Talk:Killing of Nixzmary Brown

Biography assessment rating comment
WikiProject Biography Summer 2007 Assessment Drive

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 16:10, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "Nixzmary"
How does one pronounce "Nixzmary"? &mdash; Rickyrab | Talk 23:14, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The name Nixzmary is pronounced as KNEES-MAR-EE, according to a person I know who is Puerto Rican like Nixzmary was. Hope that helped. — Fanficgurl 11:33, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The correct pronouncation of the name is actually KNEES-MAR-REE, not EE at the end like I thought. Sorry about that little mistake. - Fanficgurl 8:16, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I was watching Geraldo At Large yesterday and according to him, Nixzmary's name is pronounced Nix-Mary, not Knees-Mar-Ree. I'm totally confused now. Does anyone really know the correct pronounation of Nixzmary's name? - Fanficgurl 9:59, 19 February 1, 2006 (UTC)

I am from Puerto Rico and NixMary is not a Puerto Rican name. The mother also had Nix in front of her name. Can we get the correct origin of this name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.152.162 (talk) 04:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The name "Nixzmary" seems to be a name made from combining two names, as said here. If followed from that link, the pronunciation would be

"NIKS-MARY". --69.114.49.210 (talk) 12:22, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I find trying to get the correct pronunciation of names is futile. One person insists you pronounce Hebert Ā-BEAR, another says it's Hee-bert. What logic is there in pronouncing Brett Favre's name "Farv"? It's whatever the holder of the name says it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.3.22.153 (talk) 16:08, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Notability
Is this really important enough to be in Wikipedia? lots of cases like this happen every year. Williamb 04:56, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Eirra 20:18, 13 May 2006 (UTC)yes, I think so. I mean it started new laws and mad the news, so...
 * It's very notable in that it focused attention on the ACS and made major changes in policy, etc. Of course, Nixzmary's death was roughly one month before the 'bombshell' of Imette St. Guillen's death and her murder, along with the murder of Jennifer Moore, have really changed Nightlife!--MurderWatcher1 22:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If the ACS every actually reforms - that will be noteable. Deaths of children that lead to ACS 'reform' occur in NYC almost as regularly as sunset follows sunrise. 24.16.164.253 (talk) 23:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Again, this case is very notable, and unfortunately I have to agree with the unknown [User:24.16.164.253] because I just put in new information about the ACS, and they really need reform in their methods, practices, etc.--MurderWatcher1 (talk) 18:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * http://www.google.com/trends?q=killed%2C+pluto&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0 Google trends shows a spike in "killed" when this happened that's higher than the spike in "pluto" later the same year. 75.118.170.35 (talk) 16:59, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Sexual abuse?
The article mentions sexual abuse, yet I haven't seen anything about this in any of the news sites I have read about this on. Anyone know anything? --Ifrit 08:33, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think anyone is 100% sure; but if she had an autopsy done, then they should know if she was sexually abused or not. I, personally, believe that sexual abuse did occur.


 * This has to be one of the most sickening cases of child abuse and murder I have ever seen. As a Forensic scientist, I have seen a lot, but this one takes the cake.


 * Apparently, Cesar was abusive toward Nixzmary's mother as well. I feel that, as an adult, she should have used her head and walked away from the situation, and taken her children out of it as well. I feel that she failed to live up to her responsibilities as a mother. I guess I'll just shut it and leave now... SilentWind 23:34, 10 September 2006 (UTC)SilentWind

Against Merger
The law should have its article if/when it's passed. Crzrussian 02:58, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Jessica's Law has its own page seperate from the article on Jessica Lunsford.  I think people who think the articles should just be merged should also merge Jessica's Law and her individual article.  Otherwise, leave them both seperate because the person is different from the law. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.87.129.9 (talk • contribs)

Move to Wikinews
This article reads more like a news article and hence should be moved to wikinews. --Soumyasch 11:41, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I see no reason to move the article to Wikinews, as this is no longer really a current event. &mdash;  Rickyrab | Talk 05:49, 22 March 2006 (UTC)ay 2006 (UTC)


 * Her death is still being ocassionally mentioned in the New York Daily News and the New York Post. Yes, it is history AND it is still current news!--MurderWatcher1 22:02, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Funeral photograph
The inclusion of a photograph of the girl in her coffin is totally unnecessary and exploitative. I strongly suggest it be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phlask (talk • contribs)

For Merger
Many articles about laws named for whatever murder are often stubs, lets tact on Nixmary's law with her article.--Nicole M. 02:38, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Charges
I deleted this "Santiago and Rodriguez were charged with second-degree murder.". The mother was charged with manslaughter as stated earlier in the article. Crana 22:55, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Article Content vs. Article Title
The bulk of this article is about the murder trial of Nixzmary Brown. I am unsure of what precedent, if any, has been set on similar articles of this type, but it seems to me this article would make more sense either renamed Nixzmary Brown murder trial or the trial-related content being spun off into its own article with that title. Like I said, I don't know what other, similar articles have done but this is just my initial reaction upon having viewed the page for the first time. - Ageekgal (talk) 21:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I've got some issues with this article, especially as its being used primarily as a trial blog. It needs major work to bring it into Wikipedia style guidelines. I agree with the assessment regarding the name of the article. Wildhartlivie (talk) 22:13, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


 * If someone does a Google search, that person isn't going to type "Nixzmary Brown Murder Case"; they're going to type "Nixzmary Brown"! I've seen complaints similar to this in other Wikipedia pages and it's just foolish! As for the page being a trial blog, well I'm doing my best, but after the trial is over, then I'll consider "bringing it up to Wikipedia standards". I have no time now because I'm waiting for another case to surface in the news and for it to reveal a failure of bureaucratic entities in that case! If the notability issue must surface again, please see my comments on that elsewhere on this page. Brown's case is a failure of ACS, which is a government/bureaucratic entity that failed in its mission to protect children.--MurderWatcher1 (talk) 18:38, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You said but after the trial is over, then I'll consider "bringing it up to Wikipedia standards". That is the whole issue. You'll consider bringing it up to standard. Could you please explain how "waiting for another case to surface" inhibits your ability to work on reformatting this article into something besides a trial blog? Your comments tend to imply that you will wait to see what else happens, and you'll use it to build a case against ACS. That is simply NOT what Wikipedia is for, as that is original research. To date, I've left the article alone, hoping you'd do some quality work on it, besides adding the daily trial round-up. As to your point about Google searches, that is invalid because Google most certainly WILL show up an article named the "Nixzmary Brown murder trial" since her name is in the title. As it stands, this article isn't about Nixzmary Brown's life, it is about her death and the trial, so it is misnamed. Please consider working on bringing this article up to Wikipedia standards now, rather than later. Otherwise, it may be time to consider putting in a request for comment on the content and use of this page. Wildhartlivie (talk) 22:16, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Issues
This article is moving more toward being an indictment of the ACS system, and less about Nixzmary Brown, all the time. Unless the source is specifically discussing Brown, her death or the trial, it doesn't pertain to this article and doesn't belong. As it moves along, it's taking more of a POV slant, and that needs to be curtailed. I'm also less certain that the name of the article should be Nixzmary Brown, since it really isn't much about her, but her death and the subsequent trial. I'm considering proposing a change of name to reflect better the focus the article has taken. Please be aware of the POV problem and the indictment of ACS that's being formulated. Wildhartlivie (talk) 23:56, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I was somewhat leaning this way myself, but practically all of the articles about the ACS have related to Brown, etc. It would be difficult at this point to create a separate page for the ACS but you have to agree that the news articles DO focus on that bureaucratic body's failure with Brown, which is why I gave it some weight. I do think it's NPOV because I'm simply putting in what the newspapers are saying. Please check the links to ACS over again and maybe re-evaluate. I'd be glad to create a page for the ACS but I think I'd need access to their actual cases, etc. UPDATE: 10/20/2008: I found more information on the ACS which relates to this case so this was inputted into the page.--MurderWatcher1 (talk) 17:08, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

UPDATE: More negative news is slowly appearing about the ACS and those interested in Nixzmary's case and the ACS can read one of those stories at this Daily News link:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2008/11/06/2008-11-06_suit_blames_acs_in_tot_beat_death-1.html

--MurderWatcher1 (talk) 20:02, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Proposed move to Murder of Nixzmary Brown
This article is not really about the person Nixzmary Brown, and in fact, outside of her death, she would be a non-notable person. The article is, in-depth, about her murder and subsequent trial. It needs to be moved to a page name which reflects the content of the article. Wildhartlivie (talk) 09:27, 2 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Support. Sadly, in her short life, Miss Brown did not have a chance to achieve independent notability. WP:BLP1E says "if reliable sources only cover the person in the context of a particular event, then a separate biography is unlikely to be warranted...cover the event, not the person." —   AjaxSmack   19:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I concur.--MurderWatcher1 (talk) 17:09, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Article issues
When I raised these issues several months ago, the response was to wait until until the trials conclude. Now that these trials seem to be concluded, I really think the article needs to be overhauled. I removed an excessively large quote from the end of the article. The extent of the quote exceeds what is acceptable according to copyright law, and it tends to slant the article emotionally, which isn't acceptable for an encyclopedia. The article is extremely detailed in terms of recounting of two trials and needs to be copyedited for conciseness and flow. There are far too many subsections, still a large reliance on quotes, and choppy prose because of it. Hopefully, this will be addressed soon, or perhaps it should be referred to the copyeditors league? Wildhartlivie (talk) 19:06, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
 * This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
 * There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
 * It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
 * In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 22:31, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

On notability.
I think this is very notable. When I was writing New York City Administration for Children's Services, there was a lot about the reform caused by it. I even mentioned it there. I believe that this article is notable, especially considering a NY law allowing parents murdering their children to get life w/o parole was passed in her name- http://www.nydailynews.com/news/gov-paterson-signs-nixzmary-law-article-1.381561 -- Mysterious Gopher (talk), 00:42, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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External links modified
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Requested move 29 October 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved

3 editors support the move and 1 says maybe not. The question asked by WP:DEATHS is Is there a murder conviction in the case?, to which the answer appears to be no. Accordingly, I find a consensus to move. (non-admin closure) Havelock Jones (talk) 10:05, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Murder of Nixzmary Brown → Killing of Nixzmary Brown – Tragic as it was, the perpetrators were convicted of manslaughter, not murder. WP:DEATHS requires specifically a murder conviction for a death article to have "Murder" in the title. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 23:41, 29 October 2021 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Support per nom and WP:DEATHS. 162 etc. (talk) 17:32, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Manslaughter is not murder. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:42, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Maybe not: On the other hand, from reading the article, it appears that the only reason the convictions were for manslaughter rather than murder was just that "each accused the other of inflicting the final, fatal blow" in this horrific tragedy – i.e., there was only a lack of clarity over who should be considered the murderer rather than whether there was a murder or not. Under such a circumstance, one might expect them to both be found guilty of murder if both were involved anyway, but I suppose that's not what happened. It might still meet the non-lawyer's colloquial definition of 'murder'. —&#8288;&#8202;&#8288;BarrelProof (talk) 22:31, 4 November 2021 (UTC)