Talk:Koi

{{archivebox|auto=yes|search=kat I am a koi cat

Origin
In fact the fish and the Japanese Kanji "錦鯉" were both originated from China in Jin Dynasty (265–420). It was first developed by Buddhism monks in temple pools. It became popular in Tang Dynasty. The fish became a element of literature especially Tang poems. One example:

Tang poet Lu Guimeng 〈奉酬襲美苦雨〉: "層雲愁天低，久雨倚檻冷. 絲禽藏荷香，錦鯉繞島影. 心將時人乖，道與隱者靜. 桐陰無深泉，所以逞短綆. " (Buhuzu (talk) 21:08, 20 February 2010 (UTC))

A few links have been added as references to the origin of the common carp and selective breeding done for carp with mutations to arrive at koi. There seems to be some dispute as to the origins, which would be expected. But any dispute regarding Origins should have references to back it up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.240.1.2 (talk) 01:21, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

There is currently a reference that goldfish were selectively bred from the common carp. However, clicking into the reference indicates that the goldfish was selectively bred from the Gibel carp. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.2.124.130 (talk) 19:35, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

There was much information related to goldfish origins in the 'Origin' section that I don't see as related to Koi, being they originated from two seperate species of carp. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.2.124.130 (talk) 19:48, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree that information related to the origins of goldfish should not be in the Origin section for Koi —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jediknight95758 (talk • contribs) 19:29, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You're agreeing with yourself. Please do not engage in sockpuppetry. OhNo itsJamie Talk 19:41, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree on several counts with the individuals (individual?) For one, the information was verified. The references were updated to not be commercial. All of the statements were verifiable in the sites listed. I also agree that origins of goldfish do not belong in origins of koi. In true 'encyclopedia' fashion, the origins of another species would not appear in the origin information of a different one.

I'm also not seeing this 'lawrencekhoo' individual participating in the Talk discussion. It seems odd to me that one user would be expected to use the Talk section first, but another user would not be.

This origins section for koi should also not address the broad group of carp as a whole. There is a wikipedia entry for carp that should capture that information. The Origins section for koi should specifically address the origins of Koi from the common carp (Cyprinus carpio). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexa415 (talk • contribs) 23:22, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

There are seperate articles to address the carp family origins as a whole, as well as the origins of goldfish. The origins of goldfish should not be comingled in an article about koi, specifically in a section related to the origins of koi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.26.179.0 (talk) 08:26, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Currently the article states that Koi were developed in the 1820s. But the article also discusses Hanako, supposedly a koi born in the 1750s. Sound fishy? 140.180.34.83 (talk) 17:42, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

There was a revision that was altered with a claim of 'vandalism', from LawrenceKHoo. I saw no vandalism. All information was sourced, relevant to the article, and verifiable. How was any of that 'vandalism'. In fact, there is now more irrelevant information in the current version. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.78.243.111 (talk) 05:31, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The prior version that was altered with the false allegation of 'vandalism' was from me. You are correct that there was no vandalism, and the prior version was fully verifiable and sources added.  The user LawrenceKHoo again reverted it back without making any attempt to utilize these talk pages, and made another false allegation that inaccuracies were introduced.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.48.52.241 (talk) 22:26, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B3%E3%82%A4#.E8.A6.B3.E8.B3.9E.E9.AD.9A.E3.83.BB.E9.8C.A6.E9.AF.89 歴史[編集] Question book-4.svg この記事は検証可能な参考文献や出典が全く示されていないか、不十分です. 出典を追加して記事の信頼性向上にご協力ください. （2015年7月） さまざまな色の鯉については中国の西晋時代（4世紀）の書物に言及されているが、錦鯉を育てることは19世紀の新潟県旧山古志村で始まったと一般的に考えられている[7]. 田で働く農民が、一部の鯉が他のものより明るい色をしているのに気づき、それを捕まえて育てたとされる. （通常であれば他よりも明るい色は鳥やその他の捕食者に見つかりやすいため、その魚は生存しにくくなる. ）山古志村で錦鯉の養殖が盛んになった背景に、1.冬期の非常食用として休耕田に鯉を養殖する習慣があり、2.山間部にある為、隠し田が多く存在し、比較的裕福であった、という2点が挙げられる. 余裕のある農家の趣味としての錦鯉の交配が進み、質の良い物が売買されるようになった. それ以降養殖は進み、20世紀までには数多くの模様が開発された. もっとも顕著なものは赤と白の「紅白」と呼ばれるものである. 1914年の東京博覧会に出品されるまでは、開発の程度が世に知られることはなかった. この東京博覧会から、錦鯉への関心は日本中で爆発的に広まった. さらに、錦鯉を飼う娯楽はプラスチック袋の発明以降世界に広まり、飛行機や船の技術の進歩により、錦鯉の輸出は速く安全なものとなった. これらの要因により、錦鯉を低い損耗率で、世界中へ輸出できるようになった. 現在は、ほとんどのペットショップで広く売られており、専門のディーラーを通せば特に高い品質のものを買うこともできる. なお、以後新潟県では錦鯉の養殖が盛んになるが、2004年の新潟県中越地震により、旧山古志村を始め、一時壊滅的な被害を受けている. また、コイヘルペスウイルスにより廃業になった業者もいる. Please try to translate this, if anybody thinks that koi are originated in Japan. https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%94%A6%E9%B2%A4 培育历史[编辑] 锦鲤最早见于中国西晋时期的记载. 到了17世纪，锦鲤开始在日本的新潟县地区有规模的饲养. 在水稻田内工作的农民发现有些鲤鱼有着较光亮的色彩，于是捕捉它们回家饲养（而通常这种具有亮丽色彩的鱼较容易被发现而被鸟类或其他捕食者吃掉）. 许多的锦鲤色彩模式建立于19世纪，如著名的红白kohaku，但直到1914年当新潟锦鲤在东京展出并有一些作为礼物赠送给皇太子（后来的昭和天皇）后，外部世界才对锦鲤有所了解. 之后，对锦鲤的饲养由日本传播到了世界各地. 锦鲤现在可以在许多宠物商店买到. 锦鲤鱼最早原产于中国及东亚一带，但于日本被大量利用交配技术繁殖改良. Or try to translate this if anybody still can't understand what kind of info I'm trying to sent out.

Hanako Anachronism
If Koi truly were first developed in the 1820's, then allegations of Koi exceeding 200 years in age (e.g. Hanako born c. 1750, later in the article) are obviously false. The idea of 1 ring = 1 year is an assumption that does not appear to have been verified for this species. Fishbase gives a much more plausible maximum lifespan of 38 years for the common carp, likely applicable to the koi derivatives.


 * I've also been bothered by those statements for some time. We should inject the proper amount of skepticism into those reports of long lived koi. Please feel free to do so, I'll try to add something later. LK (talk) 08:55, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I take the 1820s date as the development of organized breeding, which doesn't preclude naturally-colored individuals having been found earlier. Indeed, if word got out to the countryside that brightly-colored fish were desirable and worth some money, that would be an incentive to try one's hand at making more... Stan (talk) 17:33, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Koi pond: dup or ad?
Can someone examine the Koi pond article to double-check that it worths staying in Wikipedia as is, or merging here, or maybe removing? It is written a bit like in promo style, but definitely non-encyclopaedic. Honeyman (talk) 13:35, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Should Asian Carp and Koi article be merged
Shouldn't these two articles be merged or make the Koi article a sub-section in the Asian Carp article. Seems redunant. Asian Carp is Chinese domesticated:

grass carp (Ctenopharyngodon idella) common carp (Cyprinus carpio)

silver carp (Hypophthalmichthys molitrix)

largescale silver carp (Hypophthalmichthys harmandi)

bighead carp (Hypophthalmichthys nobilis)

black carp (Mylopharyngodon piceus)

common goldfish (Carassius auratus)

crucian carp (Carassius carassiu)

Koi is domesticated common carp (Which the Chinese already domesticated) Why do we have a separate article about Koi?

Isn't Koi just the shortened Japanese word for Asian Carp or Chinese domesticated Common Carp. Seems redundant, we can end up with all sorts of names (The vietnamese name for Carp then have an article on that, Thai name for Carp and have a article on that, and on and on, etc. Seems redundant. We should merge these articles. --165.214.4.23 (talk) 05:36, 9 September 2010 (UTC)


 * One of the things that should be noted. Koi is not the shortened word for Carp in Japanese.  Goi is the Japanese word for you standard common carp which has not been selectively bred.  Koi is the shortened form of the word, Nishikigoi which specifically refers to carp that have been selectively bred for color.


 * It should also be noted that if you look at the timeframes for domestication, from as early as 27 BC, the common carp was known to have been domesticated already in Europe in the Roman Empire. This would pre-date Chinese domestication.


 * Finally, under your logic, to merge all of these articles into one, under the premise that it is the same species of fish; you would need to merge all of the breeds of dog into one species since they are all Canis lupus and merge all of the breeds of domesticated cats into Felis catus. 153.48.52.241 (talk) 19:44, 11 August 2011 (UTC)


 * No, it is not the same as saying combine all the breeds of dogs, the Chinese already selectively bred the common carp for color in the Royal palaces. The Koreans had it as well, they always talk about the vibrant colors of the fish that were bred to make the colors stand out more, even in the the forbidden garden ponds. To take your dog example, what's happening is the Chinese have selectively already bred the Shih Tzu and the Japanese take the Shih Tzu and are calling it by a Japanese name lets say Koi Tzu and stating it is unique to Japan. Koi is completely ingoring the fact that selective breeding for Asian Common Carp already took place. They are picking a subjective concept like vibrance in color when it looks exactly the same, stating it is brighter and calling it another breed (It is like saying Japanese Shih Tzu is redder or has a brighter white coat so it should be called Koi Tzu and unique, but things like color brightness is so subjective it is impossible to argue. That does not work, you can't do that, especially when the Chinese already selectively bred it for vibrance in color, even the Koreans did it before Japan for crying out loud. The common domesticated carp can go under a subsection of European carp by your logic and Koi should go under the selectively domesticated royal common carp that was popular in China first. --50.46.243.60 (talk) 22:42, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Koi can live for centuries???
Contradiction?!

"Koi can live for centuries. One famous scarlet koi, named "Hanako" (c. 1751 – July 7, 1977) was owned by several individuals, the last of whom was Dr. Komei Koshihara. Hanako was reportedly 226 years old upon her death.[12][13][14][15] Her age was determined by removing one of her scales and examining it extensively in 1966. She is (to date) the longest-lived vertebrate ever recorded."

Varieties/Asagi Koi : contradiction in Japanese text
The description of the Asagi Koi reads:

"Asagi (浅黄?) A koi that is light blue above and usually red, but also occasionally pale yellow or cream, generally below the lateral line and on the cheeks. The Japanese name means pale greenish-blue, spring onion colour, or indigo. Sometime incorrectly written as 浅黄 (light yellow)." [the question mark on the first text is a link to help displaying Japanese characters]

The name and the "sometimes incorrectly written as" are identical, Unicode hex codes 6D45-9EC4. Google Translate suggested 浅葱 (Ux6D45-8471), but I don't speak Japanese and therefore have no idea whether that's a better translation.

Lincmad (talk) 02:10, 5 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I do read, write and speak Japanese, and also work in the koi business in Japan. The correct Japanese for Asagi, as used by koi breeders in Japan is 浅黄 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulman (talk • contribs) 07:22, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Jawiki
ja:コイ is subspecies Koi or species Common carp? Newone (talk) 10:28, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Hello
Are there koi in Central Park? I think I saw one there back in 2005 when I visited New York —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.211.43 (talk) 01:06, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

age of koi
in the article it says the koi were developed in the 1820s but later on its says the oldest koi was 226, so 1820+226=2046 this cant be right,

also this particular koi is mentioned to have been born in yr1751 both these things cant be true. i think we should put "it has been claimed that the koi lived for 226 yrs" since even common sense will tell you the story is absurd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123465421jhytwretpo98721654 (talk • contribs) 06:13, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Japanese Koi are originally from the Caspian Sea? Really?
To the person that keeps on introducing this text:

"Cyprinus carpio or the common carp is a species of fish from the family Cyprinidae. The origins of the common carp trace to the Caspian Sea, where the fish naturally migrated to the Black and Aral Seas, east to eastern mainland Asia and west as far as the Danube River"'

Stop it. The source cited directly contradicts that statement. The other sources make it clear that Koi are descended from Carp domesticated in East Asia. Stop introducing factual errors. LK (talk) 05:06, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Hanako the 225-year-old koi
Is it an WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim to suggest that a particular koi carp lived for 225 years, when the article goes on to say that "the greatest authoritatively accepted age for the species is little more than 50 years"? It sounds exceptional to me, but I am no carp breeder. --McGeddon (talk) 17:57, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know if this is a particularly WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim, I suspect that someone has a WP:RS saying that this was a hoax. That source should be introduced so we can put this claim to bed. CombatWombat42 (talk) 18:00, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Deciding that it is an exceptionally remarkable claim, which can only be sourced to a single "here some old animals" fluff piece in a newspaper, would also be sufficient to put it to bed. --McGeddon (talk) 18:19, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

This might be the origin? -- Neil N  talk to me  21:16, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I found these. and the translation. The image of her scale. There is a list of books written by Amano.  His 1966 book has a chapter of Koshihara family's old carp (page 57). Not all contents of his books is available, but I think the origin was one of his books. Oda Mari (talk) 16:51, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

A Suggestion?
This article is pretty in depth but I wanted to suggest maybe that when listing the different color patterns a chart like with Goldfish would be beneficial? Many of them are similar and I think it would be helpful to have pictures to reference off of since its sometimes hard to picture them and googling images for every one is tedious and not always accurate. 174.70.177.4 (talk) 02:51, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

To add to article
To add to article: are koi eaten as food in the modern day? 173.89.236.187 (talk) 04:39, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

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Errata inserted into history text
FYI The outside world was not aware of the development of color variations in Japanese koi until 1914, when the Niigata koi were exhibited at an annual exposition in Tokyo. From that time, interest in koi spread throughout Japan. It was from this original handful of koi that all other Nishikigoi varieties were bred, with the exception of the Ogon variety (single colored, metallic koi) which was developed relatively recently. The hobby of keeping koi eventually spread worldwide. Koi are now sold in many pet aquarium shops like Nom cat is a Badger204.64.198.50 (talk) 18:40, 29 December 2016 (UTC)paul mcgowan, with higher-quality fish available from specialist dealers.[5][6]

separated text should be deleted as it does not make sense.

Thank you

Wanting to add a new section
I really would like to add another section in the article that talks about how hobbyist travel to show off their koi at special shows and what an award winning fish looks like. I also wanna add something about the different types of awards they give out for the different types of koi. I am doing a wiki edit for my english class and I have never done this before. I also found a few sentences I would like to add to the breeding section of this article. One thing I am a little confused on is that there is no citation in that section of the article. Should I only add the sentences I have and also cite my sentences? Or should I do something for the whole section in general?Dee moose (talk) 15:26, 28 April 2017 (UTC)Dee moose

utsuri
"utsuri" does not mean "print". Wouldn't "showing through," etc be better? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.229.104.61 (talk) 19:06, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

Translation of Ghost koi
In the article, "人面魚" is referred to as translation of Ghost koi, but I'm pretty doubt about it. See ja:人面魚. --Akiyama(tentative) (talk) 09:48, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

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An IP user changed the name from C. rubrofuscus to C. carpio
16:38, 2 July 2018‎ 101.160.153.108, He changed the name from C. rubrofuscus to C. carpio. But author name remains "Lacépède, 1803". ''C. carpio was named by Linnaeus in 1758. So I think it's bad partial change. Recently, there is a similar change in the Wikipedia (Turbo cornutus 11:57, 14 June 2017). I can't decide what is correct. Can you correct it?--3代目窓屋 (talk) 23:50, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:21, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Hanako.jpg

"Globalize"
Since the editor in question apparently can't be bothered to actually explain on the talk page WHY they want the tag on the article, here is the edit summary rationale: the claim "Koi, though, were developed from common carp in Japan in the 1820s" is a heavily US-based bias. Nishikigoi was developed from common koi (Amur carp) much earlier in Mainland East-Southeast Asia. - Make of that what you will. -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 00:16, 4 August 2019 (UTC)