Talk:List of Jewish leaders in the Land of Israel

POV problems
Pretty obvious -- even the lead reads as though the biblical accounts are historical fact. Dougweller (talk) 19:06, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed, the issue of religious and political POV needs to be re-addressed. Biblical Hebrews or Israelites were not Jews, neither ethnically nor religiously, nor was Israel a political or geographic entity to encompass all land between the Jordan and the Mediterranean. A distinction must be made to discern ancient actual and biblical definitions from medieval and modern re-interpretations. This article seems to perform a revision of history and needs a clean-up to make it encyclopedic. &#9798; CUSH &#9798;  03:58, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Beginning to correct neutrality problems and general awfulness
The "it was kept in AFD, therefore we can never change it again" argument is even weaker here than it usually is since the closer specifically stated that neutrality issues should be fixed through editing. The primary neutrality issue was that the article was an obvious attempt to make a political point about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict by creating a pretended continuity from Abraham to (now) Bibi, and we can begin (though not finish) addressing that issue by removing the modern political leaders. However, even pretending that this wasn't created with a political goal by a single-purpose activist account, it's still just a bad article that needs enormous amounts of work to even begin to be acceptable. Who is a "Jewish leader"? Is it, as JethroB states, a leader who is Jewish? Then why isn't Tzipi Livni here? Indeed, why not Meir Kahane? And if you'll argue that those two aren't official enough or don't have enough power, why the heck is Matityahu here, who, as far as official positions go, was just a regular cohen? If what we're really going for is "leaders of Jews," since we've got Egypt and Babylon here as well and ignoring the "Israel" bit, why don't we list the Baal Shem Tov? The excuse that political and religious power were conflated in some periods can only go so far; they're clearly not conflated now or in many of the other periods on this list. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:06, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't see anywhere an argument similar to the one you mentioned, that this article can't be changed because the AfD result was to keep... What I see is the BRD process in work. You removed material, I noted there wasn't consensus on the AfD for this and I (and others) do disagree with removing it, so if we're going to remove it, we need to host a discussion first and reach consensus on it.
 * Now, you list a few points there, and many different leaders. Who specifically do you want to discuss in this section? Feel free to create additional sections for each one, it's just too much right here.
 * It'd also be helpful to approach this article as an informative one on Jewish history, rather than seeing everything as a terrible POV attempt by having one section all the way down at the end that lists prime ministers of a country... I'm not a mindreader, so I can't talk for the person who made this article.  Yeah, maybe that was their goal. Maybe it wasn't. Let's assume good faith though. -- Jethro   B  04:16, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The issue around which all the other issues revolve is that the scope of this article is impossible to define. Your suggestion below is an attempt to clarify that, but it does result in removing enormous amounts of material and I wasn't sure that was what you actually wanted, as well as the fact that it still isn't very good. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 04:29, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Rename

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was no consensus. --BDD (talk) 19:41, 22 October 2012 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

List of Jewish leaders in the Land of Israel → List of Jewish rulers in the Land of Israel – This should address Roscelese's concerns above and narrow the scope to include those who had authority as rulers or an appointment to rule as governor, rather than a leader of a movement, even if not the official person in power. Relisted. BDD (talk) 19:41, 15 October 2012 (UTC) -- Jethro  B  04:19, 7 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Doesn't solve the problem. Bibi is the PM of Israel - he's not the ruler of "the Jews" - and I don't see a way in which that isn't the implication. (It's true that there's not really any other way of saying "leaders who are Jewish," but then you run straight back into the issue of why you feel the need to make that list.) And where does this leave us with geonim? For that matter, with patriarchs? Basically my point has been that any attempt to make this into a real article would result in absolutely gutting it and/or replicating existing sub-lists individually... –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:27, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * You expressed concern above that this would eliminate a lot of content, something I wouldn't want to do. Basically, I think that the purpose of this list should stick to any Jew who had authority at a certain period of time in the land of Israel, whether elected or appointed as a governor or having ascended to the throne.  In that sense, some of the kohanim listed here would stay, because during the Maccabean Revolt, they gained authority over certain areas, and at times, even over all of Judea.  Some prophets here would go, since they were just prophets. That's my proposition.
 * Bibi is the PM of Israel and Jewish. The title of the list is simply for rulers who are Jewish in Israel.  It's not for leaders who ruled over Jews.  "Jewish rulers" means that the rulers themselves were Jewish. -- Jethro   B  04:35, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Like I said, that runs us right back to the fundamental question here: what purpose is served by having a list of rulers who were Jewish in a geographical area? What I'm saying is that there is no encyclopedic common link here. If we are interested in Jewish subordinate rulership under various empires, there is no reason to limit it to what is now Israel and no reason to include modern PMs. If we are interested in Jewish rulers of a national or subnational entity, we must split it by entity. (à la List of Jewish American politicians, but of course a List of Jewish PMs of Israel would be redundant). –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:43, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think there's a point in having such a discussion, seeming that there was an AfD on this and if the result was kept, I think it's interpreted as consensus that there is indeed a point in this list and we should keep it. The question is - where do we go from here? -- Jethro   B  04:56, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The "keep" votes displayed a lot of...interest in asserting a continuity of Jewish leadership from ancient times to the present, but not very much interest in improving the article. We are here to improve the article, so let's figure out how we can do so! Clearly the first step would be finding sources that establish the topic of the list, the way most of the keep voters claimed should be possible as a vague figleaf of policy compliance, so if you're opposed to restricting the scope, I would very much recommend that you look for sources. Otherwise, we can have what would be a productive discussion, and find the best way to retain part of the list while also having something that isn't completely worthless here. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:18, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I felt that my rename would restrict the scope to just people who had authority and control, no? As opposed to just kohanim or prophets or political leaders, who may have been leaders of a respective group or admired by the nation and looked up to, but not a real ruler. -- Jethro   B  05:25, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Can you provide a (reliable) source that synthesizes Jewish rulers in this geographical region from the Judges (maybe?) to the PMs? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:29, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, I don't see the need? I'm not here to argue or anything about whether this article should be kept, that was settled on the AfD. This section is to rename it. Lists generally don't need such refs. That's why they're lists.  For example, List of American Muslims - I don't know of a single reference that synthesizes all American Muslims...  The article has many references. But the list still stands, as it's correct.  But if you're asking for the information on this - just read any book on Jewish history, try a book by Lawrence Schiffman, a professor at NYU and YU, for example. Certainly, you are familiar that many people have argued about the Jewish continuity in Israel, and was a motive and reason for Zionism.  But I don't see the connection here to renaming the article... All of that was for the AfD, and honestly, I'm not going to spend additional time here trying to argue what was settled on an AfD.  Lists are lists. And we have the refs for each part of the list or it's in the wikilink, it's good. Whether the list should exist, for AfD. -- Jethro   B  05:36, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * No one has written a book that covers all American Muslims, but an American Muslim is a definable subject discussed in reliable sources. It's concerning that after being asked several times (and I ask again) you can't or won't produce any sources on the article subject (I'd love to know what in Schiffman you're claiming supports this original synthesis). –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:49, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The only reason to provide a source is if you think this article shouldn't exist because no source covers it. Well, an AfD already confirmed that this list should in fact exist and be held together, as it is a definable subject whose subjects are discussed in other articles and sources. It has nothing to do with the rename. Let's assume I voted to delete this article. Ok. But then the AfD consensus was to keep - so now I'm looking to improve this article, not debate whether or not it has merit.  I obviously think it doesn't (assuming that scenario) - but beyond my control, it was voted to be kept.  -- Jethro   B  05:52, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm looking to improve it by finding a scope that will allow us to edit it productively and prevent its functioning completely and solely as a propaganda page in contrast to Wikipedia goals. Like I said = "the AFD voters voted for this version, so we have to keep it like this" is always a weak argument, and it's especially weak here when the closer explicitly stated that the observed neutrality and synth issues should be fixed through editing. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 06:02, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * That's great, but no one's making such an argument, as evident from my 2 most recent edits to this article and statements above. -- Jethro  B  06:04, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your effort, but your proposed scope is still untenable. I don't see the difference between your deciding that the AFD voters didn't really vote to retain the Patriarchs and my thinking that they voted to have an article so that it's better to give the article a scope and sources that will let it not be deleted later on. Or rather I do, but it's not my argument it reflects poorly on. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 06:08, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * What about "Leaders in the Land of Israel"? I imagine that most leaderss of a Jewish state would be Jewish, so that adjective is redundant.  TFD (talk) 05:14, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Not necessilary. Consider Bagos, a Persian who governed Judea after Nechemia/Ezra. I don't think he was Jewish. -- Jethro   B  22:37, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
 * That could apply to almost any country. We could have for example "American Leaders in the Land of the United States of America", and exclude British governors who ruled parts of the U.S. from 1783-1815.  And we could have interesting conversations about whether or not to include the current president.  TFD (talk) 18:39, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 * If the article is solely about American leaders in the US, you'd probably discuss whether US = US today or also includes colonial times when it wasn't called US. But eitehr way, British people aren't Americans. As for Obama, that's regarded as WP:FRINGE. -- Jethro   B  23:13, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 * 1783-1815 was not "colonial times", the United States declared independence in 1776 and concluded a treaty with the UK in 1783. (See History of the United States.)  It is not clear who is Jewish, so we can look forward to long arguments that ultimately are a waste of time.  TFD (talk) 02:37, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Two different scenarios though. This article isn't dealing with each individual provincial leader or provincial governor or tax collector or local assembly leader or representative in the Gerousia. It's dealing with the main leader at the time.  For example, George Washington. -- Jethro   B  02:39, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Your example was Bagos whom you said governed the ancient province of Judea. Not all the leaders in this article governed all of Israel, particularly after ten of the tribes were lost, do you suggest we remove them?  TFD (talk) 02:53, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, but the province of Judea was the entire area surrounding Jerusalem that at that time was where Jews in Israel lived. I was referring to, in the recent statement, something along the lines of cities or districts and town leaders and chiefs.  Not the province itself of the Persian Empire. -- Jethro   B  02:58, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * So how is that different from having an article called "American Leaders in the Land of the United States of America"? TFD (talk) 03:26, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * How is what different?? I've lost track of where this is going, honestly. -- Jethro  B  03:52, 12 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh yes, this discussion was happening. All of this discussion about the "main leader" and whether or not he governed all of Israel or Judea just keeps returning us to the problem I articulated earlier: What is the common link here that justifies an article? If we want, as you (JethroB) said in your comment at 02:58, a leader of the Jews as opposed to the territory of Israel, why do you insist on restoring Israeli prime ministers? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:30, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Israel's Basic Laws define it as the nation-state of the Jewish people, and that is what it was established as. -- Jethro  B  19:12, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
 * You are not making any stronger the argument that this is totally encyclopedic and totally not about making a political point at all. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 23:45, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't need to make a case for why this article is encyclopedic; it survived an AfD and was decided it should be kept. All I'm saying is that it fits to include the prime ministers of Israel. There's nothing "political" about that. --<small style="border: 1px dashed;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> Jethro   B  01:52, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Because the "Land of Israel" belongs to the Jews and has since the time of Abraham. Riiiiiiight. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 06:51, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Shalmaneser
2 Kings 18:9 mentions King Shalmaneser http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Kings+18&version=NIV | Which Shalmaneser is it (there were at least 5)

Twillisjr (talk) 04:56, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Hello?
The failure of the requested move did not end the discussion over the article's scope. If no one wants to make the article encyclopedic, it will simply have to be nominated for deletion again, and that would be unsatisfying for everyone. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 06:50, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Scope
I agree that the list should be restricted to jewish leaders, in the area of Israel, but think that there are a few dissagreements from the way you are interpreting things
 * The borders fluctuate. Anywhere that is or was israel should be valid (or a decent argument could be made towards that, considering the exact borders thousands of years ago are unknown)
 * Leaders in exile who are maintaining some form of claimed authority over the people/land in isreal should be included. (IE, Presidents of Taiwan as leaders of China, Dalai Llama as leader of tibet)
 * I think restricting to political leaders only is problematic. Ancient times relied heavily on tribal and religious leaders, who often wielded great power and influence, including the (legal, if not practical) ability to depose and annoint kings, and religious law in many cases WAS the law.

For those jews far away, who maybe leaders in the diaspora, I agree, they can be excised. Egyptian/babylonian ones I think should be discussed to see if they meet point #2 above, but I can see good argument for removing them, as I do agree this is not "leaders of jews" but "leaders in israel" Gaijin42 (talk) 16:50, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Fluctuating borders are one thing, but Egypt and Babylon are obviously out, and that's some of what you added. My aim has never been to exclude everything one centimeter outside what is now Israel, but rather to exclude stuff that can't possibly fit.
 * I disagree. One of the main scope issues that the list has is that it's essentially a mashup of "people who ruled in Israel" and "people who were leaders of the Jews." The leaders in exile are leaders of the Jewish community but not rulers in Israel - modern prime ministers rule in Israel but aren't leaders of the Jewish community. I don't think the "leaders of the Jews" plan is less valid as a list, but as things are now, the article specifies Israel and includes people who fit only those criteria. Both together clearly won't work.
 * I think that's a valid point and it's why, in my trimming of the article, I've retained a number of religious leaders who also held political or legal power, eg. High Priests during the Hasmoneans, or Palestinian Patriarchate. What I think we need to be careful of is including people who are only religious leaders (I don't remember why I left Hacham Bashi, maybe I looked into it further and found evidence of political leadership when I was doing it the first time). –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:03, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * 1)Are you saying they didn't rule somebody? Lots of competing kings/leaders at the same time during some periods. (IE, who leads palistine right now? PLA? Hammas? Fatah? all?) For that matter, in the equivilent "arab/muslim" list, are they leaders of the arabs/muslims in palestine that is occupied, or actually in israel?
 * 2)Egyptian/babylonian leaders who are leaders of jews in egypt/babylonia, I agree are out. I am saying some of them may still be leaders of the jews in israel (or area that is/was israel), and if so they should be kept. For example, if Israel is conquered, and jews given some level of autonomy, but the leader is held hostage in the conqueror's land, he should still count, as long as he is still able to lead (via message or whatnot). (I am not explicitly saying any of the people in the list meet this criteria, just trying to correctly build consensus on what the criteria is) Gaijin42 (talk) 17:16, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * 1) I'm not clear on what this is responding to. Can you clarify?
 * 2) Oh, I understand your point now! That makes sense, I guess...I just am not sure that anything in the list met those criteria. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 17:18, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) is responding to your comment above that begins "I disagree". Some religious leaders (or tribal leaders) may have had absolute plenary (or some vassal-ish) rule over some jews in Israel, even though there was a nominal king of all of Israel. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:24, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks. While I agree that that may be the case, I don't think it's tenable from an encyclopedic point of view. Those matters are better handled in other, existing articles about religious leadership (eg. Geonim), rather than being mixed in. (In the same way, in the modern-day USA, people might vote for candidates and referenda according to the commands of their religious leaders, but it would be quite silly to include a parallel list of Popes alongside a list of Presidents when talking about leaders of the United States.) Are there specific examples of tribal leaders that you think belong? I think one could make the case that leaders of sub-political entities and religious leaders could be handled differently, depending on evidence. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 17:31, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, types of leadership have changed significantly in the past thousand years. Certainly, I would agree that popes should not be listed as american leaders. But if the president delegated authority to rule catholics (some sort of catholic Shaira law?) then it could be. Beyond that, certainly there were multiple simultaneous autonomous (or at least vassal state) divisions within the land of israel weren't there? The entire area was not consistently ruled by a single king (although that single king may have ruled what was named israel at any given time).

frankly, I dont have the background knowledge to comment on any particular person. My objection was more that with such a massive change in one edit, I do not think proper consideration for each entry that it was not meeting the criteria of the article. Many of them may need to ultimately be removed, but each should be given proper consideration. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:38, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think the assumption that I didn't give them proper consideration is a fair one. I looked into our articles on each grouping and individual members in it and decided that some of them belonged, and some of them could not possibly fit even within the vague and fluffy scope previously established. Since you admit that you don't know enough to edit but are unwilling to accept my edits, I don't know what you can be imagining as the way forward from here. Rather, I think it would be a good idea for you to reverse yourself, and then, if you look into the material and think it can be added back, try to make that case. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 17:52, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I would like to see edit summaries for each one as to why they don't meet the criteria. Are they not a leader? Not in israel? not jews? etc. Just saying the same blanket justification for deleting a large % of the article is very difficult to work with. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:50, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll put the information here instead. Biblical characters (patriarchs): not leaders. Important in religious tradition, but if we counted every father of a family as a leader, the term would become even more vague and useless than the article is already making it. Joseph through Moses not in Israel. Judges can possibly be retained, and I've retained the kings. Sheshbazzar is the same person as Zerubbabel, whom I left in, and Ezra was not a political leader. IP user claims that the high priests were the sole rulers of the Jewish people, but this isn't apparently supported by the material present, which indicates that they were religious leaders. Hasmoneans retained since material indicates that in this period, high priests were also political leaders. Herodians retained. Palestinian patriarchate retained, but the IP's claim of continuity of authority reverted. "Sanhedrin in Secret" removed since they obviously did not exert political authority. Karaite Patriarchate apparently also didn't wield any power; the IP seems to be using "leader" in the sense of "anyone that anyone follows," but that really isn't tenable. Geonim removed since they're religious leaders and more than half of them are in the diaspora anyway. Same issue with Nagid. To all appearances Sheikh al Yahud is a religious leader. Rishon, from what I can find, also a religious leader. Not sure why I retained Hacham Bashi because there seems to be the same problem. And then it's the same from there out.
 * I still don't think that the sourcing to claim any kind of continuity that justifies putting David hamelech and David Ben-Gurion on the same list is present, but since others disagree, I think it's still important to do the best we can to find some sort of reasonable scope. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 02:23, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you. That type of explanation is very helpful. Either editors can agree, or attempt to disprove specific points/entries. I realize this is frustrating for you, but going through this exercise I believe will lead to better quality for this article. What d oyou mean from "the same from there out". All the remaining removals were also religious? Gaijin42 (talk) 02:35, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh - no, I meant that from there on my version and the previous version were the same, I hadn't removed anything else (council, PMs). –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 02:52, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I've sought help from WP:Third opinion, though since Dsilon isn't bothering to discuss his edits on the talkpage and hasn't been able to identify any problems with my edit other than "whoa, that was big and I didn't feel like reading it," I can only hope that a third opinion will end his edit-warring. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:17, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

3O Response: This article is flawed at the outset, and clarifying it will help in the discussion. The flaw? The title refers to the proper noun Land of Israel, but the first line (defining the article) refers to the modern state of Israel. You resolve this by making Land of Israel part of the parameter in the lede. (My gosh, Land of Israel is not even linked.) Once you properly make Land of Israel the geographic scope, you restrict the inclusions of names in this list to those notable names contained in the Land of Israel article or the various sub-articles mentioned in Land of Israel (for example: Kingdom of Israel (Samaria)). And since modern Israel is mentioned in Land of Israel, you can include modern names. But I recommend that other lists, such as List of Prime Ministers of Israel be used as hatnotes rather than duplicating such listings here. – S. Rich (talk) 18:30, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you clarify what you think the scope of the article should be? As you may have read above, the actual boundaries of Israel/Land of Israel formed only a small part of the confusion; larger problems were "is a leader in Israel a leader of Israel?" and "what is a leader?" I too think it unlikely that the article will ever be encyclopedic, but my proposal of "political leaders of a defined entity in Israel" was intended to bring it somewhat closer to that state. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 01:20, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The first line of the article gets changed to include the proper noun Land of Israel. That article, which covers the various Israeli areas throughout history, tells you what kingdoms, etc., had Jewish leaders. Those people, from those ancient and modern Israeli states, are the leaders you put into this list. Using the phrase "in the Land of Israel" requires these leaders to be physically in the various lands, and they can be various types of leaders (like temple, political, military, etc.). Don't change the article or its' title to "of the Land of Israel" because that phrase would restrict the names to the heads of state. – S. Rich (talk) 05:55, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * While I do think your suggestion of simply linking relevant lists is better than having the full WP:INDISCRIMINATE list here, I still have reservations about a scope that includes an "etc." What about a leader of an artistic movement who is Jewish and lives in Israel? Is a head of a political party who's never been the head of state or government (Tzipi Livni? Meir Kahane?) a "leader" for purposes of this list? Looking further back into history, is a religious philosopher whose writings/sayings were influential but who did not exercise any sort of direct authority over the mass of people (eg. Akiva) a "leader"?
 * Basically - I'm behind you in your first statement! (the various nations that were located in what is now Israel, who ran them). But then you say something which seems to contradict it - that any "leader" is within the scope of the list. Your first suggestion - that we use political leaders of specific nations/kingdoms/political entities - is better than your second. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 06:35, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Roscelese, your example of an artist as a leader is pushing the envelope beyond reasonable WP:Scope. Was Jimmy Dorsey a leader? Only in the sense that he lead big bands. We would not consider him as exercising leadership over people other than his band members. My point (above) is that if you can find RS that describes certain persons living in the historic Land of Israel as "leaders" (and they have an article), include them. For the modern politicians, place them in their own list articles. Kahane was a member of the Knesset, so he gets listed in a Knesset list. Livni gets listed in a politicians list. Is there too much controversy about these modern Jewish leaders? Split the baby and change the title article to "List of Jewish leaders in the ancient Land of Israel". – S. Rich (talk) 16:02, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, that's the question though - what the scope of the article should be. (For "artist," I was thinking more along the lines of Tzara as a leader of Dada, rather than a bandleader.) Your response to my mention of Kahane and Livni seems to suggest that political leaders who were not heads of state or government are also not within the scope of the list. Is what you're getting at a disambiguation page of things that people might be looking for when they come to a page on Jewish leaders in Israel? –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 03:23, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, besides changing the Land of Israel parameter in the first line, you should say heads of state and/or heads of government, rather than political leaders. Knesset members don't get included, or artists. Interestingly, "Jew" and "Judaism" are not mentioned in those articles.– S. Rich (talk) 11:42, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Which isn't surprising because non-Jews can and do serve in the Knesset! :) So "heads of state/govt. of a polity within the 'Land of Israel' geographic boundary"? –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 15:26, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * No need to say "of a polity" or "within the ... geographic boundary." Because Land of Israel self-defines as a polity and it has (and has had) geographic boundaries. – S. Rich (talk) 16:32, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I mean, I was unclear in my intention there (I was trying to make sure we were on the same page about the scope, not proposing wording for the lead), but I think we still could be clear in the text that these aren't all leaders of the Land of Israel (eg. a king of Judah). –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 13:34, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Article protected
This article has been protected from editing for one week to try to generate talk page discussion of the disputed content. Please follow the WP:BRD guideline. You may also wish to consider dispute resolution (WP:DR). Mark Arsten (talk) 04:27, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 9 August 2013
The following is a list of Jewish political leaders in what is now the State of Israel.

The Patriarchs

 * Abraham (Genesis Ch. 17)
 * Isaac (Genesis 20:12)
 * Jacob (Genesis 25:30-33)

In the Land of Goshen

 * Joseph (Genesis 41:40-45:12)
 * Ephraim (Genesis 48:13-20)

Even though the Bible does not mention it explicitly, perhaps it can be assumed that the following names, the descendants of Ephraim, led the Israelites in Egypt (Chronicles 7:20-21): Shutelah, Bered, Tahat, Eladah, Tahat, Zabad, Shutelah

The Sinai Period

 * Moses (Exodus 3:10-18)

The Judges

 * Joshua (Deut. 34:9)
 * Othniel (Judges 3:9)
 * Ehud (Judges 3:15)
 * Shamgar (Judges 3:31)
 * Deborah (Judges 4:4)
 * Gideon (Judges 6:14)
 * Abimelech (Judges 9:1-4)
 * Tola (Judges 10:1)
 * Yair (Judges 10:3)
 * Jephtah (Judges 11:5-11)
 * Ibzan (Judges 12:8)
 * Elon (Judges 12:11)
 * Abdon (Judges 12:13)
 * Samson (Judges 13:25)
 * Eli (I Samuel 1:9)
 * Samuel (I Samuel 7:3-6)

House of Saul

 * Saul (c. 1079 BC – 1007 BC)
 * Ishbosheth (II Samuel 2:8-9)

House of David

 * King David (II Samuel 5:3) c. 1004–970 BCE - who made Jerusalem the capital of the United Kingdom of Israel.
 * King Solomon (I Kings 2:12)
 * King Rehoboam (I Kings 11:43)

After Rehoboam reigned three years (1 Chronicles 11:17), the kingdom was divided in two - the northern kingdom of Israel under Jeroboam, with its capital, first in Shechem (Nablus), then Tirzah, and finally Samaria, and ruled by a series of dynasties beginning with Jeroboam; and the southern kingdom of Judah with its capital still at Jerusalem and still ruled by the House of David. The following list contains the kings of Judah with the kings of Israel in the summaries:


 * King Abijah (I Kings 14:31) c. 915 – 913 BCE
 * King Asa (I Kings 15:8) - under whose reign, the following were kings in Israel: *Nadab, Baasha, Elah, Zimri, Omri, and Ahab.
 * King Jehoshaphat (I Kings 15:24) - under whose reign, Ahaziah and Yehoram reigned in Israel.
 * King Yehoram ben Yehoshaphat (I Kings 22:50)
 * King Ahaziah ben Yehoram (II Kings 8:24) - under whose reign, Jehu ruled in Israel.
 * Queen Athaliah (II Kings 11:3) mother of Ahaziah
 * King Yehoash (II Kings 11:21) - son of Ahaziah, under whose reign, Yehoahaz and another Yehoash ruled in Israel.
 * King Amaziah (II Kings 14:1) - under whose reign, Jeroboam II ruled in Israel.
 * King Uzziah referred to as Azariah (II Kings 15:1) - under whose reign, the following ruled over Israel: Zachariah, Shallum, Menahem, Pekahiah, and Pekah.
 * King Yotam (II Kings 15:32)
 * King Ahaz (II Kings 16:1) - under whose reign, Hoshea ruled as the last king of Israel.
 * King Hezekiah (II Kings 18:1) - under his reign, the Assyrian Empire conquered and destroyed the northern kingdom 722 BCE leaving only the southern kingdom of Judah.
 * King Manasseh (II Kings 20:21)
 * King Amon (II Kings 21:18)
 * King Josiah (II Kings 21:26)
 * King Yehoahaz (II Kings 23:30) son of Josiah
 * King Yakim (II Kings 23:34) son of Josiah
 * King Yachin (II Kings 24:6) son of Jehoiakim
 * King Zedekiah (II Kings 24:17) - son of Josiah, last king to rule over, and in, Judah. Overthrown by Babylonia (which succeeded Assyria) and exiled, along with most of the rest of the population, to that kingdom, where he was executed.
 * Gedaliah (II Kings 25:22-23) son of Ahikam advisor to King Josiah; he became governor over the remnant of Judah in their homeland and was assassinated the next year.

House of David in the Babylonia Captivity

 * King Yachin (II Kings 25:27) son of Jehoiakim
 * Daniel of the House of David (Daniel 1:3-7, 5:29-6:2) under his rule, the Persians under King Darius conquered Babylonian Empire (including Judah, now known as Judea).

House of David after the Captivity

 * Sheshbazzar prince of the House of David (Ezra 1:8-11) In the first year of the reign of Cyrus, successor to Darius, the Jews were allowed to return to their homeland. Sheshbazzar led the first group of returnees and ruled in Judea for two years. The date is generally thought to have been between 538 and 520 BC. The House of David had survived, but struggled to reclaim its place as the ruling House of Israel.
 * Zerubbabel (Ezra 3:8) son of Shealtiel.
 * Ezra a descendant of the priest Aaron brother of Moses. (Ezra Ch. 7) He is said to have formed the Great Sanhedrin legislative body.
 * Nehemiah (Book of Nehemiah) arrived in Jerusalem in 445 as governor of Judah, appointed by Artaxerxes.
 * Hananiah (Nehemiah 7:2)

The High Priests of the House of Aaron
The High Priests had ruled Israel uninterruptedly since the time of Aaron the first priest. While Israel was still ruled by Persia, and after the death of Hananiah, apparently, the High Priests were the sole rulers of the people for a period of approximately 300 years. The following names and information were taken from the “Jewish Encyclopedia” (ed. Isidore Singer, 1905) under the section “High Priest” beginning with Jehoiada (#34) taking both columns into account, and from the chronological section of the “History of Israel Until 1880” (Keter Publishing House, 1971).


 * Jehoiada
 * Johanan
 * Jaddua during whose reign, Israel was conquered by the Greeks under Alexander the Great.
 * Onias I during whose reign, Israel was conquered by the Ptolemies of Egypt c. 301 BCE.
 * Simon the Just
 * Eleazar
 * Menasseh
 * Onias II during whose reign, Israel was briefly captured from Egypt by the Seleucids of Syria, but returned to Egyptian rule after only two years.
 * Simon II during whose reign, Israel returned to Syrian rule.
 * Onias III overthrown by Syria in favor of:
 * Jason
 * Menelaus who was overthrown by the Hasmoneans (called the Maccabbees) but the office of High Priest continued to function.

Hasmonean dynasty 168–37 BCE


The Maccabees founded the Hasmonean dynasty, which ruled from 168 BCE - 37 BCE, reasserting the Jewish religion and expanding the boundaries of the Land of Israel by conquest. In the post-Maccabean period the high priest was looked upon as exercising in all things, political, legal, and sacerdotal, the supreme authority.


 * Mattityahu - who began a war for independence.
 * Judah - during whose reign, Alcimus succeeded Menelaeus as high priest.
 * Jonathan - assumed the high priesthood.
 * Simon - succeeded his brother Jonathan as high priest and was also installed as ethnarch and commander-in-chief. Under his reign, Judea gained its independence.
 * John Hyrcanus I - also succeeded as high priest.
 * Aristobulus - also high priest.
 * Alexander Jannaeus - high priest and king.
 * Salome Alexandra
 * Hyrcanus II - succeeded Alexander as high priest beginning with the rule of Salome.
 * Aristobulus II - succeeded as high priest. During his reign, Judea lost its independence and passed under the rule of Rome (63 BCE) who overthrew him and reinstalled:
 * Hyrcanus II as high priest
 * Antigonus - also high priest

Herodian dynasty (37 BCE – 70 CE)



 * King Herod the Great
 * King Herod Archelaus (4 BCE – 6 CE), Ethnarch of the Tetrarchy of Judea

After Archelaus and during the intervening period, the Sanhedrin, founded by Ezra, became the sole rulers of the Jewish people in Judea in conjunction with the High Priest. The heads, or nesiim, of the Sanhedrin beginning in 20 BCE, was Hillel the Elder, his son Shimon, and his son Gamaliel I whose rule extended into the reign of :


 * King Agrippa I (41–44)
 * King Herod II (44–48)
 * King Agrippa II (48–73). In 66 CE, the great revolt began against Rome, resulting in the Zealot Temple Siege and culminating in the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 CE, the abolition of the High Priesthood, and the final defeat at Massada in 73. Agrippa II was exiled to Rome during the revolt where he died.

Continuation of the Sanhedrin under the House of David (73-429 CE)
The Sanhedrin continued to rule even after the destruction of the Second Temple until about 429 CE. Being a member of the house of Hillel and thus a descendant of King David, the Patriarch, known in Hebrew as the Nasi (prince), enjoyed almost royal authority.


 * Yohanan ben Zakkai (70-?) moved the Sanhedrin to Yavne
 * Gamaliel II of Jamnia (80–115)
 * Eleazar ben Azariah (115–120)
 * Interregnum (Bar Kokhba revolt) (132–135)


 * Judah bar Ilai c. 140 moved the Sanhedrin to Usha
 * Shimon ben Gamliel II
 * Judah I haNasi (170-220) - ruled from Bet Shearim, then Sepphoris
 * Gamaliel III (220–230)
 * Judah II (230–270) - ruled from Sepphoris, then Tiberias. This was the Sanhedrin’s last move.
 * Gamaliel IV (270–290)
 * Judah III (290–320)
 * Hillel II (320–365) (320 is given as the traditional date for the codification of the "Palestinian" Talmud)
 * Gamliel V (365–385)
 * Judah IV (385–400) – in 395, the Roman Empire split into east and west and Palestine passed under the eastern Byzantine Empire.
 * Gamaliel VI (400–425). On 17 October 415, an edict issued by the Emperors Honorius and Theodosius II deposed Gamaliel VI as nasi. Theodosius did not allow the appointment of a successor and in 429 terminated the Jewish patriarchate.

===The Sanhedrin in Secret ===

After the Byzantine authorities overthrew Gamaliel VI, the Sanhedrin struggled to continue to function secretly. But it wasn’t until 520 that it, again, rested on a sound foundation with the coming of:


 * Mar Zutra III/II (b. Babylonia (Iraq)), son of the exilarch Mar Zutra I who was killed in battle against the Persians. He was accepted as Nasi of the Sanhedrin at Tiberias, and, founded a new dynasty, which was a branch of the House of David. He was the father of:
 * Saadia (545-600)
 * Guriya (600-625), his son, during his reign, the Persians conquered Palestine (614), aided by the Jews under Benjamin of Tiberias, and established Jewish autonomy in Jerusalem under Nehemiah ben Hushiel, the son of the exilarch in Babylonia. In 617, the Persians betrayed the Jews and overthrew Nehemiah, but they continued to be under the military leadership of Benjamin.
 * Mar Zutra (625-650) his son; in 628, the Byzantines reconquered Palestine which was conquered, in turn, by the Arabs (636).
 * Yakov his son
 * Shemaiah his son
 * Haninai (c. 750) his son;

Karaite Patriarchate of the House of David

 * Anan ben David (b. Babylonia (Iraq)) son of the Babylonian Exilarch, founded the Karaite movement in Judaism which rejects the teachings of the Talmud, settled in Jerusalem with some of his followers where he styled himself and his descendants as Patriarchs of Israel, raising the ire of the Sanhedrin in Tiberias. He ruled from 767-800.
 * Saul
 * Josiah
 * Moses (head of academy?)
 * Meir I (head of the academy?)
 * Ẓemaḥ (884-915) who served as head of the academy was a fourth-generation descendant of Anan b. David. He held the title of Nasi and Gaon.

Geon Yaacov of the House of David

 * Aaron Ben Meir (915-932) succeeded in deposing Anan's family only after a bitter struggle in which he was assisted by the scholars and heads of the academically superior Baghdad community.
 * Isaac (932) son of Aaron b. Meir
 * …ben meir (934-948) brother of Aaron b. Meir
 * Abraham (948-955) son of Aaron b. Meir
 * Aaron (955) son of Abraham
 * Joseph ha-Kohen b. Ezron (956-958)
 * … (958-988), in 969, the Arab Fatimids conquered Palestine
 * Samuel (988-?) Son of Joseph ha-Kohen b. Ezron
 * Yose, son of Samuel
 * Shemaiah
 * Josiah (1015) son of Aaron, member of the great synagogue, lived in Ramle
 * Solomon (1020-1025) son of Joseph ha-Kohen b. Ezron
 * Solomon b. Judah (1025-1051), b. Fez, Morocco, son-in-law of his predecessor.
 * Daniel b. Azariah (1051-1062), b. Babylonia (Iraq), a descendant of one of the families of the exilarchate in Babylonia, usurped the Geonate and styled himself as Nasi and Gaon.
 * Elijah (1062-1083) son of Solomon b. Joseph ha-Kohen.

Geon Yaacov in Exile
In 1077, the Seljuk Turks conquered Palestine and much of the rest of the Middle East from the Arabs. Elijah, therefore, moved Geon Yaacov to Tyre, which was subject to Fatimid rule. He appointed Solomon ha-Nasi to head the remaining Geonate in Jerusalem. Elijah’s son:


 * Abiathar headed the Tyre academy (1083-1129). In 1093, Abiathar’s brother Solomon fled to Hadrak (near Damascus) because of the decrees of David b. Daniel b. Azariah, head of Egyptian Jewry. In Hadrak he assembled the survivors of the Ereẓ Israel academy which he headed (1093-1127). In 1099, the Crusaders conquered Palestine and in 1124, they conquered Tyre, whereupon Abiathar moved the academy to Tripoli where he died before 1130. Solomon’s son:


 * Maẓliaḥ moved from Hadrak to Fostat and called himself rosh yeshivat ge'on Ya'akov and held that title from 1127-1138.
 * Avraham ben Matzhir (1127-1165) grandson of Abiathar headed the academy when it moved from Hadrak to Damascus. In 1156, a certain Petrus Judaeus swore allegiance to the Crusader King Baldwin III in Jerusalem.
 * Either Moses ha-Levi b. Nethanel or Samuel b. Hananiah ruled from Fostat after the death of Mazliah (1138-1160)
 * Nethanel (1160-1170) son of Moses ha-Levi b. Nethanel, held the title of Gaon in Fostat.
 * Ezra (1165), son of Avraham ben Matzhir and ordained by the Gaon of Baghdad Samuel ben Ali. He ruled from Damascus.
 * Zadok ruled from Damascus.
 * Sar Shalom (1170-1195) brother of Nethanel, held title of Gaon in Fostat and sometimes called himself rosh yeshivat Ereẓ ha-Ẓevi. In 1187, Palestine was conquered by the Ayyubids under Saladin. Shortly thereafter, the rabbis of Egypt appointed a Vice-Nagid to oversee Palestinian affairs. The first of whom there is record is one Ovadiah ben Ulah With the death of Sar Shalom, the gaonate in Egypt ceased to exist as did the gaonate in Damascus when Zadok was overthrown by the rabbinic authorities.

The Nagid of Egypt and consolidation
The office of Nagid goes back to the 10th century. It was the highest office among the Jews of Egypt. After the end of the geonic rule from Fostat and Damascus in 1195, the Nagid took over leadership of Palestine as well beginning with:


 * Maimonides (the "Rambam", b. Spain) (1171/1195-1204)
 * Avraham ben Moshe, (1204-1237), son of Maimonides; Hillel ben Moshe was appointed Vice-Nagid in Jerusalem. In 1228, Jerusalem passed over to Christian rule.
 * David ben Avraham, (1237-1300), son of Avraham ben Moshe; in 1240, Palestine came under Muslim rule, then Christian rule (1243), Khwarizmian rule (1244), Ayyubid reconquest (1247), and shared Egyptian Mameluke/Crusader rule (1250). In 1257, Yehiel ben Yosef (b. France) established the Midrash ha-Gadol d’Parisi in Acre from where he ruled over Israel. In 1260, the Mongols invaded and occupied Palestine until 1263 when they were defeated by the Mamelukes. In 1267, Nahmanides (the "Ramban", b. Spain) came to Jerusalem and established his own synagogue from where he, and subsequent Chief Rabbis ruled Israel for over 300 years. He was succeeded in 1270 by Solomon Petit (b. France). In 1291, total Mameluke rule was established over Egypt and Palestine. In that year, Avraham ben David became co-Nagid along with his father David ben Avraham, and continued to rule after his father’s death along with his sons Moshe ben Avraham until 1305, and Yehoshua afterwards. It is possible that Baruch Ashkenazi (b. Spain) was Chief Rabbi in Jerusalem during this time. Avraham ruled until 1313; Baruch was succeeded by Isaac Hatikvah (b. Spain) c. 1330 ; Yehoshua ruled until 1355.
 * David ben Yehoshua son of Yehoshua (1355-1374)
 * Amram (1374-1384); in Jerusalem was Yoseph ben Eliezer Tov Elem (b. Syria)
 * Shimon (1384-1422)
 * Yoseph ben Ovadiah (1422-1430)
 * Abd al Latif (1430-1442); Elijah of Ferrara (b. Italy) ruled from Jerusalem 1435.
 * Yoseph ben Khalifah (1442-1465); Abraham Halevy (b. Spain) ruled from Jerusalem.
 * Shlomo ben Yoseph son of Yoseph ben Khalifah (1465-1482); Shalom Ashkenazi (b. Spain) ruled from Jerusalem.
 * Natan Sholal (1482-1504); Obadiah of Bertinoro (b. Italy) ruled from Jerusalem (1488-1490), then became Chief Rabbi of Hebron and was succeeded in Jerusalem by Isaac ibn Haim (b. Spain) (1490-1495) . Obadiah of Bertinoro returned to Jerusalem and resumed his position (1495-1500?)
 * Isaac Sholal (b. Egypt) (1502-1516) nephew of Natan Sholal; Jacob de Trijal (b. Spain) ruled from Jerusalem (1500-1502), succeeded by Judah Albotini (b. Turkey) (1502-1516)

Sheikh al Yahud (1516-1665)
In 1516, the Ottoman conquest of Palestine and Egypt led to the abolition of the office of Nagid. Therefore, Isaac Sholal moved to Jerusalem and succeeded Albotini, holding the title of Sheikh al Yahud (1516-1525), thus making Palestinian Jewry independent of Egyptian Jewry.


 * Levi ben Habib (b. Spain) (1525-1553) ; Jacob Berab (b. Spain) established a rival Beth Din in Safed from where he ruled (1538-1540) until overthrown by ibn Habib. He was succeeded in Safed by Joseph Caro (b. Spain) (1540-1575). After Caro, Safed gradually declined in importance.
 * David ibn Abi Zimra (b. Egypt) (1553-1567)
 * Yoseph Sayach
 * Haim Vital (1584-1586) ; in 1586 the Arabs confiscated the Ramban Synagogue. Therefore, it was decided that the Ben Zakkai Synagogue would takes its place. Ever since, this is from where the Chief Rabbi would preside.
 * Bezalel Ashkenazi (1586-1592)
 * Gedaliah Cordovero (1592-1625)
 * Isaac Gaon?
 * Israel Benjamin
 * Jacob Zemah (b. Portugal) (1645-1663)
 * Samuel Garmison (b. Greece) (1663-1665)

Rishon l’Tzion (1665-1842)

 * Moses ben Avraham Galante (1665–1689)
 * Moses ben Habib (b. Greece) (1689–1695)
 * Moses Hayun (1695–1715)
 * Avraham ben David Yitzchaki (b. Greece) (1715–1728)
 * Benjamin Hacohen Ma'ali (1728–1730)
 * Eliezer ben Jacob Nachum (b. Turkey) (1730–1745)
 * Nissim Chaim Moses Mizrachi (1745–1754)
 * Isaac Rapaport ((1754–1755)
 * Israel Jacob Algazi (b. Turkey) (1755–1756)
 * Raphael Samuel Meyuchas (1756–1771)
 * Chaim Raphael Abraham Ben Asher (1771–1772)
 * Yom Tov Algazi (b. Turkey) (1772–1802); Napoleon’s invasion (1799)
 * Moses Joseph Mordechai Meyuchas (1802–1806)
 * Jacob Moses Ayash al-Maghrebi (b. Morocco) (1806–1807)
 * Jacob Koral (1807–1813)
 * Raphael Joseph Hazan (b. Turkey) (1813–1822)
 * Yom Tov Danon (b. Turkey) (1822–1824)
 * Solomon Moses Suzin (1824–1836); Egyptian conquest (1831)
 * Jonah Moses Navon (1836–1841); Ottoman reconquest (1840)
 * Judah Raphael Navon (1841–1842)

Dsilon (talk) 04:48, 9 August 2013 (UTC)Dsilon

I request the entire article be edited up to the section "Haham Bashi 1842-1917". From the "Haham Bashi" section onward, I don't have a problem. This edit request shows the article as it was originally. It seems that some people like to delete, or even rewrite, whole chunks of the history of certain subjects, and for the most nonsensical of reasons. On the other hand, history buffs such as myself, don't appreciate that and feel that every section is important.


 * You're going to need a better reason than WP:ILIKEIT. I know you're the creator of this page; if you just created it out of personal interest, consider using one of the many free hosting sites available on the internet, since Wikipedia is meant as an encyclopedia on specific topics, not random collections of information that users find interesting. I've explained in detail above that this page can't exist as an indiscriminate collection of links and that it needs a scope, which the removed entries did not conform to. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 05:06, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. -- Red rose64 (talk) 07:27, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

President or prime minister
I think that it's the presidents who should be listed here; not the prime ministers. It is the president, like a king, as the head of state; who is the leader of the land. The prime minister is only the leader of the government. I also think that Moses and the judges, as the leaders before House of Saul, should be listed here. Karriuss (talk) 23:58, 30 January 2015 (UTC)


 * I'll pass on the other questions, as I think I've made my position on the article scope clear, but I do have to point out that the fact that Moses was not in Israel is kind of a major point of his story. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 02:07, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Shealtiel
How can we resolve these issues and make the needed improvements?:


 * In the Book of Haggai, Shealtiel is the father of Zerubbabel.
 * In the Gospel of Matthew, Jeconiah is the father of Shealtiel.

This confusion is:


 * Preventing the Template:Infobox_officeholder from entering the Shealtiel page


 * Preventing Shealtiel from entering List of Jewish leaders in the Land of Israel


 * Preventing this footer from certain pages:

Twillisjr (talk) 16:44, 23 September 2016 (UTC)