Talk:Lionel Messi/Archive 10

Pablo Aimar
No mention of Pablo Aimar as one of his biggest influences. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SLBedit (talk • contribs) 17:03, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 August 2015
Please change Incorrect Career Stats. Under "Other Apps/Goals" the correct final total should be 15 (11 Spanish SuperCup + 4 World Club) and not 16 as shown.

In the 2011/12 under this heading you have included 1 Euro Super Cup that should be in the column "Europe" and making the final total 80 Europe Goals (77 C/L + 3 UEFA Super Cup).

Heasmann (talk) 12:34, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, we include minor European competitions under "Other". The only competitions included under "Europe" are the Champions League and the Europa League. All Super Cups, e.g. the Supercopa de Espana, the UEFA Super Cup and the FIFA Club World Cup, are included under "Other". – PeeJay 13:56, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

medaltemplates
Rather than edit war about this, could you please start a discussion here... JMHamo (talk) 23:38, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I will not discuss, I will simply tell User:Shayne2000 that the infobox is not the place to put club honours. You can see from his version of the article that the number of honours Messi has won makes it ridiculous to put that many in the infobox, even if it is collapsed. Furthermore, it is contrary to the documentation for the article. Only national team honours go in there. – PeeJay 07:36, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 August 2015
I woud like to edit lionel messi's page as his height is mentioned 170cm while in reality his height is 168.5cm.

Sid0407 (talk) 12:10, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
 * For this change to be made, you'll need to provice a Reliable Source... JMHamo (talk) 12:30, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Rewrite
I've been working on a thorough rewrite of this article because I'm hoping to take it to FA eventually. So far I've finished his childhood and Barcelona career. Since this is supposed to be a collaborative effort I'm posting the link to my sandbox here. If anyone wants to help, perhaps by doing the Argentina section, please let me know.

I'm rewriting the article because too much of it just seems like a huge collection of vaguely related facts with little context. "On 7 February he scored this goal. On 2 March he broke that record. More stuff happened on 31 March", etc. Most football BLPs seem to be written in this style, which I find extremely tedious to read. Sourcing also isn't FA-level.

The article is very long, maybe too long. But even though I have added quite a lot of content, I've managed to cut the length down by 1100 words so far. Mainly by removing the following things:


 * Records. Not every 'record' Messi has ever set or matched needs to be mentioned in prose. For example, equaling Van Nistelrooij's CL goals is superfluous if he matched Altafini's all-time European Cup record only a year later.
 * Countdowns to records. The fact that he passed Zarra and Mueller and Whitney Houston on the way to a record is irrelevant; being the third- or second-highest is not a record.
 * Hat-tricks. A hat-trick is not a club season highlight for a scorer as prolific as Messi. Displays of four goals or more are rare enough that they are probably always worth mentioning.
 * Milestones. He has several all-time records that indicate his goal count in a competition at that time. If the reader knows he became Barca's La Liga topscorer with 190, we don't need to mention that he scored his 200th goal a couple of weeks later. It borders on trivia.

Anyway, that's the process so far. Like I said, help is of course welcome. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 13:15, 11 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree we need to be more selective with information (probably we should keep prizes, milestones, records, decisive goals in important matches - e.g. finals, trophies, derbies, etc.; I have trimmed some information already. Messirulez (talk) 18:10, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 August 2015
Hello, I would like to make a suggestion for some additions in Lionel Messi's individual records category that he arguably owns. Below of each record I am attaching the respective source that verifies it.

World - Only player in the history of football (alongside Diego Maradona) who has won the golden ball at both World Cup and Youth U-20 World Cup (2005 and 2014) Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Maradona

- Most man of the match awards in a single World Cup (four wins, shared record with Robbie Sneijder) Source: http://www.fcbarcelona.com/football/first-team/detail/article/fourth-mvp-for-leo-messi-at-the-world-cup-finals

- Only player in the history of football to have scored consecutively against all teams of a professional league (La Liga, season 2012-13) Source: http://www.fcbarcelona.com/club/the-honours/detail/card/fc-barcelona-individual-records

- Only player in the history of football to have scored in 21 consecutive matches in a professional league (La Liga, season 2012-13) Source: http://www.fcbarcelona.com/club/the-honours/detail/card/fc-barcelona-individual-records

- Most consecutive FIFA Ballon d'Or awards (2009,2010,2011,2012) Sources: http://www.espnfc.com/story/1291730/lionel-messi-wins-fifa-ballon-dor-for-fourth-straight-year http://www.fcbarcelona.com/football/first-team/detail/article/leo-messi-wins-the-fifa-ballon-d-or

Europe - Only player in the history of European Golden Shoe to have won the award by 100 points (50 goals x 2) Sources: http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/news/newsid=1796750.html http://www.worldsoccer.com/esm-golden-shoe/esm-golden-shoe-esm-golden-shoe/esm-golden-shoe-final-standings-335046

- Most European cities scored in Champions League history (23 cities: Barcelona, Madrid, Rome, Milan, Stuttgart, Bremen, Leverkusen, London, Manchester, Paris, Lyon, Amsterdam, Athens, Copenhagen, Lisbon, Glasgow, Basle, Prague, Moscow, Kiev, Donetsk, Minsk, Nicosia) Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2850058/Lionel-Messi-breaks-Raul-s-Champions-League-goalscoring-record-scored-23-different-cities-16-European-nations.html - Most European countries scored in Champions League history (16 countries: Spain, Italy, Germany, England, France, Netherlands, Greece, Denmark, Portugal, Scotland, Switzerland, Czech Republic, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Cyprus) Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2850058/Lionel-Messi-breaks-Raul-s-Champions-League-goalscoring-record-scored-23-different-cities-16-European-nations.html

Dim. Nor. 86 (talk) 11:08, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Yellow check.svg Partly done: 1. Wikipedia cannot be a reference source

2. Already done 3. Not in source, already done 4. Not in source, already done 5. Already done 6. Already done 7. Already done 8. Already done Inomyabcs (talk) 12:56, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Honours and records
Hi, I've been cleaning up the lists of honours, so I'm posting (some of) the ones I've removed here in case someone wants to argue why these are worthy of inclusion. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 17:15, 7 September 2015 (UTC)


 * In that vein, I've removed some more records from the lead, which I've added below. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 11:31, 8 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Removing my post, because they've been restored without discussion, sourced to messivsronaldo.net, messinews.net, 24sevennews.co.ke, scoopnest.com, crazyhorsebooks.com and analysisfc.com. :| Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 07:39, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Dim. Nor. 86 and other editors, can we please be a little more discerning in the material that is included in this section? "Most consecutive Ballon d'Ors: 4, youngest four-time winner"... when he is the only one with four! "Top scorer in the UEFA Super Cup with 3 goals, shared by eight other players." How can that be considered a record? Some of Messi's records are genuine, career-defining achievements, but they're buried in a mountain of pointless crap like "Most European cities scored in UEFA Champions League history." Not everything that the internet comes up with should be included. If the BBC or Reuters or a similar outlet isn't reporting on something, there's a reason. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 07:39, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Heritage
Underbelly 50 has repeatedly removed Messi's ethnic background, asserting that it isn't sourced. Here's the appropriate quotation from Balagué 2013, pp. 32–37.

"The [Messi] family are grandchildren and great-grandchildren of Italian immigrants who came to Rosario from Recanati and Ancona, in the Marche region of Italy. Lionel also has Spanish blood. [...] One of Leo's great-grandmothers, Rosa Mateu i Gese, came from Blancafort de Tragó de Noguera, an area in the Pyrenees near Lleida, and emigrated to Argentina as a child. Crossing the Atlantic she met a man from Bellcaire d'Urgell, José Pérez Solé [the parents of Leo's father's mother]. [...] The Messi/Perez family settled in Las Heras. Close by lived the Cuccittini Olivera parents of Celia [Leo's mother], who were also of Italian descent."

So two of his paternal great-grandparents are from Marche, Italy, two are from Catalonia, Spain, and his mother's family is more vaguely described as being "also of Italian descent." Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 07:24, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Updating
Guys Yash.arora65 (talk) 21:06, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Guys lionel messi's page needs to be updated. He is injured Yash.arora65 (talk) 21:07, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

International goals list
Could an "List of international goals scored by Lionel Messi" be created and added somewhere in Lionel's page, please? Other players have it, and it's usually very useful. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.179.211.238 (talk) 06:06, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 November 2015
99.238.54.138 (talk) 19:30, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 22:28, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 December 2015
nickname-mycroscopic fly

87.110.4.15 (talk) 10:02, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
 * X mark.svg Not done No source provided and never heard it. Qed237&#160;(talk) 11:41, 5 December 2015 (UTC)


 * You're misusing the request template, but it's a good suggestion; I'll add it somewhere. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 13:26, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Demonym unification
The article uses a mixture of demonyms (Argentine and Argentinian).

The preferred demonym for Argentina is Argentine and I suggest the instances in which Argentinian is used should be changed to Argentine.

Wrong official debut date
"Even before these two debuts, Messi made his official debut for the first-team on 16 October 2004, in a friendly match against Porto.[28][29][30]

Less than a year after his start, Frank Rijkaard gave him his league debut against RCD Espanyol on 16 October 2004"

Wrong. Must be a tiping or editing error. You can already tell by logic, being that both matches state the same exact date when that's very unlikely or impossible. Also the sentence itself says that the second match was played "Less than a year after" the first one. The friendly match against Porto was on 13 November 2003, he was 16 years and 145 days old there. Check these articles for reference about his debut, especially the second one, which gives the exact date and some info about the match.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/football/05/22/messi.football.best.world/

http://www.fcbarcelona.com/football/first-team/detail/article/leo-messi-made-his-debut-for-barca-s-first-team-eight-years-ago

Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2016
Rskipr (talk) 18:56, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Not done: no request. --Jaellee (talk) 19:11, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Stats section suggestion
UEFA Super cup appearances and goals are mentioned in the others column, so we can rename the Europe column to UEFA Champions League column Abhinav0908 (talk) 15:52, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Individual honours
I came across this hidden note in Cristiano Ronaldo: "LEAGUE AND FEDERATION-SANCTIONED AWARDS ONLY. No fan or magazine-voted awards. Listed by kind of award." That article doesn't actually comply with its own standard, but I want to suggest implementing something similar here. I propose we keep only honours from FIFA, UEFA, La Liga and media collectives, and remove all single-media awards (bar France Football's Ballon d'Or, being the precursor to the FIFA award). As is, there's no clear standard for inclusion of single-media honours. For example: El País and L'Équipe have a similar level of prestige, but we only include the former's Best Player award. Don Balon and Marca are utter trash, but their awards are included here. Removing these would set a clear standard, while still leaving a very sizable list of honours. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 10:37, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I only brought this up two days ago, but I'm pretty certain nobody but me cares either way, so I'm going to be bold and implement my proposed change. As always feel free to revert and discuss. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 10:37, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Asperger's / Autism
I was doing some reading on Asperger's - Autism and looking for famous people with this. Several sites said as a kid Messi was diagnosed with Asperger's (a less serious form of autism). You never outgrow this as the basic point is your brain is wired differently with advantages and disadvantages. Watching interviews, he acts like an Aspie (this is my personal judgment so not enough given WP:NOR but several reliable sources on Autism mention him). Is there any reason this isn't on the page? If not, I'll add it. It definitely seems sufficiently relevant as this explains a lot of his style. This was brought up a while back but left unresolved: Talk:Lionel_Messi/Archive_8. >> M.P.Schneider,LC (parlemus • feci) 14:25, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
 * He may very well be autistic with Asperger's but without a very good source such as a biography or an interview with a family member it is just speculation even if it is by an expert on autism. The main issue I have with the assumption that Messi is autistic is that it falls on the mechanical repetition argument and his supposed autistic manners, to me neither of them are convincing as he clearly has a fairly broad set of manners for a person with Asperger's and his footballing is simply to unpredictable, my experience with a couple of friends diagnosed with Asperger's is that they are extremely narrow with their manners, something I don't see in Messi when it comes to his public interviews, but maybe I'm wrong? 79.148.180.77 (talk) 01:30, 15 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Just a reminder that BLP also applies to talkpages, so we should probably refrain from speculating about someone's mental health. For what it's worth, Messi's authorised biography refutes the claim that he was diagnosed as a child. It seems to be a fairly common rumour, at least I recall Romario bringing it up as fact. MPSchneiderLC, which RS have you come across on this topic? Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 10:29, 15 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Some sources (although this isn't my field of expertise so I'm not 100% sure which are RS - honestly I was looking for role models for a friend diagnosed with Asperger's): Daily doctor, Portuguese news website, non-RS translation of portugese website (I speak Italian & Spanish so can say reliably that it mentions being diagnosed with autism at 8 in the first line but don't feel copnfident in a complete translation), Romario's comments, A source stating he doesn't (although the fact his family denies it might mean the rumor is sufficient to get mentioned), mentioned as a rumor, etc. I just found these using a simple Google search. I had found his name on lists on autism sites like this but I think any group might tend to have reporting bias favoring famous people being in their group if this isn't certain. So in the end this seems like it's probably a denied rumor on soccer sites but assumed to be true on autism sites (although oddly, all seem to agree on his diagnosis at 8). The question is then: is that sufficiently worth mentioning? If so, I'm guessing we could put it as a speculation. De: WP:BLP: like Romario's tweet comparing Messi to Einstein, Aspergers is more of a focus on a small number of things and lack of social skills than a mental disease. >> M.P.Schneider,LC (parlemus • feci) 16:33, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 February 2016
Please change the FIFA BALLON d'Or to 2009. 2010, 2011, 2012, 2015 because Messi won the BALLON d'Or in 2009 as well. Thanks!

Individual

Awards

FIFA Ballon d'Or: 2010, 2011, 2012, 2015[359]

Lizardlking (talk) 20:03, 18 February 2016 (UTC)


 * X mark.svg Not done No, there was no FIFA Ballon D'or in 2009, just Ballon D'or. Qed237&#160;(talk) 21:42, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 February 2016
Please change the TOTAL APPS from 22 to 32 because 10+5+17 equals 32! Please change the TOTAL GOALS from 6 to 11 because 5 and 6 equals 11!

Apps Goals	                     Apps Goals Barcelona C	2003–04[354]	Tercera División	10	5	—	—	—	10	5 Barcelona B	2003–04[31]	Segunda División B	5	0	—	—	—	5	0 2004–05[32]	                              17	6	—	—	—	17	6                                                                Total	22	6	—	—	—	22	6

Lizardlking (talk) 19:56, 18 February 2016 (UTC)


 * X mark.svg Not done The totals are for when there are two seasons or more. The totals for Barca B is 5+17=22 apps and 0+6=6 goals. <i style="font-family:Sans-serif"><b style="color:blue">Qed</b><b style="color:red">237</b>&#160;<b style="color:green">(talk)</b></i> 21:46, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 March 2016
I would like to add the latest Lionel Messi contribution ,which was the free kick he scored in the 2-1 home win against Sevilla on 28th of february. source:http://www.goal.com/en-india/match/barcelona-vs-sevilla/2086514?ICID=MP

Kingslayer10 (talk) 17:00, 1 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. Also, just because he scored a goal it is not certain it is notable enough, goals are scored all the time. What is so special about this goal? <i style="font-family:Sans-serif"><b style="color:blue">Qed</b><b style="color:red">237</b>&#160;<b style="color:green">(talk)</b></i> 17:05, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 March 2016
stat update :Most hat-tricks scored in all competitions by a Barcelona player:35 http://www.sportskeeda.com/football/stats-records-broken-after-barcelonas-5-1-win-over-rayo-vallecano

Kingslayer10 (talk) 16:25, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Please provide a better source. The URL you gave appears to be a fan site.  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) Please &#123;&#123;re&#125;&#125; 04:17, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 March 2016
Hello can i edit Lionel Messi article please have a few changes and thats it

Thanks

Lionel1Messi0 (talk) 21:13, 23 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you. <i style="font-family:Sans-serif"><b style="color:blue">Qed</b><b style="color:red">237</b>&#160;<b style="color:green">(talk)</b></i> 21:41, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Young Boy
There was a huge story of a young boy who made his own Messi jersey I believe. I feel that this would be notable enough for the article since it went quite viral this last year. Ilikeguys21 (talk) 14:52, 11 April 2016 (UTC)