Talk:List of earthquakes in the British Isles

Joke
Is this article a joke. Most countries do not list any earthquake under 7 magnitude. Why is there even a list of these pathetic non events. It is an insult to countries like Japan, Portugal, China and Chile that have serious earthquakes. Wallie (talk) 10:08, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * No it's not a joke. A list of Earthquakes in a country which is not tectonically active could never compare to those on major fault lines and seismic zones such as Japan, China, Portugal and Chile. In the UK an earthquake that could be felt is significant and notable enough to be demonstrated in an Encyclopaedic list of events. JonEastham (talk) 15:06, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I was just looking at information on "All Saints Church, West Stourmouth" and see that it was also damaged in the 1382 earthquake, Thought you might like to add it to your list.

Also to the enlightened Wallie, the Christchurch Earthquake would not have been recorded using his lower limit of 7. It caused significant death and destruction.

OldManwoodian (talk) 20:12, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Format
Table is not sortable due to format of date and magnitude fields. Drutt (talk) 10:36, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Now sortable JonEastham (talk) 15:13, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Still seems to not sort properly - it's done alphabeticly due to the date being in text format? I have no idea how to change this however 81.109.175.173 (talk) 00:24, 15 March 2011 (UTC)


 * See Sortable_table Good luck. :-) Longwayround (talk) 10:26, 8 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I've made the first two tables sortable by date. The dates must be in the format DD-MMM-YYYY (e.g. 21 Feb 1673).
 * Where no DD and MMM is known, please use 00 Jan 974.
 * Where no DD is known, please use 00 Jan 974
 * If someone could please have a look at why the year 1750 does not sort correctly, I should be grateful. Longwayround (talk) 11:11, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Unsourced quakes
It is unclear to which of the earthquakes any of the cited sources refer. I am inclined to be bold and remove the unreferenced quakes while also marking more clearly as one source. Longwayround (talk) 08:54, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Done. Unless I'm very much mistaken we have cited sources for all the earthquakes. I have removed mention of the 1249 South Wales earthquake since: "The earthquake of 20 February 1247 is mentioned by both the Annals of Inisfallen (Färber, 2000a) and the fragmentary annals (Färber, 2000b). The former misdates the year as 1249 and states that it was felt in Ireland and Wales; the latter describes it as affecting Ireland, Scotland and Wales." Longwayround (talk) 10:22, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Notable earthquakes
This list states that it is a list of notable earthquakes. As far as I can see, it includes any record of an earthquake that has been felt and that definitely doesn't match any reasonable definition of notability on Wikipedia - see WikiProject_Earthquakes/notability_guidelines. According to Manual_of_Style/Stand-alone_lists members of a list would normally be existing articles or articles that could be created. It also discusses Short, complete lists of every item that is verifiably a member of the group, but says that these should be within an article and be less than 32K in size - the article is currently 55K. The article is undoubtedly as complete as it could be and thoroughly sourced, but I question whether we should have earthquakes of magnitude less than five in the list. Mikenorton (talk) 15:51, 3 May 2015 (UTC)


 * There's been no response for the last 10 months, so I'm starting the cull, with the smallest first. - I will report here on progress. Mikenorton (talk) 18:06, 8 March 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure deleting earthquakes purely based on magnitude is the best approach. There are quite a few significant ones with a magnitude less than 5. I would propose retaining events where damage or injury is recorded, regardless of magnitude. Such events tend to have significant coverage so as to meet WP:GNG e.g. 1. I will start adding in sources and deleting those which don't appear notable. I will keep everything with magnitude 4+ for the time being. I would say feel free to delete everything <4.0 unless it's particularly unusual ("the most shallow", "the first in London since 1750" that sort of thing...) --Pontificalibus (talk) 08:48, 9 March 2016 (UTC)


 * That's why I started with those of less than magnitude 3, as I thought that would be uncontroversial. I will proceed slowly. Mikenorton (talk) 09:46, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

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Notability (again)
I've been through the whole list of earthquakes, re-examining sources and I have created a draft replacement list of the current article at User:Mikenorton/Sandbox4. As you will see this reduces the list to just 14 earthquakes and to be honest some of those are only of borderline notability. I intend to do this replacement in about a week's time, unless someone can come up with reasons (justified by Wikipedia policies) why this shouldn't be done. Note that two on the current list have their own articles, the 2002 Dudley earthquake and the 2007 Kent earthquake, but they do not in my view meet the notability quidelines so I have left them out and I intend to take both of them to AfD. I don't expect this to make many people who look at this page happy, but what I'm aiming for is consistency and matching current policies and guidelines. Mikenorton (talk) 15:02, 7 March 2018 (UTC)


 * This article is emblematic of several WP tendencies to what I call "encyclopedic softness", such as making lists of no particular interest or value just because there are items that can be made into a list. That about two-thirds of the citations here are of a single source (BGS) suggests that this list is little more than a replication of the BGS list, with little or no value added. This list starts by stating it "a list of notable earthquakes that have been detected in the British Isles", but never indicates what the notability is. As for any value in collecting in one place, for the convenience of the reader, an index to notable quakes in a given country or region, well, that is what Categories are for.


 * Lacking any added value (let alone notability), I think this list itself is a candidate for AfD. But I'll leave that for others to decide. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:49, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

I've reduced the list to only those earthquakes that are either notable or are at least borderline notable. Mikenorton (talk) 10:21, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm hoping that we can at last have a discussion about this, rather than just reverting back and forth. I am trying to think of ways to include the non-notable events in the article, without them taking over. Any ideas would be appreciated. Mikenorton (talk) 17:43, 14 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Had a look at the sandbox draft about a week ago and thought to myself that it was a huge improvement. Was going to post that thought here (because how could anyone see otherwise, right?), but didn't because I had second thoughts about stating the obvious. To whomever thinks that these lists should be an attemt to duplicate earthquake catalogs: we discriminate potential content around here because that is one of the necessary elements of creating an encyclopedia. Dawnseeker2000  18:19, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

It appears to me the list is now more indiscriminate than the last list. What makes an earthquake notable? (I know there's the notability guide, but that is for stand-alone articles.) The other list at least appeared to have all earthquakes in an area of the world with long record keeping: now it appears the criteria is that someone likes the earthquake. Perhaps that's not the criteria, but it's not spelled out what the criteria is in the article. Many other countries have lists sourced only to the NGDC. SportingFlyer  talk  04:22, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The lists states (and has stated since it was created back in 2006) that it is a list of notable earthquakes, not a list of every earthquake that has been observed. The current list (as recently modified) only lists earthquakes that meet (or in some cases nearly meet) the criteria. There was something wrong when the list of earthquakes in the British Isles (224 listed) was nearly three times longer than the list of earthquakes in the United States (80 listed). Mikenorton (talk) 10:55, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
 * An NGDC list of significant earthquakes for the UK is even shorter (13 events), although their criteria are actually much more stringent " Moderate damage (approximately $1 million or more), 10 or more deaths, Magnitude 7.5 or greater, Modified Mercalli Intensity X or greater, or the earthquake generated a tsunami" - unclear why they list any of the 21st century events in the UK using those criteria. Mikenorton (talk) 11:05, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
 * As to sourcing only to the NGDC, in our 60 existing list articles, 43 don't use the NGDC as their primary source, 9 use it in part and only 8 use it as their only source. Mikenorton (talk) 12:12, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Notable can be looked at in a varying amount of ways, in a varying amount of circumstances. By definition, notable is something that is worthy of attention. So, for the U.K., I believe anything that has made the news headlines or has been felt is worth being a notable earthquake as they are rarely felt here. It's also worth mentioning that the name of this article is "List of earthquakes in the British Isles", and thus it should reflect that. I have once again reverted the article to a previous version that includes all of this, whilst removing the word "notable" from the introductory section. It might be better reflected if a new article that only lists "Notable list of earthquakes in the British Isles" should be created. It's a simple solution, which would end this back and forth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.152.250.84 (talk) 12:49, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
 * See WP:NOTNEWS, quoting "News reports. Wikipedia considers the enduring notability of persons and events. While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion." Mikenorton (talk) 13:19, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
 * It's not so much inclusion, but more down to notability i.e. how worthy an earthquake within the U.K. is deemed to be. Something that is reported on major news channels can be deemed as notable. Regardless, the wikipedia article is indeed named "List of earthquakes in the British Isles", and thus everything listed in the article fulfils that. It was only down to a past user putting "notable" in the introductory description that could be misleading, which has now been removed in order to comply with the actual title i.e. a list of earthquakes that have occurred within the U.K. A new notable list/page that takes into account what other international sources deem as "notable" could be created. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.152.250.84 (talk) 14:14, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
 * What matters is what Wikipedia deems notable. Your statement "Something that is reported on major news channels can be deemed as notable" does not match Wikipedia's " most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion". Anyway I have been through the original list of events, looking at the available sources and I have added back in some on the basis that they meet the criteria of maximum intensity≥VII, had associated deaths or were part of a major swarm or sequence. I've also added in the largest of the fracking earthquakes as there was a great number of scientific publications generated by those events and it materially changed the procedures for handling seismicity while fracking in the UK. That still leaves dealing with the earthquakes that are not individually notable and taking note of "one of the functions of many lists on Wikipedia is providing an avenue for the retention of encyclopedic information that does not warrant separate articles" I have come up with a draft that just gives location and year for these events. A draft of this appears in the section below. I'm not entirely happy with how this looks, but I think that we need something along these lines. Obviously my draft has no citations - if people are OK with this, it's trivial (if a little tedious) to add citations, which will allow interested users to get more detailed information themselves about each event. Note that in the original list almost all of these were just a date and a place, with no other details, so we're not losing much. Mikenorton (talk) 09:48, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

It's not about notability with this article, as it is simply "A list of Earthquakes in the British Isles". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.67.135 (talk) 16:35, 17 March 2018 (UTC) As this back and forth could go on for a while, here is now a simple solution - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_notable_earthquakes_in_the_British_Isles


 * Did you even look at the section just below where I suggested a way of handling the events that didn't meet the notability criteria? Splitting the articles is not a solution. Mikenorton (talk) 17:45, 17 March 2018 (UTC)


 * I did, but it should be the other way around. The article is "List of Earthquakes in the British Isles" - it does not state notable. This was only added by a user in the introductory section. The most notable should be in their own section in order to keep the original purpose of the article, and not the other way around (as it is a list of Earthquake, not "notable Earthquakes". Whether this section is at the top or bottom, it wouldn't matter. Possible "Notable" and "Compiled List" sections could be created, with the less notable being in a section that currently reflects the format of the current article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.67.135 (talk) 23:22, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
 * It was never added, it was there from the very first edit when the article was created. Mikenorton (talk) 00:02, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
 * If that is the case, then it obviously did not match the intention of the article title. If it is about notable, then the title of the article should reflect that. As it does not, then as the page stands it does rightfully reflect what the article is producing - a list of earthquakes within the British Isles. Nothing in this implies that they are, or not, notable - it is simply a list producing earthquakes that have been detected within the U.K. Although at this point, earthquakes that are deemed to be notable (by whatever terms) should be removed from the overall list and placed into a separate section at the top of the article instead (as they would be the most note worthy). Removing all that is listed and just having a page dedicated to notable earthquakes is not reflective of the article title, and thus they should not all be purged from the article (as they are reflective of the title). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.67.135 (talk) 13:10, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia has no (or nearly no) lists that include the word notable, because as WP:MOSLIST states " words like complete and notable are normally excluded from list titles", so nothing is implied by that. Mikenorton (talk) 17:57, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
 * And so thus the article should reflect both. The article should not solely reflect either or, as reflecting solely on notable does not reflect the title of the article would be misleading. Sections containing both would be preferential i.e. Notable Earthquakes (listing "notable" events") and "Seismic Events" (Listing the events currently listed that are not notable by century) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.67.135 (talk) 18:02, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Well that seems an odd way of looking at it, it could be list of purely notable earthquakes (which is what most earthquake lists are), a list of purely non-notable earthquakes (assuming there was sufficient justification for its existence) or a mixture of the two - as I said "nothing is implied". You have suggested a two section solution, something that I have already proposed in the section below this one, but I've had no response to it. I will continue to work on that solution, as ultimately I think it is where the answer lies to this dispute. Mikenorton (talk) 14:49, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Defining what is and isn't notable, especially for the U.K. is the question really. You could go by other countries standards (that experience earthquakes more often) and a lot of the list wouldn't be deemed as notable, yet going by the U.K's standards would deem a lot of them notable. For example, the recent 4.6 magnitude South Wales earthquake gained a lot of widespread notability due to it's magnitude and rarity, yet on the list you proposed it wouldn't be (going by other countries standards where it might be a lesser deal). For public information purposes, proposing a list of the two (notable and "other" seismic events) would be beneficial and probably the best outcome. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.67.135 (talk) 17:26, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
 * As you can see I have now added some extra details to the 20th-Century and 21st-century earthquakes in my proposed "Other events" section below this thread, including this year's Cwmllynfell earthquake. Mikenorton (talk) 17:49, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Draft summary for events not notable enough for the main list
As mentioned above this is a draft, I'll add citations when I'm more certain on the format before adding it to the article. Comments are welcome.
 * No comments so far - went ahead and added the citations. The main question for the newer events is do we need more information included? If we do, how can we achieve this without recreating the original list? I'm keeping in mind that the likely outcome of this debate is "Merge". Mikenorton (talk) 12:47, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
 * And now I've added maximum intensities and magnitudes for the 20th and 21st century events. Mikenorton (talk) 17:51, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Other events
This is summary of earthquakes that are not individually notable, split by period and approximate location (affected area specified if available). For events from the instrumental era (roughly post-1900) maximum intensity (shown in roman numerals) and magnitude are included.

Pre-1700

 * Scotland 1199, 1597, 1608 (Comrie), 1622, 1668
 * Wales 1534 (N.Wales), 1690 (Carmarthen), 1690 (Caernarfon)
 * England 974, 1048 (The Midlands), 1060, 1076, 1089, 1119 (W.England), 1122 (Somerset, Gloucs.), 1133, 1158, 1165 (East Anglia), 1180 (Notts.), 1228, 1246 (Canterbury), 1299 (SE England), 1318, 1343 (E.England), 1349 (E.England), 1551 (London), 1575 (W.Midlands), 1683 (Derby)
 * North Sea 1508, 1601, 1608

18th-century

 * Scotland 1728 (Galashiels), 1736 (Ochil Hills), 1768 (Inverness), 1795 (Comrie), 1797 (Argyll)
 * Wales 1757 (Holyhead), 1773 (Caernarfon), 1780 (Llanrwst), 1782 (Amlwch)
 * England 1703 (Hull), 1726 (Dorchester), 1734 (Portsmouth), 1747 (Taunton), 1749 (Wimborne Minster), 1750 (London), 1750 (Portsmouth), 1750 (Leicester), 1753 (Skipton), 1754 (Whitby), 1755 (Lincoln), 1757 (Norwich), 1757 (Todmorden), 1757 (Penzance), 1761 (Shaftesbury), 1764 (Oxford), 1768 (Wensleydale), 1768 (Tewkesbury), 1769 (South Molton), 1773 (Channel Islands), 1776 (Dover Straits), 1777 (Manchester), 1780 (Wensleydale), 1783 (Launceston), 1786 (Whitehaven), 1789 (Barnstable), 1792 (Stamford), 1795 (Derbyshire)
 * North Sea 1750

19th-century

 * Scotland - 1809 (Strathern), 1809 (Strontian), 1817 (W.Scotland), 1820 (Kintail), 1821 (Rothesay), 1821 (Comrie), 1822 (Comrie), 1829 (Invergarry), 1840 (Comrie), 1841 (Comrie), 1841 (Kintail), 1843 (Argyll), 1844 (Comrie), 1846 (Comrie), 1853 (Inverness), 1858 (Stratherrick), 1867 (Comrie), 1869 (Spean Bridge), 1871 (Dunoon), 1877 (Mull)
 * Wales - 1800 (Conwy), 1802 (Camarthen), 1832 (Swansea), 1839 (Monmouth), 1842 (Caernarfon), 1843 (Irish Sea), 1847 (Newport), 1852 (Swansea), 1868 (Neath), 1874 (Caernarfon), 1879 (Caernarfon), 1883 (Abergavenny), 1893 (Carmarthen)
 * England - 1801 (Chester), 1811 (Chichester), 1824 (Portsmouth), 1831 (Deal), 1832 (Chester), 1835 (Lancaster), 1837 (Tavistock), 1839 (Rochdale), 1843 (Todmorden), 1843 (Channel Isles), 1852 (Wells), 1852 (Callington), 1853 (Hereford), 1853 (Coutances), 1858 (Liskeard), 1858 (Okehampton), 1859 (Ixworth), 1859 (Padstow), 1859 (Settle), 1860 (Newquay), 1863 (Hereford), 1864 (lewes), 1864 (Todmorden), 1867 (Grasmere), 1868 (Longport), 1869 (Ixworth), 1869 (Rochdale), 1871 (Appleby), 1883 (Launceston), 1885 (Market Weighton)

20th-century

 * Scotland - 1986 (Oban V, 4.1)
 * Wales - 1903 (Caernarfon VI, 4.9)
 * England - 1926 (Jersey), 1990 (Bishop's Castle VI, 5.1), 1994 (Norwich IV, 4.0), 2000 (Warwick V, 4.2)
 * North Sea - 1927 (VI, 5.7), 1958 (V, 5.1)

21st-century

 * Scotland - 2006 (Dumfries V, 3.5), 2009 (Shetland V, 3.7), 2011 (Glenuig IV, 3.5), 2017 (Moidart V, 4.0)
 * Wales - 2002 (S.Wales III, 2.9), 2005 (Conwy VI, 3.3), 2013 (Llŷn Peninsula IV, 3.8), 2015 (Gwynedd III, 3.0), 2018 (Cwmllynfell V, 4.6)
 * England - 2001 (Bristol Channel V, 3.6), 2001 (Melton Mowbray V, 4.1), 2002 (Dudley V, 4.7), 2007 (Folkestone VI, 4.3), 2008 (Bromyard IV, 3.5), 2009 (Folkestone IV, 3.0), 2010 (Coniston V, 3.5),  2011 (Ripon V, 3.6), 2011 (Portsmouth III, 4.5), 2013 (Blackpool III, 3.3), 2014 (Bristol Channel V, 4.3), 2014 (Rutland IV, 3.5), 2014 (Jersey IV, 4.3), 2015 (Ramsgate V, 4.2), 2018 (Cockermouth V, 3.4)
 * North Sea - 2010 (4.8), 2014 (3.9)

WP:NOTINDISCRIMINATE
I trimmed the article after seeing an editor add a minor shock that was "felt by residents" today, 21 February 2022. These lists of earthquakes are meant to be scrutinized and adding insignificant events like that that have no effect on people or things goes against one of the most simple of Wikipedia's policies. Lists are not intended to be a dumping ground of sorts for each and every occurrence. If you look now at the footer of the table you'll see some text that outlines what the requirements are for inclusion in the list. That is essentially how the encyclopedia encourages the different Wikiprojects to do it. Create criterion for inclusion and stick to it. Dawnseeker2000 02:08, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
 * If anyone wants information on all the minor shocks that occur in the British Isles they can look no further than the authorities on earthquakes. The USGS even has great records on these events (and there are a ton of them – 422 on this list). We, the encyclopedia, cannot compete with those organizations as far as depth of coverage. What we can do, though, is write good and featured articles (and discriminating lists) on the events that have a minimum threshold. Again, that is how it is suggested to be done. No featured content will come out of a sloppy, anything goes list, for example. There's literally no good reason to keep adding every single event that happens.  Dawnseeker2000  02:22, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Possible condraticion in article
For the 1275 earthquake the comments section states "Only contemporary report of earthquake fatalities before 1580". Yet for the 1580 Dover Straits earthquake it is stated "First recorded fatality". Unless I am missing something the latter point contradicts the former. The article for 1275 British earthquake would certainly seem to suggest that there was loss of life in it and cites sources to support this. Dunarc (talk) 22:50, 19 October 2022 (UTC)


 * I've removed that claim, which is not repeated in the article on that earthquake nor in the cited source. Thanks for pointing that out. Mikenorton (talk) 23:10, 19 October 2022 (UTC)


 * No problem. Thanks for checking and sorting. Dunarc (talk) 22:41, 22 October 2022 (UTC)