Talk:Laphonza Butler/Archive 1

Archive 1

Race

Changed "woman of color" to "black woman." Woman of color could mean black, Hispanic, Asian, etc. Black woman means black woman. Safiel (talk) 03:06, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Infobox update

I think the infobox should be updated to show that she is the Senator-designate. Credible sources including POLITICO and the Wall Street Journal have reported her appointment. Jgtrevor (talk) 03:23, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. I think it was initially a scoop by Politico but the Los Angeles Times is reporting that the governor's office has confirmed it. Johndavies837 (talk) 04:07, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Unsourced birthdates

Editors keep adding a specific birthdate to this page without citing a reliable source. Please stop doing this. After Butler gets sworn in as senator there might be more specific information published, but until then we need to approximate. Funcrunch (talk) 17:29, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Edits to Early life and education

Following her father's death at age 16, Butler's mother became the sole provider, working as a security guard, bookkeeper and nursing assistant.(Washington Post)

She graduated with a political science degree from Jackson State University. Politicsgirl1975 (talk) 21:23, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Please someone define SCRB, post, and provide a link if available.

Please someone define SCRB, post, and provide a link if available. Eameece (talk) 21:35, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi, I added a brief definition for SCRB Strategies. The firm does not have its own Wikipedia page to link to, and has since rebranded as Bearstar (see here) but I do not think that is necessarily relevant to Butler's page as she left the firm the year before. Eventhisacronym (talk) 21:57, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Criticism / controversy

Butler appointment is being criticized for

• being union leader, then helping Uber fight to keep drivers as gig workers instead of employees

• living in / being registered to vote in Silver Spring, Maryland, i.e. "carpetbagger" accusation. Word is she has California property, is changing voter registration back to CA before being sworn in (probably Wed.).

Doug Grinbergs (talk) 04:54, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

She has lived long enough in California that it is unlikely that Californians will turn against her on that basis alone, as people come and go from California all the time. Those who largely share her views will be pleased and those who largely oppose her because of her views will be indignant. What matters is whether or not reliable sources devote significant attention to these criticisms. Links, please. Cullen328 (talk) 07:38, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Here's a legal blogger analyzing the question, and coming to the conclusion that she may not be legally eligible for the seat: https://reason.com/volokh/2023/10/02/is-sen-to-be-butler-eligible-to-represent-california/

But it's worth noting that the Senate is its own judge in this matter, and Senate eligibility is explicitly not something that can be sent to the courts. So in practice, it's a political question more than it is a legal question. I'm not entirely opposed to adding some mention of it to the article, but unless a significant number of Senators make a fuss about it, I probably wouldn't bother. Alsadius (talk) 17:38, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Article1 section3

No Person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen. ElusiveKai (talk) 18:24, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

I imagine once she changes her voter registration to the California property, she'll use that as her primary residence during her tenure and she'll continue to use the Maryland property when she's in DC, but that's just speculation. Unknown0124 (talk) 20:43, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Steven Crowder has also made a more puerile criticism of Butler, specifically he thinks her given name is silly. 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:77FB (talk) 03:19, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

"So in practice, it's a political question more than it is a legal question."

It is actually a legal question. Just that the body in charge of checking that legal requirement will most likely not bother to reject an illegal appointment.

Unfortunately, that's nothing new. There were several Senators elected to the chamber despite not yet having reached the minimum age, including a certain Senator from Delaware. Str1977 ^(talk) 10:24, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Which didn't matter because he was 30 when he was sworn in, just as these won't matter unless she continues to have these eligibility problems once she's sworn in. Therequiembellishere (talk) 12:23, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

How many homes?

This article currently cites USA Today in saying Butler owns homes in View Park *and* LA.

Can I suggest that we edit that to a home in View Park, in LA (the county and area)?

I think it seems most likely that the USA Today cite is just confused/wrong. It’s hard to prove a negative, but:

Washington Examiner cites real estate records for View Park, doesn’t mention any other property in CA.

ABC News and MD Daily Record, among several others, mention “a house” or “a home” in CA.

Can anyone find clear evidence other than the single USA Today article that Butler owns multiple properties in LA? If not, I suggest it would be more conservative to say she owns one home rather than risk amplifying potentially incorrect information. 108.7.79.71 (talk) 12:32, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Regarding the house(s) in California and Maryland, although she is now using her home in California as her domicile since she's now a senator, I expect her to continue to use the Maryland home she used when she was the president of EMILY's List while she's in Washington. I don't have any comment about any additional California homes she has. Unknown0124 (talk) 02:05, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Vision to Learn

"Butler is a director of Vision to Learn, a nonprofit founded by Austin Beutner that provides reading glasses to children in underserved communities. [1]" Moved this sentence from the article. BLPs should rely on third party and independent sources. I haven't seen this role covered by the press. TJMSmith (talk) 19:46, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

I disagree with the reasoning of @TJMSmith. Wikipedia can absolutely use WP:PRIMARY sources such as a nonprofit's official website to identify the article subject as a board member. But do we want to include her board membership of a non-notable organization per WP:PRESERVE or is this trivia? As we now have a page on Vision to Learn, I think we should WP:PRESERVE the mention of her board membership. BBQboffin (talk) 20:22, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Just noting for the record that you literally just created the page that you are now using as an argument for its inclusion. Funcrunch (talk) 21:47, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree that primary sources can be used and do not feel strongly about the inclusion of this sentence one way or another. I guess I figured this article isn't supposed to cover all minutiae about Butler's life. I thought this Vision to Learn detail may not rise to the level of needing to be included in the Wikipedia article if not a single third party source covered it. TJMSmith (talk) 22:36, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

If there are no objections to restoring the text, I will do so tomorrow. Ned Colletti, Mickey Kantor, and Jake Winebaum are also on the board and it's mentioned in their bios. And yes, I created the Vision to Learn article today, and given the WP:SIGCOV it's about time someone did! Isn't that why we're here? Cheers! BBQboffin (talk) 01:38, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Fix grammar in sentences about Butler's education.

Change "Butler was graduated as a salutatorian from South Pike High School in 1997,[2][3][4] She earned a bachelor's degree in political science from Jackson State University in 2001.[2][5]"

to

"Butler graduated salutatorian from South Pike High School in 1997.[2][3][4] She earned a bachelor's degree in political science from Jackson State University in 2001.[2][5]" Seichert (talk) 16:54, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

If she were the only salutatorian, that would be a good change, but she is one of 4 so honored (per source) so we'd want to avoid peacocking. BBQboffin (talk) 19:01, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: no consensus for this change Elli (talk | contribs) 17:27, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 October 2023

Her residency in California is not clear in this article. The SFGATE article says that Newsom's office says that Butler owns a home in CA along with the office saying Butler is expected to reregister to vote in CA.

I suggest this article be edited to include that Newsom's office said she owns a home in California. 2601:642:4100:38E0:811E:E923:2909:1895 (talk) 19:15, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

 Already done Hyphenation Expert (talk) 22:06, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Seeking feedback re: endorsement guideline

This comment serves as notice of a discussion that editors of this article may be interested in: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Elections and Referendums#Interpretation of endorsement guideline re: EMILY's List/Laphonza Butler? 67.170.42.135 (talk) 01:15, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Update Photo?

Senator Butler now has an Official Photo on her Senate website. Should her page be updated accordingly?[2]https://butler.senate.gov Steve83414 (talk) 17:04, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

It was pointed out in an earlier edit that the photo currently on the Senate website is not an official government photo, it's one from her previous position of employment. I assume an official public domain photo will come eventually... Funcrunch (talk) 18:43, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Term as Senator

According to https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/resources/pdf/chronlist.pdf her term started with her appointment on October 1 even if she took the oath of office on October 3. MasterPike01 (talk) 18:44, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

But this site (also senate.gov) [3] has it as "TERM BEGAN" October 3. BBQboffin (talk) 01:29, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

That's probably a mistake since according to the same page https://www.senate.gov/states/CA/senators.htm Alejandro Padilla's term started on January 18, 2021 the day he was appointed and not the day he was sworn into office on January 20, 2021, also in the last paragraph of page 2 of this pdf https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R44781 it's says "most states have authorized their governors to fill Senate vacancies by temporary appointments" therefore the office shouldn't be vacant after the apointment. MasterPike01 (talk) 03:45, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

But isn't the swearing-in a constitutional requirement? For other officials, including members of Congress, that document specifies only that they "shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation to support this constitution." In 1789 the First Congress adopted a simple oath: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support the Constitution of the United States." [4] The term can't begin until the appointee has met all the qualifications, can it? What if she were 29 years on October 1, 2023 and turned 30 on October 3? Her term couldn't begin until October 3 because there's an age requirement that needs to be met, right? BBQboffin (talk) 19:56, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

According to https://www.senate.gov/about/origins-foundations/electing-appointing-senators.htm the Constitution provides that the Senate "shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members." and the oath is not mentioned as a Qualification in https://www.senate.gov/about/origins-foundations/senate-and-constitution.htm for example Roland Burris was appointed on December 31, 2008, qualified and therefore became a senator on January 12, 2009 and was sworn in on January 15, 2009 [5]https://bioguide.congress.gov/search/bio/B001266. MasterPike01 (talk) 21:50, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I see that for Burris his term of service began before the oath: but credentials were not in order until January 12, 2009; took the oath of office on January 15, 2009, and served from January 12, 2009, to November 29, 2010. I think @MasterPike01 is right about October 1 being the right day, not October 3. I added a note in the infobox next to the "October 1" date so that future editors will be directed here rather than just revert. Thanks for your work on this. Cheers! BBQboffin (talk) 00:00, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

First Black LGBT person

I have a source telling that she is the first LGBT person, which is a much more large definition than a first lesbian. We never had a Black gay or trans or bi Senator. But user Funcrunch keeps reverting my source based info. M.Karelin (talk) 21:41, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• User Funcrunch, can you name one Black Senator, who was LGBT before her ?? M.Karelin (talk) 21:45, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Just as we call her a "Black woman" rather than a "woman of color", in Wikivoice I think we should aim for precision, so "lesbian" is more precise than "LGBT person". I do see both used in sources: The woman chosen by Gov. Gavin Newsom to replace late Sen. Dianne Feinstein will be the first Black lesbian to serve in Congress in history and the first openly LGBT senator from California, his office said Sunday night. and NYT makes it "LGBTQ senator". Since this is a BLP, we should also ask what she calls herself: a lesbian or an LGBT person. BBQboffin (talk) 01:06, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

The phrase "LGBT person" always struck me as an error unless you really do intend to describe a person who belongs to all four categories at once (i.e., a "lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender person"). I guess one could try to read the acronym disjunctively in this context, but that clashes with the usual conjunctive reading (as evidenced by the first sentence of our own article on LGBT). Einsof (talk) 01:36, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed; "LGBT person" is seriously awkward. "Member of the LGBT community", while longer, might be better phrasing. ETA: Indeed, "members of the LGBT community" is the phrase currently used in the opening sentence of the List of LGBT members of the United States Congress article. Funcrunch (talk) 02:31, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

How about this wording, instead: Butler, who is openly lesbian, is the first Black member of the LGBT community to serve in the Senate. Funcrunch (talk) 02:39, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I support this edit, with a slight change to "who is a lesbian" - this would match how a similar first is described on Senator Baldwin's page. Eventhisacronym (talk) 02:24, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Funcrunch, BBQboffin, Einsof - why do we have the following Categories: Category:LGBT African Americans and Category:LGBT people from California, etc., ?? What does it mean LGBT people ?? M.Karelin (talk) 05:28, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Taken as a group, "LGBT people from California" or "LGBT African Americans" is not awkward, but calling a specific individual an "LGBT person" (when that person likely identifies as one of the four, but probably not all four) is awkward. BBQboffin (talk) 05:36, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Ironically, I just got a bunch of notifications in my watchlist of pages being moved from Category:LGBT African Americans to Category:African-American LGBT people. Funcrunch (talk) 05:58, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

FYI I found (after some digging) that this category move was proposed by Mason (@Smasongarrison). Funcrunch (talk) 15:52, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi all, so I'm not really sure what's happening here. But, the use of "people" is a pretty standard category naming convention (Category:LGBT people. Category:LGBT people by ethnic group). You are welcome to suggest an alternative through categories for discussion. My two cents is that "member of the LGBT community" is better for individuals. No one actually says lgbt "person". Typically, there are child categories, like gay, lesbian, etc Category:LGBT people by identity. Mason (talk) 19:11, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Миша Карелин Because those are plural, while your proposed phrase is singular. Einsof (talk) 12:37, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

What would you say to this reply - as we can wee there is another option in very important sources - LGBT Senator or even LGBTQ Senator. What about that option ? M.Karelin (talk) 04:07, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

@Миша Карелин I don't love it. I think that using the more specific term (lesbian) as an adjective is more informative. I personally prefer "member of the LGBTQ community" for describing the larger group, but use the more specific adjective. Like, I'd never call myself an LGBTQ professor, but I'd say that I was a queer professor or a member of the LGBTQ community. Mason (talk) 11:59, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Миша Карелин Well, "senator", like "person", is singular. Is Butler a senator who is lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender all at the same time? If not, then we should not use the phrase "LGBT senator". You can generalize this test to any phrase of the form "LGBT <singular noun>". Einsof (talk) 12:32, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

@Einsof that's not how LGBTQ works. it doesn't mean your all those things. it means you are any of those things. But yes, in general I think that LGBT singular should be avoided if there is an alternative that's more specific. Mason (talk) 12:39, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree — LGBT or LGBTQ does not mean one is all of those things, hence why the term cannot be applied to singular individuals. Einsof (talk) 13:00, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

@Einsof Gotcha! I think that the term can be applied to singular, but only in situations where you don't know a more specific term. if you don't know the gender/pronouns of a person, for example, you'd likely refer to them as well "them". But once you learned their pronouns you'd use whatever those pronouns are. tdlr: LGBTQ senator isn't a great option as their are better alternatives. Mason (talk) 13:09, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

What about this wording I proposed previously: Butler, who is openly lesbian, is the first Black member of the LGBT community to serve in the Senate. Funcrunch (talk) 18:44, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

@Funcrunch it's sort of ambiguous. is she the first LGBTQ person who also happens to be black OR is she the first person who is both black and LGBTQ? I could read the sentence either way. Mason (talk) 18:50, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't see the difference in the categories you listed? The first member of the LGBT community who happens to be black vs the first member of the LGBT community who is also black seem to describe the same idea Eventhisacronym (talk) 19:27, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

@Eventhisacronym they're different. the first one says she's the first LGBTQ person, ever. (and her blackness is just describing her). in the 2nd option, she's not the first LGBT person, but shes the first black LGBT person - as in no one in the Senate has been BOTH black and LGBTQ simultaneously. Mason (talk) 19:36, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Got it. I personally find it difficult to read the sentence through the former lens, because a person trying to convey that information would say "Butler, who is openly lesbian, is the first member of the LGBT community..." and leave the word black out of the sentence, but I understand you disagree. Is the wording you think would be clearer? Eventhisacronym (talk) 19:56, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

@Eventhisacronym it's not that I disagree with you. I think that for the most part folks will interpret your sentence as you intended, especially with the added context of the page. out of all the options, I think it sounds better. like I'd rather have it be a tad ambiguous than say LGbtq person/senator. (I know that I've been using the phrase here, but that's more because I'm on a plane, and don't want to type member of the LGBT community each time)Mason (talk) 20:09, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

October 3

she was appointed the 1st. She wasn’t a senator til the 3rd. Don’t make a false date JackW2023 (talk) 02:42, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

This is already a discussion item above, under "Term as Senator". I thought as you did, that October 3 was the correct date but I was educated otherwise. Please assume good faith of other editors, make your case, and maybe we'll change our minds again once we hear it. Cheers! BBQboffin (talk) 03:50, 2 November 2023 (UTC)