Talk:Liero

Liero can be run on Windows XP fine, if you download OpenLiero, check http://open.liero.be/ for more information and edit the article for it :) - oh and it runs on Linux too :p

Lee-eh-roh...! Looks like Japanese ;). --Nappinenä 12:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Result of AfD
I have kept all articles but they should be merged here within a reasonable time frame. I trust enough editors are knowledgeable on the subject to do it properly. Cheers, Pascal.Tesson 00:02, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It's all described here I guess - that is, just paste over stuff from the articles and place redirects, then afterwards clean up this one. --Allefant 08:37, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I've done the basic cut and paste. Now we just need to snip out the redundant information from each section. Marasmusine 08:54, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Looking through the sections I've merged, they are all badly in need of independent references. Some were supported only by forum posts, which I have removed per WP:EL. Any help on that front appreciated. Marasmusine 09:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Another Liero "Clone"
I'm wondering why LieroAI isn't mentioned in the article. It is one of the older Liero clones, and open source at that. Sometime to take a look at, at least. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slythfox (talk • contribs) 05:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

"The game is often described as a real-time version of Worms"
How so? One reference does not justify the word "often". 86.136.251.18 04:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * because it is a real-time version of worms, though not necessarily a "clone" of worms :P --80.203.92.159 (talk) 23:36, 14 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Liero-Xtreme also described as based on Worms: [http://www.reloaded.org/download/Liero-Xtreme/107/
 * I want to know how Liero is relatd to Molez. Same programmer? Any reliable sources pointing out the similarities? If this isn't the case, then any mention of MoleZ needs removing as WP:OR. Marasmusine (talk) 17:14, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * MoleZ was a completely separate game, but was the main inspiration for Liero. This is currently stated on the official site liero.be. Liero also has also borrowed some of the sounds from MoleZ. Thats how it's related. --80.203.92.159 (talk) 23:36, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

besides, since all this was written, liero.be the offical site has been updated with a short history section.

Current state of development
As I am very active in the development of one of the clones (OpenLieroX), I know about the current state of active projects to some degree.

Nowadays, the three most noteable projects are OpenLieroX, OpenLiero and Gusanos. All others are not really used nand/nor actively developed (most of them haven't been touched since years). OpenLieroX is the only one of them which is actively developed. OpenLiero gets an update once in a while but development is more inactive than active (three changes since end of 2007 according to SVN; last release from Sept 2007). Gusanos development has stopped since the beginning of 2006 (well, there are plans to continue but nothing more than a few ideas came up and not much has been done yet).

The only project which runs on all decent architectures/systems (Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, MacOSX) and is at the same time fully open source and has only open source dependencies is OpenLieroX.

OpenLiero is also fully open source but only runs on Windows and Linux (perhaps even only big endian, haven't checked that). OpenLiero is also interesting because it's almost identical to the original Liero. AFAIK, it's also feature complete (by being almost identical to original Liero) and there is no big need to add much more to this clone. It's a very small project after all.

Gusanos itself is also open source but has some closed source (FMOD) and commercial (Zoidcom) dependencies. That's the main reason why it is not available on any of the Linux distributions and not ported to much other platforms (except Windows and Linux).

That is why I think that at least these projects should be noted in the article.

The history of the projects itself is perhaps also noteable. OpenLiero is a young project, I think the development has started in 2007. Gusanos and OpenLieroX are much older (or their history, because they have partly evolved from other projects). I don't know much exact details about the Gusanos history, so I leave that alone here. OpenLieroX development has started in Oct 2006. It is based on an old LieroX version, which was released at that time under a zlib licence because the original developer was not interested anymore in the project (there was already a newer LX version at that time which was not released for various reasons) (more details about this are in the article which I have recovered). The development of LieroX has started somewhen in 2002 (according to the LieroX readme; not exactly sure though, according to the comments in some files, perhaps even earlier).

I will try to add some verifications as far as possible (mainly to original READMEs). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Albertzeyer (talk • contribs) 01:25, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Another note: Can somebody state more exactly what is bad with current parts about Gusanos and LieroX? I tried to improve the LieroX part already a bit. The problem about perfect validation is that it's often not possible. For example, all official LieroX announcments were made only in a forum (thegaminguniverse) and some of the more specific details were said somewhere there (hard to find) or were said via mail/IRC. If LieroX lacks some references, please state which and I try best to see how far it is possible to reference it. Some of the old documents are also right now in our OpenLieroX SVN and will stay there. It's similar with Gusanos, I think most of their annoncements were made in their forum or just said in IRC. --Albertzeyer (talk) 13:38, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Clones
Is anyone able to provide verification for the various clones and remakes? They have been tagged for nearly two years. It's not common practice for video game articles to list clones/remakes that have no importance. So if the haven't been mentioned in reliable, third-party sources, I recommend removing them, especially as Liero itself has only borderline notability. Marasmusine (talk) 09:56, 12 July 2009 (UTC)


 * What type of verification? You mean if they are still important? I gave some notes (mostly from my subjective POV) about that in the section about Liero Extreme. I can list some links to some blogs/sites where they recently wrote about OLX but they are of course more inexact than the official site and/or the information I gave already. It's hard to messure which Liero clone (including Liero itself) is used the most. Albertzeyer (talk) 19:17, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * You'll find the type of verification required on the Wikipedia WP:Verifiability policy page. All information should be attributed to a reliable, third-party source. Citing official websites and directory entries isn't enough. Homebrew remakes usually aren't worth mentioning. Editors interested in developing this article should also take WikiProject Video games/Article guidelines into account. Marasmusine (talk) 13:16, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

references to Liero / LieroX / OLX
Hi Albertzeyer, I noticed you are helping the Liero by adding some citations. If you haven't already, please can you take a look at WP:Reliable sources, as blog sites such as DustyCloud.org and forums like thegaminguniverse.com aren't really usable. Thanks, Marasmusine (talk) 12:25, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi there. (Btw., can we perhaps talk via mail? This way via WP seems a bit uncomfortable for me. If that is ok for you, just reply here: albert DOT zeyer _AT_ rwth-aachen DOT de)

In case of LieroX, thegaminguniverse is the primary source. Jason Boettcher (the creator of LX) has used that forum all the time for all his announcements, so it's the primary source. All other quotes / references would be secondary. In fact, some already have been given and removed again because they were secondary (or the article has been removed after some years). Even the press would be less accurate than thegameinguniverse because that is where the official announcements has been made. It is not only the most reliable source possible, it is exactly the original and official source.

How does WP handle such cases where a forum is the place where some people have made their announcements?


 * For example in case of the WP article about Linux, also forums have been used for reference (for example the Linux mailinglist and some newsgroup entries). This was also the primary source.


 * In case of Quartz (graphics layer), a Slashdot forum post has been used as reference. Again this was the primary source.

I don't really see the difference to the case with LieroX here.

If you want secondary sources, I have many other forum articles / blog articles where people wrote about Liero / LX / OLX. I already referenced some of them. The whole Liero / LX / OLX community always has used forums for communication, so all reliable secondary references are somewhere in other forums.

You cannot expect that newspapers like the Washington Post will write anything about small non-commercial games like Liero. So such references are just never possible for freeware / open source games. I am wondering about the common sources for freeware / open source games? I could also make some links to some freeware/opensources sites where there is a small article about the game (but most of them just copied our description text).

I have looked up some other very famous freeware / opensource games and the situation is always very similar:


 * Teeworlds
 * SuperTuxKart
 * Super Tux (no reference at all)
 * Glest
 * Battle for Wesnoth
 * Globulation 2
 * Wormux
 * OpenArena

In case of Liero, the situation is also a bit different. Liero has a very long history and many old articles exists (even in sources which you would probably find more reliable). And nowadays, the Liero community still exists, splitted over the different clones (because the original Liero is not really useable anymore). But not so much articles exists (by what you call reliable sources) about these clones (or some exists but they are also completly outdated already). You have only the communities themself as the source for what Liero clones are up-to-date right now. And I am kind of into it because I am developing on the most widely used clone since the last 3 years (whereby LieroX was probably the most widely used clone since the last 6 years or so). (I wrote some more about the OLX history in the Liero discussion page.)

And I think that the most important clones are worth mentioning in the article. Even more because the original Liero is just not useable nowadays. If somebody reads the Liero article, he should also get the information how he can play the game.

So how should we handle the referencing different now than it is done for other OpenSource games / projects (for example those I stated above, or Linux, or many other opensource games in WP)? How are you handling such cases in general where there just aren't much more sources than the developers, the community around the project and some third-party communities?

Albertzeyer (talk) 13:15, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Albert, in response to your email, most of your queries about using primary sources can be found at this policy page: WP:PRIMARY - I hope this will explain why we can't use only the primary sources. Yes, primary sources can be used if reliably published. No, forums, blogs, wikis, or anything else which allows open content, are not considered reliable. No, EuroGamer hasn't mentioned Liero - I used this site as a demonstration that freeware games generally do receive coverage in publications. The other Linux games you mentioned: If they are famous amongst the community, then perhaps the various Linux publications have written about them. Honestly, if a game has made no impact outside of its direct community at all, then as a tertiary source, there's nothing for us to report on: WP is not a directory of all games that exist. You mention that Liero is more popular in Finland, and this gives me hope that non-English language sources exist. The .fi WP articles unfortunately do not link to anything useful. Marasmusine (talk) 09:35, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi, back again! I am not really sure why a forum where the original author has posted his announcements (and only there) is not a reliable source (for the announcement). If you would call the official announcement as not reliable, it's like you doubt of the existance of the announcement at all, but you can clearly see it in the forum and there is no way (except for the author or the administrator - as for any other primary source) to change this content. We cannot change the fact that this is the primary source (at least for the announcements by Jason Boettcher). (I also don't understand the difference to other open source projects like the Linux kernel for example, where forums like the mailinglist are used as reference.) Anyway, we can search for secondary sources (whereby as long as it is about simple technical facts about the game itself, I don't understand why secondary sources are better). The wiki I linked to is also the most reliable source when it comes to more detailed fact about Liero. Even when some other extern sources have written something about it, it will only be general. You cannot find exact dates and names and such detailed history in extern sources. So either we take out some of the interesting details which helps understanding the development history or we link it to the official / most reliable sources or we don't link it at all. Or I can try to search for further referencs (so we have both the official primary sources and some secondary) for those facts where it is possible. Can you perhaps state some points in the article where we clearly need some further references? I will just ask in the community if they can provide some further articles published about Liero / LX. Albertzeyer (talk) 09:11, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Albert, have a read through WP:PRIMARY if you haven't already. This explains why we rely on secondary, not primary, sources. There are three main components to a game article - Gameplay, Development history and Critical reception - preferably each with equal weighting. The gameplay section doesn't need to be referenced if it is a flat description of the game content. Development history relies on interviews or "making of" articles in magazines or other reliable publications. Critical reception should cite reviews that give a good analysis of the game with both positive and negative criticisms. As a tertiary source, our content is proportional to that given in secondary sources. For example, if Liero Xtreme hasn't attracted much attention from publications, then we shouldn't have 4 paragraphcs on the subject. Marasmusine (talk) 10:14, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the extra references, Albert. The Big Download review looks good - the site is part of the Game Daily network so should qualify for WP:RS. I'm not so sure about Lanthrax, I might check this with WP:VG/RS. I'm going to tidy up some of the duplicate ref tags. Marasmusine (talk) 00:03, 23 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Perfect. Some people in the community already search for more references. Btw., for some statements in the article, I am not exactly sure if the given references are Ok now or if some still lack some better references. Can you perhaps give some examples? Albertzeyer (talk) 09:50, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Just continue to replace self-published sources (wikis, blogs, forums, etc) with reliable sources. If you can find another piece like the the Big Download article, then you've got a strong case for a seperate article for OpenLieroX. Ask the community not to neglect searching dead-tree sources - perhaps a Linux print magazine is a good bet. Marasmusine (talk) 11:43, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Liero. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070324194207/http://comser.liero.org.pl:80/wiki/index.php?title=MoleZ to http://comser.liero.org.pl/wiki/index.php?title=MoleZ
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070326152656/http://comser.liero.org.pl:80/wiki/index.php?title=Liero_1.33 to http://comser.liero.org.pl/wiki/index.php?title=Liero_1.33

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers. —cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 08:18, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Liero. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090121184806/http://comser.liero.org.pl:80/wiki/index.php?title=Liero to http://comser.liero.org.pl/wiki/index.php?title=Liero
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090121184806/http://comser.liero.org.pl:80/wiki/index.php?title=Liero to http://comser.liero.org.pl/wiki/index.php?title=Liero#Modability

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 04:08, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Liero. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090121184852/http://comser.liero.org.pl:80/wiki/index.php?title=Liero_Xtreme to http://comser.liero.org.pl/wiki/index.php?title=Liero_Xtreme

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 23:19, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Another clone?
https://lier.io/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.84.63.195 (talk) 22:05, 21 February 2020 (UTC)