Talk:List of flags of Montenegro

Factual accuracy dispute
I love it how you piled up all these tricolours, but completely ignored the red flags with white/golden border which both Danilo and Nicholas used as their standards as princes + the official flag of the Princedom of Montenegro, that was red as well, and as that was the predecessor to the present flag.... Sideshow Bob 21:44, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry? I piled up all of them and ignored not one. The military flags to which you refer are there as well as the official flag of the Princedom (and Kingdom) of Montenegro (red-bluish-white). Before Prince Danilo decided fro the Serbian-similar tricolor, he had many proposals (one of them was the horizontal flag of France, blue-white-red as well as the white-blue-red with the "Crusade" Cross); in that time his war stag signifying command over the Montenegrin Army was put on institutions temporary before the red-blue-white tricolor was finally stabilized sometime after 1858. --PaxEquilibrium 12:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * First, the lie you keep adding to the article about the new flag being DPS party flag. DPS does not have a party flag, and although they changed a couple of logos dirung the last decade, this coat of arms was never on them before it was adopted as the official coat of arms of Montenegro.
 * Another thing is that you intentionally keep ignoring red flags, as Nikola's royal/princely standard, and also Danilo's princely standard for a while(that ugly purple flag with the coat of arms in the middle. But God, I forgot, they are not Serbian tricolours, why would they be included in the article?
 * I don't know where you found this, but princely standard you put for the Princedom (5th flag in Historical section) is everything but princely standard. Also, I highly doubt that either one of the last two was ever official national flag of Montenegro. But hey, what do I know...
 * I'm sure you know all those rules way better than I do, but I think you should re-read WP:NOR and WP:OWN. Cheers. Sideshow Bob 14:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Calm down. No need to get frustrated. ;)
 * I have corrected myself regarding the DPS.
 * I do not ignore the (military?) flags. They're all here. They're even more present than the tricolors. There was never ever a purple flag (cotw makes mistakes on that one, but that wouldn't be the first time, it's highly erroneous anyway). The Princely standard is from the National Museum of Montenegro in Cetinje. I suggest you to check it out. ;)
 * I too highly doubt the last one was official at any time at all, but the Russian Prince in question drew a collection of Montenegrin flags - and since one of them (the bottom civil one, St. George's cross) which was also never ever recorded to be used, I decided to put another one from Dimitri Romanov. Is there a reason why I shouldn't?
 * As for the plain tricolor, it was the most used flag. Over three quarters of "usage" (duh, don't know how to say it) was the tricolor since the 1850s, mainly by the people - the tricolor was used even by the elite, as the official red-bluish-white was practically almost never in usage. Although absolutely no flag except the red-bluish-white was ever sanctioned as official, and thus neither the plain Serbian tricolor, but the foreign powers recognized it as the "Flag of Montenegro", as much as it could've been said for it (the Almanach de Gotha from 1901 shows that flag as the "Flag of Montenegro" for instance).
 * I don't know why you're angry. The tricolor was the Montenegrin state flag, and the red barjak the war flag (for the time of existence of flags; the 19th century age of national awakening). --PaxEquilibrium 19:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Knjaz Danilo did not use the tricolour, but the red flag with the coat of arms(later there are accounts of pan-Slavic colours being used with the lion in the centre), but in the article the court flags/royal standards start from Nikola's flag, as if our history started with him...
 * If the red flag was never the official one, except for military use, why is it listed in [this] WWI poster (a while after it had been substituted by the tricolour) as the Montenegrin flag?
 * Also, the new flag wasn't adopted for "ideological differencing from Serbia", but to, as I wrote and you reverted, signify the recreation of the Montenegrin independence(I know it was 20 months before the referendum was held, but the campaign was well alive back then; it was active ever since DPS "stole" LSCG's independence ideas and started promising independence and delaying it for years just to stay in power.
 * I'm not angry, just annoyed with the lack of understanding and cooperation here... Sideshow Bob 20:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * But Danil did use the tricolor - he never used the one you refer to.
 * Read the very website you linked website: military flags. :)
 * Doesn't really make sense, since the (Serbia-like) Red-Blue-White tricolor was put in 1878 when it was recognized as independent the last time. --PaxEquilibrium 20:27, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

WWI
The Central Powers banned the Montenegrin flags in 1917 (it stood until the liberation in 1918). They put the Austrian, Hungarian and Croatian national flags, and at the east also Albanian. The only flag for the local collaboration officials was the war flag (alaj-barjak). How to note this...? --PaxEquilibrium 12:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The Flag of the Independent State of Montenegro
Or how should we call the Italian occupation of Montenegro?

Were there any Ustashi in Montenegro during 1941-45? No there were not, hence they could not ban the usage of traditional Montenegrin tricolor. -- Imbris 23:43, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Of course there were. Next to the Italian and German forces, most of the collaborators came from NDH, i.e. Ustashas. The NDCG was a transitional state before it could be incorporated into the Independent State of Croatia. --PaxEquilibrium 13:26, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Pax, you should know better. Apart from the name NDCG (which I apparently popularized) being a total fabrication, there is no evidence to suggest the NDH would have ever annexed Montenegro. The UHRO never claimed Croatian state rights over Montenegro. Also, I have never heard of any Croatian troops operating in the country (apart from attempting to seize capitulated Italy's Bay of Kotor).--Thewanderer 15:17, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Not quite. I thought so in the start myself. See the 12 July 1941 declaration on Saint Peter's Congress of the Montenegrin Federalist Party. The term applied is precisely "Независна Држава Црна Гора". "NDCG" short I invented. Some of the Montenegrin Federalist state core were members of the Ustashi. Montenegro was a short transitional state which was supposed to be included into Croatia, just like Serbia into Bulgaria. --PaxEquilibrium 18:46, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, the Montenegrin Federalist Party was not in power in Montenegro after July 12, so it could not have coined the state's name. Montenegro was an Italian protectorate, so whatever name they adopted was the official name of the state. On the day of Saint Peter's Congress, it seemed like some puppet-regime would be forged out of the Federalists - but this never happened. --Thewanderer 14:56, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * But of course it did. The Montenegrin Federalist Party organized the day the Yugosla Royal Army surrendered, 17 April 1941, the "Provisional Administrative Committee of Montenegro" which oversaw the arrival of Axis forces (mostly Italian, some Croatian and little German) and establishment of a provisional government that slowly oversaw the creation of a Montenegrin state under Italian protectorate. On 12 July 1941 the Saint Peter's Congress which the Party had organized declared the "Independent State of Montenegro". Negotiations with the Axis before MNE officially joined the Anti-Comintern proved tough for the Federalists, they didn't assure Herzegovina nor the Dubrovnik hinterland which already the Ustashas got. Even the Bocca Bay was annexed by the Kingdom of Italy, while the east of Montenegro and Metohija were granted to Albania. The only gain was the Serbian part of Sanjak. The truth is that the Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland with Partisan help brought the country in total rebellion, so Sekula Drljevic didn't stay in power for a full day. Montenegrin Federalists part fled to NDH where they joined the Ustashi and part remained to assist collaboration, but their ranks were desolated by the fights in Montenegro completely that by the time the Yugoslav Partisans liberated in Montenegro, in 1944 there weren't any of them practically left. --PaxEquilibrium 22:28, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

civil ensign?
I'm not sure is present montenegrin flag also civilStefke 02:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It isn't.

well, in this article is mentioned it's state, national, military and civil! I can only confirm 1st and 3rd one. Stefke 01:23, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "..also Grbalj is not a region of Montenegro.." What do you mean by this? --PaxEquilibrium 11:13, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Grbalj doesent have same status like PG, PV, BR or BD.Stefke 01:23, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * So what's the criteria? --PaxEquilibrium 21:42, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * When I said region I thought "Opština". Grbalj is simply not subdivision of Montenegro, see in any other article of this type Flags of country subdivisions. Even Opština is not standard. for example list of flags of flags of any country and you won't find flags of cities or organizations.Stefke (talk) 15:53, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, Okie. :) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 16:25, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

see any

Stop your edit-war please
I have not removed anything that you yourself have not criticized. You stated that crown + NI is civil ensign why returning it to the main flags. Elaborate and do not push for old version back. -- Imbris (talk) 01:59, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * This is your edit war too. I'd rather not fight it, but you constantly remove data (which is blatant vandalism) and even push original research. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 11:06, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Imbris' edits
Imbris, I have just lengthly explained at your talk page the fallacy of your edits, with first hand scanned and uploaded sources as you asked. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 13:05, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

No you haven't explained much. You said that flag with crown and N I cypher is not a flag but a civil ensign then you constatly move it back to the flags.

What are the problem issues with my edits.

Imbris (talk) 02:00, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


 * What are you talking about? You saw a Naval Ensign and thought that it's a state flag - and inserted Nicholas' regal banner, claiming that it's it. The first is where it should be, at the Civil ensigns section, and the latter at the Court flags.
 * Because you remove flags and insert erroneous ones. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 12:34, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


 * What are you talking about? You haven't even looked at my last edit. And now you comment on something that was a day or two ago. You are now inserting Civil Ensign as if it is a state flag. You had princely flag inserted in the state/national flags. You act as if this is your personal article. Stop deleting the little contribution I make. Serbian_flag.png will not be a part of this article. Stop deleting without discussing and stop discussing about topics that were resolved. -- Imbris (talk) 22:06, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes I have. The Civil Ensign is an unofficial reconstruction according to a source with no outside confirmation a national flag of Montenegro. If you want, I'll remove it - but that means then that I'll also have to remove Saint George's flag too. Agreed? No, the princely standard is over at the Court Flags section; I'm not sure if I understand what you mean. The reason for my strict and professional attitude from now on fir you is your highly inappropriate approach so far and lack of any constructiveness. Why won't it be? As I pleaded you at your own talk page - I am cleaning up the mess you've created, but obviously you just keep going like a clockwork machine. :) Lol, just kiddin'. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Stop removing Flag of Montenegro (people's flag from 18xx to 1905).svg file with Serb_flag.png. You speak of Montenegrins used that flag but claim your POV. -- Imbris (talk) 01:08, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 11:05, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * P.S. Let me also use this moment to remind you to explain yourself regarding this. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 11:07, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

You are sorry but still do the same
Why do you request explanation when continue to call me a vandal and destructive. I just add sourced materials which you always remove.

If Princely Flag of Danilo I. is the matter we might find a common language but Nilola I. historical war flag should be left as it is, and also the reconstruction of Danilo I. war flag.

Imbris (talk) 23:31, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh my God, what on earth are you doing??? YOU are the one who is destroying everything related to Montenegrins! PPNjegos (talk) 12:26, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Ive just seen, you lie openly in edit summaries. How can you do that?! PPNjegos (talk) 12:28, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Nice way to start conversation. If I made any mistake you are free to contribute proper information with sources. Everything I did is sourced.


 * We can even make an agreement. I wouldn't delete yours, you do not delete mine. And because the article is about Flags of Montenegro we use montenegrin names for those flags.


 * Serb_flag.png is not a neutral term for the flag you and Pax claim that was overwealmingly used by Montenegrins. Then it is the Image:Flag_of_Montenegro_(people's_flag_until_1905_Constitution).svg.


 * Imbris (talk) 23:59, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * PPNjegos, I can understand Imbris might frustrate you with his edits, but you both must maintain a certain dose of calmness and civility.
 * Actually, he's right on this one - you wrote in the edit summary "I have not meddled with your editing but added some significant flags you ommitted.", when AFAIK, you just keep deleting. Also, you seem to have forgotten about this. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 15:32, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Stop deleting content without reasoning
Your summaries are full of disinformation that I deleted content. Which content did I delete. You are the one who do not discuss and deletes each and every content I add. -- Imbris (talk) 22:25, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Let's solve this in a civil manner. I will revert your edit because there is an ongoing discussion and the two images you uploaded. Let's finish it over there, calmly. I apologize on my part if I have annoyed you about anything. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:53, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * You have not deleted just one or two images but the entire edit. Is this the kind of a discussion you plan to take. Stop. I will be civil as most as it is humanly possible but you should stop deleting. Image that you protested has been changed and it is very well sourced. Stop deleting Nikola I war flag that is museum version from a official site. -- Imbris (talk) 23:42, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Let's keep the discussion in one place - like here. How about it? -- Imbris (talk) 23:50, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * -->the corresponding pages. I have thus added a tag. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:28, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Imbris, I'm busting my ass over here and I don't think you're being very contributive. I have waited and waited and waited some more - but seem to have left this. Now that I restored the original version, you object calling me names. What other way is there to attract attention? You seem to have abandoned all discussion in the two banners of Prince Danil, I just don't now what else to do. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 08:31, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

We shall discuss the entire matter here. As I suggested on 16th of March - to which you havent protested. You are not very contributive but rather deletionist why do you insist on that png file? You have called me names - have I protested (I laughed it off). I have not abandoned any discussion, except those discussions which should be led here, sources are listed in every particular file. If you continue with your demands I will have no other choice than to report you A. Ziggoto is a very well respected vexillologist. -- Imbris (talk) 10:55, 3 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes I have, please reread what I wrote to the up and head over to the relevant discussion talk pages: Image_talk:Princely_Standard_of_Danilo_I_of_Montenegro.png and Image_talk:PrincedomMNEdi.PNG. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 13:16, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * But fine, if that's what you want - let's continue here. I just don't get how you claim you haven't stopped discussing - when those talk pages are full of my outdated comments and on the other hand you continually rv to your unsourced version of the flag, and return the other one into Danil's article. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 13:28, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Princely Standard of Danilo I of Montenegro.png
I can't believe what more I'll see from Imbris...I guess that now you'll also claim that the flag of Serbia is a black eagle on blue background? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 11:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

A clarification for the non-understandable comment to the up: this erroneous flag was uploaded by User:Imbris, who then changed the color of the double-headed eagle from white to yellow. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 15:49, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Sources for that historical re-creation lay deap in the Montenegrin culture and as the matter of fact in the Museum in Cetinje. -- Imbris (talk) 23:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * OMG, Danilo's standard was a WHITE EAGLE on RED BACKGROUND. Come to me and Ill show you the Museum of Cetinje! PPNjegos (talk) 12:24, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * You speak of the war flag and not the princely flag. -- Imbris (talk) 00:39, 8 March 2008 (UTC)


 * A, no. There is no such thing. Danilo had used just one standard. Of course, he placed it in front of his house after Montenegro became a state in 1852, during the time he was searching for a Flag for his country (a tricolor). PPNjegos (talk) 21:42, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * It is very strange to see that you know best like your friend Pax. But have you really been in front of his house in 1852. Or this is just another Saint Sava myth, legend, tale, figment, fairy tale, fable, ... Stop preaching without any fact. I have supplied facts why couldn't you do the same. -- Imbris (talk) 22:49, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Imbris, it is obvious that you have a very large inherent POV regarding Montenegrins and Serbs. Please refrain from expressing such words again.
 * What is your source for this?
 * P.S. I'd also like to remind you about this. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 15:33, 11 March 2008 (UTC)


 * It is very strange to receive such harsh comments. This is not setting the discussion in a normal tone. PPNjegos is slandering so I answered properly. -- Imbris (talk) 19:56, 11 March 2008 (UTC)


 * What does this have to do with PPNjegos?
 * P.S. You still haven't stated what is your source. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 12:27, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Stop your claims that no sources exist. Everything has been written in the file's description. -- Imbris (talk) 23:42, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry but your alleged sources are not viewable. There is no way to view them on(line on) the internet, nor did you scan that book's page. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 13:29, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, I still didn't hear your clarification. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:51, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

It is funny that you ask for sources when there are a bunch of them all over the Internet
You have http://www.rbvex.it/montenegro.html by Roberto Breschi who received help from Diego Bonazzi and Valentina Velimirović. Also http://www.fotw.net/flags/me_ks.html by Mario Fabretto and official http://www.montenegro.yu/english/podaci/symbols.htm (on the symbols of the past entirely). The Montenegrin Football Association also use this colour (pink/light purple/purple) for their goal-keeper's dress.

http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Montenegro.html Benjamin M. Cahoon page by the way this author is inclined to continue Yugoslavia as Serbia.

Imbris (talk) 23:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Your 3rd source doesn't present that, and there is no primary source, just one claim that has spread across the internet, quite outrageously changing the color from violet to red. You have insisted on scanned pages, so I shall do so myself here. BTW, isn't that eagle white? :) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)


 * It is obvious that nothing can be enough and correct for you. Your Cetinje Monastery flag has not any source. Serbian Empire flag is not just second hand but it is based on fairy tales. Yes you presented sources but those sources have no sources. I have presented (concerning this particular flag) my sources - if you are not satisfied write to Switzerland and prove to all these people that they are wrong. I will not endulge your request because these sources are enough to pass any critical analysis. Primary source is located at every of those pages (sources) that I listed. It is the Historical Museum of Montenegro. -- Imbris (talk) 00:40, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


 * No it isn't - because I don't want double standards over here. You have used the right to bug me with every single tiny thing (though you continued to dispute it even afterwards), are you now saying that I am using this to annoy you? Or perhaps you don't like when I act like you? :) If you do not indulge my request, I will consider this your personal opinion of superiority on your part and inferiority of mine - a no-no.
 * Interesting...Angelino Dulcert early 14th century was not living and breathing, but a fairy tale? :)
 * That is false. The Historical Museum of Montenegro is not a source for this alleged flag.
 * P.S. You still haven't explained your self regarding that outrageous accusation. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 09:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Stop preaching on sources when it is obvious that it is not sources that interest you. You are interested in playing with this topic. So play. I am sure that no admin would grant you the right to harrass users just because you are not happy about the sources. Also I am sure that no admin would delete the properly described file that could be found on various internet hosts with people standing with their name and surname for those contents.


 * Angelino draw a medieval map and not a flag, that is a fabrication of the Markuš and Solovjev. It will on the long run damage the Nation on behalf you work in many ways to kling to the past myths and you know about the famous citation of Dobrica Ćosić about lying and stuff. -- Imbris (talk) 23:25, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I think youre the one who is harrassing Pax and not the other way around - you are never happy with sources, deny him the right to put them - and when he scans, you disregard them simply because of your personal opinion of disliking them. Its horible how admins actually alow THIS.


 * So, all Serbs, all Medieval experts, regardless of ethnic origin, are laing because they dont support your personaly ideology wich you must yourself admit, is aimed as a very huge dislike of Serbs and Montenegrins?


 * You cant even begin to imagine, how INSANE this flag looks to me, as a Montenegrin. I dont think you are competent enough regarding the mater, since you ACTUALLY CLAIM that it existed. Im inviting another user to show you. PPNjegos (talk) 08:42, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, calm down PPNjegos, I know how this must be frustrating to you - but we can solve this in an easy and calm manner. Let us let Imbris scan his sources and upload them, then we'll see. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 09:02, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I have no need to justify my sources further than is expected by Wiki standards. If FotW is a reliable source for most of the community it will have to do. Also Pax and his scans can be subject to critical analysis, not everybody should agree with his sources, yet as I recall the motion for deletion was removed from the list. The time will come for such sources to undergo a more critical historical analysis, like Panonian works. -- Imbris (talk) 21:16, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * This is not true, since FotW also claims that the Flag of the Kingdom of Serbia was a red double-headed eagle on a golden background - or do I need to remind you that you actually accused Soloviev and Markus (!) for fabricating them? I don't really understand, does this mean that you take a selective approach at sources - or not? Also, are you actually aware that at yet another image you claim the bicephallic eagle was golden - when FotW itself claims it was only silver? :) How do you explain this? These double standards - if they are so - are shocking to me.
 * I do not think that an Italian book is as worthy as other domestic sources; especially since every single living Montenegrin is certain that this flag has never ever existed. It is only worthy of you to scan and upload the pages - I for one part do not trust online sources, so for justifying the flag of the Serbian Kingdom you so heavily pushed to delete - and which you still claim is a fabrication - I rather went to the library and scanned and uploaded the pages in question. But since you won't do that, I'll go and acquire the book. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * P.S. - I just checked your other source. I missed it at first, but it also doesn't back up your claims. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 21:20, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It does, after Danilo came Nikola and inherited in the first period this flag. Same thing is war flag of Danilo and war flag of NIkola. -- Imbris (talk) 23:41, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it doesn't. If you can see, the Red is depicted as pink in the tricolor, same as with the banner. Please respond fully to this up and not make me wait a long time and then revert to attract your attention. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 23:49, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * You have presented the following 4 sources to substantiate your claim:
 * SOURCE NUMBER 1: Roberto Breschi. To the up you had claimed he is the source for this flag, helped to be created by Diego Bonazzi and Valentina Velimirović. There is nothing such in the link, claim disproven.
 * SOURCE NUMBER 2: The official website of the Republic of Montenegro on Montenegrin national symbols. However, when the link is observed, there is nothing related to this matter; claim disproven.
 * SOURCE NUMBER 3: You claimed that this was the color of the Montenegrin National Football team's goalkeeper. Patent nonsense to be applied as a source.
 * SOURCE NUMBER 4: A. Ziggioto Armi e bandiere del Montenegro: molte ombre e poche luci, Archivum Heraldicum. The reconstruction was made in 1998 by Mario Frabrinetti. It doesn't support this flag; claim disproven.
 * So all in all, you have falsely claimed two sources and even presented patent nonsense as yet another one. Your sole real source doesn't even present this flag - and nevertheless, you have yet to scan and upload it for confirmation. Can you actually believe what you wrote? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 09:09, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

PrincedomMNEdi.PNG
Finally someone found an computer version of:

Incorrect flag
Imbris, this flag didn't exist. This reminds me when you accused me for the NemanjicCrnojevic bit, lol are we switching sides? :) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 00:40, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I do not know what do you mean when say that such flag never existed. Do you mean that it was never described or that the evil Government of Montenegro is lying. Probably it could be traced to some museum or archive where it could be to this day observed and checked by C-16 or simmilar methods. -- Imbris (talk) 00:52, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Of course I am not. Please do not put words into my mouth. I am saying that you failed to see that it is white, and not golden - and the fact that it's actually the military banner. :) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 01:48, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Please stop claiming that Danilo had a white eagle on his flag. Because Image:Alaj_barjak.jpg and the image from Nikola I war flag both have golden/yellow eagle. Nikola simply inherited Danilo I war flag. -- Imbris (talk) 23:44, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * For crying out lauds, not a single flag had a golden double-headed eagle. This is original research. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 01:20, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Regarding this edit summary of yours ("Nikola inherited Danilo and kept the yellow eagle on his war flag"). Please see Nicholas' Banner yourself. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 12:44, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * If you think this is orriginal research then address the issue at a proper place. This discussion would be at a more constructive level if you would stop claiming something that everybody can see for themselves. I have used as a source official documents which have historical value and are museum heritage in Montenegro. Image:Alaj_barjak.jpg and Image:Nikola I used firstly as a War flag.png are enough sources for everybody but you. -- Imbris (talk) 01:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)




 * Why do you still claim that not a single flag had a golden double-headed eagle. -- Imbris (talk) 01:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * And everybody can see this to the up. Both that flag in here, and the two flags you linked use white color. It is you who misinterprets them. BTW, it's very amusing how you argued the validity of the Serbian Kingdom's flag, on the argument that Dulcert's map depicts it white and not yellow, and in here claim that it's actually yellow and not white. :D
 * Because I know at least some basic things about Montenegro. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 21:19, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Maps have been very valuable at the time so made on sheep skin (Pergamena). What Markuš and the other one made are still not enough to withstand any historical or auxilliary historical test. Stop reverting the file. And do you know what I find amusing. The fact that Markuš is a ultra-nationalist who printed his booklet (of 100 and so pages) in 20.000 copies. It is clear what is his intend, using the booklet as a political pamflel because he is a politician and not a historian, his work is also not a historical work but a hoby-research into symbols of Montenegoro. If that was a historical work then it would have 1000 or so pages and would be printed in 1000 or so copies. -- Imbris (talk) 01:30, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Not just Markus' book. Every other source. Even that website you yourself used depicts all flags with a white eagle, and you cannot imagine how shocking this comes to me - it's as if you'd claim that the top stripe on the Flag of Hungary is violet and not red. If Markus is an ultra-nationalist - then I guess you might share some of his attitudes. ;) Please don't try to undermine every single source, just because it doesn't support your original research. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 11:03, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Nice words from Pax. He really thinks that he is well off in this discussion. It is strange to see how he continues to claim that no Montenegrin flag - ever - had a golden/yellow eagle. 60% or more of the peoples in Montenegro do not agree with him. They have through their lawful representatives selected a flag of Montenegro which use heraldic elements that existed in Montenegro of Danilo I.


 * I would not even comment his views that I am a nationalist because I worked with several Serbian editors who commented my work with compliments. Pax lives in Serbia and thinks that Panonian views are correct (regarding drawing of Serbia before 1st of December 1918. Well that is not correct, and the majority of Wikipedia agreed - this image was deleted.


 * What sources. Some modern day books that claim Serbia to the Vladivostok.


 * Imbris (talk) 23:22, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * For heavens sake, people in Montenegro argue ON THE COLOR OF THE COAT OF ARMS - EAGLE. No one SANE (0%) argues that the flags had a white eagle. The new flag was a mixture of heraldic and vexilologic symbols.
 * That seems to me like youd claim. :) PPNjegos (talk) 12:33, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * And that 0% elected the Parliament who elected the Government who made the Flag and the CoA based (by even your oppinion a mixture of heraldic and vexillologic symbols) - they are all wrong. Parliament has been elected by the entire people(s) no matter what pollitical group they belong.


 * Everything is sourced but in the interest of being detached and by looking at the historical images - then why stating the unsupported claim that in Montenegro there has never been a golden/yellow eagle. It is Danilo I. who institutioned the golden/yellow eagle.


 * Also no one has commented that the historical war flag of Danilo I had golden letters D. I. and not black ones which modern sources claim.


 * Imbris (talk) 23:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Nope. They are right. YOU are the one who is wrong.
 * Where is your source? --PPNjegos (talk) 21:34, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Just below, in the second headline. -- Imbris (talk) 22:59, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * You mean you dont have them. PPNjegos (talk) 08:47, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Obvious misinterpretation of sources
To Pax. Why you insist on revertment to the obviously and most apparent misinterpretation of the sources Image:Alaj_barjak.jpg and Image:Nikola I used firstly as a War flag.png. The file you are constant in reverting to Stefke version is a mistake because uses black letters D. I. instead of old gold colour which is present on the first source. -- Imbris (talk) 00:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * How can't you see - you are the one who is misinterpreting sources. Just look at them, please. Also, could you please declare regarding this? Thanks. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 15:27, 11 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Your policy is to always bring up the discussion where it is clear that your POV on Montenegro is a cause of all evils. I will not even look at it.


 * Regarding editing of this image/file and other topics we can discuss about. Sources are not misinterpreted. You are the one whose POV is clouding the discussion and your POV is the main reason for this discussion. Golden/yellow eagles have existed in Montenegrin flag history and these file from official sources do testify for the validity of this particular image/file.


 * Where is Panonian? Are you still best friends? I couldn't belive that there are still young people in Serbia who are focused like you in clear POV of Serbia towards Montenegro and Montenegrins. Schade. -- Imbris (talk) 20:14, 11 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Accusing each other for POV will get us nowhere.
 * ALL sources state that the bisephalic eagle was white - you are just misinterpreting a photograph and improvising by changing the color of the flag. Are you actually aware of that?
 * A user from Montenegro also disagrees with you. And this, pardon me but paranoia, is neither helpful to me, nor you. ;) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 12:25, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The difference being that you accuse for POV without any sources that such offence happened.
 * It is clear that you have some misconceptions about the Montenegrin Nation. This is a nation that exists and nothing can change that, its symbols are official and historical. It is not helpful that you continue to claim that no golden/yellow eagle ever existed on a Montenegrin flag.
 * Also your bringing of users to state their POV which (no coincedence) is the same variety as your own is not helping to solve the discussion.


 * Imbris (talk) 23:39, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Offenses are unjustifiable, no matter what. In addition to that, a total of seven sources has been supplemented to you. This is not a mere offense - this is a very outrageous claim. Does this mean that you perhaps admit that you're wrong? :)
 * I claim this because I have at least some basic knowledge about Montenegro, which (obviously) sadly you do not. This has nothing to do with anything you insinuate. This has got do with:
 * 1. Truth
 * 2. Verifiability
 * Your unsourced claims miss both these points. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 13:25, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * You have not sourced your claims of POV happening in this case. You have only proven your belif system which claims without sources from the past (not todays political and nationalistic sources) that in the history of the Montenegrin flag there was not ever golden/yellow eagle on the flag of Montenegro (of any kind).
 * This is clear POV and your claims of "knowledge" are funny and demeening of my person, but what can we do your offences cannot stick on me (they only reflect you). Your expertise is not history it is your hobby, your user page clearly indicate that computers is your choice.
 * The honourable members of the Parliament of Montenegro have decided looking at the history of Montenegro that there have been flags with golden/yellow eagles in the history of the flag of Montenegro.
 * Also your insinuations are only just what the word says - insinuations.


 * Imbris (talk) 22:37, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I do not want to continue this uncivil bickering from your part, I just want to hear sources. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:49, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

You have received sources under the second headline
What do you expect more. I will not be bothered by your attempts of starting a name calling war but this is reaching every limit. Stop your unsupstantiated claims that there has not ever in the history of Montenegro (flag) been golden/yellow double headed eagle. Danilo could have seen it from Russian diplomats and Nikola certainly from Russian tzars. -- Imbris (talk) 23:17, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * For the last time, there is no source whatsoever. I can't let you conduct OR. My claim is backed by FoTW, Markus, Government of Montenegro, National Museum of Montenegro, countless other and every non-you Wikipedian in here. Now please - either present sources (any at all!), or just abandon your claim. This is not a content dispute, but you're trying to endorse this without any source whatsoever, so I will be reverting to the real original version.
 * P.S. Please do not hypothesize like you did in the last sentence (Danilo could have seen it from Russian diplomats and Nikola certainly from Russian tzars.). This reminds me of the moment you claimed (Is the goal-keeper dressed in pink or what. I think that this has to do with my current issue of the Prince Danilo Flag. -- Imbris (talk) 22:04, 31 March 2008 (UTC)) that the actual color of a football goal keeper today had something to do with Danilo's flag from the mid 19th century, even regardless that your claim is violet and not pink. Danil just removed the cross and replaced it with his personal coat of arms, a white double-headed eagle, in national-romantic remniscence to the Serbian Empire. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 08:27, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Every file has its own source
This is enough for any Wiki analysis. If you want to talk compromises I am open to hear them. -- Imbris (talk) 21:09, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Apsolutely wrong transfference of other discussions
Your claims are completely unsupported, nor FotW, nor Govt of MNE, nor National Museum of Montenegro not countless wikipedians (as this is a democracy). You have no sources - just attacks which will not lead to a mutually assured destruction of time and resources. I will not discuss with you if you do not stop claiming sources without any refference where those sources exist.
 * You do not have FotW
 * You do not have Govt. of MNE
 * You do not have National Museum of MNE

You just have accusations which I am not ready to listen because sources have been given. -- Imbris (talk) 21:09, 3 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I asked for a source for Danil's alleged purple flag. Quote you on 23:48, 16 March 2008: You have http://www.rbvex.it/montenegro.html by Roberto Breschi who received help from Diego Bonazzi and Valentina Velimirović. Also http://www.fotw.net/flags/me_ks.html by Mario Fabretto and official http://www.montenegro.yu/english/podaci/symbols.htm (on the symbols of the past entirely). The Montenegrin Football Association also use this colour (pink/light purple/purple) for their goal-keeper's dress.

http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Montenegro.html Benjamin M. Cahoon page by the way this author is inclined to continue Yugoslavia as Serbia.


 * You claim that the official Montenegrin website supports this. If the link is clicked, you'd see that you are wrong.
 * You claim that Roberto Breschi presents this flag. If the link is clicked, one can see that you are wrong.
 * You claim that the color of the Montenegrin National Football team's goalkeeper is a source for this flag. This is patent nonsense.


 * With what do yo not agree? Can you please just recheck these sources of yours? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 23:49, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Your constant refusal to reach a compromise
Markuš is a dubious source which has not given any idea of a Crnojevic-Nemanjic flag description or design. So this one should go. Constant returning of Serb_flag.png as an image is also not helping

Using images from Markuš that are made with the tools of today and with the completely disregarding of the past and of the museum kept versions. Alaj barjak from Markuš is a fabrication because the Museum kept version is very different (pale yellow eagle). Then Nikola I war flag which also has a golden/yellow double headed eagle. -- Imbris (talk) 21:09, 3 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Really? What makes Markus a dubious source? Yes he has, and if you care so much - head over to the Cetinje Monastery.
 * Using an already existing image instead of creating two - that's pure Wikipedian logic and yes, is helping.
 * No it is not a fabricization - it is a valid reconstruction. Markus isn't the only one who does this - the sources you called upon themselves do so. Nicholas' war flag never ever featured a yellow double headed eagle - but a white one. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 23:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Stop inserting Mitra štaka and whatever
It is rude! -- Imbris (talk) 21:09, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I beg your pardon? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 23:53, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Stop inserting Only Unity Saves the Serbs
It is unsourced because the flag of the Šćepan Mali is known but the CoA is not. -- Imbris (talk) 21:09, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * What does that have to do with this? And no, his Coat of Arms is very well known. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 23:53, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Stop your accusations of a one-party state and symbols
It is rude to state such information solemnly on the basis of your Belgrade and Novi Sad friends. It is unsourced and if should be mentioned then it should not be mentioned in the first few paragraphs of the article but in a neutral place and under a neutral headline. -- Imbris (talk) 21:09, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Also, that comment wasn't very nice - you should pick words better. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 23:56, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Try to be neutral
Everybody can see that you are trying to claim some greater nationalist agenda with regards to Montenegro of today. Montenegro in the past, maybe but then use sources and not unsourced Markuš picture books, Markuš has not claimed any source for his pictures (made today with modern tools). -- Imbris (talk) 21:09, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I am busting my ass over here - I post messages across talk pages, and then you just stop discussing. What option do I have to revert in order to attract your attention? I think that you should try harder so that we can reach an agreement.
 * The main thing in here that bothers me is your potential violation of Original research and lack of any sources at all regarding Danil's banners. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 23:58, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Imbris
You have told me a long time before that you shall scour through the situation and look for sources. I am waiting. Have you managed to do that in the meantime? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 10:29, 10 June 2008 (UTC)