Islands states - The Bailiwick of Guernsey and The Bailiwick of Jersey receive British Islands passports, which have the following on the front cover: "British Islands, Bailiwick of Jersey" or "British Islands, Bailiwick of Guernsey" So slightly different in that they do not have full UK citizenship like a Manx national does.''BlogLink

Does any one know (A) what is the actual wording on the front cover of an IoM passport; (B) whether the description of the position on the "Blog" is correct; (C) if it is, why do IoM passports not have "British Islands" on the front cover...If there is a difference, is there also a difference in the status of the IoM vis a vis the other two Crown Dependencies?

Regards. Redking7 (talk) 22:38, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * UPDATE: I got this response elsewhere


 * The following points may clarify:


 * Passports issued by the Isle of Man Passport Office say "British Islands - Isle of Man"
 * Isle of Man passports can be issued to any British citizen in the Isle of Man (whether or not that person has "Manx status" under the local employment laws). They can also be issued to Manx-connected British citizens residing in the mainland U.K. or any of the other Crown Dependencies.
 * Persons in the Isle of Man are full British citizens - as are those from the Channel Islands. The nationality status on their passports is "British Citizen."
 * There is no such thing as "Manx nationality". There is such a thing as "Manx status" under IOM employment control legislation but I do not believe this is endorsed on passports. *this is incorrect - see below*JAJ (talk) 23:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Regards. Redking7 (talk) 21:08, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, IOM passports for "Manx" people have a clause endorsed on the inner pages of their passports stating that the holder is not entitled to benefit from EU provisions relating to employment or establishment. Thus I'd speculate that there is a Manx nationality, as this clearly distinguishes between groups of people based on their ethnic origins.


 * That's an EU immigration status, not a citizenship, and is unrelated to being a 'Manx worker' under the employment control status. Establishment under EU law is only available to British Citizens who also have a link with the UK either personally or through their parents or grandparents. It's not ethnic origins, its whether you've ever lived in the UK or not. Mauls (talk) 17:05, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Windmills
I think that placing a section on windmills right at the top of the article gives the windmills too much prominence. Under the list of basic IOM topics it would probably fall under architecture -historic, I would think and thus may come back in when the article is expanded further. For now perhaps it should be left as a see also. --Vannin (talk) 22:41, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Motto?
It would be nice to have a bit more info on the motto, such as its history. Was it chosen to compliment the Manx triskelion?

I have removed those two sentences: ''Interpretations of the motto often stress stability and robustness in the Manx character. Many schools on the island have adapted the motto to promote perseverance and hard work.''

... as I find that a bit florid and thin on information. And maybe the schools have simply adopted the island's motto because it is the island's motto? Also "It stands wherever you throw it" seems more like a description for a toy ("Glows in the dark! Stands wherever you throw it!  Cool battle sounds!") rather than an exhortation for "preseverance and hard work". Maikel (talk) 11:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The story I was raised with, but have no written source for, is it is what Mannanin said to St. Patrick as he went down Snaefell after their big battle (and it was whereever you throw me I will stand), meaning that the wizard would never be totally defeated and thus there would always be some magic on the island even though christianity technically won out.--Vannin (talk) 16:30, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I have found a recent paper on the topic of the Motto Proceedings of the IOM Natural History and Antiquarian Society Volume XI Number 2 Published 2003 ISBN 0 9519141 0 3 Article entitled "Speculation on the Source of Quocunque Jeceris Stabit: King James I of England, Sir Edward Coke and Edward Christian" Author William Jeffcoate. pp. 275 - 281. He summarises that the motto first appeared on Manx coins in 1668, and speculates that there could be linkage with a reported quip made at Court in London by James I in relation to Sir Edward Coke in 1622. Various courtiers were proposed to complete the loop. Could one assume that the initial intended reference was to the armorial charge and that folklore has accrued since? Manninagh Dhooie (talk) 19:57, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Name
Can we have some explanation as to the two names given in the first line (Man and - presumably much rarer? Mann)? And why is one Gaelic name considered to correspond to one English spelling, and another to the other?--Kotniski (talk) 19:30, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * One is not really more rare than the other, just as people will say "the United States of America" or more simply "America", so the "Isle of Man" is also known as "Mann", the double "n" in Mann comes from the Manx language influence. In Manx "Ellan" (means Isle or Island) "Vannin" (means "of Man" i.e. the genitive case) if just Mann is required then Mannin the nominative case is used. Dabbler (talk) 02:35, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see now, thanks:) I had read it as meaning "Isle of Man" or "Isle of Mann". I'll try to format it slightly more clearly, and maybe add a footnote about the Manx names.--Kotniski (talk) 12:07, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The English language has many examples of alternate spellings that are acceptable, both for words and for names. Both 'Man' and 'Mann' are correct, but 'Isle of Man' has become the most used form of the long name, and 'Mann' the most used short name. The latter is no doubt partially because 'Man' could be confused with the general term for a human male! Mauls (talk) 22:21, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

The useage "Mann" does not enjoy the official status of "Man" or "Ellan Vannin" for example would not appear in Acts of Tynwald, coins, banknotes. It is possibly a revival of an archaism, and suggests mildly that the user is inclined towards patriotic/nationalist end of spectrum.Manninagh Dhooie (talk) 19:39, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

The name pronunciation cited form "Ellan Vannin" is incorrect - although the common modern pronunciation is "Ellan" as per the English interpretation of the Manx spelling system, it's actually incorrect. In Manx the pronunciation is actually closer to the Irish "Eilean", something like "Ellyan" in English spelling. This is lost on the majority of Manx residents, who are monoglot English speakers & have pronounced it this way for decades. Indeed the mispronunciation has become pretty much unchallenged - the "Ellan" pronunciation even features in the IOM Government's "Freedom to Flourish" video. I'd speculate that a lot of this is due to the local anthem "Ellan Vannin" which became a staple during the tourist era, when Manx speakers were in short supply. Shame that Bishop Phillip's spelling system didn't make a distinction :)

Postal Services
I would like to see some info on this.91.105.137.23 (talk) 17:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * A link to Isle of Man Post has been added under "Communications".--Drumhollistan (talk) 00:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

979
The article states
 * Inhabited for millenia, the island became a Celtic-Norse community in 979

I see that the Tynwald dates from that year, but I would have thought that Celts and Scandinavians were both present before that date. Rojomoke (talk) 16:51, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Reference to 979 is inappropriate at this point. The so-called Millennium celebrations have importance as a stimulus to the "Heritage" and tourist sectors but in the context of serious historical writing classify as "gimmickry" (see- Isle of Sam). The origins of Tynwald lie partly in Moot hills etc- there is a pre-Norse place-name Tromode (near Douglas) which probably derives from "Mod" meaning assembly. Authoritative source available on-line on Centre for Manx Studies site - Broderick (George): Tynwald: a Manx cult-site and institution of pre-Scandinavian origin? In CMCS 46 (2003) pp. 55 Dabbler (talk) 20:38, 11 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Manninagh Dhooie (talk • contribs) 20:16, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Need reference for Mollie Sugden
I tried to add a note to the article on Mollie Sugden to say that she currently resides in the Isle of Man. I know that she has lived there for many years, and is well known on the Island. She is also listed on List of residents of the Isle of Man. Unfortunately the user UpDown is being awkward, and is demanding a reference for this. (You can read our exchange on his Talk page.) I have seen Mollie's picture in the local papers over the years, but simply do not have the time to trawl through back copies in the papers' offices just to appease one awkward user. Please, does anybody have a reference for the fact that Mollie Sugden currently resides in the Isle of Man? Please respond here. Many thanks, HairyWombat (talk) 19:37, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Despite my comments at Mollie Sugden's talk page that I find you calling me "awkward" unacceptable and advised you to read WP:CIVIL - you have gone ahead and repeated those remarkes in a new post here. I find that very disappoiting.--UpDown (talk) 20:32, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * This is how you described yourself on your own Talk page. HairyWombat (talk) 18:34, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * As I explained before you posted here, that is no reason to use the term like you have. I really do suggest you read WP:CIVIL, because I'm sure I would not be the only person annoyed by your words.--UpDown (talk) 08:00, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Sort order of name
What is the proper sort order for the name of this region? Should it sort under I (i.e. defaultsort "Isle of Man", as written), or M (i.e. defaultsort "Man, Isle of")? Looking at various places in the attached category boxes (which are _usually_ alphabetized), I see it sorted sometimes before, sometimes after Jersey, so it isn't consistent at the moment. John Darrow (talk) 23:48, 22 April 2009 (UTC) I would suggest "Man" because otherwise an index within an index would develop. The ancient and meaningful part of the name is Man (Mannin/Vannin etc.Manninagh Dhooie (talk) 19:28, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Recent developments of note on the Isle of Man - needs to be wikified by someone more wikifluent than me.
In October 2009 the UK government decided to reduce the amount of financial support remitted annually to the Isle of Man Government under a formerly secret VAT arrangement as it was perceived to be unfairly subsidising the Isle of Man Government's spending, allowing it to set signficantly lower personal and business taxes relative to the UK.

The Manx Government, after denying that it was subsidised by the UK for many years, found itself in the position of having to rapidly revise its spending plans in order that its budget continued to be balanced as required by law. At time of writing (11 November 2009) no radical revisions had been announced.

On 11 November 2009 the online newspaper iomtoday.com published what it believed was the essence of the formerly secret VAT sharing formula

Probably because of the perceived sensitivity of the signficant reduction in remittances (aproximately £50 million in 2010 and a further £50 million in 2011), and the relative dependancy of the Isle of Man Government on this annual remittance from the UK (approxiamtely 60% of total income for the Isle of Man Government came via the Agreement) there have been no significant announcements from ministers other than to reassure the very wealthy that they will not be made to pay more in direct tax. Revisions that had made it into the public domain have included reducing support to fishermen and farmers, a suggestion to spend less on private Public Relations contracts and cancellation of free sandwiches for ministers attending lunch time meetings.

Of potentially even more significance to the viability of the Isle of Man, is a move by the EU to pressure the IOM Government to withdraw its zero-ten taxation law, seen as giving unfair advantage to the Isle of Man in persuading companies to register on the Isle of Man, benefit from the arrangement where global income for that company is taxed on the Isle of Man at a rate of 0% (unless they are engaged in specific classes of business such as banking or property development). Whilst registered on the Isle of Man, such companies would be saving the amount they would previously have remitted in tax to their original domicile government, and contribution to the Isle of Man's GNI figure which is used to calculating the amount to be remitted to the Isle of Man Government under the now not so secret VAT agreement.

A third development is the announcement that from April 2010, Manx residents traveling within the United Kingdom would still be able to receive A&E treatment on the UK NHS, but would then be personally responsible for the costs of ambulance evacuation to the Isle of Man, or hospitalisation and treatment within a UK NHS hospital. The implication is that such Manx residents would be wise to take out private medical insurance when travelling in the United Kingdom. The Isle of Man NHS is keen to point out that Manx patients will continue to receive treatment in UK facilities if they are dispatched there by the Isle of Man NHS. (e.g. someone who is diagnosed with a condition in the Isle of Man can receive treatment in a UK facility if the IOM NHS arranges it) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.115.153 (talk) 19:39, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Template:User Manx
Just a note to point out that users may, if they wish, add the Template:User Manx to their User page. HairyWombat (talk) 01:28, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Megalithic culture?
The Ancient times section makes a few references to the Megaliths as a culture, but megalithic structures seem to be a type, used around the world, not a specific culture. References make no note of a "Megalith" culture. Anyone have more info or should this be changed? Kojoteblau (talk) 12:18, 1 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Don't see a problem. The article only makes two mentions of "the Megaliths" culture, and the paragraph it first appears in makes it clear that it existed during the Neolithic period. What else would you call this culture which constructed megaliths? HairyWombat (talk) 03:38, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Seems that it should be "a megalith culture" instead of "The Megaliths" since multiple cultures around the world built megaliths. If there was a specific Megalith culture, then cool, but I can't seem to find any. Naming this one group as "The Megaliths" without any other background would seem to be outside the scope of this project.Kojoteblau (talk) 04:06, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, there was this specific (in area) culture that constructed megaliths. The article also mentions the Ronaldsway and Bann cultures, so this third larger culture really needs to have a name. The problem with "a megalithic culture" is that it implies there were other megatithic cultures on the Island, and there were not. To me, the article makes it clear what is meant by "the Megaliths". I would suggest that, taken in context, it is not misleading. HairyWombat (talk) 04:16, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I think it's just phrasing I'm having an issue with. While there likely weren't other megalithic cultures on the Island, it could easily be assumed by a reader that the megaliths in Ireland, Britain, or even Portugal were constructed by this same Megalith culture. Megalithic seems to be a type of culture, just as Neolithic signifies the era of the culture. You're right about the context, but maybe it should just be lower-case as "the megaliths" so it doesn't look like an actual Named culture while still showing a distinction between them and the Ronaldsway and Bann.Kojoteblau (talk) 04:33, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Ahh, but then there's confusion between the structures and the people that built them. We could just do it like the Manx historical site does, call it Neolithic culture that built the megaliths. Kojoteblau (talk) 04:39, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I didn't realise, but at one time archeologists believed that all megaliths were constructed by a single culture, called the Megaliths. So "the Megaliths" (with a capital 'M') is definately out. The problem with the Neolithic culture is that there were three of them (the megaliths, Ronaldsway, and Bann). I don't know what to do. (I edited the article in between your last two posts, so ignore that.) HairyWombat (talk) 04:49, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Later. All fixed. Now they don't have a name, other than "the megalith builders". HairyWombat (talk) 04:57, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Category:Proposed countries of Europe
I'm not sure why the IoM is in this category. Legally, it is a separate country from the UK, with its own parliament and currency (tied to the Pound Sterling). The UK is responsible for the defence of the IoM, and looks after its foreign affairs through its embassies and consulates (i.e. a Manxman would receive assistance through the British Embassy when abroad, should it be needed). I therefore propose that the category be removed from this article. Mjroots (talk) 08:00, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Fine with me to take it out. It was in Category:Proposed countries and I moved it to Category:Proposed countries in Europe, but you're right that it already is a separate country. Good Ol’factory (talk) 08:45, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * has been nominated for deletion here. Good Ol’factory (talk) 08:24, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

"Good governance"
The lead says that the island's "foreign relations, defence, and ultimate good governance are the responsibility of the Government of the United Kingdom." What exactly does this mean? In particular, what does "good governance" mean in this context? I've always understood it to be a buzzword, as opposed to a clearly defined concept, so it strikes me as little helpful in this enumeration. The article on it says that it is "an indeterminate term used in development literature to describe how public institutions conduct public affairs and manage public resources in order to guarantee the realization of human rights"; quite obviously it can't mean that here because neither is the Isle of Man a developing country, nor does it have human rights issues that would need to be supervised by the UK government. Maybe someone can shed some light on this? Jimmy Fleischer (talk) 15:55, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * valid point. Another way is required to say that the Queen, advised by the UK government, can make an order in council overturning any IoM decision or law.  It did happen back in the pirate radio days when the IoM intended to license a radio station capable of being received throughout the UK.  At the time only the BBC was allowed to do so.  On the advice of the PM, HM made the order in council, and that was the end of the matter.  Afaik that was the only time this right of  ultimate good governance was exercised.  A more appropriate term is required. ClemMcGann (talk) 16:10, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * See the discussion at length in the report on the Crown Dependencies from the UK House of Commons Justice Committee:
 * Quote from Professor Sutton's evidence: "...in the case of the Crown Dependencies what it has come to mean is that the intervention by the United Kingdom should only be where good governance ceases to exist, and that would be where there is really a breakdown in the system of law and order, or civil governance, to the point where outside intervention becomes necessary."
 * The Guernsey Evening Press reported this in a manageable way here: "You could read into that it basically has to be Armageddon before the UK could step in. Professor Sutton added that the concept of good governance had never been judicially defined. So everything remains hypothetical." Man vyi (talk) 18:20, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * And a useful quote from the conclusions of the committee: "The independence and powers of self-determination of the Crown Dependencies are, in our view, only to be set aside in the most serious circumstances. We note that the restrictive formulation of the power of the UK Government to intervene in insular affairs on the ground of good government is accepted by both the UK and the Crown Dependency governments: namely, that it should be used only in the event of a fundamental breakdown in public order or of the rule of law, endemic corruption in the government or the judiciary or other extreme circumstance, and we see no reason or constitutional basis for changing that formulation." Man vyi (talk) 18:33, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your replies. This confirms my intuition that "good governance" is just a nice way of saying that the government can override any domestic IoM policy decisions (although it may not be clear under what circumstances it is supposed to do so), and that it has nothing to do with the trendy politico-lingo buzzword described in the article Good governance. For the time being, I'm going to remove the internal link and replace "good governance" with "good government" (as in "The Crown has ultimate responsibility for the good government of the Island") to stop people from restoring the link. Jimmy Fleischer (talk) 15:59, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

British Isles
The term British Isles was added to this article (Aug 31, 2010), without apparent consensus. Why? GoodDay (talk) 17:32, 20 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Can you show the discussion consensus that says that the term British Isles should not be used? As far as I know the term was included ion the article for years while I have been watching and intermittently editing this page and I do not recall any discussion about removing the term from the article. Dabbler (talk) 18:56, 20 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't know why it was removed, or when, or by whom. The concern here is the subsequent addition, though as you'll see from the current discussion that concern may be misplaced. TFOWR 18:59, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
 * It is interesting that people with no knowledge of the Isle of Man (eg titling the section "Isle of Mann" (with two Ns) and suggesting it should be actually "isle of Man" or possibly "isle of Mann" with a lower case I) should be dictating that what is common usage in the Isle of Man or Mann is unacceptable. But I've got used to the political POV pushing about the term and am no longer too bothered by those who like to pursue their hobbyhorses in Wikipedia. Dabbler (talk) 19:50, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Are there any objections for British Isles being included in the introduction? It would fit in perfectly... ''"The Isle of Man (pronounced /ˈmæn/; Manx: Ellan Vannin,[2] pronounced [ˈɛlʲən ˈvanɪn]), otherwise known simply as Mann (Manx: Mannin, [ˈmanɪn]), is a self-governing British Crown Dependency, located in the Irish Sea between the islands of Great Britain and Ireland within the British Isles." ''

Thoughts? BritishWatcher (talk) 10:27, 24 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The term British Isles is not problematic here as far as I would be concerned. It is a term commonly used by the people of the Isle of Man as well as by the government of the Isle of Man. --MacTire02 (talk) 10:59, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Done as there were no objections. thanks BritishWatcher (talk) 11:12, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Euterpe / Star of India built at Ramsey, Isle of Man in 1863
Hey, somebody needs to mention it :-) A wonderful ship.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.37.188.49 (talk) 05:08, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Tax haven role
Should be mentioned in the intro paragraph in my humble opinion. 85.76.189.136 (talk) 17:00, 22 January 2011 (UTC)


 * The sentence "Today Isle of Man is a well known tax haven" should be removed from the lede paragraph. Wikipedia guidelines suggest the introduction to an article should provide well-rounded informative details to the topic at hand. As it stands, we now have a paragraph outlining the constitutional status of the island as well as a basic location (1st paragraph), a paragraph giving a very brief outline of the island's history (2nd para) and a single-line paragraph stating as fact that the Isle of Man is a tax haven. This is ridiculous. Using this logic, I should be allowed to go to any number of sources, find a suitable reference, and, in the lede to the article on the USA, create a one-line para that states that the USA is an anti-gay, anti-muslim, pro-Christian, war-mongering, anti-democratic state. Personally I do not hold this opinion, but I could easily create such a statement. Such a highly-charged statement needs more than a single line, and is hardly relevant in any case to the intro - it should be located in the economy section. The intro should be about broad topics related to the subject - the people, the constitutional status (if relevant), history, geography, economy, etc. One-liners without counter statements and without context should NOT be included here. For now I am simply going to blank the line for discussion here (HTML comment tag it out). --MacTire02 (talk) 21:39, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * While the Isle of Man may have been a well known tax haven in 1998 according to the reference, I wonder if it is still considered one "Today" twelve or more years later? There have been significant changes in the last decade. I think that it is still a low tax regime but "haven"? Dabbler (talk) 23:19, 23 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I doubt you could still regard it as a tax haven today. Still though, such a status should still, if mentioned, be located under the Economics subheading, and not as a defining characteristic of the Island and ALL its people. Secondly, the statement reads as if the Isle of Man was, is, and always will be a tax haven, and is regarded as such by everyone with not one single person against such a claim. This is why I believe such a statement should be removed, and why I also believe an entire paragraph dedicated to one short sentence in the lede is seriously bordering on undue weight. --MacTire02 (talk) 09:15, 24 January 2011 (UTC)


 * The problem with all this kind of thing is terminology - some see the phrase "tax haven" as pejorative; others as factual. The Government of Man is evidently somewhat sensitive on the topic; their main "Key Facts" document says prominently "...while some may think our competitive tax regime is our major asset..." - evidently word has got around! Entertainingly, Panama, that bastion of all that is right and proper in international law, warns against thinking of the I of M as a tax haven! . According to Shelter Offshore, the Island is "one of the safest and most attractive worldwide tax havens".  I agree it needs thinking about how it is worded, but it's celebrated enough to perhaps merit a mention. It's also noteworthy that Wikipedia pedals falsehoods about some of our offshores. The intro for Sark for example, laughably, says that "Sark's main industry is tourism". Anyone who knows anything about Sark knows that the overwhelmingly biggest industry is offshoring for selected super-wealthy individuals. We could go on. Offshoring is over 30% of the economy of Guernsey but this apparently does not merit the least mention in the intro. I wonder if we are being protected from learning something? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 09:30, 24 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I think perhaps my statement above may have been misread. I'm certainly not against the inclusion of any details regarding the IOM as a tax haven. My problem with the statement was that, the way it was written, almost insinuated that the Isle of Man has only ever been a tax haven and will only ever be one. There was no discussion on when the Isle of Man started to be considered a tax haven and what roles government policy had in this status, as well as the percentage of the economy of the island dependent upon such a status. There was no mentioning of the institutions involved either. Neither was there any discussion as to whether the IOM government agreed with this opinion of its status. The sentence appeared biased and completely out of place. I do however think, considering there is a sizeable public which considers IOM a tax haven, that there is scope for discussion of the IOMs tax status in the Economy section, not in the intro as a one-liner paragraph which in my mind suggests to a non-informed reader, that that is the ONLY think the IOM can be reduced to - i.e. constitutional status and location, brief history, and tax status. What about its people, natural geography, culture, customs, language, etc. etc. If we are to have a para on simply its status as tax haven then why not the rest? --MacTire02 (talk) 18:54, 24 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Sure, it wasn't a well-written or sourced/contextualised line - I wasn't challenging your delete, just discussing the general point. It would be interesting to know what the government of Man and economists put on it as figures, eg, what % contribution to the local economy is down to the low-tax regime. If this is large, then I would have thought it is worth describing in the main article text and summarising in the intro - it certainly is a notable feature of the island, along with the TT and the unique parliamentary structure. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 19:20, 24 January 2011 (UTC)


 * As the words "tax haven" don't even appear in the body, they shouldn't be in the lede. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 01:17, 25 January 2011 (UTC)


 * As I said, there should be material on it in the main article text as well. I'm actually quite concerned that there is no virtually no mention of the offshoring industry in the articles about the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. I wonder if we are seeing the results of censoring by those industries? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 09:56, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Famous residents section
Do we really need this here as well as having the List of residents of the Isle of Man? It requires frequent maintenance, decisions whether someone is "really notable" enough for inclusion on the Main page and it was seem better to have just the one page with a link as is common in other articles.

I propose merging the information, if it isn't there already, into List of residents of the Isle of Man and deleting all the individual names on this page leaving the link for those interested. Any comments or other suggestions? Dabbler (talk) 11:54, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Sounds good, making the list a see also. Such lists are unseemly at any rate. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:49, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Jamesinderbyshire's Discussion
Jamesinderbyshire wants to discuss about whether or not there should be a useless comment in the article. So what do you think, should the article be cluttered by comments? --91.10.40.1 (talk) 11:57, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, my mistake, I assumed without looking too closely that we were working on an important bit of article text and hadn't realised it was commented out. I have self-reverted. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 11:59, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Fauna and flora, and the Manx cat in particular
It's pretty absurd that IoM's most famous export is entirely missing from the article. Not only does there need to be a section about the unusual insular wildlife of Mann generally (the four-horned sheep, giant millipedes, etc., as well as the obvious cats, and there are surely some indigenous plant varieties worth noting), but the importance of the Manx cat as a national symbol needs to be covered; the symbols section (despite the plural heading) only discusses the triskelion. I've touched on this at the Manx cat article itself, but a lot more depth could be gone into here. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 09:21, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Not everyone who contributes has knowledge about such topics. This is why it's a free open encyclopaedia - to allow users who do have such knowledge to contribute that type of information. In other words, just be bold and add the content. Just make sure that the information you add is verifiable and backed up by the relevant references and sources. Mac Tíre   Cowag  09:39, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * All of these topics are covered in the Norwegian (bokmåls) Wikipedia. Just translate from there. --Finn Bjørklid (talk) 00:05, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Space Industry Employees
I don't know the exact number of people working in the space industry in IoM, but I'm damn sure it's more than 15 people. Not sure if that's vandelism or ignorance. Someone should either correct that number or delete it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.14.183.26 (talk) 13:43, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The claim is well sourced from isleofman.com (Oct 2010) but the number given in the article is actually 16 full time employees. It is of interest and as such I don't think it should be deleted, but if you can find a more reliable or up-to-date source, I recommend editing it with the full citation.  For a population of 80,000 - 16 full time employees in the space industry is high.


 * What I don't understand is why the article sometimes refers to the Isle, rather than the Island (or Isle of Man) which are the local alternatives and why in this context the Island is not capitalized.  Robert Currey   talk  17:46, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Correcting the motto
I think the motto should read, "Wherever you throw me, I will stand", rather than "it" will stand.

Another WP site has it @ "I," which makes more sense bc it's expressing the resilience of the people. "It" makes it impersonal and vague: what's "it"?

Eternal Vigilante (talk) 13:22, 10 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Stabit in Latin is the third person singular, "he", "she" or "it". If they wanted to use "I" they would have the first person singular, which would be "stabo" (I think). Dabbler (talk) 13:33, 10 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The official translation of the motto, whether right or wrong, is "Whithersoever you throw it, it will stand". As this is an official motto we should adhere to the official translation. Mac Tíre   Cowag  14:07, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Amendments
''In 1866 greater autonomy was restored to the island's parliament and a full transition to democracy began. The Island quickly developed as a finance centre and tourist destination, becoming increasingly prosperous during the 20th century. During both the First and Second World Wars the island was used as a location for internment camps for Central Powers and Axis citizens and suspected sympathisers.[29]''

This section isn't in chronological order and leaves the timeline open to interpretion. There doesn't appear to be a clear line between the unsourced autonomy in 1866 (source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/7515569.stm#facts ) to the development of the finance sector and tourism - the word "quickly" particulalry could suggest that finance and tourism developed in the 1870's. The commencement of tourism at the end of 1800's and its rise and decline since the 1960's should be noted with the reference re WW1 and WW2 then mentioned as in chronological order particuarly considering that the internment camps used the guest houses built for the earlier rise in the tourist industry previously mentioned. Finally, the rise in the finance sector in the 1980's (http://www.gov.im/iomfinance/regulation/ipa.xml) to current stagnation should be noted(only mention i can find is an outspoken MHK http://www.manxradio.com/newsread.aspx?id=51649, with official job numbers difficult to obtain)


 * Agreed. The order needs to be changed in this. This happens when sections are missing information ans someone comes along and adds in the correct information without changing the context in which that information is placed. The development of tourism and finance in one sentence does need to be changed - tourism, although you suggested it started at the end of the 1800s, actually started earlier than that. The finance sector only really took off in the 1980s but mention of its start in 1973 is probably more appropriate. Mac Tíre  Cowag  16:03, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

''The Isle of Man is located in the middle of the northern Irish Sea, approximately equidistant from the islands of Great Britain and Ireland, within the British Isles. The closest land is southern Scotland. It is 52 kilometres (32 mi) long and, at its widest point, 22 kilometres (14 mi) wide. It has an area of around 572 square kilometres (221 sq mi).[32] Besides the island of Mann itself, the political unit of the Isle of Man includes some nearby small islands: the seasonally inhabited Calf of Man, Chicken Rock on which stands an unmanned lighthouse, St Patrick's Isle and St Michael's Isle. Both of the latter are connected to the mainland by permanent roads/causeways.''

"seasonally inhabited Calf of Man". Wardens live there much of the year (http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/mnh/heritage/countryside/calfofman2.pdf) not sure where the "seasonal" suggestion originates. Source?


 * In answer to this one. Your source doesn't say anything about duration of the stay of the wardens. Seasonal does not mean that someone stays according to a set number of Spring, Summer, Autumn, or Winter. A football association season is 9 months long. A GAA season is 10 months long. A hurricane season is 6 months long. A season is simply an undefined period of time. Its definition comes from context. Regarding the use of the word "seasonal" here I believe it is entirely appropriate and is verifiable. I have supplied the reference. Mac Tíre   Cowag  16:03, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

''At the 2006 interim census,[38] Mann was home to 80,058 people, of whom 26,218 resided in the island's capital, Douglas. Most of the population was born in the British Isles, with 47.6% born in Mann, 37.2% born in England, 3.4% in Scotland, 2.1% in Northern Ireland, 2.1% in the Republic of Ireland, 1.2% in Wales and 0.3% born in the Channel Islands. The remaining 6.1% were born elsewhere in the world.''

Why the change from referencing Isle of Man to Mann?


 * This is a long term dispute, with some editors changing Isle of Man to Mann and vice versa. In the ensuing clean ups "erratics" such as this get left behind. This has been fixed. Mac Tíre   Cowag  16:03, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

The United Kingdom is responsible for the island's defence and ultimately for good governance, and for representing the island in international forums, while the island's own parliament and government have competence over all domestic matters.[39]

There should be some mention here i feel that the Isle of Man parliament/government will often follow UK decisions. This would seem relevant to a reader not familiar with the island. Examples off the top of my head would be the smoking ban in public places where the IoM govt decided to announce this after the UK government announced theirs or where the Immigration rules of the island quickly followed the UK Govts. This would allow understanding that the laws in the IoM closely follow the UK and avoids suggestion that the island is naive enough to ignore its neighbours with bigger resources to investigate issues. One of the major exceptions to this that should be noted is the lack of Freedom of Information act which, for example, means that it is difficult to prove or disprove many rumours of overspending on many government projects.


 * Not really an issue for this article. Discussion on this could be done in the relevant Politics of the Isle of Man or Tynwald pages. This article is to give the reader an overview of the Isle of Man with as much information as possible without overburdening the reader or the reader's computer (pages with too much info can slow down both servers and the reader's computer). Also, to you and me the legislation enacted by the government is more than likely following on from the UK. However, you would need to prove this through the relevant sources. The smoking ban as a piece of national legislation originated in Ireland, equidistant from the Isle of Man. It could be argued it came from Ireland and not the UK - simply hastened by the UKs own introduction. Mac Tíre  Cowag  16:03, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

''The island's parliament, Tynwald, dates from AD 979 or earlier, and claims to be the oldest continuously existing ruling body in the world.[40] Tynwald is a bicameral or tricameral legislature, comprising the House of Keys (directly elected by universal suffrage) and the Legislative Council (consisting of indirectly elected and ex-officio members). These two bodies meet together in joint session as Tynwald.''

This section from the MLC wiki-page would be of more interest than "(consisting of indirectly elected and ex-officio members)" - "The MLCs are elected by the House of Keys by secret ballot for a term of 4 years. Four retire every 2 years, so four MLCs are elected at a time. A MLC must be at least 21 years old and resident in the Isle of Man."


 * There is already a link to both Tywnald and the Legislative Council. If a reader requires further information they can follow those links. No further clarification or detail is necessary here. Mac Tíre  Cowag  16:03, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

''Under British law, Mann is not part of the United Kingdom. However, the UK takes care of its external and defence affairs, and retains paramount power to legislate for the island.[41] There are no independent military forces on Mann; from 1938 there was a (now disbanded) Manx Regiment of the British Territorial Army, which saw extensive action during the Second World War. There is an independent Isle of Man police force, which is controlled directly by the Isle of Man Government, but which nonetheless voluntarily submits to inspection by the UK inspectorate of police.[42]''

Not really sure of the reference of action in WWII as "extensive". There should be mention that Manx people still join the British Armed forces and mention the HMS Ramsey affiliated to the town of the same name (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/operations-and-support/surface-fleet/mine-countermeasure/sandown-class/hms-ramsey/)


 * The regiment participated in El-Alamein, other theatres of Egypt and Libya, Eritrea, Crete, Greece, Italy, France, Netherlands, Britain, Belgium, Germany, etc. That's 3/4 of the European theatre and under anyone's definition is fairly extensive. However, I've added in the HMS Ramsey. Mac Tíre   Cowag  16:03, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

''Citizenship in Mann is governed by UK law. Passports issued by the Isle of Man Passport Office say "British Islands - Isle of Man" on the cover but the nationality status stated on the passport is simply "British Citizen". Although Manx passport holders are British citizens, because Mann is not part of the European Union, those without a parent or grandparent either born or resident for more than five consecutive years in the UK do not have the same rights as other British citizens with regard to employment and establishment in the EU. Isle of Man passports can be issued to any British citizen in Mann (whether or not that person has "Manx status" as an Isle of Man worker under the local Isle of Man employment laws). They can also be issued to Manx-connected British citizens residing in the UK or any of the other Crown Dependencies.''

There should be mention that people moving to the island without Manx parents/grandparents require a work permit for the first five years they live on ths Isle of Man. (http://www.gov.im/ded/employmentRights/workpermits.xml) Employers are expected to ensure that there is no other Manx worker who can fulfill that job. Manx people are free to move for work (and for education) in the UK without a requirement for a work permit.


 * There are more conditions than just that first line you mentioned. We can't put all of them down on the article. The wording as exists is constructed using catch-all phrasing to avoid leaving any possible combinations out of question. Your second sentence has no source and I can't find any, so either find a source which states that or it can't be included. Sourced will also need to be found for the last sentence. Mac Tíre   Cowag  20:29, 11 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Source for first request via from a pdf on the link already provided: http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/ded/employmentRights/gde20100709.pdf . The second i can only find through to another wikipedia link from what i can find http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_relations_of_the_Isle_of_Man#Work_permits_and_immigration


 * Wikipedia can not be used as a source on Wikipedia itself - that is what's known as circular referencing. Such referencing is discouraged as there is nothing stopping anyone from inserting incorrect information on one page and using that page as a source for other incorrect information on another page. On the specific point at hand - the section is about Manx citizenship, not about the rights of migrant workers on the Island. Such information belongs in the article External relations of the Isle of Man. Mac Tíre   Cowag  18:29, 13 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Understand and agree circular referencing which is why i said could only find the wikipedia link. expect the offending section from that page will be deleted as well as it is unsourced (although anybody from the island could confirm the point as fact). This easily links/follows on the existing comments, not sure why it can only be placed on a seperate article?


 * First, a point on housekeeping. I have asked you on several occasions but it appears I must ask you again. Can you please sign your comments using 4 tildes ~ or by clicking on the pen symbol in the edit options menu just above the edit box (fourth icon from the left). This makes it easier for all editors to see who has said what in the conversation. Also can you please format the layout of your comments by indenting. To indent you just have to place a colon before your comment and just add one to each subsequent comment. E.g. I have placed 5 colons before this comment of mine, you should place 6 colons before your comment. It makes it easier to read the discussion as well as easier to find what you have written. It did after all take me a while to find this comment of yours. Regarding your comment on people moving to the island from the UK needing a work permit for the first 5 years, it can not go into the citizenship section - that would be like including information on the steam packet company in the sports section. It could possibly go into the following section, so if you can come up with the phrasing that would be great. Mac Tíre  Cowag  21:25, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

''The largest political party is the recently established Liberal Vannin Party, which promotes greater Manx independence and more accountability in Government. A nationalist pressure group Mec Vannin advocates the establishment of a sovereign republic.[46]''

I think a mention of the Manx Labour party should be there rather than Mec Vannin who aren't a political party. Mec Vannin could perhaps be in a section regarding nationalism but the wording should not leave the reader in a position where they may be left thinking that Mec Vannin have any influence. The most notable recent visible contributions of the nationalism campaign on the island is after all just graffiti daubed on peoples walls in 2010 which Mec Vannin didn't admit links to but didn't distance themselves.


 * The sentence literally states "nationalist pressure group Mec Vannin". It does not call the group a party. The positioning of the group, as one of very few pressure groups or political groups is relevant and belongs in this section. To be honest I think only people who are anti-nationalist (rather than nationalist, non-nationalist or apathetic to nationalism or politics) could construe the wording as indicating the group had a lot of influence. Besides, it is adequately sourced. I hardly think an entire nationalism section with a single liner on Mec Vannin and a couple of sentences on graffiti is appropriate for an article for a geopolitical entity. I inserted information and a link on the Manx Labour Party. Mac Tíre   Cowag  20:29, 11 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Considering some of the other information on this page thats rejected, i hardly think that Mec Vannin belong on this page. They're not that important and do not represent all Nationalists


 * Why not? The group may not represent all Manx nationalists, but they have had representation in the form of MHKs and are still an active grouping. Your view that they are not important is rather subjective and would need sourcing if it was to be included in the article. There are of course independent nationalist political figures such as Phil Gawne, but considering we already have information on Liberal Vannin, itself a mildly nationalist party, as well as Mec Vannin, and considering the non-partisan aspect of Manx politics, I hardly think it would be a good thing to list every single MHK or MLC, but neither do I think leaving out information which is pertinent to Manx nationalism, something which is a regular feature among the various groupings in the British Isles, is a good idea either. Mac Tíre   Cowag  18:29, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

''The Manx government promotes island locations for making films by contributing to the production costs. Since 1995, over eighty films have been made on the island.''

Mention of the film industry should not ignore the fact that the government film investment of £34m only recouped £6.7m due to poorly grossing films http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2011/jun/17/isle-of-man-film-industry.


 * Agreed and done. Mac Tíre   Cowag  20:29, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

''Property on the Isle of Man is expensive, the average price being over £270,000, almost double the North West England average. The island is only 221 square miles, which means a limited supply of building land; population has increased 12% in the last ten years, compared with the UK average of 5%. Income has also risen at more than twice the UK rate.''

If we are stating that property "is expensive", perhaps we should also state that there has been a reduction in house sales in recent years http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/isle-of-man-news/slump_in_house_sales_in_island_1_2871337. There are many houses remaining on the market for many years which could suggest overpricing of homes. References for this are difficult to find due to the nature of estate agents


 * Without the sources though we can't do anything about it. Wikipedia is not about the truth (everyone's definition of the truth varies) - Wikipedia is about verifiability. If it can't be verified it's up for deletion. The link you posted, while indeed suggesting a decline, is no longer current (2010 - what's the situation in 2011), it still declares house prices well above the £270,000 mark. Mac Tíre  Cowag  20:29, 11 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Well in that case is the average house price over £270k in 2011? Has the population increased 12% in the last 10 years from 2011?


 * To be honest, having looked again at the section, I have decided to delete it altogether. There was no information that was specific to the Isle of Man (other than the 270,000 figure), and none of it was backed up. The sentence on population and income growth was not linked in in any meaningful way and appeared entirely subjective. Mac Tíre  Cowag  18:29, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

''For first-time buyers this is a real problem. Many young people are opting to move to the UK because otherwise they cannot afford to move out of their parents' houses. Tynwald has recently approved an extra £2.8 million to fund the house-purchase assistance scheme which will help build affordable housing and offer grants to first time buyers.[citation needed]''

"Many young people are opting to move to the UK because otherwise they cannot afford to move out of their parents' houses." This sounds like more opinion and am suprised this has been allowed, where's the source??


 * Agreed. And removed. Mac Tíre   Cowag  20:29, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

''The main telephone provider on the Isle of Man is Manx Telecom. At present, the island has two mobile operators: Manx Telecom, previously known as Manx Pronto, and Sure. For a short time, Cloud9 operated as a third mobile operator on the island, but has since withdrawn. Broadband internet services are available through four local providers which are Wi-Manx, Domicilium, Manx Computer Bureau and Manx Telecom. The island does not have its own ITU country code, but is accessed via the UK's country code (+44) and the island's telephone numbers are part of the UK telephone numbering plan with local dialling codes 01624 for landlines and 07524, 07624 and 07924 for mobiles.''

There should be a little bit of background to Manx Telecom as they are such a large provider on the Isle of Man. The company was formed by British Telecom in 1986 (http://www.manxtelecom.com/company/over-120-years-of-history.aspx) and seperated from the company to mmO2 in 2001 (http://www.investegate.co.uk/article.aspx?id=200312121000031769T)


 * Disagree. The article is about the Isle of Man, not Manx Telecom. WP must provide equal coverage, irrespective of size - otherwise it risks running into bias territory. The only time WP provides unequal coverage is when it comes to subjects such as science (where fringe theories are outweighed), etc. Any extra info on Manx Telecom belongs in the Manx Telecom article. Mac Tíre   Cowag  20:29, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

''There is no insular television service and local transmitters retransmit analogue broadcasts of BBC One and BBC Two (with BBC North West regional programmes), ITV1 (with ITV Granada regional programming) and Channel 4. Freeview is available through the local transmitters with a limited local service of digital terrestrial television being shown. In areas where local geography is favourable, terrestrial television (including digital terrestrial) can be received direct from transmitters located in the United Kingdom or Republic of Ireland, with all freeviews services being available in these areas.''

There is no analogue broadcast on the Isle of Man since 2009. There should be mention that the Freeview provision on the isle of man is less than the UK as the relay masts on the island have a smaller capacity than the transmitters from the UK (http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/isle-of-man-news/digital_d_day_could_be_disappointing_for_some_1_1790759)


 * Done. Mac Tíre   Cowag  20:29, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

''Mann has three newspapers, all weeklies, and all owned by Isle of Man Newspapers. The Isle of Man Courier (distribution 36,318) is free and distributed to homes on the island. The other two newspapers are Isle of Man Examiner (circulation 13,276) and the Manx Independent (circulation 12,255).[50]''

If this mentions that all newspapers are owned by IoM Newspapers, there should be mention that Isle of Man Newspapers is in turn owned by the UK company, Johnston Press (http://www.johnstonpress.co.uk/jpplc/ourbusiness/publishingdivision/division.jsp?ref=23)


 * Agreed and done. Mac Tíre  Cowag  10:57, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

''The island has a total of 688 miles (1,107 km)[51] of public roads, all of which are paved. In areas denoted by derestricted signs in the Isle of Man, there is no overriding national speed restriction; only local speed limits are set. Rules for reckless driving and most other driving regulations are enforced in a manner similar to the UK.[52] There is a comprehensive bus network, operated by the government owned bus operator, Bus Vannin.''

There should be mention here that in addition to the government owned bus operator there is one coach operator called Protours who have run many government contracts and helped move tourists around the island. In the period 2009 to 2011 Bus Vannin has renewed its fleet with 3 sets of new buses.(1 - http://www.manxradio.com/newsread.aspx?id=34647, 2 - http://www.wrightbus.com/uploads_documents/IOMorderfinal.doc, 3 - http://www.gov.im/lib/news/dccl/firsttwonewmerce.xml). In 2011 the government awarded contracts to its own in-house bus operator which Protours have claimed has meant it has had to re-consider their future. As of September 2011 Protours has reduced its workforce and is re-considering their future. (http://www.energyfm.net/cms/news_story_161662.html)


 * A bus network is not the same as a tour or coach service. A bus network is provided for public transport, while a tour or coach service is generally for private hire for tours, expeditions, rental to and from games, concerts, weddings, etc. They are not the same thing. Regarding the updating of the fleet - I don't think that is pertinent to an article about a semi-independent state. You wouldn't have information on the UK page about the BBC getting new computers, or on the USA page about United Airlines ordering new aircraft. That type of information is best left to the article in question - in this case the article Bus Vannin. Mac Tíre  Cowag  10:57, 12 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Coach service has been key to the IoM for tourism as well as running many government services. They're not just a holiday travel company that you may get where you live


 * There are many coach services in Ireland but none of these are mentioned on the article about Ireland. Coach services are not official state services. They may be paid for by the state, but they are not state services. Being key for tourism does not make a coach service a bus network. What government services are you speaking of? In other words, is the service notable - i.e. would someone from Richmond, Virginia or from Canberra want to know about it to get an idea of what the Manx government provides in terms of transport? Think WP:NOTE. Mac Tíre   Cowag  18:29, 13 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Is someone from Richmond, Virginia or from Canberra going to be interested in all the information in the (largely unreferenced) section on this page about the Manx language which the article confirms (using now historic 2001 figures?!) that just 2.2% of the population on the island claim to have any knowledge of (thats knowledge of, not fluent Manx speakers and thats including many younger people that the article suggests have now studied it at school, some apparently as a second language). Surely much of this section should be correctly referenced and be on the Manx language article? Will it be of interest to those people in Richmonds that there are degree's available in the language (amongst a host of many other subjects available); that there are apparently Manx language playgroups (is it even plural), that there are two phrases in moghrey mie and fastyr mie that exist in the Manx language; that there's no differentiation of evening and afternoon in the language; that you can buy chips cheese and gravy on the island as you can in most greasy take aways in Britain; that there's an annual game of Cammag (that the source confirms was historically a national sport) and is now played once a year; will they care about the legends and folklore in some sections of the article


 * First off, this article is about the Isle of Man. The information people will want to know are general information on the more important aspects as well as official details. As Manx is one of two languages with official status in the Isle of Man it would be of great interest to many people, irrespective of the numbers who speak it and to what degree they speak it. 2001 figures are used as there are no figures more recent than that that are verifiable - census 2011 figures have not yet been released for the number of speakers of Manx. Much of this section is already included and indeed expanded upon in the relevant article. And yes Manx language playgroups is indeed in the plural - ever heard of Mooinjer Veggey? As a speaker of Manx very much in contact with those in the Manx language community I can guarantee you that there are more than one - indeed there is even growing demand for a Manx language kindergarden. You say there are a host of many other subjects available - this is news to me. Are they all entirely through Manx or only partly through Manx - after all, the section is about the Manx language, not education in general. The language is dealt with here as languages are dealt with in every other article dealing with a semi-, or fully sovereign geopolitical entity. Unless of course you want to give the impression that there is no Manx language, that all vestiges of Manx culture, heritage, tradition are dead and that the Manx ceased to exist. You seem to be peddling the line of someone who wants the IoM to simply be another county of England. You want references to the Manx language removed. You want references to Manx nationalism removed. You want references to Manx culture removed. You want references to Manx varieties of sport removed. It very much strikes me that you are not interested in creating or contributing to an encyclopaedia. You claim some editors, and the content of this article, smacks of a Celticist agenda, while at the same time you yourself would have the article cleansed of anything that could be remotely considered Celtic! Mac Tíre   Cowag  21:25, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Not at all, I want the page to be a realistic overview of the Isle of Man. You personally restrict what topics are allowed on the article deciding that some content should be on articles of their own if you seem them not relevant to the page. But because you study the Manx Language you deem that a whole section of unreferenced (not saying it isn't true but my point is that you do insist everything else is referenced) is relevant to this page in the context you want to create. Yet if it was other content you would dictate that it should belong in a page of its own. What you appear to normally suggest (based on your previous judgements) is a mention of the Manx language and confirmation that there has been some interest in recent years, then the other detail should be on its own page and fully referenced. Thats if you stick to the standards that you've set out. You certainly wouldn't allow things to be added by others if they gave the reference of "As a speaker of Manx very much in contact with those in the Manx language community I can guarantee you that there are more than one - indeed there is even growing demand for a Manx language kindergarden." As someone who lives here I can tell you that of course there is a Manx language community and long may it last but Manx is very infrequently used, and no I'm not Dougy born. Do you want to know the most common usage of Manx on the island? Its one word - "yessir". Manx "varieties" of sports? Varieties? You mean the game thats played once a year? The Isle of Man is not another county of England, however in reality it is far, far more British now than Celtic no matter what opposing text is put on Wikipedia. The Celtic references here are important parts of our long history, and we maintain reminders of it around us all the time - in Museums, Celtic crosses, school in St Johns and of course the 8 Manx words that 16 year olds seem to generally remember when they leave school. I say remember, of course i mean just about pronounce, but seemingly can't spell. There are obviously exceptions to the rule and maybe in 10 years time there will be an increase in knowledge and maybe there'll be two Cammag games a year. But to me, an encyclopedia is about being being accurate - not about being selective and creating a picture that one person wants it to be — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.28.11.163 (talk) 08:32, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * These sorts of ad hominem attccks on each other's motives and intentions are not appropriate and both of you should stop.
 * To the unnamed User, your persistent inability to follow Wikipedia etiquette as requested by signing and indenting your postings reduces the chance that anyone will take you seriously here. Regardless of your actual motives, many Wikipedia editors will perceive you as an anonymous troll.
 * This article is not the best place for detailed information which is given elsewhere, it is intended to give an overview, so where there is a Main article details can be restricted a bit. However, it should not overemphasise what is different and "exotic" at the expense of the mundane. This is not a tourist brochure, although the Isle of Man does have many unique features, including its own language which is undergoing a bit of revival, it is not going to be anyone's primary means of communication outside the home anytime soon that should be clear to a new reader. On the other hand, the Manx Celtic culture does differentiate it from the closest bits of England, Cumbria, which were originally just as Celtic but have been overwhelmed because they are too closely attached to the non-Celtic bits of England. The survival and revival of such Celticism is a feature of the Isle of Man which is of importance to the general reader.
 * Please try and keep the discussion to what should be in the article, not each other, please remember the Wikipedia NPOV (neutral point of view) policy and please sign your posts! Dabbler (talk) 10:52, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

''The Isle of Man Sea Terminal in Douglas is served by frequent ferries to and from Liverpool and Heysham and more limited summer-only services to and from Belfast and Dublin. All ferries are operated by the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company.''

This isn't accurate. The Isle of Man Sea Terminal in Douglas is served year round by frequent ferries to and from Heysham. In the summer months frequent ferries also run to and from Liverpool with a much reduced service in the winter. There are also limited summer-only services to and from Belfast and Dublin. All ferries are operated by the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company who have a user agreement in place for exclusive regular passenger ferry usage of the Sea Terminal until 2020 (http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/isle-of-man-news/steam_packet_abiding_by_user_agreement_select_committee_1_1787977)


 * Agreed that this should be changed to reflect that. And done. Mac Tíre   Cowag  10:57, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

''The only commercial airport on the island is the Isle of Man Airport at Ronaldsway. There are scheduled and chartered flights to numerous airports in the United Kingdom and Ireland, as well as charter and occasional scheduled services to airports in France, the Netherlands, Spain and Switzerland.''

There are for sure occasional charters to Switzerland and Spain, but the other countries lack sources for a reason. There are many ad-hoc charters, but a list would be misleading as too infrequent to be of relevance. Of much more relevance would be Aer Aranns codeshare with Etihad Airways on flights to the Isle of Man enabling international flight connections to be booked to the Isle of Man via Dublin airport.


 * Best to remove named countries (you can charter a plane anywhere) and simply state "further afield". Agree Aer Arann should be included. Mac Tíre  Cowag  10:57, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Ronaldsway Airport was originally a Royal Navy base later developed into the main airport on the Isle of Man. http://www.iom-airport.com/virtual/history/. There were two further military airfields in the north of the island at Jurby and Andreas, both former RAF training bases. Whilst both runways are still in place, the Jurby site is now mainly used for motorsport, light industry and is also home to the new Isle of Man prison (http://ukga.com/airfield/jurby) whilst the Andreas site is a private strip available for leisure and sports flying. (http://www.manxpilots.com/IOM_Airfields_-_Andreas.html)


 * Disagree on the inclusion of this. This section is about current transport in the IoM - not about the current uses for previous facilities. Mac Tíre  Cowag  10:57, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

''The island used to have an extensive narrow-gauge railway system, both steam-operated and electric, but the majority of the steam railway tracks have been taken out of service and the track removed. Currently there is a steam railway which runs between Douglas and Port Erin, an electric railway which runs between Douglas and Ramsey and an electric mountain railway which climbs Snaefell. The lines are mostly operated for the benefit of tourists, though some people use them for commuting.''

A comparison here could be made to the Isle of Wight where commuter train services have been maintained in modern times where as the Isle of Man has pulled up much track and used the remaining track for heritage purposes. To avoid links being suggested to the reader that this was a similar circumstance to Dr Beaching in the UK, it should be stated that these lines were pulled up prior to the finance industry being developed by the Isle of Man government when tourist numbers had collapsed and when there was greater competition from buses (http://www.iomguide.com/steamrailway.php). There have been attempts in the past to encourage commuters onto the trains during TT but they are unsuccessful as the services are twice as expensive and much slower than the existing bus network. The section "The lines are mostly operated for the benefit of tourists, though some people use them for commuting" is misleading.


 * A comparison could also be made with Ireland and many other locations. Maintaining commuter services while removing other lines is a common feature of rail transport throughout the western world. The last line, though, should be removed - it is unsourced and potentially unverifiable. Mac Tíre  Cowag  12:20, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

''The Isle of Man has become an enclave for emerging space travel companies, employing fifteen people. A number of the competitors in the Google Lunar X Prize, a $30 million competition for the first privately funded team to send a robot to the moon, are based on the Island. The team summit for the X Prize was held on the Island in October 2010. In 2010 the Island was named the fifth most likely nation to reach the moon next. [53]''

The enclave is supposed to be more than space travel companies. There are companies such as CVI Technical Optics (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/offshorefinance/8644850/Lift-off-for-Isle-of-Mans-quest-to-join-space-race.html) producing some small components and so the enclave will have more than 15 people employed which i am suprised has been allowed to be stated on here without immediate deletion. There should be some context added to this section as it appears to have otherwise been lifted from a government press release. There should be a mention that the Isle of Man has become attractive for basing offices here for tax reasons. There should also be a mention that there were sections of a space station recently bought to the Island and stored at Jurby Airfield as this did make international news. Their presence however could be seen as a PR event as there are no clear sources to confirm whether they will be refurbished on the Isle of Man or (as also suggested) returned back to Russia. This lack of confirmation was despite the government appearing to be very involved in talking about their presence on the island.


 * I have deleted the number of people employed. No sources indicate the amount shown - indeed I can't find out how many are employed. Inserted your reference in the relevant section. I also removed the word enclave. It may be possible to describe the IoM as a space commerce exclave but it is certainly not an enclave. If it was a space commerce enclave there would be no space commerce there at all, but there would be in the UK and Ireland. The offshore concept of the IoM for tax reasons is discussed elsewhere. The space station sections is important and I've included it. The final two sentences are not encyclopaedic; the use of "could be" is speculative. The entire sentence is hypothetical, biased and lacks sourcing. Also who could see it as a PR event? All these need sourcing. The last sentence also includes weasel words (appearing to be involved) - either they are or they are not. Mac Tíre  Cowag  12:20, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

''The culture of the Isle of Man is influenced by its Celtic, and to a lesser extent its Norse, origins. However, its close proximity to the UK, popularity as a UK tourist destination, and recent mass immigration by British migrant workers has meant that British influence has been dominant since the Revestment period. Recent revival campaigns have attempted to preserve the surviving vestiges of Manx culture after a long period of Anglicisation, and significant interest in the Manx language, history and musical tradition has been the result.''

I think this section again is lacking of information and context. Something along the lines of "The culture of the Isle of Man was historically influenced by its Celtic, and to a lesser extent its Norse, origins. However, its close proximity to the UK and successful promotion by the Isle of Man government as a tourist destination in the late 1800's to the 1960's had an influence on the cultural make up of the country. In the 1980's, the Isle of Man government appealed to UK finance companies to set up subsidaries on the island in order to boost the Manx economy. In order to fill positions in the industry with skilled, qualified and/or experienced workers, many people moved to the island highlighting the British influence that has been dominant since the Revestment period. There have been continual revival campaigns to attempted to preserve the historic Celtic culture. As a result there has been an increase in interest in the Manx language, history and music."


 * Historically is incorrect. Last I checked there was Manx traditional music. There was an active language revival movement. You can still see the Celtic influence in the use of a traditional Celtic script on certain coins and organisations. Other Celtic influences which still exist include Hop-tu-naa and Manx folklore. These still exist. To say Manx culture was historically influenced by its Celtic origins would be to suggest that no Celtic influence remains at all. The sentences about the popularity of the Island as a UK tourist destination is fine as is - any supplementary information would simply be repetition of information already present in the article. Your point on the 1980s excludes others who came to the Island for other reasons (construction, IT, hotelier, etc.). I think the current wording is fine and quite rightly does not delve too deeply into unnecessary details. The section is, after all, one which is concerned with culture, not details of the workforce. Mac Tíre   Cowag  13:42, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

''The Manx language is closely related to the Irish language and Scottish Gaelic. By the middle of the 20th century only a few elderly native speakers remained: the last of them, Ned Maddrell, died on 27 December 1974. By then a scholarly revival had begun to spread to the populace and many had learned Manx as a second language. The first native speakers of Manx (bilingual with English) in many years have now appeared: children brought up by Manx-speaking parents. Primary immersion education in Manx is provided by the Manx government: since 2003, the former St John's School building has been used by the Bunscoill Ghaelgagh (Manx language-medium school). Degrees in Manx are available from the Isle of Man College and the Centre for Manx Studies. Manx-language playgroups also exist and Manx language classes are available in island schools. In the 2001 census, 1,689 out of 76,315, or 2.2% of the population, claimed to have knowledge of Manx, although the degree of knowledge in these cases was presumably varied.''

This entire section exagerates the use of the language here. If I were to read this section as somebody who isn't from here, i'd probably think there were many fluent speakers and many people using it a second language. I can only guess that this has been written by somebody who doesn't live here and/or who is trying to push the Celtic links.


 * How does it exaggerate the use of the language? It accurately states that 2.2% (and lists the figure) of the population speak the language to some degree. If anyone reads "2.2% of a population speaking a language to some degree" and interprets that as "there are a lot of fluent speakers" then it is the reader who has a problem, and not the article itself. Mac Tíre  Cowag  13:42, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to see a reference/source for "By then a scholarly revival had begun to spread to the populace and many had learned Manx as a second language".


 * Done. Two references provided. Mac Tíre   Cowag  13:42, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

I also don't see the need for the last section "although the degree of knowledge in these cases was presumably varied". That 2.2% have knowledge of (rather than stating that they are fluent, for example) makes it clear the actual level of use of the Manx language on the island.


 * No it doesn't. For example, in the Irish census there is no tick box for stating fluent. This article isn't just for those on the IoM - different census structures, different interpretations of English, etc. all lead to the necessity of that statement. Mac Tíre  Cowag  13:42, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

''In common use are the greetings moghrey mie and fastyr mie which mean good morning and good afternoon respectively. The Manx language knows no evening as it is afternoon. Another frequently heard Manx expression is traa dy liooar meaning time enough, and represents a stereotypical view of the Manx attitude to life.''

The terms "moghrey mie and fastyr mie" are not in "common" use. They are mentioned on Manx Radio but other than that very infrequently other than in humour. They are examples of Manx phrases as are all at the following link http://www.omniglot.com/language/phrases/manx.php Traa dy liooar is again not heard that frequently other than as scarcasm as it does indeed represent a stereotypical view of Manx attitude to life as well as customer service (http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/business/is_manx_customer_service_that_bad_1_1757592)


 * I agree that the wording here needs to be altered. I have changed the text in the article to a less contentious version. Mac Tíre   Cowag  13:42, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm also suprised that there isn't space dedicated for the use of the language in companies and on signage. For example, many government building signs stationary normally have departmental names stated with smaller manx translations underneath. Isle of Man Water has Ushtey written on all vans and is probably the most commonly seen Manx word on the Isle of Man. However it should be made clear that the usage of the Manx language is in no way comparable to Wales, as an example.


 * This is already discussed in the article on the Manx language. Again, the article is about the Isle of Man - not every minute detail needs discussing here. Mac Tíre  Cowag  13:42, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

''A more recent claim for the title of national dish would be the ubiquitous chips, cheese and gravy. This dish, which is similar to poutine, is found in most of the island's fast-food outlets, and consists of thick cut chips, covered in shredded Manx Cheddar cheese and topped with a thick gravy.[63]''

Chips, cheese and gravy is ubiquitous in that it is served in many parts of the UK, not exclusively and ubiquitously on the Isle of Man - not the context suggested. Greater detail here - "shredded Manx cheddar cheese" surely grated is the word and take-outs do not exclusively use Manx cheddar, I would like to see a source that confirms otherwise. A genuine source for the claim it is the national dish rather than mentioned as a joke would be hard to find, probably impossible.


 * The article doesn't state it is not used elsewhere, nor does it say it originated in the Isle of Man. There is a difference between being a dish that is the national dish and being a dish with its origins in a particular nation. Chips themselves originated in Belgium. Agree with removing Manx cheddar. The source does not back this up. Mac Tíre   Cowag  13:42, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

''Seafood has traditionally accounted for a large proportion of the local diet. Although commercial fishing has declined in recent years, local delicacies include Manx kippers (smoked herring) which are produced by the smokeries in Peel on the west coast of the island, albeit mainly from North Sea herring these days[citation needed]. The smokeries also produce other specialities including smoked salmon and bacon. Crab, lobster and scallops are commercially fished, and the Queen Scallop (Queenies) is regarded as a particular delicacy, with a light, sweet flavour. Cod, ling and mackerel are often angled for the table, and freshwater trout and salmon can be taken from the local rivers and lakes, supported by the Government fish hatchery at Cornaa.''

There could be mention with the above that fish restaurants are few and far between for an island thats obviously surrounded by sea water. I'm not sure it should state that Queenies are regarded as "a particular delicacy"


 * I've provided a source for "delicacy". Mac Tíre  Cowag  13:42, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

''Cattle, sheep, pigs and poultry are all commercially farmed, Manx lamb from the hill-farms being a popular dish. The Loaghtan, the indigenous breed of Manx sheep, has a rich, dark meat that has found favour with chefs, featuring in dishes on the BBC's MasterChef series.''

Is there a source for finding favour with chefs above and beyond another period in time? Also the only MasterChef source i can personally find is a contestant serving it at a Manx food festival ... on the Isle of Man.


 * Yes. And I've added them in. Mac Tíre   Cowag  13:42, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

''Manx cheese has been a particular success, featuring smoked and herb-flavoured varieties and is stocked by many of the UK's supermarket chains. Manx cheese took bronze medals in the 2005 British Cheese Awards, and sold 578 tonnes over the year.''

I'm not comfortable that the word "particular" is relevent here.


 * "Particular" removed, but relevant sources added. Mac Tíre   Cowag  13:42, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

''The Isle of Man is represented as a nation in the Commonwealth Games and the Island Games and will be hosting the IV Commonwealth Youth Games in 2011. Manx athletes have won three gold medals at the Commonwealth Games, the most recent being in 2006 by cyclist Mark Cavendish in the Scratch race. The Island Games were first held on the island in 1985, and again in 2001.''

The mention of the Island Games doesn't fit in this paragraph about the Commonwealth Games. The Isle of Man founded the Island Games as part of its "Year of Sport" in 1985. Its intention is to allow island nations the chance to compete on a more level playing field rather than, for example, inter county sports that the Island had previously competed in http://www.islandgames.net/iga/history.html


 * If you can provide alternative wording we can add it in. I'm not sure how to reword the phrasing here as I'm not sure what exactly concerns you in this paragraph. Mac Tíre  Cowag  14:09, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

''The main international event associated with the island is the Isle of Man Tourist Trophy race, colloquially known as "The TT",[65] which began in 1907. It takes place in late May and early June. The TT is now an international road racing event for motorcycles, which used to be part of the World Championship, and is long considered to be one of the "greatest motorcycle sporting events of the world".[66] Taking place over a two week period, it has become a festival for motorcycling culture, makes a huge contribution to the island’s economy and has become part of Manx identity.[67] For many, the Isle carries the title "road racing capital of the world".[68]

The Manx Grand Prix is a separate motorcycle event for amateurs and private entrants that uses the same 60.70 km (37.72 mi)[69] Snaefell Mountain Course in late August and early September.''

No mention of the many deaths during both the TT and Grand Prix which is the main reason that they get any mention in the international press (even if the deaths are rarely covered in the IoM press)? Nor the chance to then give the argument from the riders that they know the risks before competing?


 * No need to mention the deaths. Deaths can be attributed to pretty much all TT and GP events throughout the world. It's like saying "soccer is a popular game ans sometimes people get injured"!. Mac Tíre  Cowag  14:09, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

''Cammag is the national sport of Mann. It is similar to the Irish hurling, and the Scottish game of shinty. Once the most popular sport on the island, it ceased to be played by the start of the 20th century, but has recently been revived, with an annual match at St John's.''

I'd like to see a source confirming that Cammag is still the national sport of the island. Football is the main sport along with Rugby and Cycling. I assume Cammag appears to be included because of its historical Celtic link.


 * "National" and "popular" carry two completely different, though sometimes overlapping, meanings. Its use here is appropriate as its popularity can be deduced from the fact that "it ceased to be played". It's not included because of any Celtic link - its included because it exists. Mac Tíre   Cowag  14:09, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Manx Loaghtan Sheep are bred for their meat on the island and have an important place in Manx cuisine.

I'd question the use of the word "important" - this is just opinion and cannot be sourced, for good reason. Manx Loagthan sheep are bred in the isle of man but not many and in far less numbers than other sheep. I would suggest some context could be added here to make it clear for the reader. Also, the paragraph below is two paragraphs from the original mention of the breed above.''

The Manx Loaghtan sheep is a breed native to the island. It has dark brown wool and four or sometimes six horns. The meat is considered to be a delicacy. There are several flocks on the island and others have been started in England and Jersey.''


 * This section is specifically dedicated to Manx animals. There are other animals, including other varieties of sheep, but they are not Manx specific. The original mention was to do with culture and cuisine. This section is to do with biota - hence the separation. I have replaced the word "important" with "traditional" which is sourced. Mac Tíre   Cowag  14:09, 12 September 2011 (UTC)