Talk:J. P. Stevens High School

Well...
Looks like some students/teachers have discovered this page. 8)

Unfortunantely, they're not Wikipedians, so some of the edits are of dubious quality. I loathe to revert them however, so let's see how it turns out, and then refactor, hmm? &mdash; Ambush Commander (Talk) 01:02, 4 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Hopefully they'll read the WPSchools thing at the top, and remember that information has to be neutral and verifiable... who knows, maybe some of them will turn into regular wikipedians. Kappa 01:19, 4 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Is the WPSchools thing supposed to be on the talk page? Isn't it supposed to be on the article itself? AndyZ 17:03, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, if you were surfing Wikipedia, and you saw this huge, informative, not important sign on the article, there'd be something wrong right? Ideally, all templates would go on talk pages, but stuff like npov need to be on the article to get attention. &mdash; Ambush Commander (Talk) 21:46, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I made an error while reading the template. I read the line "You can discuss the Project at its talk page." incorrectly somehow and thought the talk page referred to the talk page of this article, not the talk page for the Wikiprojects page.AndyZ 22:12, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

History
I was wondering, should the names of the graduates be included in the History section of the article? AndyZ 22:34, 2 December 2005 (UTC)


 * All graduates? &mdash; Ambush Commander (Talk) 21:46, 6 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I mean, do the graduates belong in the History section? They seem kind of irrelevant there (even though I just realized I moved them there myself). Should a new section be created called Notable Graduates or something? AndyZ 22:09, 6 December 2005 (UTC)


 * They probably don't deserve their own section. I think they're fine as is. &mdash; Ambush Commander (Talk) 22:13, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

The paragraph about all the JPS students going to Edison High in 1994 never happened. I tried to delete it, but somebody just put it right back. ---Rick &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.136.198.8 (talk &bull; contribs).


 * Likely, Metros thought the removal was vandalism (because you didn't give any edit summary with it). I'll do some quick asking around, and then remove it on grounds that it is unsourced. &mdash; Ambush Commander (Talk) 22:37, 4 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Precisely why I deleted it. I saw it as someone just deleting it.  Someone else deleted it awhile back and it was restored for being an unexplained delete.  There was a gas pipeline fire in 1994 that burned some townhouses in Edison in the vincinity of the school, so it can be feasibly thought that this double-session system could have occured.--Metros232 03:03, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Can a source be found for that (outside of the Edison, New Jersey article?) The fire did occur- see this pdf report. I find it unlikely that all of the students moved from JPS to EHS- but I guess its possible. AndyZ 14:17, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * After doing a little more research, it does not seem feasible that JP Stevens would close for several reasons, most of which being the proximity of the schools--Edison being closer to the blast than JP Stevens. The reverse would be more likely: Edison High going to JP Stevens.  According to this source  Edison High was used as a shelter and staging area right after the explosion (it mentions the school was closed because 1,200 displaced residents were living there, though it does not really mention how long they stayed).  Here's some awe-strucking photos of the damage .--Metros232 16:34, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I was a senior at JPS when the explosion happened. I lived about 1/10th a mile from JPS when the explosion went off and I thought an airplane had crashed across the street - yet it was several miles away.  As I remember it, the next morning there was a question as to whether school started at regular time or there would be a delayed start.  Most students and teachers were so excited to talk about and get news on the fire that they were in the school by the regular start time.  I remember spending several hours in the cafeteria that morning just getting snippets of news about what happened.  It was effectively a lost day of school.  But that was it.  People that lived in the immediate area of the explosion would have attended JPS, not Edison High.  --Rick


 * I think Rick and Metros are right that students in the area of the fire would have attended JPS. Also, neither JPS nor EHS were located anywhere near the fire. Durham Woods is located here (see map). I recommend deleting the text about the EHS students going to JP. Wl219 05:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * If I delete this section again, is somebody going to come along and just put it back in? I was there at the time. I was a student at the school. No students from EHS came to JPS. No students from JPS went to EHS. The fire occurred. There was major damage around the area and it was JPS students that lived in the immediate area of the explosion. It was a major topic of discussion for about a week. The information contained here is wrong. --Rick

Improv Club
Can anyone assert a valid reason as to why the Improv Club stands alone in this article? I don't see anything notable about it. I could easily write a section like that on JP Stevens' FBLA chapter, so I don't see why it needs its own section. Thoughts?--Metros232 05:08, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Apparently members of the improv club are ardent about including the section, and nobody really bothers to remove it or change it anyway since there isn't much reason to delete it. I guess we should keep it- there's no sense in removing it, though it would be best if some of the more important club descriptions could be added. AndyZ 17:31, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The troupe has been awarded many titles over the past years, being named the best improv troupe in the state of New Jersey by the NJ Thespian Society in 2005. Request to bring back the section? -Chris Polansky
 * I would suggest reinstating it, and then citing an online source that says so. &mdash; Edward Z. Yang (Talk) 22:00, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Should we create a section just for sports/club/academic awards? Wl219 05:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, that's a bit of a tricky issue. If the award has a Wikipedia article, I think it'd be notable enough for inclusion, but be careful not to list every single one. &mdash; Edward Z. Yang (Talk) 23:38, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Chris Polansky, the only reason you want the Improv club up there is because you are in it. Honestly, even though the club has won awards, so have many others. There aren't a good deal of people outside of the club itself who pay attention to it, and shows have pretty low attendence. WikialityisBetter 00:34, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. I personally have never seen a show, and do not think that they deserve their own article.  Our football team won states in 2001 undefeated, but we don't include that.  If we include every club that has ever won an award or had a good spell of fortune, this article will be exorbitanly long.--Futbol4life (talk) 02:46, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Students
What is the dispute with the demographics? I've noticed in the page history that the Asian-American population at the school has changed many times back and forth from 56% to 76%. I haven't heard much about the school since I graduated two years ago, but I think 76% is a bit far-fetched, if my memory serves me right.


 * If someone could find a reputable source, we could resolve the dispute, but it's proven... difficult (the report card for this school doesn't mention demographics, and most info would probably be on paper). &mdash; Edward Z. Yang (Talk) 14:58, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * NCES data for J.P. Stevens High School shows 1,027 As-Ams out of a populations of 2,160 in the 2003-04 School year, just about 48% of the population. Unless someone has a sourced number that is more current... Alansohn 05:24, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The statistics at that site have been updated to the 05-06 year, and 1187 out of 2228 students are Asian-American, or 53%. I hear 56% a lot, but until we get some kind of verification, we can't add that statistic. Also see

NPOV
"JPS has been known as an excellent high school"
 * Is this verbatim how it's known? Or is this bias marketing?  IMHO it's bias towards the school for marketing purposes.
 * More like JPS is among the top 50 schools in NJ. &mdash; Edward Z. Yang (Talk) 03:30, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Name
The school was named for John P. Stevens, who had been President of the Edison Board of Education. His name is on the dedication plaque at the entrance to Edison High. It has nothing to do with any of the more familiar men named John P. Stevens.


 * If you can show a definitive source for the school being named for the BOE guy, go ahead and change it in the article. I've put up a tag for now, since (speaking as a JPS grad) the textile guy story is currently the most widely held history. Wl219 20:31, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Correction needed?
An IP added this to the article today:
 * Correction: Originally J. P. S. contained grades 9 through 12. In 1993, with the opening of Woodrow Wilson Junior High (which I attended in its inaugural year), the system changed from 2-year to 3-year Junior Highs, and from 4-year to 3-year High Schools. - Bill Stella

I took it out and placed it here. If anyone can provide a reliable source for this, feel free to make the appropriate changes. Metros232 16:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Unbalanced
Is it just me or does this article seem very music heavy? There are large paragraphs devoted to Chorus, Orchestra, and Band. And not only is the article heavily weighted towards music, but only recent musical achievements. I honestly thinks it's a case of current students twanting to get their personal accomplishments in the article. Facts such as sports titles or major clubs awards are more relevant than individual music achievements. DevelopmentArrested 20:01, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree. I think Edward Z. Yang's suggestion from 19 July 2006 above (the Improv talk section) is a workable idea. Governor's School has its own article but there are 90 or so students at each Gov. School each year so I don't think individual students are notable enough to mention. I'm not knowledgeable about music awards but state level awards I think are notable enough for their own article if they don't exist already, and a list of winners would more logically be included there. Wl219 20:12, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I must admit, I haven't been paying very close attention to this article (a big no-no for a Wikipedian who does indeed go to the school). The article is certainly music heavy, although I disagree that sports titles/major club awards are necessarily "more relevant" (disclaimer: I participate in all three groups). I'm not opposed to trimming down the band sections, as well as adding more info on the sports clubs, but we need to keep an eye on citing sources. I've already removed the personal accomplishment mentions from the article: some of them were even downright wrong. &mdash; Edward Z. Yang (Talk) 20:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Chorus, Orchestra, and Band, and other "music related" subjects are a major portion of J.P. Stevens. More than a third of the student body participates in these subjects.
 * A large portion of the student body participates in sports too, but we haven't listed highlights from every sport from every season. Wl219 06:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Is it really necessary to have a section like "The 2007-2008 Marching Hawks" I think its just a case of current JPS students wanting their names on wikipedia (i.e "The three Drum Majors are Kristie Kuo, Michael Zhang, and Edward Yang.")67.82.239.20 01:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, I think most of this is superfluous and should be deleted. As someone who also goes to this school, I think that some of the other clubs should have more information.--Futbol4life (talk) 02:42, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Link to The JP Social Network?
Why is the link to the JP Alumni social network always deleted from the JP min page.

The link I refer to is hawktalk.ning.com

This is a social network created for and by JP Alumni. The site is free, it reconnects friends, raises money for JP scholarships, creates volunteer opportunities and above all is a digital place to remenisce.

It is the most important link on the site and probably needs more attention paid to it or a page of its own.

Getting deleted is not acceptable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Valliebe (talk • contribs) 02:51, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

"Finest."
Every two sentences in the Extra-Curric sections seemingly says "Finest in the state." I'm pretty sure that's not Wiki standard. 67.82.236.87 (talk) 21:15, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Reordering of Headings
Why is the first section the awards, recognitions and rankings? I think that section should be shifted down after the extracurriculars. It would make a lot more sense to put the history, students and faculty sections first. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MaximusAlphus (talk • contribs) 20:08, 21 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree. I've moved it down to just above extracurriculars, although I suppose it could go after it. A lot of material in this article could do with trimming - WikiProject Schools/Article guidelines could be useful. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:25, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

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Requested move 30 January 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

Moved back to J. P. Stevens High School by editor. Move to John P. Stevens High School was a technical request grant, so consider this a contested TR, and this move request is granted (with a space between J. and P.). No prejudice if an editor wants to open a new move request at any time. Thanks and kudos to the nom and other editors for your input; everyone stay healthy!  P.I. Ellsworth &thinsp;, ed.  put'r there 04:27, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

John P. Stevens High School → J.P. Stevens High School – Match WP:COMMONNAME as Google search shows "J. P. Stevens High School" to be the far more common usage. The name had been stable for years and was moved under the specious claim that an uncontroversial "misspelling" was being fixed. Wikipedia uses the common name as the title, which is why the article for William Jefferson Clinton is titled Bill Clinton. Alansohn (talk) 02:00, 30 January 2023 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 12 February 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: not moved per consensus below. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 21:54, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

J. P. Stevens High School → John P. Stevens High School – The article confirms that John P. Stevens High School is the correct full name of the school, and points out that J. P. Stevens is merely an abbreviation. School sign and official website also confirm the full name. Move was approved by, but later contested by , who used Bill Clinton (real name William Jefferson Clinton) as an example for using shortened name and stating that my request was a "specious claim" and that the school's abbreviated name "had been stable for years". The rename was then reverted by Eejit43. Without prejudice to Alansohn, I would like to state that I attended John P. Stevens High School, and that no one with whom I went to school ever called it "J. P." or "JPS". None of the teachers or staff members ever used that abbreviation. The first time that I came upon it was on this Wikipedia page. Furthermore, I would like to contest this reversion, using such schools as University of California, Los Angeles (almost universally referred to as UCLA) and New York University (almost universally referred to as NYU), which both have their correct full names on Wikipedia. I, therefore, fail to understand why an unofficial name like "J. P. Stevens High School" would be used on here.  Bricks&#38;Wood  talk</i> 12:20, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment - Policy for naming articles is discussed (among other places) at WP:COMMONNAME. It isn't always the official name we use. You show COMMONNAME by citing reliable secondary sources. What's the school sign say? The website? The school district or board? The state department of education? The NCES? The state athletic association? If those agree, and published media doesn't disagree, that's your name. If people disagree, you'll need to form a consensus here. 174.212.212.6 (talk) 17:07, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment The official name appears to John P. Stevens (NCES and the school district refer to "John P."), but it's not clear to me what the common name is. What was common when the OP attended: no one with whom I went to school ever called it "J. P." or "JPS". None of the teachers or staff members ever used that abbreviation may no longer be true. The logo we have in our article uses "JPS" and the school's own webpages use both forms. The home page https://jps.edison.k12.nj.us/ has a picture of a student holding a "JPS" sign, shows a calendar entitled "JPS HAWKEYE VIEW", and links to the "JPS Calendar". Other school pages also use both forms, for example the athletics page https://sites.google.com/edison.k12.nj.us/jps-athletics/home?authuser=0, uses JPS at least six times (including the school's Instagram and Twitter handles), and J.P. Stevens twice, but the full "John P. Stevens" only twice. The student :resources tab includes "JPS Alumni", "JPS Greenhouse" and "JPS Key Club", and selecting the "JPS Alumni" option brings up a page with a promo for the "JPS Class of 2003 20 Year Reunion" to be held this summer. Meters (talk) 22:09, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose While the official name is "John P. Stevens High School", the name "J. P. Stevens High School" is used more often. Even better than a Google search is Newspapers.com,which shows a strong, if not overwhelming, preference for the abbreviated name. WP:COMMONNAME is policy and there's a reason why the article for the president is titled Joe Biden and not Joseph Biden (or Joseph Robinette Biden Jr.) If the only argument is that the official title spells out the full first name, rather than using the first initial, then np change is justified. Alansohn (talk) 17:41, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The shortening of WP:COMMONNAME for people on Wikipedia is treated differently than for schools and businesses. Can you provide any other schools on Wikipedia that have shortened names? Also, your statement about findings on Newspapers.com is inaccurate. If you set the parameters correctly and only search for items related to the school in New Jersey and within its existence (1964 to now), "John P. Stevens High School" has 7,309 results, while "J P Stevens High School" only has 6,364 results. That makes the complete name more common. Bricks&#38;Wood  <i style="color:#5F9EA0">talk</i> 14:42, 17 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Nom's argument that we should use the correct full name of the school shows no understanding of the issues, see wp:correct. Similarly what past students may have called it while there are primary sources and of little relevance. Common name arguments are inconclusive. Disclosure: This is user:andrewa editing from a device on which I am not permitted to logon to Wikipedia. 1.144.111.223 (talk) 16:09, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose I don't have any preference for which we use, but I'm not convinced that "John P." is the correct common name, so I see justification for changing the title. Meters (talk) 21:49, 19 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Oops, just noticed a typo in my above cmt... obviously "I see justification for changing the title" should have been "I see no justification for changing the title". Meters (talk) 17:40, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

lede is overloaded with trivia
I propose deleting from the lede that this school is "one of 29 schools with more than 2,000 students." This is a statement which has little significance for lede content. Also, I propose relocating the statement that 2.4% of students are eligible for reduced-cost lunches to a place in the body, since this fact does not have due weight for the lede. --Melchior2006 (talk) 18:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * If only Melchior2006 was not being misleading. The recent edit made to this article didn't just remove in its entirety details about the sourced content ranking the school as one of the state's largest; it also made other nonsensical changes, such as shifting enrollment data to the faculty section. This was done even after being repeatedly pointed to Talk:Union City High School (New Jersey), where it is clearly laid out that the Good Article status for the Union City High School (New Jersey) is strong reason to keep this information in the lead section. Sadly, rather than try to resolve these issues on one consolidated basis, as requested at the editor's talk page, Melchior2006 has stalked me from article to article for months, fighting the same nonsensical battle on different talk pages, hoping to get a different result one senseless edit war at a time. Alansohn (talk) 21:49, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Could you provide a short reason for including this detail in the lede of an article about a school? 2.4% of students are eligible for reduced-cost lunches. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 07:01, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
 * First off, you believe anything and everything should be removed from the lead, as seen in your recent edit made to this article. Even this discussion began with something to do about the school being one of the state's largest. As we have discussed at length at Talk:Union City High School (New Jersey) at several other talk pages, the model is Union City High School (New Jersey) which has been recognized with Good Article status, one of less than one percent of all articles in Wikipedia to be so recognized, and which has used this information in the lead section when it was recognized as a Good Article and has done so for more than a decade.My turn now: Why are you continuing this pattern of harassment, following me from article to article, failing to follow consensus established in Wikipedia's best articles and refusing to engage in a single consolidated discussion and instead choosing to engage in an edit war one article at a time over the same manufactured issue? Alansohn (talk) 11:48, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
 * There is no harassment going on here; I am permitted to contribute to any articles on Wikipedia that interest me (or not). We have interests in common, so we work on the same pages. That is not harassment. I also make no comments on your motivation or rant on about your work, as you do about mine. Please stop these endless accusations. Now, to get to the point: Union City High may be a fine article, but it is not a prototype that needs to be aped precisely in every detail. So, could you answer why you think a lede about JP Stevens High, a lede which should be the highest concentration of the most relevant information on the subject, should include the assertion that 2.4% of its students are eligible for reduced-cost lunches? -- Melchior2006 (talk) 14:22, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry to call bullshit here. Harassment, is a fundamental Wikipedia policy. It clearly states that Harassment is a pattern of repeated offensive behavior that appears to a reasonable observer to intentionally target a specific person or persons. Usually, the purpose is to make the target feel threatened or intimidated, and the outcome may be to make editing Wikipedia unpleasant for the target, to undermine, frighten, or discourage them from editing." and this is exactly what you've been doing. You have been following me from article to article for the past two months. I brought this to your attention two months ago on your talk page here.This pattern of abusive editing has been going on for far too long. I will no longer pretend that you are debating about percentages; you are stalking my edits and doing so deliberately and maliciously. Alansohn (talk) 14:48, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I am not trying to intimidate you in any way; there is no need for you to feel uncomfortable. You do wonderful work for Wikipedia. However, I don't always agree with you. Could you answer why you think a lede about JP Stevens High, a lede which should be the highest concentration of the most relevant information on the subject, should include the assertion that 2.4% of its students are eligible for reduced-cost lunches? -- Melchior2006 (talk) 07:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)