Talk:Kiss/Archive 1

Is the band usually written in capitals thus "KISS"? If so, I suggest the band be moved to KISS (with a link). -- Tarquin

Heh. I was hoping there would be some "History of the Kiss". Maybe based on study of other cultures or similar animals or something? Do we know anything about it? - Omegatron

I think this article puts to much emphasis on the sexual form of kissing. Perhaps an American cultural prejudice? cf. Cheek kissing

Japan and Kissing

 * In Japan, kissing is done as "proof of affection but not love;" mothers kiss their children yet Japanese lovers do not kiss one another.

Oh, really? Japanese lovers don't kiss one another? I'll delete this until someone provides citation.--Staticshakedown (talk) 19:05, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

First Kiss
It seems to me there is nothing other then the picture that relates to the 'first kiss,' which to me seems to be a very important part of western culture. There is most certainly stigma and social norms involving the first kiss, as well as things like people saving their first kiss for marriage. It just seems like a significant enough thing to get its own section. --Darnedfrenchman (talk) 19:18, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Illustration?
What would anyone think about a photo as an illustration?

How about this one:



Or how about this one:



...To be reduced in size somewhat via the thumbnail feature... -- Infrogmation 21:01, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * The article has enough pics for its length, but French kiss doesn't have any pictures yet, so I think I'll add the second pic to that article. CyborgTosser (Only half the battle) 19:47, 12 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Heh, the picture now illustrating the article is even better. -- Infrogmation 18:44, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Just removed this image because three is too many for such a short article. violet/riga (t) 12:46, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have an even better proposal. How about a photograph of the statue, "The Kiss" by August Rodin?



Perhaps the greatest and most intimate depiction of a kiss ever, at least in my personal opinion... -Kasreyn 05:07, 13 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Um dude, do you really believe it is the "most intimate depiction of a kiss ever", or did you hear that quote in a documentary and decide to adopt it as your own "opinion" because it sounded good? 202.191.106.124 03:39, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * What a needlessly insulting thing to say to me. No, for your information, some people are still alive today who can speak eloquently if they so choose.  Some of them even edit Wikipedia.  Good day.  Kasreyn 05:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm. On second thought, that illustration of the statue is done from a great angle for romanticism but a terrible angle for an encyclopedia; you can't see the lips!  Argh!  I'll see if I can find a photo which actually shows the lips touching.  -Kasreyn 05:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

The current picture is terrible: the pose of the woman is too submissive for the 21st century. Also, look at the guy's left leg. It looks like it isn't even attached to him.--345Kai 17:24, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Although I don't think the picture is the best, I can't see what you mean by "the pose of the woman is too submissive". If it's because he is looking down and she's looking up, that would simply be because he is taller than her. Blaise Joshua 12:42, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Take another look: the woman is actually not shorter than the man. If she'd stand upright, she'd be at least as tall as him.  She  is contorting her body so that she can be below him, so as to show him he's superiour:  that's what's wrong with the picture.--345Kai 06:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmmm. I think you might be reading a bit too much into this. If they both stood upright, the man is clearly taller than her. I can't see anything wrong with it along the lines you have suggested. Blaise Joshua 22:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

That is how a good kiss should be regardless of height. Look at all the great kisses though out film, art and literature. Gone with the wind being a good example. Look at the 3 images above the first looks like they are nothing more than good friends, the second looks like the guy is drunk and the girl is jsut putting up with him yet Rodin's Kiss is regarded as one of the best depictations history has to offer.Schnizzle 12:28, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Should one of the pics in this article should be replaced by a famous movie kiss? --68.183.43.118 17:07, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

History of Kiss
Re to Omegatron's question above:

According to Texas A&M University anthropologist Vaughn Bryant,"References to kissing did not appear until 1500 BC when historians found four major texts in Vedic Sanskrit literature of India that suggested an early form of kissing. There are references to the custom of rubbing and pressing noses together. This practice, it is recorded, was a sign of affection, especially between lovers. This is not kissing as we know it today, but we believe it may have been its earliest beginning. About 500 to 1,000 years later, the epic Mahabharata, contained references suggesting that affection between people was expressed by lip kissing. Later, the Kama Sutra, a classic text on erotica, contained many examples of erotic kissing and kissing techniques." History has it that the Greeks learnt about kissing from the Indians and lip-locked their way throughout Europe and Asia around 326 B.C. However, it was the Romans who actually made kissing a popular practise. They had several forms of kissing, including the osculum, which was a kiss of friendship often delivered as a peck on the cheek as a form of affection. 

We need to put some history in the article. deeptrivia (talk) 03:29, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I couldn't agree more. It's a bit sloppy, as it is.--Ioscius (talk) 23:21, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes. Aparently kissing as we know it today is a relatively modern development of Western industrialized culture. Perhaps advances in dentistry and hygiene have a lot to do with this, but kissing among people in the pre-industrial Europe and USA, Africa, Asia, Native America, and Polynesia seems to have very little or no historical context depending on where one looks. It looks like modern kissing (particularly open mouthed sexual kissing), similar to the hot dog and the hamburger, is a relatively new development that has spread from the culture of the USA to other cultures. Here is a link to a web page that supports at least a little of what I am pointing out: The Origins of the Kiss

--Victorcoutin 08:03, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Image upside down?
It seems that the image of a kiss as a symbol is upside down. In the interest of being informative, perhaps it would be more appropriate to find a picture that is oriented correctly.

Djkimmons 06:00, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

New image needed
Since the image of "asymmetry in kissing" is about to be deleted because it's another of Toronto98's copyvios. Good riddance, if you ask me. I've nothing against french kissing but that photo was just gross.

Can anyone find an image of "asymmetry in kissing" that isn't a copyvio and doesn't look gross? Kasreyn 04:47, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Factual Innaccuracy
I believe the assertion that Nelson's last words were "Kiss me, Hardy" is now held to be utterly false. If in doubt, look at the Wikipedia page on Nelson and any authorative source. This error should be changed, although mention could still be made of the common misconception. Blaise Joshua 12:47, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

With no disagreement, I've edited this section. Blaise Joshua 12:04, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

kiss as a greeting in europe
It is common practice -regardless of gender- to use a kiss (cheek to cheek) as a greeting at least in Belgium and France, and probably in most of western europe. Among male friends, it has mostly replaced handshake. In France, it is customary to kiss each cheek, once ore more according to local tradition.


 * In my experience, kissing between men is extremely common in Southern Europe, and is perhaps less common but not regarded as unusual in Latin America. I think the article should definitely reflect this, if only to denote the fact that, in many cultures and locales, physical contact (hugging as well as kissing) between adult males can be non-sexual. 87.216.180.106 01:27, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Why is this section not in the article? It's actually the reason I visited the page - If you look at the "Kiss" page in any other European language, there is a very useful breakdown of customary greetings by region and nationality. I don't think it belongs under "Kiss as Affection" - I've certianly had to greet people I didn't feel very affectionate about.


 * Kissing in Southern Europe (at least Portugal and Spain) is very common as a mean of greeting between women or man-woman (even if they are not friends and are meeting for the first time, and regardless of age difference). Between men, it is more unusual and only used as greeting between family members. But it happens sometimes between close friends in certain situations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.180.84 (talk) 20:33, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

pro-homosexual bias
There are too many images of same-sex couples kissing. Homosexual kisses are less than 10% (even of erotic kisses) and are illustrating disproportionately. --Uncle Ed 21:04, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * They make up in intensity for what they lack in frequency. But seriously, there are a bunch of non-gay pictures, one of two males and one of two females. This seems about as balanced as you are ever going to get. Since the frequency of same-sex relationships in western countries is not indicative of the whole world one could even argue that more same-sex pictures are in order. Haiduc 23:36, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Nonsense. Article is in no way biased - 1 out of 7 is m-m.  Tag removed. &mdash; Moondyne 08:29, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe there is no basis for the theory that 10% of people are homosexual or engage in homosexual activities, and 1 out of 7 I've never even heard of. What may be true is that a significant portion of people are not 100% heterosexual, and that a significant amount of people have engaged in homosexual activities at least once in their life, but I don't believe that 1 out of 10 people are homosexuals. I would put it down to about 1-2% depending on where you are in the world. Rfwoolf 11:51, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Well whatever they were before, homosexual kisses are now 2 of 4 (if you count the proposal, 2 of 5). That is definately not an accurate demographical representation -Zeus- 15:08, 25 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by -Zeus- (talk • contribs)
 * The biased part I see is that the m-m kiss is aligned with how it's being expressed as a friendly action. In my opinion that's a sneaky way of making it fall into an acceptable form.  The picture is also war-related, the only picture with a negative theme (even though I believe the photo is meant to be seen as a positive, I can't be sure as I don't understand what is written).--Vlsi0n (talk) 06:48, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

From my view today, there is not a single gay kiss shown on this page. It should be noted that the worlds longest kiss is a same-sex kiss. It should be added but chances are some of the Wiki bigots won't add this type of information because of fundamentalist bias. http://mattyandbobbykiss.tripod.com/ 178.25.204.209 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:31, 23 October 2010 (UTC).

hongi
In the hongi practiced by the Māori of New Zealand, noses are pressed, not rubbed, except by inexperienced non-Māori visitors. This act is never referred to as a kiss. Copey 2 00:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Possibly something add to the Screen Kiss section?
I've noticed in some cultures that don't allow kisses to be shown casually in the open(like Asia), would have the two love interests share someting like a piece of fruit or a drink insted. Am I wrong, or could this go into the artical?

Kiss is not an Onomatopoeia
perhaps onomatopoeic)

Since when does a kiss make a sound that sounds like, "Kiss." It doesn't, unless either of the people doing it make that sound. The noise reminds me more of a high-pitched form of a raspberry when I hear it on T.V. or whatever. I say the "perhaps onomatopoeic" part should be removed from the article, for not being NPOV (Neutral Point of View) and for being wrong. It is hard to classify the sound, as I'm trying to figure out what it would sound like, since my "high-pitched raspberry" isn't sounding right.


 * That is a commonly held opinion among etymologists. Just because you don't feel the word sounds onomatopoeic doesn't mean it wasn't. It does sound like an onomatopoeic to me, far more than, say, bow-wow for a dog's bark. But at any rate, it doesn't matter how much I think it sounds like the sounds that can come from kissing, that is simply a common theory among etymologists and thus should be included. Cereal Box Conspiracy 19:28, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

haha high pitched rasberry! thats amazing keep up the good work! :)Funkeydog (talk) 03:49, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Social Darwinism?
The sections that read "Women are subconsciously more attracted to men whose immune system proteins and genotype are different than her own, leading to offspring with resistance to a greater number of diseases, and thus having a better chance of survival.", as well as the next sentence about couples bonding if they have the right "chemistry" (no citation), are not substantiated by any research in the source article. I've left the citation intact (#1, since it also relates to the another sentence in the paragraph), in case people want to take a look. The article is from what appears to be a journalism school's student-run website, that does not cite its sources, stating only that it is "the most widely accepted theory."

If anyone can come up with an actual study that supports this view, I would be happy to leave it there.

However, it may be useful to know that this seemingly uncontentious statement is part of a controversial theory called social darwinism, which holds that our *learned social behaviours* can be explained by biological evolutionary processes. (Standard theories of evolution hold only that our physical attributes, and possibly our unlearned instincts, are shaped by evolution.) Social darwinism may be quite valid in the case of instinctual behaviours. However, it is also frequently pressed into service to justify colonialism (weakening another people, they might say, allows one's own descendants to thrive), genocide (killing off part of the gene pool is contended to improve the chances of one's own genetic material being passed on), and rape (disregard for consent is explained as an adaptive behaviour, since it increases the pool of sexual partners and therefore the potential number of offspring). The fact that evolution can just as easily refute these contentions as support them is usually not addressed (under some other circumstance, the social darwinist could claim that genocide is evolutionarily counter-adaptive, since it limits the diversity of the gene pool and thus reduces our ability to mate with very different genotypes... basically the argument about genotype-based "disease resistance" that shows up in citation #1 of this article.)

So, if you do find a source purporting to have scientific evidence in support of some social behaviour being based in "more disease-resistant offspring," or some such -- especially if it is still unknown whether the behaviour in question is instinctual or not -- it may be worth investigating a little more carefully to determine the source's POV. Wordie 01:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think Social Darwinism applies in this case. I think somebody just got their facts wrong. As far as I know, humans don't make use of pheromones, and the odors we have left over from an earlier period in our evolution have turned into a turn-off for some reason. Besides, wasn't Social Darwinism pretty thoroughly debunked in the mid-20th century? – Lantoka  (talk) 01:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe someone got their facts wrong -- I hope you're right. In this case, facts were gotten very drastically wrong by a university program dedicated to science reporting.  Unfortunately, arguments in this vein are very common, wrong or not.  The argument is a bit circular.  To the best of my understanding, the train of thought is, "some social behaviours could be considered evolutionarily adaptive if they were influenced by evolution.  This proves that those behaviours *are* influenced by evolution, even if no genetic evidence has ever been found, and even though our social behaviours change much faster than inheritance can account for."  As you can imagine, this is a very convenient kind of pseudo-science for "proving" the "inevitability" of human society as it is now, usually in order to defend it from people who are trying to redress some injustice.  (People who commit rape "can't help themselves, it's genetic.")


 * As for social darwinism being debunked, it has been, as thoroughly as any scientific idea can be. One problem with social darwinism is that it does not allow for a counterexample.  Philosophy-of-science  jargon calls this "falsifiability" (not falseness, that's totally different).  Any idea that it is *impossible* ever to disprove is not a scientific theory; it is an article of faith.  Which makes it damnably difficult to debate or debunk.  These things tend to live on in the public imagination forever.


 * See, for a perfect example, the article on pheromones, where a subtle form of the same disagreement is occuring. That article clearly states that *no* peer-reviewed research has *ever* demonstrated that pheromones affect human behaviour.  As that statement gets tested again and again, it comes to be thought of as a "theory": human behaviour is not affected by pheromones.  This is a scientific theory (is "falsifiable"), because a single credible study showing the opposite will prove it wrong.  However, noone yet has.  Regardless, someone at the NYU school of scientific journalism contradicted that theory in an article, and someone quoted that article on Wikipedia.


 * The point is, science never proves anything absolutely. (that's the whole point of "falsifiability").  Some people will strain the limits of credulity by insisting (usually repeatedly) that science has failed to prove or disprove some thesis *absolutely*.  The Intelligent Design movement is a great example of this; since evolution has not been proven absolutely, evolution must be false.   At worst, this kind of tedious grasping at straws can be a subtle way to make it sound as if current scientific data supports a proposition, when in fact it merely does not preclude it (because science can't ever preclude anything).  At best, it undermines the NPOV, encyclopedic tone of an article.  A subtle point, which I will no longer belabour.  I hope Lantoka's suggestion is correct, and my worries are for nothing. :)  Wordie 00:10, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * You guys don't kiss much, do you? Smell sure feels like it plays a major part in sexual attraction. But that's all subjective... I found some info and citations relating pheromones, immune system, and stronger offspring on the Major histocompatibility complex article. I hope they're adequate. Chris goulet 08:25, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, but claiming that certain theories of the role of pheromones and histocompatibility are examples of "social darwinism" is plain wrong. This is simple evolutionary theory, which is not particularly controversial except with particular groups of people with specific agendas. And you cannot place ID and evolutionary theory on the same level, even if it's in the name of NPOV. IMO, the reference to pheromones is perfectly valid (there is plenty of scholarly material available to back this up as a credible hypothesis). 87.216.180.106 01:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Butterfly Kisses
The Bob Carlisle song "Butterfly Kisses" was insanely popular and practically legendary (I can't stand it, but I can't deny its impact on the culture). Why on earth should the phrase redirect to "Kiss"? Also, there is a female version of NAMBLA called Butterfly Kisses. Is a sexual relationship between an adult and a child somehow less disturbing and noteworthy when it's woman/girl as opposed to man/boy? The very thought that the phrase "Butterfly Kisses" doesn't deserve an article, or at least a disambig page of its own, seems ridiculous to me. - Ugliness Man 10:35, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree with butterfly kiss redirecting to kiss either. Especially not given that the article gives no reference to butterfly kissing, which is not the same as normal kissing. Hypnoticmonkey (talk) 19:15, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Trivia
"In Slang Arabic "kiss" means the female reproductive organ" - I think whoever wrote this meant the word Kuss, which is pronounced nothing like the word Kiss... this is just false. 89.138.165.53
 * It is not perhaps as false as you think. I heard the word kuss ("cunt") pronounced many times by Iraqis during my tours there, and more often than not it was pronounced as "ksss" (with the vowel elided) or even explicitly "kiss."  One of the greatest difficulties I had in communicating with Iraqis was the vast geographically specific differences in pronunciation and even denotation of slang and colloquial terms.  I'm not sure how a slang Arabic word that happens to be a homonym of an English word is relevant to the subject of this article, but the fact remains kiss is a common pronunciation of the term. --Nonstopdrivel 06:52, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

i like butterfly kisses.Korimax 20:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)korimax

this article
Is extremely weak. There is altogether no history, and altogether too much extraneous nonsense. And the notable section is really upsetting. . . does someone seriously think that one of the most famous kisses in moviedom was Leo and Kate Winslet in Titanic?!?!?! Gag me. Nobody even thinks to mention Catullus, who wrote what is really more likely to be the most famous kissing poem, ever. Large parts of this should be axed, I think, or moved to a list (without the POV adjective "notable") to maybe an List of kisses in media. Then the parts that are here ought to be written for adults, and not in the childish tone that this article is written. We might also want to open a history book or two, and say more than "Anthropologists don't know why we kiss". . . --Ioscius (talk) 23:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Kissing & Diseases
I've edited "Kissing can result in the transmission of diseases from one another. These diseases include Mononucleosis, herpes, and even HIV has been recorded in one case." because the reference sayd there has been only ONE reported case (with unusual circumstances of transmission) and there's common consent in medicine in this matter. HIV does NOT spread by kissing.. --Juan Manuel 13:09, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Public health administration views
We are told to wash our hands... add what the official advice is about kissing, in today's world of flu, etc... Jidanni (talk) 04:19, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Butterfly kisses
This I think does deserve a page of it's own. It is the a close act of love. One person closes their eyes and their partner lies their eyelashes gently across the first ones cheek and flutters it. like a butterfly landing on a cheek. [mdogg20] 172.188.113.81 21:50, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

"The scientific name for kissing is osculation"
It's a rarer Latinate synonym. In what sense is it "the scientific name"? The Wednesday Island (talk) 05:20, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Judas
User:Victorcoutin moved Judas from history to folklore, on the grounds that the Bible is not a history book. While the views of many on some aspects of the truth or otherwise may reasonably be seen as POV, my understanding is that the betrayal of Jesus is well documented. I see moving it to folklore as deliberately pejorative. Ringbark (talk) 23:15, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * First, the item wasn't "the betrayal of Jesus," it was the kiss of Judas. It was originally under folklore, moved to history without documentation. While isolated items in the bible are verified by actual historians, I don't believe that the kiss of Judas is one of those items. I would like you or another wiki-author to provide documentation of the kiss of Judas having been verified by historians. Otherwise it is an unverified religious myth. In any case, the undoing of the item's movement by an anonymous contributor wasn't at all meant in a pejorative way, this item was originally under folklore and moved anonymously without documentation. --Victorcoutin (talk) 03:22, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Update to my last reply: First, Mr. Ringback why is it that you seem to have forgotten about this topic? The gospels inclusions of historical events mixed with religious anecdotes do not make them into history books. No known historians take the entire New Testament literally. Second, I have done a little more research on this topic. Even the gospels do not clearly verify the kiss of Judas as an historical event. According to the book 'The Kiss of Judas' by Robert Holt, the kiss of Judas was only documented in two of the four gospels. Those two gospels, Matthew and Mark, are the least reliable of the gospels. Luke and John do not document the kiss of Judas at all. As well, Matthew wasn't there, and Mark wasn't there (Mark wasn't even a disciple and many scholars attest that Mark copied his gospel from Matthew). John was there. John did not document any kiss of Judas. Luke, although he wasn't there, did not document any kiss of Judas, but only the question "if" Judas intended to betray Jesus with a kiss. Nowhere in the sequence of events did Luke document the kiss of Judas. Here is the link to an excerpt of the book dealing with this topic . Even in the gospels, there isn't enough documentation to justify 'The Kiss of Judas' as an historical event. As well,  Ringbark seems to have lost interest in the topic. The item was originally in the folklore section. It was moved to the history section by an anonymous user without documentation. Having said that, I will redo Ringbark's undo of my original undo (that's a mouthful). --Victorcoutin (talk) 13:15, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Merge proposal
I see that WhereIsTheCite? has proposed a merge from Kissing booth to this article. I support that, as the content of the other article could be included here with no significant increase in length. Tuvok[T@lk/Improve me] 11:17, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Potential image problem
The use of Image:Vj_day_kiss.jpg in this article is probably not legitimate fair use... AnonMoos (talk) 13:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Bad wording
"In Eastern European countries till recent times, kissing between two men on the lips as a greeting or a farewell was as normal as the modern Western handshake. This custom has nearly died out due to Western influence. When was "Eastern Europe" not part of "Western Influence...?" I find it weird since most people equate "Europe" with part of "Western influence." Can someone fix this? BTW, "Slavic", etc is not part of "Eastern Europe" either... O.o;; And Muslim is a religion, not a set of countries... There are many countries outside of Europe that have the Muslim religion. Why is it in the same paragraph? Someone needs a map.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 08:52, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Notable kisses
I moved the Doisneau and Chalkin photograph notes from "In art" to "In photography," simply because it seemed to make more sense. Similarly, shouldn't Andy Warhol's "avant-garde film" be moved from "In art" to "In film"? I didn't want to make the move if it wasn't appropriate; most of the films listed in the section are mainstream-y. AshleyScripter {talkback} 21:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

New Article Branched
I suggest moving the "Notable Kisses" trivia section and putting it into it's own article, namely, Kissing in Popular Culture. -- Is this fact ... ?  05:08, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * That would be kissing in popular culture; we only use capitals where necessary (they don't come cheap, you know). Richard001 (talk) 10:46, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose that move as a lot of things have nothing to do with popular culture although I agree some of it needs to be excised/integrated into the text. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 12:41, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Images
Shouldn't there be at least one picture of two people kissing, if only because a description in words is much more complicated then simply depicting the act. Moreover Wikipedia advises to have images for good and [Wikipedia:Featured_article_criteria| featured articles]], if possible. Perhaps the best choice is a critically acclaimed piece of sculputure, photography, film or painting (See The Kiss or the list of artistic kiss images on the commons, f.i.). Or otherwise a lot of people have shared their personal moments on the commons as well. C mon (talk) 07:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the Romeo and Juliet image is fine considering they are the most famous fictional lovers- many of the personal images don't have OTRS permission (i.e. the persons depicted have explicitly given permission) so are not suitable to put here. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 19:59, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Fine, put that one back in, but please don't undo the extensive work of two other editors in the process. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 20:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * WHy is there a gay agenda being pushed on wikipedia. First, it was the gay sex photos, now it's two guys kissing. Please, stop this shit.76.177.35.231 (talk) 00:38, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Eyes closed
When kissing on the lips, why do people always close their eyes? 96.229.193.68 (talk) 09:03, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

U.S. Regions?
In the southeast, kissing is an expression of ROMANTIC affection. People never kiss each other on the cheek, not even close relatives. 96.10.0.34 (talk) 16:04, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Nonsense. Relatives in the southeast do kiss each other on the cheek, particularly children and their parents or grandparents when they say goodbye or even just goodnight.  Dunno, maybe not in your family.  But as a general rule, as a form of greeting, most non-related Americans do not kiss each other unless they are in a romantic relationship.  And it is particularly rare for heterosexual males to kiss each other unless they happen to come from a culture where males traditionally do this.  Even then, usually only 1st or 2nd generation.  Even then, males will generally never attempt to kiss a new male acquaintance unless they are absolutely sure that they identify with customary male kissing.  A firm handshake is the customary greeting amongst males in the US, regardless of region.  This should be included in the article somewhere, because the way it reads now suggests male-male kissing is common in the US.  It is not, except in minority populations, and of course homosexuals in a romantic settings. -- Trippz  10:58, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Greeks
Two almost contradictory passages which should be explained more, perhaps: «Kissing in Western cultures is a fairly recent development and is rarely mentioned even in Greek literature» (Kiss), «Yet even among higher civilizations Crawley saw differences: while the kiss seems to have been unknown to ancient Egypt, it was well established in early Greece [...]» (Kiss). --Nemo 07:30, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Nyrop
«The friendly kiss until recent times usually occured only between ladies» etc.: as far as I know this is not true, e.g. in Nederlands. Nyrop, as a 1901 book, seems very anglo-centric. Below you can read: «In Slavic cultures until recent times, kissing between two men on the lips as a greeting or a farewell was not uncommon and not considered sexual». This article is not so consistent... --Nemo 07:40, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Leonid Brezhnev and Erich Honecker kissing image


The above image is placed here for discussion and opinions as it seems to add a new type of image that is not actually discussed in the body. It may have some other issues that should be cleared up but a few that I see are the following:


 * Satire. The article is described by one of its sources as a satirical painting. The definition of "satire" according to Dictionary.com is "the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc." It would seem that the painting of two former communist block leaders kissing was intended to have a secondary meaning. For example, the  Guardian discussed it. If someone wants to add some material in a new section for "satire," then do so.


 * Miscaptioned. Related to the above, the caption describes it as "The kiss of friendship." While there is a section for "friendship," this image is of a "political friendship," (aka "political alliance") so the political nature and inspiration of the painting should be made clear and covered in the body. The fact that the original was painted on the Berlin Wall makes that relevant. And as reading some references also makes clear, this was more a standard greeting kiss, and did not always represent "friendship" (i.e. from Guardian article: "Whether Honecker was a particularly sloppy kisser, I don't know. But it's clear that the two men didn't like each other.")


 * Original art. There are a number of classic paintings used to illustrate the topics discussed in relevant sections. As an original painting, this does not illustrate any of those topics.


 * Promotional. The original artist is a professional painter and there should be no implication that adding this image to articles is promotional.

Basically, the image has problems about whether it adds anything to an article about kissing. This focused topic should not divert into illustrating political satires which only confuses readers, forcing many to read about former leaders, the Berlin Wall, and political philosophy, to understand the unstated satirical message of the painting. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 20:41, 15 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The article you're citing reports also: «"Of course it is not a political picture." he said. "It's all about love"». Anyway, the painting is very similar to this photo (linked from Dmitri Vrubel article, in whose history you can find also this link, where you can find also a Gorbaciov-Honecker kiss), which we can't add because it's not free.
 * The image illustrates the following passages: «"it seldom or never takes place between men, with the exception, however, of royal personages,"»; «In Slavic cultures until recent times, kissing between two men on the lips as a greeting or a farewell was not uncommon and not considered sexual» (which is considered unsourced, but quite obvious for me and many europeans). I added it as a (famous) "slavic" kiss (and a famous kiss in general): if you can find another one to add, we can consider it.
 * I can't see how that could be promotional: the painting is very famous. Can you link a guideline which suggests not to add images of recent works of art? --Nemo 21:08, 15 November 2009 (UTC)


 * As it is, the caption is inaccurate. The image lacks any valid context in the article and does not truly represent a "kiss of friendship." As your source states in the first sentence, it's quite the opposite of "friendship" and is a "satire." Among the other common descriptions you can find for the painting are those that call it the following: "graffiti," "part of a fraternal socialist ritual," or a "Mortal Kiss." One book states that "East Germans read the kiss as a sign of their country's looming russification."


 * Unless the image can honestly illustrate some of the commentary in the article, it is gratuitious and distracting. The article should not be used as a gallery for political statements. Hopefully you can create valid context and commentary for it, and fix the whitespace at the same time. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 01:09, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

3O per request
You are both right: I suggest: Write a section about this kind of ritual kisses, and move the image there. Strike "kiss of friendship" from the caption, and replace it with "satirical painting showing a ritual kiss of ...". I suggest using the following sources for a start: this overview about evolution of ritual kisses in Europe, from the Middle Ages to Communism, and this paragraph concerned with the specific kiss the image is about. This should do. Best Skäpperöd (talk) 19:03, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The image is great to illustrate ritual kisses and should not be removed from the article
 * The section it is in now is not the best choice, and the caption needs to be reworked accordingly.


 * Thanks for the opinion. It seems another alternative might be to simply add the original photograph that the satirical painting was made from as "fair use" non-free image. That avoids having to cover multiple new topics such as "satire" and "ritual." As an illustration for a "type of kiss," which is what the new section should focus on, the photo is the logical choice, since adding a section on "satirical paintings" with kissing as a source concept, goes away from the article's focus by then discussing a painting, including why it was made, by whom, when, and trying to explain why it was a satire. That could lead to other topics (off-topic) and links to the persons shown and international politics, such as the Berlin Wall where it was painted. IMO, if any reference to the derivative painting is made, it should best be briefly mentioned in the new section on "ritual kisses," or maybe in the photo caption. But it will still seem gratuitous as turning to a discussion of original artworks and artists. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 21:32, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Image replaced with accurate source photo for reasons explained above. If there are problems, please discuss. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 04:34, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I thought fair use was limited to articles where no other image could reasonably replace a certain image, like File:AguirreGermanPoster .jpg in Aguirre, the Wrath of God. But maybe I am to narrow-minded on that, and I am not an expert on non-free content issues. Best Skäpperöd (talk) 17:18, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

POV and other problems
I'm about to add several tags to the article, so I thought I would explain why first.

No doubt kissing is awesome, but Wikipedia must be asexual- NPOV. As it is, the article has a very positive outlook on kissing. For example, before I deleted it a minute ago, the lead read "It is considered "an act expressive of endearment," as something "most natural."[1] Sir Richard Steele writes, "Tis certain, Nature was its author and it began with the first courtship." If "it" referred to abortion, racism, homosexuality, or anything else, I doubt this would be acceptable. (Note: I'm not equating these subjects with eachother- I just picked controversial subjects.)

Other problems include a heavy reliance on a single text, Christoper Nyrop's The Kiss and its History; the majority of the article could easily be renamed "Nyrop's opinions on kissing". Who is Nyrop and why do his ideas matter so much? Also, Wikipedia is not an instruction manual, so, while not completely useless, Intro to Kissing needs reworking. I'm sure not everyone cares whether they have privacy or kiss on the street. And, as noted above, there is a heavy bias toward western views toward kissing. Liqudluck ✽ talk 01:12, 21 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Removing tags. No other comments or actual cites to support the NPOV claim, "the article has a very positive outlook on kissing." Please provide cites supporting the "negative" side of kissing, not simply opinions. Feel free to "rework" intro with improvements. There was no proof that the issue has a Western bias. You could claim that about articles on democracy, psychology, space exploration, movie industry, or suburbia. If something is either more common, or has been more photographed or written about in Western countries, then discussing it doesn't make it biased. Simply add your own sources to add other areas. Deleting material by saying, "I'm sure not everyone cares whether they have privacy or kiss on the street" is your personal POV. Of course "everyone" doesn't care. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 20:07, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

People don't kiss in eastern culture?
"In China, for example, a similar expression of affection consists of rubbing one's nose against the cheek of another person. In Japan, kissing is done as "proof of affection but not love;" mothers kiss their children yet Japanese lovers do not kiss one another. In other Eastern cultures kissing is likewise not commonly done. "

What? I'm sure this paragraph is written by anyone who knows nothing about asia at all. I'm chinese. Firstly, I've never seen anyone "rubbing one's nose against the cheek of another person". Secondly, "Japanese lovers do not kiss one another" - that is totally rubbish. Kissing is very common nowadays, as most people watch hollywood movies in this globalized world. Although I must say, we only kiss with lovers, while kissing with parents or with ordinary friends is not as common. 144.32.56.121 (talk) 02:24, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. I lived in Tokyo for 10 years, and my wife is Japanese. The statement in this section about Japan was probably true about 50 or 100 years ago, but not today. It is highly inaccurate about the current state of kissing in Japan. Lovers do it all the time. Since this section is unreferenced anyway, any objection to deletion of the incorrect statements? --Westwind273 (talk) 18:47, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Agree. But it would also be nice to have some more details about kissing in other cultures instead of just Western, both in earlier years and today. -Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 19:48, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Voyeur picture
I've removed the low-quality, semi-nude voyeur picture again (but I assume the person who keeps adding it will just put it back). Someone else called it "creepy" and I agree. It's not appropriate for this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.94.164.21 (talk) 12:14, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I called it creepy, I was the one, and I stand by my previous statement. Wikiwatcher1 might roll in and go "but those were my cousins, I was allowed to take that picture, they gave me permission!" but that doesn't make the image high quality, or not creepy. Thank you, 72.94.164.21. --96.243.180.45 (talk) 02:43, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Just a candid of a passionate couple taken on a hike. If others want to put it back in, they can. Personally, I'm a little surprised to have a photo like this called "creepy." Especially in this article. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 05:59, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


 * A bit more background detail might help explain the photo. It was taken during the (locally) well-known 1969 Spring break, when thousands of students descended on some of the nature areas in Palm Springs, Calif., including this one. This was just a few months before Woodstock, so you get the idea of the cultural atmosphere. I took this photo not many yards away. Immediately after this event, the canyons were closed to the public for over 30 years, as they were on Indian-owned land, and they didn't like the trash that the students left. Nor did they want it to become a permanent fun-spot. They reopened around 2002(?), but it now costs $12.50 per person to hike on the trails, and with a required tour guide. They even have a visitor's center. Here's a a more recent photo.
 * After they reopened, I took a number of similar photo prints that I made, including the "creepy" one, to the head of the center and he wanted to show them to the tribal group meeting, to see if they should be displayed at the center for some historical background. They decided against it - too risque. However, they were pretty amazed at some of the photos since I may have been the only one there who took photos (I was a semi-pro at the time, working for a number of area newspapers, besides having been the high-school and college photographer.) Suffice to say, despite the private-appearing "kissing" photo, this was a very public gathering with a lot of smoke in the air and much more nudity. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 20:08, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


 * It's not necessarily the circumstances of the photo, nor the nudity (I think the Rodin sculpture is perfect for this article), that concerns me. It is rather the impression the photo gives.  With the leaves in the foreground, it gives the unavoidable impression that it was taken by someone lurking behind bushes spying on an unsuspecting topless girl.  That's the reason for the "creepy" voyeuristic feel.  There's got to be much better photos available for representing a romantic kiss - something that doesn't exude titillation. 72.94.164.21 (talk) 20:45, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Really guys, I think you are the ones who have your mind in the gutter. The background story is of liberation and free love in an atmosphere that we will never be privy to. I was not in any way shape or form titillated by this photograph. I thought, "Awwww," how cute. And then I moved on. I went to the discussion page and saw this topic and felt I need to say something as wikiwatcher is being attacked for no reason. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.252.117.155 (talk) 10:06, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Of Love KISSES PASS EPIGENETIC PHEROMONES IN THE PATHOGENESIS OF SOCIOPATHY
This reference (#21) is extremely dubious. Reading the first page of the book reveals a nearly Time Cube level of crazy. An excerpt:


 * Bad thinking does not cause misbehavior problems. Certain easily avoidable biological transgressions or sins can, but so can air pollution. It could be your sin, or your spouse's or your parents' or that of the grandparents, even the great grand parents. Next, you can alleviate your daughter's immediate difficulty with ease.  Follow the careful instructions at the very end of this book "Collection of healthy adult male facial skin surface lipid" and give your daughter the chewing gum to chew.  You need not be present, but your daughter's misbehavior requires your male, fatherly facial chemical signature, the shine on the end of your nose, on her saliva, just one time.  Your daughter needs your "blessing" to behave, to perform well in school, and now to stay out of prison.

Do we really want to be taking claims made in this book and presenting them as fact in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.188.114.196 (talk) 22:50, 15 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Not really. The article now states:
 * "Kisses pass epigenetic pheromones that are important for human health and behavioral appetites. Kissing is implicated in the pathogenesis of sociopathy, mental illness, and autoimmune disease. The non-volatile skin surface and mucosal surface lipids that are passed in kissing have some of the greatest chemical complexity of any pheromone."
 * I've heard that this exact phrase is being used by many after an unsatisfactory first date, to make sure they aren't kissed and to guarantee the other person won't call again. It's not as trite as the "I have a headache" line. Since the article does not discuss dating, I don't think it belongs here either. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 23:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Indigenous Australians
The statement that Indigenous Australians are not familiar with kissing is false. While this may have been true at some point in history, it is untrue now, and this should be clarified as it is for other (white Western) cultures. I suspect this is also true for the references to people in Africa and Malaya. Missyjack (talk) 09:10, 10 July 2010 (UTC)


 * You might be right. However, what you personally think is a point of view and cannot be used to delete sourced material. That's called original research and you will need to add additional and more current research. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 17:40, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Art gallery worth avoiding
A photo was removed as being of "poor quality." It was replaced by yet another 19th century painting, which is turning a "real world" article into what reads and looks like a historical relic which is only found in art galleries. The comment, that it is "poor quality" is one editor's point of view only; in addition, quality is not the main criteria for including photos -- relevance is. There seems no logic to replacing a real life photo with an oil painting based on one artist's imagination of what Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet might have looked like. In restoring the photo, it is done as a WP:BRD edit and should have a discussion and consensus before any more POV opinions and changes. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 17:59, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Legality
Removed:
 * Kissing on the railways is illegal in France.


 * The various lists of strange laws of the world are generally of dubious value, and the list in the newspaper cites no references. The claim (similarly to other such entries) may be technically true, as in: unauthorized entering the railway track is illegal, so you can't kiss on the track. - Mike Rosoft (talk) 17:43, 7 October 2010 (UTC)