Talk:List of association footballers who died after on-field incidents

Haven't You Missed One?
I can't find JOHN WHITE (1937 - 1964), the Spurs star who was struck by lightning while sheltering under a tree on a golf course during a storm. ?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.36.130.231 (talk) 04:58, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Matthias Sindelar
I know there's controversy over his exact cause of death, but he was still an active player when he died, so I'm sure he should be on here--2A00:23C4:8D48:1:C1CD:685F:6DD9:F562 (talk) 15:38, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Deletion
Could we not keep this article as, although there is a category which covers deaths, it does not provide the details or deaths of said players GiantSnowman 11:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


 * it's also very lacking in numbers. this article right now is so I'm complete, it should be unpublished till there is a rewrite to add more than just the people. Tecardo (talk) 08:58, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Requested move
Footballers who died while playing → List of footballers who died while playing — For the simple reason that this is more of a list that an standalone article —Willirennen 13:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.


 * Support Or a similar title with "List of..." -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 21:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Support. Except that "footballers" is confusing for Americans. --woggly 13:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Not really. Americans always call people who play American football "football players", never "footballers". Dekimasu よ! 14:17, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 06:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Referencing
I propose that we remove all players who lack a reference which indicated that they actually died while playing - people's thoughts? If there is no reply in the next few days I shall be bold and go ahead and remove said players. GiantSnowman (talk) 00:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Football related Death
This article should be renamed to "Football Related Deaths" because almost all of these did NOT die on the pitch. For example, Antonio Puerta, Marc Vivian Foe and Fehér all died in hospital, not on the pitch. This should be addressed and updated. (DipSetGeezer (talk) 11:13, 27 August 2008 (UTC))

It says in the opening line, 'The following is a list of football players who have died whilst playing a game, or died from injuries sustained while playing.' Name of the page probably could do with a change though. It currently is a little bit misleading. 62.249.237.223 (talk) 18:11, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd disagree, the title is fine as it IS a list of player who died while on the pitch. GiantSnowman 12:51, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

But mainly those that died as a result of injuries sustained on the pitch. Very few actually died on the pitch, probably none were actually pronounced there. 62.249.237.223 (talk) 21:15, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter WHERE they died, but HOW they died - due to injuries sustained while playing. GiantSnowman 10:51, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Very shocking facts... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.188.253.131 (talk) 14:18, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Is it me or...
Most soccer players who died during a game were seemingly really weak (no offense to them or their families) or had bad hearts. I mean, they get hit with the ball and it eventually turns into an infection? How the hell is that even possible?

Not to mention most of these deaths were heart-related. They should have had doctor clearance before playing. I'm sure other leagues around the world do it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.42.19.3 (talk) 06:49, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * FIFA, the governing board of football, has started to introduce heart testing I think, especially for young players. GiantSnowman 09:21, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Marvin Lee
Thought I'd bring him up, as he is a borderline case. He was paralyzed from the neck down after ramming his head into another player (Landon Donovan, actually) in a challenge in a youth match between Trinidad and Tobago and the USA. He died about a year later, apparently from complications of his paralysis (stopped breathing). 174.111.116.162 (talk) 00:58, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Arrogant move based on ignorance
The reason for the move just done on this article was "While there are at least six other competitions called football, this is the only one which refers to them as footballers. Every other one is football players."

Sorry. Wrong.

I don't even feel like explaining, Why should I? the person who performed this move did not discuss or suggest it here, and is clearly not interested in facts. But just in case some readers are, players of all four codes of football played professionally in Australia are know as footballers.

It MUST be moved back.

I'll give this 24 hours (unlike the original mover, who allowed NO discussion), then move it back, unless convinced otherwise.

HiLo48 (talk) 11:24, 2 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree, the move was clearly wrong, I have reverted it. If the editor wishes, I'm happy to discuss here.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 16:08, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Concur. there has been a lot of movement recently, particularly in categories but also in other spheres, in regards to clarifying footballers on the basis that "footballer" alone means different things in different places. Notwithstanding guidelines that say use the short version where no confusion exists, there can be confusion in this instance and "association footballers" precisely confines the content to what is intended by this page.-- Club Oranje T 00:50, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

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Heart Failure - Malapropism
Many players have cause of death labelled as Heart Failure. Heart Failure is a long term degenerative disease where the heart becomes less and less effective over a long period of time. It is highly unlikely any of these footballers died of heart failure. They would have had to have given up their careers many years beforehand.

Ricky Yacobi?
Does Ricky Yacobi belong on this list. He was a retired footballer from Indonesia who sadley died yesterday after suffering a heart attack while playing football with several former national team players and journalists. Since it was not a professional game I did not know if the article qualified to be in the list. Inter&#38;anthro (talk) 23:32, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I would say include him. GiantSnowman 08:24, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Abdul Rahman Atef
The cause of death for this player is listed as "swallowing his tongue" which, I confirmed, is listed on the cited source. However, a quick google search shows a plurality of trusted medical websites saying such a thing is not possible. See e.g.: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33080482/ (This section initiated 20:56, 12 June 2021 by a user at 77.1.188.167 -manually identified by Yadsalohcin (talk) 23:37, 23 December 2021 (UTC))


 * There is now a 'trans-title' for the reference, which backs up the 'tongue' business; google translate gives the following for the first 2 paras of the body of the source:


 * "The 23-year-old player, Abdel Rahman Atef Abdel Hamid, son of the Abu Hammad Center, the player of the channels team, died a short while ago, inside the Health Insurance Hospital in the Tenth of Ramadan City in Sharqia, after he swallowed his tongue during the match of his team “Al Qunayat” against the “Al Rowad” club, in the first division competitions. The third on the tenth of Ramadan.


 * "Major General Ibrahim Abdel Ghaffar, Director of Sharkia Security, received a notification from Major General Ayman Matar Hakmadar, Division of the South and Tenth of Ramadan, of the player's arrival at the Health Insurance Hospital in the Tenth of Ramadan City in the Eastern Province, and he died during his rescue operation."


 * A (further) quick search reveals that the term is used frequently in a colloquial sense to convey 'obstruction of the airway by unconsciously uncontrolled sagging of the tongue', even tho' strictly swallowing the tongue is impossible. See here: "A human being cannot swallow their tongue. If you were knocked out, there is a real danger of your airway becoming blocked. This may be caused by your tongue. But you don’t actually swallow it, it just moves to the back of your throat. This potentially blocks your airway... In unconsciousness the tongue can fall back, and the structures of the soft palate relax, blocking the airway. This is especially likely if the casualty is on their back." Yadsalohcin (talk) 18:19, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 June 2021
Add this line:

Name: Miklos Feher Nationality: Hungary Age: 24 Club: Benfica Club nation: Portugal Cause of death: Heart Attack MatthewDooley6 (talk) 21:39, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Feher is there already. ◢  Ganbaruby!   (talk) 22:56, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Eriksen
Even though Eriksen survived his collapse against Finland, Denmark's physician confirmed that his pulse had stopped for a few minutes so I'm adding him anyway.

Should list be renamed to "during their careers" to match parent article Sportspeople who died during their careers
Just noting several players: 1. Didn't die in game. 2. Didn't die due to the game itself, or injuries thereof. 3. There has been an increase in instances (even if only an instance of reported instances) of collapses in training or similar outside of the game - but related. Is this strictly professional or amateurs included (which can cause obvious increase in numbers and speculation etc). We should also almost certainly link to Sudden cardiac death of athletes. Koncorde (talk) 13:48, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

deletion of this article cause of incompletnes
this article is clearly lacking right now in every possible way. I would suggest unpublishing it, till the data is more complete or there is a paragraph added for additional numbers found. Tecardo (talk) 09:03, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Consider who will be editing this
Compare this page to 2020 and there are a number of additions in years prior to 2021 to include amateur / training related deaths. Why did this occur? Because recent news articles have linked 2021 deaths of sports athletes to this page suggesting they are the result of vaccine injury. So Pfizer has in all likelihood hired PR representatives to bump up the deaths of previous years. Now the quality of the article is low Pfizer will probably ask it to be scrapped entirely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.199.227.97 (talk) 23:56, 7 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Pretty wild conspiracy, that. 82.132.219.201 (talk) 17:40, 8 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Now look at the list of 2021 deaths. Their notability is also comparably low. The addition to previous years is to keep up the same standards that were set by hysterical media in 2021. 93.103.223.236 (talk) 13:15, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Proposal to remove bar chart
As the article clearly states: "The following is an incomplete list of association footballers who died while playing". With the incomplete in mind, it is meaningless to present a bar chart which reflects little more than the relative levels of archiving for each year. The FIFA Sudden Death Report suggests that during 2014-2018 there were typically 150 deaths per year, while the chart shows an average circa 10 in these years; the maximum shown on this bar chart is 21 in 2021. I propose to remove this bar chart, as the apparent spike in 2021 is clearly a function mainly of reporting, and not necessarily actual numbers of deaths. Yadsalohcin (talk) 22:40, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * No complaints here; was a very odd inclusion. Seasider53 (talk) 11:43, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Was the page move discussed?
See title. Seasider53 (talk) 15:44, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Typo in page title
"associaton" should probably be association...

Not sure how to change that though. 76.67.177.112 (talk) 02:52, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Err… Seasider53 (talk) 05:10, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Deaths during British Army Cup Final
Something for those with access to better sources to look up. I lately read that a post WWII Army Cup Final took place in presence of King Geoge VI (so pre 1952) at which a thunderbolt killed two of the players on the field. I read of this in a Shrewsbury Town-related book Meadow Meastros & Misfits, that one of the surviving players joined Town after release from the army but intriguingly it omits the date of that cup final.Cloptonson (talk) 06:29, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Separate pages?
Should there be separate pages for deaths associated with playing on the pitch itself rather than incidental deaths like car accidents? It's getting somewhat unwieldy at the moment. In Vitrio (talk) 14:57, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree. --Mishary94 (talk) 00:55, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 3 January 2024

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Rough consensus that the current title is inaccurate, as the scope is narrower than "players who died during their careers".

No clear consensus on where to move the article to, but the option with the most support appears to be List of association footballers who died after on-field incidents and so per WP:NOGOODOPTIONS I am moving this there.

Editors who disagree with that title should feel free to open a new move request at any time. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 09:04, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

List of association football players who died during their careers → List of association footballers who died while playing – This list was moved without discussion on 7 January 2023. However, the result of discussion at Articles for deletion/List of association footballers who died during their careers (a very similar title) was that such overarching lists violate WP:NOTMEMORIAL and WP:NLIST. I request that this list be moved back to the previous title. — Jkudlick &#x2693; (talk) 21:38, 3 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans  06:32, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. — Jkudlick &#x2693; (talk) 21:38, 3 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose That may have been me who moved the page a year ago. I certainly thought about doing it. Every time I saw the term "while playing", I felt it meant they died while actually playing a game. And that was presumably not the intended meaning. The meaning may vary around the English speaking world, but that's what it seemed like to me. If there is a problem with the current name as described above, I'd be happy with something different, but not "while playing". HiLo48 (talk) 00:33, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * It was not you who made the move, but I am not opposed to a different page name given that some of these players died during training or in hospital after on-pitch incidents. Perhaps "List of association footballers who died after on-field incidents"? — Jkudlick &#x2693; (talk) 02:41, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * But that would exclude those who did die during a game. HiLo48 (talk) 04:53, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I can see how my proposal could be interpreted that way. Perhaps "List of association footballers who died due to on-field incidents" is more precise? — Jkudlick &#x2693; (talk) 16:12, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The more I look at the article, the more confused I become. Have a look at the wording immediately under the heading List of players who died. In the space of three sentences, it says it's a "list of association footballers who died while on the pitch", then "who died during matches or training", then "Death may occur immediately or several days after the injury or fall". Then, among some of the more recent entries in the list we have "Died...while on vacation with his partner; he reportedly drowned in a swimming pool", and "Died after suffering a headache following a game". A lot of the entries involve people dying some days after a match. Seems we need to more explicitly define what this list actually is. HiLo48 (talk) 03:35, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I will go through the list to prune things that did not happen on the pitch. Those were obviously added at some point without anyone checking to make sure they were in the correct sections extant at the time. We are all free to edit the list for accuracy.
 * Frankly, I have tried to WP:AGF but I feel like your entire argument at this point is WP:IDONTLIKEIT because you have not offered any constructive compromise. — Jkudlick &#x2693; (talk) 13:37, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but I simply don;t know what the list is mean to contain. Do you? HiLo48 (talk) 21:41, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Did you read the AfD I referenced? I am trying to return this list to the level of notability extant at the time of that discussion. — Jkudlick &#x2693; (talk) 04:04, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Support - to match the original cope of the aricle - which I created back in 2006, and which dealt specifically with footballers who died whilst actually playing. The scope should be cut back to that and article re-named accordingly. GiantSnowman 14:32, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * So does that explicitly exclude someone who suffers a fatal injury during a game and then dies a week later? HiLo48 (talk) 02:05, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
 * , of course not. But it excludes players who e.g. die of cancer or in a car crash whilst still having an active career.o GiantSnowman 19:49, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
 * So it's NOT specifically about footballers who died whilst actually playing? They can die later? How much later? Who decides? HiLo48 (talk) 02:33, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * If it is directly related to an on-pitch incident and confirmed as such in reliable sources, then they will be included. This is not unlike counting people who incur severe injuries during a vehicle, train, or aircraft accident, or even during natural disasters, but die several days later amongst the fatalities. The concept really should not be that difficult to comprehend. — Jkudlick &#x2693; (talk) 04:53, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Somebody doesn't have to die on a battlefield to have died in a war; there was a 97th victim of the Hillsborough disaster who died 32 years after the event; these people who died in hospital 12 days after the event are still said to have died in the helicopter crash. There is no difference whether a player who collapses on the pitch dies on the pitch, at the sidelines, on the way to hospital, or at hospital. This is basic logic and your lame attempt to argument otherwise is one of the weakest I have ever seen. GiantSnowman 20:25, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Please drop the insults. While what is now being written is quite clear, some of the earlier comments were very unclear. I am pleased with where this discussion has gone. But we still need to be careful with the name of the article. Perhaps "Players who died because of incidents while playing". HiLo48 (talk) 02:50, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
 * No insults, and that is a far clunkier name. GiantSnowman 11:26, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
 * No insults? I'm trying to work out how "This is basic logic and your lame attempt to argument otherwise is one of the weakest I have ever seen" is a compliment. HiLo48 (talk) 03:18, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I suggested List of association footballers who died after on-field incidents previously. This would also cover players who died during training, not just during matches. — Jkudlick &#x2693; (talk) 16:32, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I'd be OK with that. GiantSnowman 22:05, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Relisting comment: A consensus is yet to form; relisting. Reading Beans  06:32, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: WikiProject Football has been notified of this discussion. Reading Beans  06:33, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: WikiProject Death has been notified of this discussion. Reading Beans  06:34, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: WikiProject Lists has been notified of this discussion. Reading Beans  06:34, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Delete it we deleted this article two years ago, and this article has all the same issues for why the last one was deleted. A change of name doesn't change that. Joseph2302 (talk) 11:29, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
 * This list has existed for 17 years and was moved to this title without discussion. Please re-read my nomination statement. — Jkudlick &#x2693; (talk) 14:18, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
 * And it is basically the same article that was deleted 2 years ago with this current article title name. Joseph<b style="color:#000000">2302</b> (talk) 21:44, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Take to WP:AFD. You will note comments at the AFD that indicate the article at this current title was separate to the article about footballers dying during/following a game. GiantSnowman 15:41, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * In which case, I support the move, as long as the scope is kept as that. And we should probably also remove all the non-notable people, as per WP:NOTMEMORIAL. Non-notable people, particularly those playing for non-notable local teams, should not be listed, so I would prefer adding "notable" to the article title and trimming it to only independently notable people who died whilst playing. <b style="color:#0033ab">Joseph</b><b style="color:#000000">2302</b> (talk) 12:18, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

The name. STILL!!!!
OK. We now have a closed discussion, and a unilateral move to a different, undiscussed name, about people who "died after on-field incidents". The list includes a lot of people described as having died after something happened during training. That is not generally understood as being on-field. It could have been anywhere! On a training run. In a swimming pool. In a gym.... And what do we do with someone described as having "Died after suffering a headache following a game"? HiLo48 (talk) 23:12, 27 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Relax. First, this was NOT a unilateral move; this was a move after discussion, albeit with light participation, and your participation pretty much amounted to "I don't like it." If you wish for the article to be titled something else, you may begin another RM discussion. Second, what leads you to believe that other editors are not working behind the scenes to bring the scope of the list in line with the title? Editing is a process and is not instantaneous. — Jkudlick &#x2693; (talk) 23:53, 27 January 2024 (UTC)


 * The new name was NOT the proposed name in the discussion above! Insulting me is not going to convince me I don't have a point. I see no evidence that other editors are working behind the scenes to bring the scope of the list in line with the title. Even if they are, it doesn't address my question about training incidents. HiLo48 (talk) 03:21, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
 * It may not have been the initially proposed name, but after you said "No" a number of times to other names I proposed, two other editors agreed with the last name I proposed. Again, NOT unilateral. Any on-field incident, whether during a match or during training, resulting in the death of a notable footballer is eligible for inclusion. If the incident did not occur on-field, e.g. in a swimming pool, then it is not eligible. If you were insulted by me pointing out facts of the discussion, then I can't do anything about that. WP:ANI is over there if you truly feel that strongly about it. — Jkudlick &#x2693; (talk) 16:41, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Inclusion of non-notable players
Should this list really include clearly non-notable players, like the tonnes of British players who were playing in local league matches, and the lots of players who were playing for teams that are so local that they aren't notable for a team article? Listing them here looks like it violates WP:NOTMEMORIAL for anyone who wasn't a notable person prior to their death. I would support the removal of all clearly non-notable players i.e. where they don't have an article and they don't demonstrate that they could meet WP:GNG and thus have an article created and kept under the current Wikipedia guidelines. Thoughts? <b style="color:#0033ab">Joseph</b><b style="color:#000000">2302</b> (talk) 14:25, 14 February 2024 (UTC)


 * I think we would have to determine first up to which league level should be included. Definitely should be national-level championships at the very minimum. Borgenland (talk) 14:39, 14 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Maybe not so much non-notable players - after all an early death either a) might stop them from being notable or b) would make them notable of itself - but those who played for, or against, clubs which do not have a wikipedia entry? To be frank I'm in favour of continued inclusion, given that instances are (thankfully) rare enough to warrant notifying. In Vitrio (talk) 20:32, 20 February 2024 (UTC)