Talk:Kahramanmaraş

Comments
The quote from Kupferschmidt, Supreme Muslim Council, is based on an error. The book does not relate to Kahramanmaras at all. Please correct or delete. UMK (Kupferschmidt (talk) 10:30, 12 July 2014 (UTC))

Comment
Not sure why the reference to the massacre in the 70s was removed [see history]. I had provided a solid citation (the zurcher book, which, for some reason, remains at the bottom). I'm going to put it back up if I dont hear any discussion on this. This was a /major/ event modern in turkish history, and should be on this page. --Mightier than the sword 08:12, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I put back the history about the massacre. someone needs to seriously rewrite this article though, the grammar is way off, and it has a serious tourist brochure thing going on. --Mightier than the sword 08:17, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, there was no Greek army in the battle of Maras. Can I please see the evidence for the contrary?


 * The city received the title Kahraman (hero) after their legendary defence against the French Army. The city is an eternal part of our beloved country, Turkey. Deliogul 19:39, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Crusade text
I removed the following text for cleanup, which was previously listed under the "Crusades" header in the article. I believe this is referencing a campaign a Byzantine campaign in 949 during the reign of Constantine VII, and thus would not be a Crusade. Hiberniantears 19:23, 29 May 2007 (UTC) Baudouin, who led the crusader army, altered his path, on advice from the Armenian guide, towards the east. Instead of marching directly towards the plains of Cilicia, he went to the mountainous Taurus area and later to the Marash plain, where he came in direct contact with the Armenian forces. Thereby he continued towards Orfa (or Ourfa). As Stevenson observes, it was only because of the Armenian assistance that he was able to conquer this area, create a principality and rule it 14 Hence the principality of Orfa came to be a neighbour and an ally of Constantine and Baudouin strengthened this alliance by marring the nephew of Constantine.

Massacre
I reinstated the section on the 70s massacre which was deleted without comment by an anonymous editor, even though it seems to cite a valid sources. (Considering also that Kahramanmaraş massacre redirects here)

I had no previous knowledge of the topic, so the information is incorrect please correct it (and cite your sources). However, please don't delete cited and relevant information without giving an explanation here. Averell (talk) 17:55, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Wrong knowlodge about Kahramanmaraş
In Wikipedia article, we see that Kahramanmaraş is in the Southeasthern part of Turkey. But in fact Kahramanmaraş is in the Mediterannean region of Turkey. We would be pleased if you correct this topic. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.156.165.232 (talk) 23:38, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

The name "Maraş"
For some reason, the name in the article was Maraşch, I've changed it into "Maraş", which is the correct one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lvxaet (talk • contribs) 14:06, 5 July 2010 (UTC)


 * In spite of what has already been said, the page is now named Marash which is not correct in Turkish. The name of the town is Kahramanmaraş which gets abbreviated to Maraş, so the page should surely be headed Kahramanmaraş. Ealinggirl1954 (talk) 16:40, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Issue with Historical Accuracy
I am a historian by profession, and my issue with this wiki article is it does not give a bipartisan perspective to the country's history.

Those of us who have studied the events in the eastern Mediterranean, know there has always been a debate over the true discourse of historical events. If you ask one side, from one country, they would argue the point of view from another regarding the same exact event. This allows for a one-sided history if it is being controlled from one source, because it disregards the other side entirely.

The section that I saw added previously, I agree with. For the fact that it needs to be said to give the reader both perspective of a regions history. I also investigated the history before the changes before the edit. The author did not remove any of the other side's perspective, it was left to give the opposing view which allows for the reader to make their own decision on the true nature of events within the land which the article is about. User: Historicism Society (talk) 11:41, 27 April 2011


 * There has been an armenian nationalist user adding psuedo history to this article with a view of tryong to claim it as "armenian". The hittite foundation of Kahramanmaraş is common fact and his edits alleging that was founded by armenians are downright ridiculousSpecial:Contributions/ Unknown (talk)

I remain neutral regarding this topic because my organization requires me to be. One must see both sides of a topic before letting emotions and bias effect what is in question. In my opinion I must disagree with the above statement that it was a “nationalist “who made the amendments to the history section. I see the previous user provided citations and dates to establish a factual basis. One can understand if you happen to be living in this region and want to instinctively jump to the conclusion that it's history is Turkish by nature. When in fact this is not the way the world's history has run course; borders of countries constantly shift and in some cases disappear. My colleagues and I will be working on research regarding this area for several years and will try to view the history with neutrality that any true historian requires. I suggest Wikipedia dispute resolution so that they may intervene with they suggest to be historically accurate, without letting cultural influences disrupt unbiased truth. The Oxford-Harvard Affiliate (talk) 18:35, 11 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I have removed both assertions (Armenian and Hittite) as they were both unsourced. Do not restore unless you can provide a reliable source to back it up. And no, Wikipedia is not a reliable source and can not be used to cite another Wikipedia article.--  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   14:09, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Salep
It says in the intro that the region is most famous for the production of salep. Then nothing further is said about it, not even in the section on the industry of the region. If it is so important to be mentioned in the intro, surely in merits lengthier treatment further down? Rui &#39;&#39;Gabriel&#39;&#39; Correia (talk) 18:59, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Edits by Tekerek
Perhaps, user:Tekerek can explain why he/she is removing George E. White from the listing of natives of Kahramanmaras?! After checking George E. White's article, "On October 14, 1861, George Edward White was born in Marash, Ottoman Empire where his Christian missionary parents had arrived in 1856." ~Dr. White, Headed College in Greece". New York Times. 4 May 1946. p. 15. --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:50, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Does this sentence make sense?
I will admit up front that I know nothing about this subject. But does this sentence make sense grammatically?

"Baldwin of Germanikeia died in a war in 1146, while trying recover Edessa Nur ad-Din Zangi, which had taken the side of Joscelin II of Edessa""

The part that I put in bold that is the problem. Did Edessa take Joscelin's side or Nur ad-Din Zangi? Is this supposed to be 2 sentences? Leschnei (talk) 13:55, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Population figure
Recently, the total population figure was changed to: "The city ... has a population of 1,112,634 as of 2017." But that figure is for the whole of Kahramanmaraş Province, not just for the city. I am not sure how to determine the correct figure. A few years ago the central Kahramanmaraş district was split into two districts, Dulkadiroğlu and Onikişubat, which, according to the Turkish Wikipedia, had populations of 219.548 and 396.753, respectively, by the end of 2016. These numbers add up to 616.301; however, not all the area covered by these districts is urban. --Lambiam 17:30, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 4 March 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved to Marash. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vaticidalprophet 15:21, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Kahramanmaraş → Marash – Overwhelming common name in English-language sources, according to NGRAMS. WP:COMMONNAME should be used instead of WP:OFFICIALNAME when there's a conflict. It would also be an improvement to rename to "Maraş" as even that's significantly more common than the official name, but "Marash" is twice as common as "Maraş". (t &#183; c)  buidhe  16:37, 4 March 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. — Nnadigoodluck  █ █ █ 14:57, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * NGRAMS link (t &#183; c)  buidhe  16:37, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
 * .......... in history books, yes. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:19, 4 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Strong oppose per Kahramanmaraş Airport : the nom's ngram link is to history books. Yes obviously the NGram for history books will give the name as it was during the crusades, or 101 years ago in 1920. But we're in 2021. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:14, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
 * No, the NGRAMS link is not specifically to history books, it is to all books in the corpus. The graph shows you when they are published and Marash is still most common by a factor of 2 in 2019. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  17:23, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Just searching a word in a city where historical battles took place with produce hits for the battles. Your NGram is overwhelmingly to history books, please look at GBooks and see what your NGram is based on. Might be better for leave the history books out of it and look in recent UK newspapers: The Sun "after a wrinkle removal treatment in the city of Kahramanmaras, southeastern Turkey, left her with pus pouring out of her skin"  In ictu oculi (talk) 17:27, 4 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Support. All titles should use letters from the English alphabet. Red   Slash  17:53, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Also, WP:CONCISE should decide this even if USEENGLISH isn't enough. Red   Slash  16:48, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Support Maraş as a wimpy compromise option. Even assuming IIO's claim that "Marash" is based on old references is true, it is also very clear that Maraş easily outpaces Kahramanmaraş, even if the NGRAM search is restricted to post-2010.  (If there isn't appetite to do this, second choice is Marash, third choice is status quo.)  SnowFire (talk) 22:04, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Strong support "Marash". This is the historical name know for centuries. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 07:05, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Marash or Maraş?
Why is it spelt "Marash" in the title? Is this the accepted form? The conventional Turkish spelling would be "Maraş", and the latter is used in the body of the article. Propose changing the title to "Maraş" for consistency! Yekshemesh (talk) 08:06, 17 May 2021 (UTC)


 * One user, who is well known for smearing Turkish history related pages and Armenian lobbying, decided to change the page name from "Maraş" to "Marash". Their reasoning for this was that "English language sources" use "Marash" instead of "Maraş". However, it should be noted that most English published books do not have Turkish characters. Hence, Marash.
 * The City's name is Maraş and is written this way. There are plenty of pages in English Wiki which refer the City as Maraş. Such as ; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara%C5%9F_massacre
 * I think the uncalled merging could be described as "bad intent edit" and "POV merging". I am not a wikipedia editor, so i am not familiar with all the details about editing and wont touch the page. I find it deeply unsettling that someone changes my Hometowns name according their POV? Please note that Armenians as well are calling the city Maraş. The english spelling could be included in a parenthesis in the title. Cheers. 212.175.32.58 (talk) 17:57, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
 * What has even happened here again? This is effective vandalism by one user whose argument could apply to anything from Bangalore to Londinium, and another user chiming in saying "all titles should use letters from the English alphabet"?
 * Considering Wikipedia has recently gone through the Odesa-Odessa debacle, where the name change happened despite overwhelming use of the latter and that being the official spelling in the dominant language of the city, what kind of editor actually looked at this and thought "yep, this is good"? Been a Wiki reader for a million years but very much a rookie as a user -- is there any appeals court for such decisions? Hlör u fang axaxaxas mlö (talk) 00:41, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 14 February 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved. to alternate title Kahramanmaraş (non-admin closure)  ❯❯❯  Raydann  (Talk)   17:35, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Marash → Maraş – The name Maraş is current, and 16 times more common. Few if any of the news articles or the press coverage of the city regarding the recent earthquake there use the name 'Marash'. – anlztrk (talk) 14:12, 14 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Let's move this to Kahramanmaraş. Kavas (talk) 22:49, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree In ictu oculi (talk) 17:44, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME based on the Google Ngrams. Rreagan007
 * These old Ngrams are irrelevant - includes history books and reprint - now see reliable current sources Guardian for example. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:47, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Support (later edit: After reviewing the arguments, I think Kahramanmaraş is equally acceptable): While Google Ngram data (here is the same data also with Kahramanmaraş) shows Marash being used more often, the majority of books mentioning Marash refer to the city in its late Ottoman context. Quoting from WP:NCGN: "The title: When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it." Maraş seems to be the most common name in a modern context, unless one can show evidence to the contrary. Kahramanmaraş seems less common in general, even if some RS use it. Uness232 (talk) 06:21, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support or restore to Kahramanmaraş previous RM should never have been closed in that way. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:42, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per comments on original RM. As a note the ngrams do not show anything like "16 times more common" so I believe nominator is greatly exaggerating there, but it does appear that the Maraş form is more common for modern references.  I oppose IIO's alternate suggestion of Kahramanmaraş per issues raised in the earlier RM - ngrams showed that form was not very common at all.  SnowFire (talk) 00:15, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose: Maraş is the exact same name, just with a special character for the 'sh', and Wikipedia avoids using special characters where a common non-special character name exists, per MOS:ROMANIZATION, but support Kahramanmaraş, which has become dominant in scholarly usage and also for many news outlets, in recent earthquake coverage in particular (448,000 hits vs 2,000 hits). MOS:ROMANIZATION does not apply here, because "Kahramanmarash" with a 'sh' at the end is not commonly used anywhere. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:05, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * But Marash is not a common name for the city in a contemporary context. Its usage is often restricted to the city in its Ottoman context, which makes the name not applicable per WP:NCGN. Uness232 (talk) 08:11, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Marash is still fairly common actually: OCHA, India Today, Variety, etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:44, 17 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Support per original RM's arguments. Both Maraş and Kahramanmaraş are suitable names for the city in the modern context. Marash, much more often than not, refers to the city during the pre-republic times. Demoxica (talk) 06:43, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support to Kahramanmaraş per the 430,000 news-outlet hits at the time of writing. Simple-engineer (talk) 11:06, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Comment: Leaning oppose, never heard anyone calling it Kahramanmaraş...Networks from the region also include Maraş without Kahraman like here. It's rather a new name as well. Before its official name was Maraş. The domains I found also use Maras only without the Kahraman like here, and here and many newpapers and companies still use Maras only like here here and here. I guess Kahramanmaras is similar like Türkyie–Turkey just a bit older. Commonname is Marash/ş, but official name s is Kahramanmaraş.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 11:43, 17 February 2023 (UTC)


 * @Paradise Chronicle: url domains are not a source: every one of those five links used to illustrate that point contain the name "Kahramanmaraş" in the actual text on the page. They probably use the short form for the sake of url brevity. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:47, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Or historical reasons for any media outlets/organizations/institutions founded pre-1973 Iskandar323 (talk) 12:50, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. ✅ Dr. Vogel (talk) 17:47, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

The original name of this city was Kermanig, before changed to Marash
This city used to be called Kermanig before the turks concurred the land from Armenians. It was the birth city of my grandfather, he had a bakery named after his birth city Kermanig and his legacy continues until today with Kermanig Bakery in Los Angeles, USA. The old name of the city isn't mentioned to hide the truth, yet we Armenians know. 47.39.117.246 (talk) 18:56, 31 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Kermanig is probably the Armenian variant of "Germanicea", which is already mentioned in the article. Could you add a source for the name "Kermanig"? Thank you. Aintabli (talk) 05:00, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Kahramanmaraş is not kermanig(Germeanicea)! Kahramanmaraş was Germanicea now it's Kahramanmaraş, not Germanic. İstanbul (not Constantinople) gibi 151.135.89.72 (talk) 07:00, 2 September 2023 (UTC)