Talk:Limburgish

Edits by ‎93.221.40.167
I would like to quote this IP

Article Essen: (closely related to Dutch). removed. This isn't even wrong.

Talk:Lower Rhine region:

Once in the article:


 * "Bergish .. is the easternmost dialect of Limburgish"


 * Jan Goossens, Die Gliederung des Südniederfränkischen, in: Rheinische Vierteljahrsblätter. Jahrgang 30 1965, Ludwig Röhrscheid Verlag, Bonn, 1965, p. 79-94, esp. p. 79:


 * ‚Südniederfränkisch‘ nennt man [..] die Mundarten, die in einem Raum gesprochen werden, der sich beiderseits der Grenze zwischen dem Verbreitungsgebiet der deutschen und der niederländischen Kultursprache über drei Staaten, Deutschland, die Niederlande und Belgien, in einem Dreieck Tienen-Remscheid-Eupen erstreckt. Als Seiten des Dreiecks kann man die ik/ich-Linie (Tienen-Remscheid), die maken/machen-Linie (Remscheid-Eupen) und die romanische Sprachgrenze (Eupen-Tienen) betrachten. [...] Der niederländisch-flämische Teil dieses Gebietes ist unter dem Namen ‚Limburgisch‘ bekannt [...].


 * That is: South Low Franconian lies between Ürdingen and Benrath line (has ich and maken). Limburgish is the Netherlandic-Flemish part of it.


 * Bergish is variously defined, see Peter Wiesinger, Strukturgeographische und strukturhistorische Untersuchungen zur Stellung der bergischen Mundarten zwischen Ripuarisch, Niederfränkisch und Westfälisch, in: Peter Wiesinger, edited by Franz Patocka, Strukturelle historische Dialektologie des Deutschen: Strukturhistorische und strukturgeographische Studien zur Vokalentwicklung deutscher Dialekte, Georg Olms Verlag, Hildesheim / Zürich / New York, 2017, p. 341–437


 * p. 349f.: "1967 Erich MENGEL [...] 1. Südbergische Mundarten (südlich der Benrather Linie)"


 * I.e. Mengel's Bergish includes some Ripuarian, which is not South Low Franconian.


 * p. 422 (map): Elberfeld and Barmen lie north of the Ürdingen line (have ik).


 * p. 437 (map): Elberfeld and Barmen lie in the area of "Randbergisch" which is part of "Bergisch".


 * Hence some of Wiesinger's Bergish lies north of the Ürdingen line and isn't South Low Franconian (south of the Ürdingen line).

article Low Franconian

''Georg Wenker used the term Niederfränkisch (Low Franconian) more in the sense of Ripuarisch. Cp.:''


 * Georg Wenker, Das rheinische Platt. – Den Lehrern des Rheinlandes gewidmet, 2nd ed., im Selbstverlage des Verfassers, Düsseldorf, 1877


 * p. 13: "Davon abgesehen aber ist Köln der eigentliche Mittelpunkt einer großen, die ganze Mitte der Rheinprovinz einnehmenden Mundart. Diese hat man die niederfränkische genannt, und unter dem Namen wollen wir sie uns denn auch merken. Nach Norden ist die Benrather Linie ihre Grenze, [...]"


 * p. 14: "Wir haben nun noch zu sehen, wie das Niederfränkische, also die Mundart um Köln herum, sich nach Süden hin begrenzt. [...] Welches sind nun die beiden Mundarten, die sich hier vermengen? Die nördliche ist die niederfränfische um Köln, wie wir schon wissen, die südliche aber ist der Moseldialect auf dem linken Rheinufer zu beiden Seiten der Mosel und der Westerwälder Dialect auf der rechten Rheinseite im Westerwald. Diese beiden, der Moseldialect und der Westerwälder Dialect, sind fast ganz gleich und man nennt sie auch zusammen das Mittelfränkische (und zwar die nördlichste Mundart des Mittelfränkischen, denn [...]).


 * Jürgen Lang, Sprache im Raum: Zu den theoretischen Grundlagen der Mundartforschung. Unter Berücksichtigung des Rätoromanischen und Leonesischen, series: Beihefte zur Zeitschrift für romanische Philologie. Band 185, Max Niemeyer Verlag, Tübingen, p. 195

Most dialects and languages included within this category are spoken in the Netherlands, northern Belgium (Flanders), in the Nord department of France, in western Germany (Lower Rhine), as well as in Suriname, South Africa and Namibia.

and

North and South Low Franconian, classified like this:. Compare also:



Article Limburgish:

Gossens (1965) distinguished the following sub-dialects:


 * ostlimburgisch-ribuarisches Übergangsgebiet (East Limburgish - Ripuarian transitional area; Ürdingen, Düsseldorf, Solingen, Remscheid, Mönchen-Gladbach, Eupen)


 * Ostlimburgisch (East Limburgish; Panningen, Krefeld, Dülken, Sittard)


 * Zentrallimburgisch (Central Limburgish; Maastricht, Vroenhoven)


 * westlimburgisch-zentrallimburgisches Übergangsgebiet (West Limburgish - Central Limburgish transitional area; around and southern of Genk)


 * Tongerländisch (Tongeren)


 * Bilzerländisch (Genk, Bilzen)


 * Westlimburgisch (West Limburgish; Veldeke, Hasselt, St.-Truiden, Loon)


 * südbrabantisch-westlimburgisches Übergangsbiet (South Brabantian - West Limburgish transitional area)


 * Ostgeteländisch (Beringen)


 * Westgeteländisch (Tienen)

From talk:Dutch dialects

Limburgish = South Low Franconian?
Do you happen to have any sources for the equation Limburgish = South Low Franconian? Some sources: So possibilities are: --2003:DE:3700:672F:606F:14E4:BB48:829E (talk) 12:49, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
 * This article: It mentioned Southeast Limburgish (Aachen, Kerkrade) which is considered Ripuarian and not South LF. It still mentions Noord-Limburgs or  ik-Limburgs which having ik would be North LF and not South LF. But well, in large parts it was and is unsourced.
 * Belemans et al. (Dutch-language dialectological sources) have Noord-Gelders Limburgs = Kleverlands. This would be North LF and not South LF.
 * Per Goossens (1965, Die Gliederung des Südniederfränkischen, p. 79), Limburgish is the Netherlandic-Flemish part of South Low Franconian (= East Low Franconian). That is, South LF is broader than Limb.
 * HSK 30.4, p. 528 about South LF: "[...] in den Niederlanden und Belgien fort (Eupener Land, große Teile von Belgisch Limburg und Niederländisch Limburg). Hier ist die Bezeichnung Limburgisch üblich." This could be understood in different ways:
 * Dutch Limburgs being the same as German Südniederfränkisch (different terminology refering to the same area).
 * Dutch Limburgs like German Limburgisch being South LF in Benelux (Limb. and South LF being different terms refering to different areas).
 * / (refering to Jo Daan) has Limburgish roughly being South LF in Benelux. There's also "Noord-Brabants en Noord-Limburgs" or "Dialekt von Nordbrabant und Nordlimburg". The German refers to one dialect of two areas. The Dutch sounds like two dialects forming one greater dialect. But instead of understanding Noord-Limburgs as northern Limburgish (northern part of Limburgish) it might rather be North-Limburg-ish (dialect of North-Limburg).
 * Heeringa 2004 (ch. 9, p. 231) has Southwest Limburg roughly as central-southern part of Limburg (Belgium), and Limburg as north-eastern part of Limburg (Belgium), in parts of Limburg (Netherlands) (incl. Venlo) and small parts of North Brabant. So Heeringa's Limburg includes some parts of Goossens South LF and North LF. But it also doesn't overlap with the area of Limburg (Belgium & Netherlands).
 * Heeringa & Nerbonne 2006 present 3 dialect classifications.
 * "Figuur 6. Verdeling op basis van lexicale afstanden": here the area of Limburg is part of Zuidoostelijke dialecten (south-eastern dialects) and there's no dialect Limburgish.
 * "Figuur 8. Verdeling op basis van uitspraakafstanden": it's roughly West−Limburg / Oost-Limburg = Southwest Limburg / Limburg (Heeringa 2004). So includes parts of South and North LF.
 * "Figuur 10. Verdeling op basis van gecombineerde afstanden (lexicon en uitspraak)": it has Zuidwest−Limburg and Oost-Limburg (lacking the north of the previous Oost-Limburg but includes Ripuarian Kerkrade).
 * Limburgish = South LF in Benelux (Goosens; possible Jo Daan)
 * Limburgish = South LF [unsourced]
 * variously defined: Limburgish = some dialect(s) in Limburg (Belgium & Netherlands), be they North LF, South LF or possibly Ripuarian (Heeringa 2004, Heeringa & Nerbonne 2006)
 * politically: Limburgish = dialects in Limburg (Belgium & Netherlands), be they North LF, South LF or Ripuarian (e-WLD could be understod this way)
 * @IP: I can't ping you, but you'll read it anyway :)
 * The key for bullet point 2 lies with Goossens (1965). On page 79, he indeed writes: Der niederländisch-flämische Teil dieses Gebietes ist unter dem Namen 'Limburgisch' bekannt. But on p. 93, he suggests to replace the terms "East Low Franconian" (NL) / South Low Franconian (D) with "Limburgisch". And he implements this terminological revision in his Map 2, where e.g. Krefeld lies in the area of "Ostlimburgisch".
 * More about it is found in the chapter "Phonological features of Limburgian dialects" in the 2017 De Gruyter volume Dutch that I have mentioned before. Here, Ben Hermans writes on p. 337:
 * NB: "This map has met with general approval since its publication" (= Map 2 in Goossens 1965).. Since WP is largely built on secondary sources, here is one that tells us why following Goossens is probably not as bad an idea as appears to think it is.
 * Of course, the term "Limburgish" in Goossens' sense hasn't really caught up in Germany where Südniederfränkisch/Südrheinmaasländisch are commonly used. I suggest to write something like the following at the top of the section "Subdivisions of Limburgish":
 * Dialects of Limburgish belong to a group in the Continental West Germanic dialect continuum that is commonly called East Low Franconian in Dutch dialectology and South Low Franconian in German dialectology, and which extends across the Dutch-German border as far east as Remscheid. Goossens (1965) suggested "Limburgish" as a general term for this dialect group although in Germany, this term is hardly used for South Low Franconian dialects on the German side.
 * Or something like that. With this disclaimer, we can list Goossens's grouping, but place the focus in the further discussion on B/NL dialects, based on sources like the Taal in stad en land overview for the Belgian side. Currently, there is way too much detail about SLF varieties in Germany. Sure, there is a lot of interesting things to tell about them, but I admit it feels odd that this should happen in an article entitled "Limburgish".
 * And of course, we need to talk more about the fuzzy transition areas and the quite non-transitional dialects (like Venrays) that nevertheless are often called Limburgish by virtue of being spoken in Limburg. –Austronesier (talk) 13:27, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The equation East Low Franconian = South Low Franconian is doubtful. If it is right, the sentence in the German interwiki
 * Das Südniederfränkische entwickelte sich überwiegend aus den Dialekten des Ostniederfränkischen. meaning South Low Franconian mainly developed from the dialects of East Low Franconian. has to loose two logical errors. Sarcelles (talk) 19:47, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Goossens' seminal article and Hermans' chapter in the De Gruyter volume are. Here is another one:
 * Another one for Oostnederfrankisch = Südniederfränkisch = Limburgish:
 * Again, I know that Limburgish = South (or East) Low Franconian is just one of several definitions of Limburgish, and clearly not the most common one. But it can be helpful to justify a short mention of South Low Franconian dialects in Germany (as sister dialects of Limburgish varieties in B and NL) in this article, and also the Low Franconian dialects spoken in Liège (which AFAIK are generally not referred to as Limburgs in Belgium). –Austronesier (talk) 20:26, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
 * FWIW. another mention in the literature about the use of Limburgisch for dialects in Germany:
 * The easternmost part of the South Low Franconian area is assigned by Bremer to a separate dialect group, viz. Bergisch. Here are direct links to the archived map and text by Bremer from 1928 edition of Der Große Brockhaus:. –Austronesier (talk) 09:42, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Wiesinger merely quotes an old work. The maps based on Daan 1969 mainly cover perceptual dialectology, but are used frequently in Wikipedias. The ik/ich-line is without classifying value at least in the Western part of Germany. Aspects of Tonality, not features of consonants, are the main features of mittelfränkisch-maasländisch (Central Franconian-Meuse area) dialect.
 * This is a debate between probable Germans: Austronesier, the IP user and me.
 * We still have neither a convincing division of Limburgish nor convincing definitions of Kleverlandish or South Guelderish. Sarcelles (talk) 05:57, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The IP challenged the point Limburgish &equals; South LF (in its entirety) as unsourced. My job here has been simply to illustrate that this terminological usage has a long history. Whether we can follow it without giving it undue weight is a different story.
 * The actual range of the area of Limburgish (= E. Low Franconian = S. Low Franconian = ripuarisch-niederfränkisches Übergangsgebiet = whatnot) that undoubtly exists as a somehow definable entity is again another question. At the mid-level, the Uerdingen line has served as a handy starting point to roughly delineate the northern arc of its extent, but everybody knows by now that it is inadequate. To the west, it is too inclusive (cf. Gete line), to the north and northeast, it is too narrow. It is probably only useful from Panningen to Beringen, where it forms a relatively tight bundle with other, structurally more relevant lines.
 * There will always be a residue of conflicting results, especially for transitional areas like West Limburgish, or the dialects north/northeast of the Uerdingen line. Conflicting classifications mostly hinge on methodological questions such as which piece of evidence is given more classificatory weight. For Wiesinger it's all in the vowels, for Lameli, it's about significant clustering of data points in a "blind-folded" analysis of the Wenker data.
 * In this context, the question or Kleverlandish/South Guelderish is only relevant insofar as it has a southern border with Limburgish (= etc.). Its northern and western extent in the Netherlands is a different story, and is only discussed in Dutch literature.
 * The high-level classification of Limburgish (= etc.) is more contentious. For Wiesinger, it can be included within Ripuarian (thus within High German) based on its vocalism, but this only works because he is concernced with its varieties spoken on the German side, thus with a transitional area within a transitional area. This also holds mutatis mutandis for Lameli. Traditionally (both in German and Dutch dialectology), it seen as part of Low Franconian based on the Benrath line. Within Low Franconian, German dialectologists group it with Kleverlandish (= Nordniederfränkisch = "North Low Franconian"), which only makes sense if you limit the discussion to the German part (and probably als when extending to adjacent parts in the Netherlands in the Rhine-Maas area, hence Rheinmaasländisch), but in a holistic perspective, it makes little sense, simply because Kleverlandish is much closer to ABN by any parameter than Limburgish is (whether you treat is as a language of its own, a dialect of Dutch, or a dialect group in the Continental West Germanic dialect continuum).
 * But then, our job is to present these topics in all their complexity (NB I haven't even touched sociolinguistic and language-political aspects), based on good sources and always considering due weight. Linguistics and specifically dialectology is not all about rigid taxonomy. "Save the trees" is best left to environmental policy :) –Austronesier (talk) 10:04, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Southern Meuse-Rhenish is an article never existing in the last 15 years. However, the German interwiki de:Südniederfränkisch of the article Limburgish is to be translated as South Low Franconian.
 * http://www.wjheeringa.nl/thesis/thesis09.pdf has a map including map showing a group of dialects Limburg mainly coexistent with Dutch Limburg. The clarly non-Frisian varieties have the following two highest categories: One grouping including Limburgish and Northeast Luik including Kerkrade in the Netherlands inter alia and running to the respective area of all three official languages of Belgium, the other grouping including all varieties non mentioned hitherto as well as most of Belgish Limburg. This supports the idea of East Low Franconian. However, the study doesn't cover the part of Germany bordering to the Low Franconian area of Belgium and the Netherlands.
 * What should be done with the long, recent quotes above? Sarcelles (talk) 19:17, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I slowly try to bring all related articles more in line with the picture of widely accepted research results, especially considering due weight. I makes little sense e.g. to give too much weight on German research that largely focusess on the marginal area of South Low Franconian in Germany when we want to present a broad picture of the entire dialect area. As said before, I envision for this article a broad article concept: the main focus is of course on South Low Franconian varieties in Belgian and Dutch Limburg, since this is the topic that readers expect to be dicussed here based on its very title. But at the same time, we can give room to South Low Franconian varieties spoken in Liège and Germany. So to address one of your main concers: IMHO, the cross-wiki equation with de:Südniederfränkisch is justifiable. –Austronesier (talk) 18:35, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Limburgisch originally is only defined in the Benelux (Jo Daan), South Low Franconian was introduces by Goosens to include Germany and is still used by Cornelissen in LvR link. The demarcation is academic as Low Franconian and Kleverländisch are highly endangered dialects in Germany only spoken by the 60+ generation. See Georg Cornelissen Meine Oma spricht noch Platt (My grandmother is still speaking dialect). Hans Erren (talk) 01:48, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Jo Daan worked on perceptive linguistics.
 * This is not useful. Neuere Forschungen in Linguistik und Philologie. Aus dem Kreise seiner Schüler Ludwig Erich Schmitt zum 65. Geburtstag gewidmet, 1975, p. 57 has the Ripuarian-Low Franconian transitional area from Panningen to Germany on both sides of the Rhine as rarely demarcated by Uerdingen line. The Ripuarian-Low Franconian transitional area includes Duisburg on that page. Sarcelles (talk) 08:21, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
 * South Low Franconian was introduces by Goosens to include Germany This is not quite correct. Usage of the term South Low Franconian for the dialect area from Tienen to Remscheid obviously predates Goossens. Even "Limburgish" as a synonym of South Low Franconian to include dialects in the Rhineland predates Goossens. Dialect demarcations are always "academic", regardless of vitality. And academically relevant.
 * rarely demarcated by Uerdingen line, sure about "rarely"? It is still often seen in academic literature, even Giesbers uses it in her 2008 dissertation Dialecten op de grens van twee talen, which is the first monograph dedicated to Kleverlandish. And frankly, I start to feel uncomfortable to persistently see an emphasis on German works when discussing West Germanic varieties that are for the most part spoken in Belgium and the Netherlands. Austronesier (talk) 20:34, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Many of the sources entered by me on this talk page are from Belgium or the Netherlands. Furthermore, Wiesinger was an Austrian working in Austria. The many times I used his works rarely pertained to Belgium or the Netherlands. I have stated doubt on several sources from Germany. Which sources should be used for the borders of dialects?
 * Sarcelles (talk) 09:21, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello everyone. I'll not take part in this discussion! I've other “construction sites” that are more important than this one.
 * Have a pleasant day! -- MicBy67 (talk) 23:21, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't know why I'm mentioned here. Vinvlugt (talk) 13:06, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Because of having left a comment on the talk page of the Dutch article. There is the following incomplete jigsaw puzzle:
 * Limburgish in Germany is divided into Bergish and the remainder
 * Limburgish in Belgium is divided into three vertical parts
 * North Limburgish is part of Kleverlandish
 * Sarcelles (talk) 16:26, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Nice to see further discussion.
 * Excluding one place in Holland, Central Dutch in the Netherlands can be grouped into a cluster in Central Gelderland and a one of other varieties. Both clusters border to Germany. Most varieties in Gelderland South of the aforementioned variety of Central Gelderland cluster together with the dialect of Amersfoort and several varieties in North Brabant.
 * Dutch Limburg can divided into a small area around Weert, a large area until Venlo and an area North of this.
 * Centraal zuidelijke dialecten which encompasses Brabantic and parts of Northern Dutch Limburg and Northern Belgium Limburg.
 * It clusters with Tienen and also with Zuidwest-Limburg and Centraal zuidelijke dialecten and Urk Oost-Limburg doesn't group with these varieties.
 * Heeringa (2004) distinguished (names as in Heeringa):
 * Frisian
 * Frisian mixed varieties (including town Frisian (Stad(s)fries) and Stellingwerfs)
 * Groningen
 * Overijssel
 * Southwest Limburg
 * Brabant
 * Central Dutch varieties nearly entire Holland and Utrecht Province, as well as large parts of North Brabant and Gelderland
 * Limburg also nearly all of North Limburg. This part of North Limburg has a long border with Germany. For the most part, the places on the German side of this part of the border are in the Kleverlandish dialect area.
 * Northeast Luik, including Kerkrade and Eupen, could also be given as Southeast Limburgish.
 * Dialektologie. 2. Halbband Werner Besch, Ulrich Knoop, Wolfgang Putschke, Herbert E. Wiegand Walter de Gruyter, 2008 p. 858/859 has Ripuarian as to include
 * Nördliche Eifel
 * Mittleres Erft- und Rurgebiet
 * Aachener Land
 * Bergisches Land
 * Ripuarisch-niederfränkisches Übergangsgebiet ohne nordbergischen Raum
 * Nordbergischer Raum
 * Klaus J. Mattheier (ed.): Aspekte der Dialekttheorie. Tübingen 1983, p. 76
 * Werden
 * Cronenberg
 * Elberfeld
 * Barmen
 * Mülheim
 * Velbert
 * Breitscheid
 * Mündelheim
 * Solingen
 * Haan
 * Neuere Forschungen in Linguistik und Philologie. Aus dem Kreise seiner Schüler Ludwig Erich Schmitt zum 65. Geburtstag gewidmet, 1975, p. 82 are the following ones, the first place the one used exemplarily by the source entered today above.
 * Mülheim an der Ruhr, Oberhausen, Dümpten, Heißen
 * Werden, Heisingen, Kupferdreh, Bredeney
 * Haan, Hilden
 * Solingen, Hörscheid, Solingen-Wald, Ohligs
 * Barmen
 * Elberfeld
 * Cronenberg, Remscheid, Ronsdorf
 * Sarcelles (talk) 08:19, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Die Einteilung der niederdeutschen Mundarten auf Grund der strukturellen Entwicklung des Vokalismus
 * from 1971, p. 41 by Baldur Panzer has Uerdingen line as irrelevant particularity. Sarcelles (talk) 14:42, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Werden, Heisingen, Kupferdreh, Bredeney
 * Haan, Hilden
 * Solingen, Hörscheid, Solingen-Wald, Ohligs
 * Barmen
 * Elberfeld
 * Cronenberg, Remscheid, Ronsdorf
 * Sarcelles (talk) 08:19, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Die Einteilung der niederdeutschen Mundarten auf Grund der strukturellen Entwicklung des Vokalismus
 * from 1971, p. 41 by Baldur Panzer has Uerdingen line as irrelevant particularity. Sarcelles (talk) 14:42, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Legibility of this talk page
Not only I have made this talke page difficult to. What can I do to render its content better? Sarcelles (talk) 07:58, 10 March 2024 (UTC)


 * I've added Reflist-talk to the section above, and tagged the page so that older sections will be archived by a bot. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:39, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The reflist makes a better legibility. However, the content still doesn't follow the rules. How can I change this? Sarcelles (talk) 07:58, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * You don't actually say which are the problem sections. But what I do see is a lot of  pairs plus excessive indenting. These seem to have begun around July 2023. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 11:15, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * You removed the automated archiving code, with an edits summary "Automatic archiving removed, the disputes are not resolved"; this seems to be based on a misunderstanding, as live will not be archived. I have restored the code. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:47, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * This talk page currently has not a single resolved section as far as I know. Furthermore, it is difficult to read its content, which is even not formatted properly. Sarcelles (talk) 13:53, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

South Low Franconian
Just a heads-up for watchers of this page: I've created the article South Low Franconian which covers the West Germanic dialect group spoken (or in some areas, once spoken) in three countries. I've strictly focussed on its linguistic features as presented in sources from Belgian, Dutch and German scholars and left ample room for debated views (which btw do not depend on the nationality of the author, as this article (Limburgish) incorrectly states in multiple places).

Since the scope of this article largely overlaps with the Belgian and Dutch area of South Low Franconian, there are quite a few redundacies in the new article, many of which can be resolved if material pertaining to SLF varieties in Germany is trimmed or removed here (most of which is unsourced anyway). Other details are maybe best discussed here as is (like aspects that mostly relevant to the situation in Belgium and the Netherlands, especially the language-political dimension), while others (e.g. linguistic features common to the entire area, or at least are distributed over the Limburgs and German Rhineland) are better covered there. Austronesier (talk) 18:20, 1 July 2024 (UTC)