Talk:Labh Singh

Orphaned and unsigned remark
Some of the news items indicate that General Labh Singh was the second (and NOT first) cheif general of Khalistan Commando Force. If this is true then please provide any references which could indicate that Mr. Manvir Singh Chehru was the first General of this force and Labh Singh became 'Cheif General" afterwards only.

I have reverted the main article to its earlier version because of following reasons
Respected Daulakh,

Please remember that some fanatics like you have also started calling Shahid Bhagat Singh a terrorist. The way you have edited this biography, indicates your hatred for Khalistani leaders. Please note that Wikipedia is not a place to propagate your own hatred and suppress history.


 * 1. Indian Government's calling KCF a terror outfit does not mean that it survived during 1980s and 1990s without public support.
 * 2. The way you removed his involvement in the famous battle of Operation Blue Star from "Infobox Military Person" indicates that you want to suppress the true history and you want to eliminate these history pages from the world.
 * 3. Labh Singh's attacking Director General of Police during full day light inside fortified Punjab Armed Police headquarters automatically makes it a daring act regardless of it being NPOV or POV. But you have edited it so that it look like very normal terrorist act, for example no one can ever call Shahid Bhagat Singh's bomb explosions inside Parliament building as a mere terrorist act.
 * 4. You changed sentence Indian Security forces claimed that he was killed in an exchange of fire with the police to "he was killed.....". His way of killing is a dispute between Sikhs Hardliners and Indian Security forces. Your edition makes it POV.
 * 5. Why I used his name as "General Labh Singh" was because he was famously known by this name. Please note that I did not use word "General" with his predecessor "Manbir Singh Chaheru", because he was famously known with this name only.
 * 6. I agree with you that the title 'General' was a self-proclaimed title. Only regular armies can use the title, hence I will keep his name without this title in most of the text. And I refer to him as a leader of this organization.
 * 7. Regarding you "Revision as of 20:38, 31 March 2008" - (Removed a lot of stuff that looks like the terror group's manual on organizational hierarchy). I have coped this information from Khalistan Commando Force's main page on Wikipedia. Since this structure was his creation hence it is required to be added in his biography. I believe you couldn't digest his being "undisputed head" word. But, please note that truth is truth.
 * 8. Regarding your "Revision as of 20:40, 31 March 2008", where you removed his father-in-law's suicide because of police harassment, it appears that you simply want to hide Indian security force's criminal acts from Wikipedia community. And you want to show his family's migration to foreign country as a routine event. Please note that his father-in-law's suicide because of his being ‘mercilessly’ beaten up by the Punjab Police was published in famous Indian newspaper, i.e. "The tribune", i.e. []. The provided references which you had deleted were from the same newpaper. If you are an Indian then you definitely know what "The tribune" is. Please stop this vandalism/ cruelty on Wikipedia database.

Because of all these reasons, I am forced to revert it to its original formSingh6 (talk) 21:16, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Reasons for reverts

 * He is self-appointed. The KCF is not a real military outfit. It is a rag-tag team of militants. As such, anyone who calls himself a "General" of such a outfit has delusions of grandeur and suffers from megalomania. At any rate, he IS obviously self-appointed since no real authority seems to have appointed him.
 * Regarding "This bank robbery was biggest of other similar actions which Sikh militants did to weaken the government and to use Indian Money against Indian Security forces." -- This is completely unsubstantiated. Furthermore, it is completely unnecessary and useless, and also OR. There is nothing to suggest that the militants did it to "weaken the government". It's enough to mention that they robbed a bank.
 * The last point regarding the suicide, and the reference for it. The reference mentions NOTHING about suicide. Since that text is unsubstantiated and obviously fabricated, it goes.
 * "Battle" is pointless. It's a peacock term. "Encounters" is more than enough.

I'm all for compromise, but I'm not going to sit here while people add ridiculous things to this article. -- vi5in [talk] 15:45, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Answers
Vivin, discussions are started with good faith to stop the edit wars, and not to force the versions of your own liking. You preferred to force your own POV article version prior to starting the discussion (that too, when I forced you to do so).


 * Your sentence “As such, anyone who calls himself a "General" of such a outfit has delusions of grandeur and suffers from megalomania” proves your hate for the subject. I do not believe that Che Guevara, Sukhdev Singh Babbar, Subhas Chandra Bose, Labh Singh, leaders of Ghadar Party, leaders of American Revolution and leaders of several other independence organizations who used armed struggles to achieve their goals ever had such delusions of grandeur and also I strongly believe that they did not suffered from megalomania. So rank “General” is “General” even if it was bestowed upon these guys by thousands of militants/ revolutionists who followed their orders until their deaths OR by their extremely close circle associates.
 * Chicago Sun Times states (About this specific robbery) that the robbery was the latest by Sikh extremists, who have raided banks to finance a bloody four-year campaign to make Punjab state - the only part of India where Sikhs are a ... . It means that they robbed this bank to finance their anti-indian/ pro-khalistan movement. Los Angeles Times, in an article related to this biggest bank robbery of Indian history state that Bank robberies have been a major means of financing the Sikh militants' violent campaign for a separate state they call Khalistan. Bank robberies occur almost every week in Punjab. It also states that The Sikhs fled in a van after filling sacks with 58 million rupees-$4.5 million. Part of the money belonged to the Reserve Bank of India, the country's central bank, which does not have a branch in the city. Police said the robbers shouted slogans supporting Khalistan. Bank employees told the Press Trust of India news agency that the robbers said they would use the loot to buy arms..


 * Since a major part of the looted money belonged to Reserve Bank of India, hence it was a double attack where Sikh militants weakened the Indian Government finacially and they used the same Indian money to buy arms to attack Indian security forces. Hence, The sentence "This bank robbery was biggest of other similar actions which Sikh militants did to weaken the government and to use Indian Money against Indian Security forces" simply state the same, but in less complicated sentences. Deletion of this sentence portrays Sikh militants as robbers only (which is POV) and not its significance.


 * Now for your kind information only --> Eventhough Sikh militants were attacking Indian Security Forces, but! In addition, they were also attacking Indian infrastructure and robbing Indian banks which resulted in weakening the Government financially. Cynthia Keppley Mahmood in her book "Fighting for Faith and Nation: Dialogues With Sikh Militants", published by University of Pennsylvania Press, 1996 state that Sikh Militants were robbing banks, attacking Government properties and Indian security forces. In April 1984 alone, they attacked 37 Railway stations.


 * The reference which you are intentionally deleting, i.e. The Tribune clearly state “...father-in-law of Sukha lived in the abandoned house after his death for a while. However, he committed suicide by jumping himself before a train after he was ‘mercilessly’ beaten up by the police". Vivin, I am hurt to see that you are deleting a valid reference only to murder the history and show your POV version. Hey God ???. Vivin, kindly overcome your hate and please spare the dead souls and history at least.


 * Since Mr Labh Singh alias Sukha also fought against Indian Army during Operation Blue Star hence word "battle" is needed. This operation was carried out by Indian Army troops with tanks and armored vehicles which are used in heavy battles and not in mere encounters. Indian Chief of Army Staff General Arun Vaidya was assisted by Lt. Gen. K. Sunderjee as Vice-Chief in this battle. Even Indian Army could not win this battle until the third day hence using word “encounter” will be a "LIE" and a "hate" towards the subject (which is POV). And I want to stand with the facts, i.e. NPOV version.

So, Respected Vivin, I am be reverting your version now. If any other respected Wikipedia editor has any questions, kindly put them over here and I will answer.--Singh6 (talk) 18:57, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * If you're going to discuss the article can you do it without pointless hyperbole and drama? It's hard reading through all (words like "LIE" and "HATE" do little to further your discussion) that to figure out what you're actually saying. As far as the points go:


 * You realize that the KCF is not an actual military force? So calling himself a "General" actual means nothing other than just a ceremonial title. He could have called himself "Super Big-Chief Head Kahuna Of All I Survey" and it wouldn't have made a difference. The title is self-appointed. If you claim it was "bestowed" upon him by his followers or whoever, then bring sources to back that up.
 * You should have simply added that in there instead of accusing me of trying to delete it or, distort history, or desecrate the souls of the dead and the living and their cats. That sentence initially existed in the article without any sort of references or reliable source and hence was speculation.
 * You realize that robbing makes you a robber, correct? The law doesn't distinguish between people who rob to buy a thousand teddy bears to give to homeless children or people who rob to buy bombs and guns to blow up and kill people. Robbing is robbing, and those who "rob" are "robbers", like those who "dance" are "dancers". I can go on all day.
 * Your point is mere speculation. Can you say definitely that they weakened the government? I am completely ok with you adding in points saying that they did it to weaken the government. Realize (like I mentioned before) that no sources existed to back up that sentence earlier.
 * That was entirely my fault and I apologize. The reference I looked at was this one, and it didn't mention the suicide.
 * Ok, if you have a source that says that he was involved in Operation Bluestar we can add that in there. But it was just Operation Bluestar which was a military operation and not a "battle". You can only use "battle" in the figurative sense here and that would be a "peacock" term. Battles usually occur between sizeable military forces. Not between a rag-tag team of militants and an army.


 * Now I should point out your obvious bias in this subject. You clearly think that these people were some sort of larger-than-life heroes and you don't want a neutral treatment of the subject. You keep talking about NPOV and then get mad when people try to tone down your article and present it in an encylopaedic form. I'd much rather it be in that form than a fanpage. -- vi5in [talk] 22:45, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You also realize that by pointing out people like Che Guevara you're actually proving my point? A revolutionary leader with that much impact doesn't even have a militaryperson infobox on his page. He's not even called "General" "Commandante". I'm thinking of replacing the militaryperson infobox with a normal one like in Che Guevara. -- vi5in [talk] 23:21, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Death was in Khalstan what now?
It says he died in Punjab, Khalistan? ARYAN818 (talk) 17:50, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You are right. He died in India. New country "Khalistan" does not exist so far.--Beetle CT (talk) 01:10, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Comments for B-class
Its surely at C-level now, as it is well-referenced and close to being comprehensive. I think if the following is done, it can be a B:
 * one image
 * some details on his career in Punjab Police, where he worked for 12 years.
 * some details on his leaving police force and joining Khalistan Commando Force, it may not be a sudden event. How did he get inspired?
 * normalization of references (some has bare refs), some should use cite book format etc.
 * Once these are taken care of, it can go for GA-review also.--GDibyendu (talk) 13:55, 17 June 2009 (UTC) Posted by Kensplanet TC 17:26, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I have improved the article with some very valuable information and atleast 10 world level neutral references. --98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:07, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Please be sure to actually write the content, wp:copyright, rather than copying. If you must copy, you must follow wp:quote.  Many of the references will age out.  Some are specious.  All are bare refs.  Some improvements, but none of the issues listed for B-class are addressed.

- sinneed (talk) 05:01, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Sinned, please note that the contents/references of this article were checked and evaluated on June 17th 2009 by two respected WikiProject India members User:GDibyendu and User:Kensplanet and it was awarded Level-C. --98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Very respectfully, I do NOT agree with your sentence "none of the issues listed for B-class are addressed", because I did add information between "Labh Singh's leaving police force" and "joining Khalistan Commando Force". Added Ramesh Chander episode which showed "subject’s increasing loyalty towards Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale" and "his eventual move towards Khalistan Commando Force". I had also added several world level references, further improving Labh Singh's wp:notability.--98.207.210.210 (talk) 07:52, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Most of the information which you have deleted/modified was there prior to this evaluation. You must care for the content, which was already evaluated by two respected and neutral WikiProject India members. --98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I will take care of the references before they age out. If you really want to improve the article, really want to get it a better rating and ‘want to see it passing through GA-review (as indicated by User: GDibyendu then please start fixing the references before they age out.--98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Regarding wp:quote, Thanks for this kind information, I wasn’t aware that I can do so. I will read this policy and wherever required ‘will modify the contents per wp:quote. --98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * In edit 1, under section “Association with Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale” you have mistakenly killed the association of the subject with Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale. You could have used the wp:quote to keep the text of the first sentence/row.--98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * In edit 2, you have completely modified the content already checked and reviewed by WikiProject India members. --98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Through edit 3, you have mistakenly violated the wp:NPOV by simple insertion of words “attacks on police, bank robberies, and murders”. Whereas previous text showed that the attacks on police were selective, i.e. attack on Director-General of the Punjab Police, i.e. a unique act, Bank robbery was “biggest bank robbery of Indian history”, i.e. another unique act which was especially done “to finance violent campaign for a separate Sikh state of Khalistan” and not for some personal gains as it appears from your new word mere “robberies”.  Every sentence was fully referenced.--98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * In edit 4, you have converted a section heading into a wiki link.--98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * In edit 5 you have mistakenly eliminated an important reference, i.e. Genesis of terrorism By Satyapal Dang which link which alone link Labh Singh’s all three names.--98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * In edit 6, under section “Association with Khalistan Commando Force”, you have made massive changes, this single attack showed the value of the subject Vs fear in police officers.--98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * You are aware that no one is/was indulging in edit wars over here. Very respectfully, I do not agree with most of these edits. Considering this article’s evaluation by two neutral WikiProject India members, you should have discussed these points in its talk page first. --98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I will re-study the subject/article, and while re-editing, ‘will try my best to incorporate all your suggestions (because I do agree with some of them). Please note that I am also a mere human, who can make mistakes, so ‘will always appreciate your help. --98.207.210.210 (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "In edit 5 you have mistakenly eliminated an important reference" - No reference eliminated.
 * "Most of the information which you have deleted/modified was there prior to this evaluation." - Which has nothing to do with anything whatsoever.
 * "If you really want to improve the article..." - I will take whatever action seems appropriate. You may or may not support my actions.  You may or may not change the resulting text, as you choose. :)
 * "you have mistakenly killed the association of the subject with Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale" - No. I killed a copyvio. Do not restore the copyvio.
 * "In edit 2, you have completely modified the content already checked and reviewed by WikiProject India members." - having nothing to do with anything whatsoever.
 * "Through edit 3, you have mistakenly violated the wp:NPOV" - No. But feel free to improve it as you think best.
 * " this single attack showed the value of the subject Vs fear in police officers." - I can't understand your intent, but I think we are all aware of the effect of terrorism. Further, while many know that few actually SHOOT in a fire-fight, many do not.  Finally, as I said in the edit summary, the article is about Singh, not about terrorism or how many ordinary court guards will fire their weapons (or even be able to tell who to shoot towards) in a firefight.  I am sure you will make whatever edits you feel will improve the section.  Sensational wording won't get it, though.
 * "you should have discussed these points in its talk page first." - No.
 * "will always appreciate your help." - You are welcome. - sinneed (talk) 14:04, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Wording in lead.
"who took command of the Khalistan Commando Force after its first leader, Manbir Singh Chaheru, was arrested and eventually killed in 1987." I struggled with this. He took command when Chaheru was arrested, rather than when he died, as I read the sources. While the death of the 1st leader is important, I don't know that it needs a lead spot, and I think it is misleading as it is written.- sinneed (talk) 14:14, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Early life
The only references I can find for Early life in a language I know are very stylized and do not meet wp:RS. What they actually say is that he was born in the home of the individuals. The original wording was a copyvio. I am very dubious of this information. CN and dubious flag s .- sinneed (talk) 15:55, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Restored the CN flag, which had been repeatedly removed as vandalism. As I have great confidence that placing a CN flag on unsourced information is not vandalism, I have again restored the flag.  Please do not delete it without addressing the issue by adding a wp:Reliable Source.- sinneed (talk) 21:04, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Editorial hatchet - wrong person article covered more than one individual of very similar name, with poor use of antecedents
"Most of his family migrated to Canada after his death..." This was sourced to Kin of slain Babbar Khalsa chief shift abroad but: * it wasn't about the subject person These spurious "citations" and copyright violations are very very tedious.- sinneed (talk) 18:36, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * it was yet another copyvio


 * Again, do not restore this copyright violation. A interested editor might choose to place this in the article in the editor's own words, or to comply with wp:quote.  Or not.- sinneed (talk) 00:52, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * This was restored again. As a courtesy, I flagged it.  Unfortunately, the flag was removed and the section was STILL a copyvio.  I dropped it again.- sinneed (talk) 16:03, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Any objections?- sinneed (talk) 19:46, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

User: Sinneed's ruthless vandalism
Sinneed, I am forced to call your edits as ruthless vandalism now. Your edits prove that you do NOT have information about the subject at all. You do not read the references properly. You believe in editing/deleting the contents/references based on your limited knowledge. You are unable to respect the already evaluated contents of respected neutral wiki editors who have granted it rating-C. Please tell me what is your contribution to improve this article, how many unique references you have added so far? Why are you destroying the article??

I almost cried after seeing such a ruthless destruction of the article which I wanted to take to GA-review. What are you doing????


 * Sukhdev Singh is a very common name. See what you have done in [here], read the news, eventhough its heading says "Kin of slain Babbar Khalsa chief shift abroad" but the Tribune has documented information about "Mehal Singh" and Sukhdev Singh Babbar - both belong to village Dassuwal AND Labh Singh, general of Khalistan Commando Force who belong to Panjwar village. It has documented following text for Labh Singh:


 * "The entire family of Labh Singh, a self-styled general of the Khalistan Commando Force, alias Sukha Sipahi, who belonged to Panjwar village, has also migrated to a foreign land. The ancestral house of Sukha Sipahi, which remained abandoned for years after his killing at Tanda near Hoshiarpur, is occupied by his relatives


 * The house was forcibly occupied by a migrant PSEB employee a few days after the killing of Sukha. It is now occupied by his cousin, Baljit Kaur.


 * The occupant claimed that the entire family of the slain militant had migrated to Canada. She said the father-in-law of Sukha lived in the abandoned house after his death for a while. However, he committed suicide by jumping himself before a train after he was ‘mercilessly’ beaten up by the police.


 * Villagers told the TNS team that Sukha was a constable in the Punjab Police. After coming close to Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, he deserted the police and joined the militant fold"

Why??... Why are you unable to read the references???... Why are you destroying the article.... Why you are not raising your objections in this talk page to fulfill wp:consensus.....

Why you had to do this and later revert the same when others forced you to read the reference.

If you have this type of questions then why don’t you ask in the talk page before putting your own wording.

Whatever I have typed above is only a fraction of your vandalism. For sake of God... STOP !!!!... talk with other editors....Give us an opportunity to answer first.

Please join the discussions, above ... or perhaps better, wp:Be Bold and move forward
In the mean time, do not throw away the work of the other 3 editors working on this article.

Do not restore the copyright violations as you did with your large-scale reversion.

Thank you. - sinneed (talk) 00:49, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

"Labh Singh joined the police force in 1971 and continued to serve the force untill he left his job 12 years later" and: "Labh Singh was a member of the police for 12 years before becoming a militant." you may be able to determine that they are not the same.
 * If you read closely:

Or not.- sinneed (talk) 01:13, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi User:Sinneed, please raise any wp:copyvio issues overe here, I will be more than happy to discuss them and fix them while following wp:consensus along with all other respected wiki editors. As pointed by anon, in the sections above, I believe that you are vandalizing the article --Gurbinder singh1 (talk) 03:21, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks, This is what I was complaining all the time. But User:Sinneed was not leaving any chance for me to re-structure any text, he is continuously re-structuring the article with huge deletions/additions etc. As I explained in my last discussion requests/replies, he is ruthlessly ignoring all my requests to discuss the contents before modifying them. He did not even care for the checked/evaluated version (It was checked by wiki seniors while granting it 'Rating-C'. I am also willing to work with any other editor (including respected editor Sinneed to fix any otherwp:copyvio text (if it exist). --98.207.210.210 (talk) 03:43, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I again request respected editor User:Sinneed to raise all his objections over here so that other wiki editors could get an opportunity to reply to his questions. Sinneed, kindly join and discuss and lets reach wp:consensus before making any further edits.--98.207.210.210 (talk) 03:43, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * My edit summaries explain each edit. Please bring any objections here per wp:talk, or express them in the individual edits per wp:edit summary, rather than mass reversion.  Rollback is to be used only for vandalism.- sinneed (talk) 19:48, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Are all these changes vandalism to be reverted?
Are all these changes vandalism to be reverted? (updated - sinneed (talk) 04:43, 26 June 2009 (UTC) ) Edits by user:Sunnybondsinghjalwehra, myself(user:Sinneed), and user:Kensplanet have all been thrown out by user:Gurbinder singh1 and someone editing under Special:Contributions/98.207.210.210. This is part of a many-months-long series of similar wp:Ownership of articles issues.

At least one wp:copyright violation, discussed above, has yet again been restored. I have resisted this editor in a series of IDs (not, until now, wp:socks I think, just abandons an id once it has been blocked and moves on). I won't revert out the copyvio again. I am tired.- sinneed (talk) 03:57, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Changes in question: . &mdash;harej (talk) 04:36, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * My Conclusion-
 * User: 98.207.210.210 had made this article very valuable by adding 12 extra NPOV references + names + extra details on June 24th, 2009. It require a lot of dedication/hard work to actually gather this much information, which is very commendable. I have noticed that he wanted to take it up to GA-Review.
 * User:Kensplanet had normalized the references once User: 98.207.210.210 requested him to help the article. It proves that User: 98.207.210.210 really desired to make make this article better through neutral editors.
 * User:Sinneed had made 42 edits in just two days. He also made this article valuable by fixing sentences, punctuation, wording which was also a lot of work. But, he also ended up making errors during his massive edits, e.g. error 1, error 2. He also ended up changing/modifying/deleting the contents already checked/verified by User:Kensplanet and User:GDibyendu during article’s evaluation. This amount of massive re-structuring/edits require wp:Consensus between participating editors, but he did not pay any attention to it, which resulted in edit war.
 * I am unable to take User:Sinneed’s word that an editor, i.e. User: 98.207.210.210 who improved the article and desired to take it up to GA-Review, who invited neutral editors to help the article, could throw away any valuable contents/edits of this article. It was a result of edit war which started when User:Sinneed decided to make massive edits while clearly avoiding wp:consensus. Also, You all should appreciate each other’s contribution instead of blaming them WP:PA. --209.183.55.42 (talk) 07:38, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * One need not take my word for it, the edit history is available. I linked it.- sinneed (talk) 05:26, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * error 2When someone challenges a source, one should provide a quote, rather than abuse. It is indeed a pity that this was not done.- sinneed (talk) 16:08, 26 June 2009 (UTC) Further, I removed the unsourced bits... and they have been restored.  Only the 12 years of police service is sourced.- sinneed (talk) 20:02, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * error 1 - was correctly removed. The copyvio there still has not been corrected.
 * I must tell you that if I made 41 edits only only 2 errors, I am most excited. But I made more than 2.  Thus... other editors will be able to improve the article.  Please do.- sinneed (talk) 20:02, 26 June 2009 (UTC)  "error 1" copyvio has now been fixed.  The entire article needs a copy-edit, but my trust is very low, and I already did all that work once.- sinneed (talk) 16:24, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Sinneed bro, I think instead of keeping editing each other we should discuss the matter. You have done much good to the article, but also made errors. Anon has been making real nice edits, and hasn't any bad intention, so I guess we can make this article real good, if we co-operate. For example you said you couldn't find the 12 years police service in the link, which was clearly written in the link. Also Sukha Sipahi which means truthfull soldier, etc. Take care, Sunnybondsinghjalwehra (talk) 11:18, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Sunnybondsinghjalwehra, you mentioned the edit by Kensplanet... that edit was one of the ones reverted as vandalism by 98.207.210.210,user:Gurbinder singh1. The anon did indeed invite that editor... and then discarded the editor's work.- sinneed (talk) 20:06, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Sources we need for the lead (need not be in the lead)
wp:lead... we don't need to have the citations in the lead, but we do need them somewhere in the article.


 * I added the AKAs, as these are important to have in the lead so that people can find the article easily. The translation needs a source somewhere in the article.  I don't think this is disputed, so I see no reason it can't stay, but it needs a source, ideally.

Bank robbery purpose

 * The bit about the purpose of the bank robbery need a source. If it is in the sources given, please provide a quote.  This cannot stay here without sourcing.  The footnotes attached need a quote, at least, as they seem to fail wp:V.- sinneed (talk) 16:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I PROMISE that I will buy the archieved news/information from (related) given references (mentioned in the lead section) tommorrow to help this article. I will put the complete text in the Talk page tommorrow. In an effort to help this article, do you want ME to keep buying the news/articles in the future as well ? OR you insist to pay from your OWN pocket so that you could keep improving this article. Kindly explain ? --98.207.210.210 (talk) 09:55, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Please remove the focus from yourself. The only promise I want from you is that you won't mass-revert the huge effort I have made on this article again.  Please make your edits in detail, including edit summaries, or object to individual edits here.
 * Please remove your focus entirely from me, too, and place it on the content.
 * There is no need to pay for access to the references. Many of the references on this set of articles are spurious... the articles cited had hits on search engines and were dumped in the articles.  We can simply remove the statement from the lead, and leave the factual statement in the body, or take some other action.  It simply can't stay in this particular state over the long run.- sinneed (talk) 16:21, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your kind comments. I have bought the Los Angeles Times article anyways, it is one of the two references which was used to support lead section text "to finance violent campaign for a separate Sikh state of Khalistan" . The 2nd reference (Chicago Sun Times) was very expensive, I will let other editors choose if they want to buy that article. Here is its complete text from Los Angeles Times:-
 * Sikh Separatists Masquerade as Police to Stage India's Biggest Bank Robbery
 * [Home Edition]
 * Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext) - Los Angeles, Calif.
 * Date: Feb 13, 1987
 * Start Page: 5
 * Section: 1; Foreign Desk
 * Text Word Count: 271
 * Document Text
 * Sikh separatists dressed as police officers looted a bank Thursday and escaped with $4.5 million, the biggest bank heist in Indian history, officials said.
 * "It was a neat and clean operation," a police spokesman said. No casualties were reported.
 * More than 10,000 security troops were deployed across Punjab state in a hunt for the suspects.
 * Bank robberies have been a major means of financing the Sikh militants' violent campaign for a separate state they call Khalistan. Bank robberies occur almost every week in Punjab.
 * Police said that 12 to 15 Sikhs-most wearing police uniforms-walked into a branch of the Punjab National Bank in Ludhiana, about 60 miles northwest of Chandigarh, shortly after it opened.
 * Guards Duped
 * Mistaking them for real officers, bank employees shook hands with the robbers. Two security guards complied with requests to hand over their weapons for inspection.
 * The extremists, armed with rifles and submachine guns, then took keys to the safe from the manager and a cashier and locked the bank employees in a room, the spokesman said.
 * The Sikhs fled in a van after filling sacks with 58 million rupees-$4.5 million. Part of the money belonged to the Reserve Bank of India, the country's central bank, which does not have a branch in the city.
 * Police said the robbers shouted slogans supporting Khalistan. Bank employees told the Press Trust of India news agency that the robbers said they would use the loot to buy arms.
 * Raid on Courtroom
 * In another incident in Ludhiana, police said several Sikh extremists armed with submachine guns burst into a courtroom and freed a Sikh arrested last month on terrorism charges.


 * I believe that it completely justifies the lead section text. We can gather some more information from this article to make it more valuable. If you insist, I can pay from my pocket to buy the 2nd article as well, which is even more clear:
 * It's currenly available text is as following (ofcouse, if we buy it then there will be several other details as well):


 * Chicago Sun Times
 * Article: Sikhs rob India bank of $4.5 million


 * NEW DELHI Sikh militants dressed as policemen and armed with submachine guns and rifles escaped with nearly $4.5 million yesterday in the biggest bank robbery in Indian history.
 * "It was a neat and clean operation," a police spokesman said of the robbery by 12 to 15 Sikhs at a branch of the Punjab National Bank in Ludhiana shortly after it opened. No one was injured.
 * The robbery was the latest by Sikh extremists, who have raided banks to finance a bloody four-year campaign to make Punjab state - the only part of India where Sikhs are a ... 


 * I believe that the text ("to finance violent campaign for a separate Sikh state of Khalistan") should stay. We can drop word 'violant' if other editors agree. But, Sinneed, you can also put your proposed text here (for discussion) if you think otherwise. I remember you had entered something like "to achieve Khalistan (a Sikh homeland)". I am open to discuss it as well. I am willing to work with you. Regards --98.207.210.210 (talk) 03:54, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree, and I think it will need to be a quote, attributed to the robber.- sinneed (talk) 04:24, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps "The robbers shouted pro-Khalistan slogans and told bank staff they would buy weapons with the money." - This would avoid having to comply with wp:quote, without making any value judgement about why the robbers acted. We simply report their words.- sinneed (talk) 04:32, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I can see why this belongs in the Sikh extremism article, but where is this tied to Labh Singh? Since he is dead, we don't have a wp:BLP problem to be solved instantly, but I don't know if the man's family would object to his being styled a bank robber.  Am I missing a mention of him in these sources?- sinneed (talk) 06:11, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I found a weak one, but the magazine didn't like him. India Today - "...ideology was a vague demand for "Khalistan", but whose main focus was the money to be had..."

- sinneed (talk) 04:43, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I can't recommend this for the lead. This will be need to be presented with wp:BALANCE if it needs to be here... SATP, India Today, others, say that the problem was that a lot of people who supported themselves as bank robbers claimed to be, and were supported as, pro-Khalistan.  Probably not the thing for the lead.- sinneed (talk) 04:45, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe that this sentence should stay. It is duly referenced and its wording is not POV either. --135.214.154.104 (talk) 09:33, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Believe all you want. It is *VERY* point of view: it is a quote of the bank robbers.
 * Please imagine if the magazine version were to replace it: "Labh Singh had his KCF gang rob the bank to enrich himself while pursuing a vague ideology of 'Khalistan.'" - If it were written that way in the header, would that be PoV?  If so, the current version certainly is as well... and I think clearly both are.- sinneed (talk) 17:51, 30 June 2009 (UTC) Reworded.- sinneed (talk) 18:33, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Did Labh Singh take part at all?
- sinneed (talk) 04:43, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I can see why this belongs in the Sikh extremism article, but where is this tied to Labh Singh? Since he is dead, we don't have a wp:BLP problem to be solved instantly, but I don't know if the man's family would object to his being styled a bank robber.  Am I missing a mention of him in these sources?- sinneed (talk) 06:11, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I found a weak one, but the magazine didn't like him. India Today - "...ideology was a vague demand for "Khalistan", but whose main focus was the money to be had..."

I have changed the wording to "rumored" and added a fact flag.

We have a source in the article that says the KCF was responsible, but that would belong in the Khalistan Commando Force article or the Sikh extremism (another says Sikh extremists did it).- sinneed (talk) 18:33, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Regarding ‘biggest/largest bank robbery/heist of Indian history’ – ‘because of it being so-notable, sometimes it is also mentioned as “Ludhiana robbery” in documents/books. Approximately Indian Rupees 5.77 Crore were looted during this incident, some books/newspapers simply mentioned it, some mention it as Rs 5.5 Crore, some mention it asRs 5.7 crores, some mention it as 5 Crore 70 Lakh, some mention it Rs 5.8 Crore, some mentioned at nearly Rs 6 crore and some mentioned it as “6 Crore” (after removing the fraction part and mentioning it in the nearest even number).--209.183.55.45 (talk) 06:08, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It says that "Labh Singh masterminded a bank robbery of Rs. 6 crore from a branch of Punjab National Bank in Ludhiana. This is reputed to be the largest ever bank robbery" . You can also see this text in google search over here.
 * On his death, Police statement stated that “… himself a former police constable, was responsible for a string of murders and a major bank robbery”--209.183.55.45 (talk) 06:08, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Some of that was good work. Some was less so.- sinneed (talk) 14:59, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I appreciate User Talk:209.183.55.45's hard work in finding these valuable sources. It is an excellent work. Great. I sincerely hope that other editors will take a lead from 209.183.55.45's efforts and 'will try to make this article more valuable after finding and thoroughly reading the sources --144.160.130.16 (talk) 22:09, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Quote added to the Death section
I added the full quote from the police about the subject. It was removed without comment. I have restored it. Any objections?- sinneed (talk) 16:07, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Added another copyvio flag.
Flag added here. I won't leave this in long.- sinneed (talk) 19:58, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

This article was cited to...this article. Please don't do this again.
This source was used to cover the bit about the Lab Singh reorganization. However, the reference was wp:CIRCULAR... the reference is to a copyrighted printed copy of selected articles from Wikipedia. This had been corrected before. Its restoration was wp:vandalism. Please do not restore it again. It is a betrayal of trust.- sinneed (talk) 02:03, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Before the mass rollback
I had removed the double-periods. I had moved the sources outside the punctuation per wp:MOS.

I would ask that the editor that removed those fixes please make them again.

I would also like the repeatedly-reverting editor, to explain why my making these changes WAS vandalism... since vandalism is the reason to perform a rollback.

- sinneed (talk) 04:00, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Oddly, despite the statements by the reverting editor, who I see posting, no explanation has been given for the reversion of the many double-period and references-inside-punctuation edits. Please explain how these were vandalism.  Since, clearly, they were not, please repair the vadalism done in reverting them.- sinneed (talk) 16:13, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The mass-rollback editors are posting. If they objected, I am sure they would have spoke up.  I have again corrected all these errors.- sinneed (talk) 16:40, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Accusing People Of Vandalism Does No One Any Favour
Dear Editors can I suggest you work with Sineed rather than against Sineed. Sineed has been helpful in adding WP:NPOV to many Sikh related articles. Read what he is trying to say and incorporate it, rather than rollback. Thanks--Sikh-history (talk) 07:46, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I fear I am the one snarling about vandalism. I am still finding debris from the rollback vandal (vandals?). I should have taken it to ANI and the copyvio board. Mistake.  Today, I found that the correcting of the grammar and spelling in the lead (re-structuring is not a word) was flagged as vandalism and removed.  So very much work just thrown away.  Ah well, they say it was only 42 edits, how long can it take to type them back in?  Easier to do the 3rd time anyway.  I am also looking at the article much much more closely.- sinneed (talk) 05:00, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

He, along with x, y, z... was...
This is colloquial usage. In standard English, this should be "He, x, y, and z... were..." I had, again, fixed this before, but since it was vandalism, it was mass-reverted repeatedly. Since I have reason to believe that that no one actually objects to this change, I will make it again.- sinneed (talk) 16:39, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Done.- sinneed (talk) 21:01, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

I am about to go through the article fact-checking - MANY edits as there are 32 souces
At the same time, I will convert the naked refs with ELs into cite format. This is a *STUNNING* amount of work, and I request if not help, at least minimal courtesy.

I do not plan to delete substantial content, unless I find something that breaks wp:BLP, which seems unlikely... most everyone mentioned by name has died in the violence, or over the intervening 25 years or more. I plan to flag errors as I find them. I will put simple quotations around short copyright violations. They will need to be brought into compliance with wp:quote and I am not volunteering. I did not add these, and the wp:burden is on the adding editor. After I have chewed through this painful work, I hope to come back through at some later date and kill any quote that doesn't seem to meet wp:quote.

If anyone objects to an edit, pleasewp:be bold and just make a correcting edit, or please tell me here and let me fix it. Please do not wp:edit war... make edits in detail rather than rolling back, as none of these edits will be wp:vandalism, and rollbacks are only allowed for vandalism.

I plan to start at the bottom and work up.

Thank you in advance.- sinneed (talk) 02:54, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * No Problem, but please keep adding wiki tags instead of deleting the information. I will check the tags in one week time period. --98.207.210.210 (talk) 09:37, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I am sure you do like this, as I am doing your work for you. The wp:burden is on the editor adding the content, not the one correcting that editor's work.  I must tell you that your approach causes me to regret my courtesy in simply flagging these.  You actually placed a warning on my talk page, stating that there were no copyvios... while there was an open discussion item that you had not, and STILL have not, ever commented on.  Very rude of you.- sinneed (talk) 14:43, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "...in one week..." - By then they will be gone, I should think. You may of course restore the content when you get to it.  There is no great rush. - sinneed (talk) 14:27, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Copyvios I have flagged by making simple quotes
Interested editors who want that content to remain in Wikipedia may wish to review each and bring it into compliance with wp:quote.- sinneed (talk) 02:54, 28 June 2009 (UTC) ... or of course almost always better: place it in their own words.- sinneed (talk) 04:34, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * How? Can you give me some example please?--98.207.210.210 (talk) 09:38, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * How what? Compliance with wp:quote?  Reading it carefully is a great start. - sinneed (talk) 14:25, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

POV flag added today.
A very great deal of this is one-sided. It will either need to be neutral, or wp:BALANCEd.

The bank robbery thing is a perfect example. I am happy the robbery was bloodless. But it was still an armed robbery. Its purpose cannot be devined. We can give a couple of different interpretations from the wp:RS. Previously, I trusted that the sources showed a single interpretation... but they do not.- sinneed (talk) 05:07, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Moved to EL, copied here as well.
Cutting to talk and EL http://ir.lib.sfu.ca/retrieve/726/etd1604.pdf mentions that Pakistan offered a home to "terrorist leader" Labh Singh and the death of "militant" Manbir Singh Chaheru. Does not back up any statements currently in the lead. Useful source.

Cite web format:

- sinneed (talk) 21:19, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

As the IP seeming most likely to object is blocked for 2 weeks
I will probably hold off on major work, as a courtesy. - sinneed (talk) 06:00, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Your wording is so nice. Wikipedia definitely need neutral editors like you. Please keep it up, and please add it into your normal editing. Sinneed, I salute your NPOV edits.
 * I couldn't check your edits on KPS Gill, I hope you understand, it's a long weekend... 'will get back to you sometime next week. Enjoy your long week-end. --99.51.223.161 (talk) 06:53, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, it appears the editor is not, in fact, gone. I will proceed.- sinneed (talk) 16:33, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * What?, first check geolocations (click geolocate at the bottom of the respective talk pages) of the editors and then say something like this. It is a personal attack. STOP.--99.51.223.161 (talk) 19:00, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Information about real people.
Because of the problems this article has with anon editors adding content and citing sources that do not cover it, it is essential that any content that cannot be SEEN in the wp:RS be both cited to an RS and a quote provided from it, covering the content. I dislike protecting articles, but I think this one may need it.- sinneed (talk) 14:22, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The way you vandalized this article, I do not think that you actually care for this article.--144.160.130.16 (talk) 20:27, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I encourage you to redact that. It is a wp:personal attack.  Please focus on the content, not the editors, especially here.  See wp:talk.- sinneed (talk) 20:33, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Bibla and the publisher's murder
Hmm. It does say "his name figured in the" case, but not that he was accused. Is that enough? - I won't delete it again, but I think it is very iffy. Is this person still living? If so, wp:BLP would apply and this would not fly.- sinneed (talk) 14:52, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * STOP! I am putting your edit summary over here
 * "Gursewak Singh Babla, - source is about that person but doesn't tie to the murder of the publisher"
 * Please explain that why did you LIE in your edit summary, No re-phrasing of the words, sentences, explain your edit summary and your LIE? --98.207.210.210 (talk) 09:05, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * As always, please remove your focus from me, and place it on the content. Please stop the personal attacks.- sinneed (talk) 14:15, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

"associate of" - vs. "came near" and "under the influence of"
These are not the same.

Similarly, the article has been repeatedly changed to say that he "was wanted for" or similar words the Ludhaina robbery. Yet the source does not say that. It lists what he was wanted for. There is a separate mention that he was involved in a bank robbery. wp:OR... it just isn't there.- sinneed (talk) 20:11, 27 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Further, it is interesting that you bring these particular points up... as they are excellent examples of the problem. The articles are related to the subject... they sometimes say what is claimed for them... but sometimes not.  This makes trust very difficult.- sinneed (talk) 20:16, 27 July 2009 (UTC)


 * this reference clearly says that in in "early 80s, he came under the influence of Bhindranwale and resigned from the police force", reference 2 clearly says that ..."Labh Singh, a close confederate of (Sant) Bhindranwale's", and in the same page Labh Singh says "I can't show my back to Sant Ji, I will fight with him and face martyrdom in this place". here you have simply changed the section "Association with Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale" to "Joining Sikh militants to further your POV.--144.160.130.16 (talk) 20:20, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The "close confederate" Fighting-for-faith-and-nation source looks excellent, and easy to add. I already have the book cited in the article (my citing it was part of my earlier "vandalism") and will simply need to be pointed to by author, year, and page.  This will satisfy the CN flag, easily, IMO.- sinneed (talk) 20:28, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The "under the influence" source doesn't help as far as I can see, though it might well be good to add... It doesn't indicate (as the new one did) that he was an associate, but instead that he was influenced by Bhindranwale. Many, many, were, clearly.- sinneed (talk) 20:37, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No need to add this reference again. It was already there at the end of the sentence in the lead section. You simply could not read it. --144.160.130.16 (talk) 21:00, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, yes, there is. When the article unlocks I will add it, with the quote.- sinneed (talk) 21:08, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, it was there. I restored it... and read it.  However, I was looking for the fighting portion, not the Bhindranwale portion.- sinneed (talk) 21:12, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Then why you had to do this vandalism this time, why you could not read multiple references, why you had to LIE repeatedly in your edit summaries, kindly explain ?--98.207.210.210 (talk) 08:59, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Please wp:AGF. I have been right sometimes, and wrong others.  Thank you for correcting the flagged edit about the "wanted for robbing a bank".- sinneed (talk) 14:05, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

POV
and Refimprove

POV - because this has had way too much hero worship, wp:OR, and content cited to sources that don't cover it. Refimprove - because it has too much unreferenced content. - sinneed (talk) 03:10, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * There is no wp:pov in the article. It appears that since its neutral version doesnt satisfy your own wp:pov thats why you are upset. But it doesnt satisfy the creterion to add the POV tag. Proofs:
 * While destructing this article, you LIED reapeatedly to push your own POV agenda. You deleted 'the contents and references', because .. either you decided to not to read them or either you wanted to destroy the hard work of other wikipedia editors because their work/research did not suit your own POV agenda.... Since you are aware of your vandalism, so I hope that you won't ask me to give you the proofs of your vandalsim. The way you tried to destroy this article prove your own POV pushing.
 * References were already there but it appears that you decided to not to read them AND you repeatedly deleted the contents untill this article was protected by respected wikipedia administrators. It also prove your POV pushing and vandalism.
 * STOP! Destroying wikipedia articles. Learn to respect other editors hard work/research in making wikipedia articles valuable.--98.207.210.210 (talk) 08:48, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ignoring the personal attacks above... as I am an editor... and as at least one editor (the one removing the one removing the POV flag) argues that I am editing with a POV... there is clearly a consensus of 2 that the flag is needed. Please don't remove it again.  Please also focus on the content, not on the editors.- sinneed (talk) 13:58, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks to me like the two of you may be talking past each other. For example, 98.207 asked here why you claimed Singh wasn't mentioned in connection with a bank robbery, when the source cited clearly does state that... but in the edit summary I think is being referred to, you mentioned something different, specifically questioning one fact that I didn't see mentioned in the article. Why we're so quick to label simple disagreements as lies and misleading conspiracy, I'm not sure. It would be better if one could just calmly explain why someone else is mistaken, rather than resorting to a lot of fire with no light. – Luna Santin  (talk) 20:08, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed, Luna. Thus, I have asked for quotes when an editor states the content is in the source, and I don't see it, per wp:V:  "When there is dispute about whether the article text is fully supported by the given source, direct quotes from the source and any other details requested should be provided as a courtesy to substantiate the reference."  When provided, these have always proven enlightening.- sinneed (talk) 20:39, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Luna, I fear I don't understand your 2 difs. :( In the version I flagged, the WP article said he was wanted for the Ludhaina bank job, but the cited source did not.  In response to that flag (I think it was the 5th time I had flagged it, over quite a while), the statement was changed to match the source.- sinneed (talk) 08:52, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Correction... to ALMOST match the cited source. But we have it elsewhere, now.  I'll eventually cite it to a source that actually says that, now that one has been added.- sinneed (talk) 09:00, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No! Sinneed, in edit 1, you, i.e. User:Sinneed deleted two very important references and the related text without any discussion. in first reference, third paragraph clearly says "Police said Sukhdev Singh, himself a former police constable, was responsible for a string of murders and a Major Bank Robbery and 2nd reference clearly saysLabh Singh masterminded a bank robbery of Rs. 6 crore from a branch of Punjab National Bank in Ludhiana. This is reputed to be the largest ever bank robber . And you lied in your edit summary "Source is already a named source in the article, and it doesn't mention the bank robbery. Warning...if I can figure out which of the IP herd made that change easily". By doing so, you tried to mislead respected Wikipedia community while destroying an important Wikipedia article.. It was definitely vandalism and wp:pov violation. --98.207.210.210 (talk) 09:15, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Focus on the content, not editors. wp:AGF.  wp:talk - please focus on improving the article... are you proposing an article change? -The named source NSTDEATH is the "id=ULkTAAA..." source, which refers to a major bank robbery.  It does not support the text "wanted in relation to ... a major Bank heist in Ludhiana". -The 2nd source I had asked repeatedly for a quote...that request was finally satisfied (see discussion above), after I had asked for account blocks and article locks on this and possibly-related other matters. -I had previously found another source that claimed (see discussion above) that he was responsible for the Ludhaina bank robbery, but the source CLEARLY **HATED** him, and I did not want to introduce it into the article as a wp:RS...it stated that he had pretended to be a separatist, but was really just a crime lord making himself rich.  I *THINK* I understand that it was one of the press organs of 2 of his alleged assassination victims.- sinneed (talk) 16:45, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Clarification flagged
"He belonged to the same village of Panjwar, tehsil Patti in district Amritsar,"

This truly is not of clear meaning in standard English.- sinneed (talk) 03:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * You are again lying. Do you need baby sitting and/or wikipedia editor's assistance to read the references ? OR you DO NOT want to read them.... Remember! It is not a personal attack, it is my effort to save wikipedia articles from your POV pushing and vandalism.--98.207.210.210 (talk) 08:56, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ignoring the personal attack above, please do not remove a "clarify" tag because the sentence is sourced. It is not a request for a citation.
 * In this case, it is a request for clarification of a statement not having any clear meaning in English. What "same village"? "same" has no referent.  "village of Panjwar, tehsil Patti" - at least part of that is not in English, and appears to be a place name.
 * Some editor who understands the flag and sees the concern will address it eventually. There is no rush.  As always, please remove your focus from me, and place it on the content.- sinneed (talk) 14:04, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The flag has again been removed. It remains unclear:  "He belonged to the village of Panjwar, tehsil Patti in district Amritsar,"... guessing that "tehsil Patti" is a place-name.- sinneed (talk) 07:53, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Wikilink to "Tehsils" in Adminstrative division of India. Better?- sinneed (talk) 08:41, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

EL citation - "PHILIPPINES Accord seems near on military bases MANILA"
This links to a Miami Herald article "PHILIPPINES Accord seems near on military bases MANILA". This seems likely incorrect. The link is live. It was one of several sources cited to cover the death of Labh Singh.- Sinneed  21:48, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * So, a:
 * rather than an EL. Thank you.  While we have several sources for his death, I will add this new one.
 * rather than an EL. Thank you.  While we have several sources for his death, I will add this new one.

Cutting COPYVIO below, since that is a for-fee service, eh? Please see wp:copyright, wp:quote, wp:CITE, wp:talk page guidelines, focus on the content rather than the editors.- Sinneed  20:06, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Interesting. It appears that whoever added this reference, he/she had an honest/positive desire to improve this article. Otherwise why someone would search/read Philippines related news to improve India/Khalistan related articles. I've just pulled the whole article. Here's what it says:

The Miami Herald

Miami Herald, The (FL)

July 13, 1988 Author: From Herald Wire Services Edition: FINAL Section: FRONT Page: 2A

Hoshiarpur district.
 * INDIA -- Security forces killed one of India's most wanted Sikh militants Tuesday and said his death was a major blow to the biggest group fighting for an independent Sikh homeland in Punjab state. They said Sukhdev Singh, a self-styled "lieutenant general" of the Khalistan Commando Force, was shot dead when he tried to evade a police patrol in the state's

Memo: IN THE WORLD Copyright (c) 1988 The Miami Herald --209.183.55.114 (talk) 19:25, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Since we always wp:assume good faith, everyone already knew the editor who added the EL was doing so to improve the article.- Sinneed  20:08, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Factual accuracy tag
Over many months, I have found several sources that simply did not say what was claimed for them. The editor responsible for many had previously declared that there was no problem any more. This turned out not to be the case, so I restored the flag. I am working through the sources, correcting content, quoting, and correcting/completing sources. When I am done, I will propose removing the flags here. I will listen respectfully to other opinions, and follow wp:consensus, should one emerge.- Sinneed  21:23, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Succ box location - wp:Layout
wp:Layout - just above cats.- Sinneed  00:07, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Dropped some long-flagged bits.
The only thing I see as truly problematic is the bit about naming the brother. That needs a clear source that meets wp:RS, and especially meets wp:V - see wp:BLP. This is a listed exception to wp:3RR, and it won't stay without sourcing.- Sinneed  05:42, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110713025322/http://www.indiarightsonline.com/Sabrang/armed1.nsf/38b852a8345861dd65256a980059289d/308bbafc7afcad6fe5256be600458270/$FILE/bac37002.pdf to http://www.indiarightsonline.com/Sabrang/armed1.nsf/38b852a8345861dd65256a980059289d/308bbafc7afcad6fe5256be600458270/$FILE/bac37002.pdf

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Source: Sher Dil - Shaheed Bhai Surinder Singh Sodhi
I believe Sher Dil - Shaheed Bhai Surinder Singh Sodhi is a reliable source and should be used in this article. I had made changes using this source, but they wete reverted because the source was “unreliable”. I want to restore these changes. Here are some reasons for its reliability


 * 1) It is a secondary source.
 * 2) Author, Maninder Singh Baja, uses newspapers and eyewitnesses accounts. Essentially using reliable sources.
 * 3) It is reliable in its context. It has a bias but in the context I had used it it was reliable.
 * 4) The publisher, Gurmat Pustak Bhandar, is reliable. The publisher has many reliable books and books by the publisher are used frequently for many other reliable sources.
 * 5) It is an independent source.
 * 6) The source is available online. and is available to be verified.

CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 18:15, 14 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Note that your original edits mentioned neither the author nor the publisher, the crucial components for deciding reliability.
 * Thanks for mentioning that the author is biased. He seems to write mainly the biographies of Khalisani anti-state militants.
 * The publisher is however non-entity. It has not been used on Wikipedia anywhere. The policy states: Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. So I don't see how this source can be accepted. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:43, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
 * This publisher, may not be used on wikipedia, but sources using this publisher are. Such as Gamer of Love, Punjab: journey through fault lines, Religion, Identity, and Nationhood
 * The Sikh Militant Movement etc. CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 22:44, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Kautilya3 A main reason why the publisher may not be used is because all of its books are in Punjabi or other non-english languages. CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 22:47, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Can you provide links for those books please? (We don't automatically disallow publishers of non-English books, but neither do we automatically accept them.) -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:43, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
 * For which books? The ones using this publisher as a source? CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 16:43, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, please provide links to which ever books establish the publisher as having "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:21, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Game of Love
 * Punjab: Journeys Through Fault Lines
 * Religion, Identity, and Nationhood The Sikh Militant Movement
 * A Bibliography of the Punjab
 * Just to name a few CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 00:15, 16 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Not a single one of them is published by this publisher. The last book, for example, is published by the Punjab University Patiala.
 * Look, we can't keep on going like this! At some point, we have to call WP:CIR and ask the admins to take action. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:49, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh. I apologise. I misunderstood what you said. I provided books that use the publisher as a source. CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 13:52, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Let’s call them up. CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 13:53, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

The second source (Punjab: Journeys through fault lines) and the last source (Bibliography) are reliable sources. The second source cites Kapur Singh's memoirs, which is an important primary source, the last one is probably listing something similar from pre-partition days. Both of them made very limited use of this publisher. I am happy to regard it as a reliable publisher of WP:PRIMARY sources and treat these books as PRIMARY sources.

I will reinstate your second set of edits, citing Bhlar, but not the first. If you want the first, please take it to WP:RSN. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:31, 16 April 2023 (UTC)


 * , I have reverted your self-revert because these fictionalized-biographies of Sikh "martyrs" published by Gurmat Pustak Bhandar are not close to reliable or usable anywhere on wikipedia. As should be clear from perusing the language on any page of the texts, or even looking at the book titles or the cover-art they are akin to the "Lives of Saints" books/pamphlets churned out by various local Christian presses rather than scholarly, or even disinterested, biographies. No reviews. No citation by reliable sources. And hardly any library holdings. And the authors have no credentials or reputation for fact-checking; the author of "Sher Dil - Shaheed Bhai Surinder Singh Sodhi" (Lion Heart - Martyr Brother Surinder Singh Sodhi") says in the preface that he has been educated only till the 5th grade.
 * I believe that you based your determinitaion of (borderline) reliability on the publication of Kapur Singh's memoir by Gurmat Pustak Bhandar. Note though that Gurmat is (afaict) not the original publsher of that work, which has been re-published by various local outfits. And that memoir, which is indeed a notable work that can be used as a source with proper attribution, is distinct from the martyr bios being discussed here.
 * Lastly. given the controversial nature of subjects like Labh Singh who live at the border of martyr/terrorist depending upon the ideology of the reporting media, we should be looking to write their wiki-bios based on WP:HISTRS-type sources. Trying to write these wikipedia articles by trying to aggregate material from junk-sources on either sides will just result in GIGO. Abecedare (talk) 16:11, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Great, fine by me. I couldn't the read text of these books myself. Glad to see you were able to and made a call. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:16, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * To give an idea of the type of works these are, here is a short (machine-assisted) translation of an extract from the preface of the Sodhi bio, [Sodhi] performed such brave and heroic feats that a common man cannot even imagine... Inside the steely body of Sodhi Sirdar, there was a heart like Babbar lion.... The hearts of Sikhs' enemies were filled with fear of his bravery and it goes on in this vein. The language in the Amar Shaheed General Labh Singh ("Immortal Martyr General Labh Singh") is even more overblown with made-up dialog like "Baba, shedding tears on the death of a martyr is tantamount to insulting the martyr. When the martyr has died laughingly, you should not be crying. Many more Labh Singh's will be born. Do not mourn!" You get the idea of the genre. Abecedare (talk) 16:42, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Class
After reading through the article it seems to me an A class article. It is currently a B. @Kautilya3 thoughts? CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 07:46, 21 June 2023 (UTC)