Talk:Ludwig van Beethoven/Archive 4

The Three Periods
This section makes massive over-generalizations and desperately needs citations and attributions. For example, the article states that Beethoven emulates Haydn and Mozart in his Early Period, and cites the Moonlight Sonata as an example. Anyone familiar with the styles of Mozart and Haydn and the Moonlight Sonata knows that this is remarkably innacurate. Apart from his very earliest works, Beethoven certainly could not be described as "emulating" anyone.--SockEat (talk) 07:46, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Reconstructed "Macbeth" overture
Hi All,

Shouldn't there be a line about the reconstructed "Macbeth" overture? I understand that it is only a "reconstruction" from Beethoven's notes. What do you think? http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0DE0DC1431F930A1575BC0A9679C8B63 and what about other reconstructed works like the 10th symphony? Don't they need to be mentioned? freewit (talk) 17:04, 29 September 2008 (UTC) he was born in bonn germeny —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.63.147.151 (talk) 01:23, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Greatest?
We all know Ludwig as one of the greatest composers of all time, or was he?84.13.168.199 (talk) 20:44, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

EB1911 article
The 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica article on Beethoven is now available in Wikisource. Can someone with edit permission add the tag to the External links section? Thanks.


 * Done. Thanks! Antandrus  (talk) 21:15, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

romantic difficulties
I've tried to align better the section on romantic life with the sources, and I've added two sources. I also found a contrary source but am unsure whether it meets WP:RS. "Beethoven, was...deeply in love with his nephew, who finally tried to shoot himself in the head to escape his uncle's obsessive love. The loss of the boy plunged Beethoven into a deep depression which he did not survive. Their conversation books were destroyed by Beethoven's biographer as they were too incriminating." (Corroboration exists elsewhere, e.g., and in a 1954 work that the linked Independent article disagrees with.)  Previously I thought Karl might have been a candidate for the 'Immortal Beloved', but the letter would have had to be written much later to support that. I'll put the quote and links here in the discussion page to see if anyone has any suggestions.TVC 15 (talk) 06:57, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Beethoven Dead From Lead Poisoning?
The link to ScienceNOW Daily (2007-08-28) is subscription-only content. Replaced with a link to the Argonne lab where the research happened. Sam Weller (talk) 15:40, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, Beethoven death from lead poisoning. --Taubblindheit (talk) 19:09, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I've edited this part because talks about Beth's death and I couldn't add a topic. So... wikipedia says Bethoveen died on March 26? Somebody is wrong here...: http://www.alexbenjamin.com/the_third_letter.htm

JULY 7??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.74.244.120 (talk) 16:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Beethoven's name (IPA)
My understanding is that the terminal g is (was?) pronounced [k] in German. Bob Burkhardt (talk) 13:38, 24 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Not if the terminal "g" follows the vowel "i"; in that case, the sound of a "g" is indistinguishable from "ch" after "i": Ludwig = Ludwich (as pronounced in German, NOT Ludwitch). The same rule applies to "ig" before consonants: Ludwigsburg = Ludwichsburg — except before the suffix -lich: königlich = köniklich. Having said all that, there is no accounting for regional differences: in southern Germany Ludwig may well be pronounced Ludwisch. See also: Theodor Siebs (1862–1941): Deutsche Bühnenaussprache&thinsp;—&thinsp;Hochsprache (1898); German phonology. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:25, 25 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The [t] should be changed to [d] - nobody pronounces it "hard", i.e. [t] or even "Ludwisch"....

I'm afraid this matter is still very unclear, at least for someone who doesn't speak German. I understand that German phonology certainly has its subtleties, as well as that there may be no definite answers. However, as much as I appreciate the former contributions: I might add that, as of this edit, there is one sound file with two pronunciations of the composer's name [] (northern and southern, although the author doesn't specify which one is which). My interpretation is that each sounds like this (in order): [ˈluːtvɪç]; [ˈluːdvɪk]. It would also be important to clarify that in the article, as only one IPA pronunciation is given. Thank you. --87.196.92.15 (talk) 23:43, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * it is quite hard to understand what Ludwich, Ludwitch or Ludwisch actually mean!
 * generalized assertions such as "nobody pronounces", especially with no source given, are frustrating to read.


 * The canonical pronunciation is [ˈluːdvɪç] ; the second example in that audio file ( [ˈluːdvɪk] ) is wrong.
 * This thread started with Bob Burkhardt asking about the final "g": is it [k] or [ç] ? My response was that the sequence "ig" at the end of a word is pronounced [ɪç] . And yes, the "d" in the middle is pronounced [d] . Michael Bednarek (talk) 09:33, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Michael. So, according to what you say, there would be two mistakes in the article, as of this edit:
 * The IPA pronunciation [ˈluːtvɪç], which should be [ˈluːdvɪç] instead;
 * The second example in the audio file, which is incorrect.
 * --87.196.92.15 (talk) 14:37, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's my position. I can correct the IPA transliteration in the article soon, but the modification of the soundfile requires a bit more work, so it has to wait for a few days. Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:14, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Composer project review
I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. My review is on the comments page; its last line reads:
 * This article might be B-class, but it is an embarrassment to Wikipedia in the condition it is in.

Discuss.  Magic ♪piano 03:49, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm in basic agreement with your assessment. The existence of the rival article Life and work of Beethoven doesn't help. I'd be in favour of merging them - seeing how long the new article is - and then splitting off non-essential sections. (Some sections could be split off immediately - for example we could start a Ludwig van Beethoven biblography for 'further reading' and Ludwig van Beethoven in films.) -- Klein zach  02:44, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Why is this article still semi-protected?
It's been so since early August. That seems an awfully long time for semi-protection. Loganberry (Talk) 03:18, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * If you look at the history, you will see we tried lifting the semi-protection on 11 July. It lasted four days; the vandals came back like flies through an open window, which we slammed shut by restoring semi-protection on 15 July.  Don't know about you, but I rather like not having to watch the article for vandalism all the time.  Please observe -- notice who has the most edits on the page.  I did not, however, write the article; almost every edit is a vandalism revert.  If others wish the semi-protection to be lifted, I will do so, but I'd appreciate it if other people would watch for vandalism, since I'm a little tired of it.  Thanks, Antandrus  (talk) 03:29, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm in favour of keeping the protection. -- Klein zach  03:43, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Images
Others may disagree, but this article has way too many images. Coupled with the images over at Life and Work of Ludwig van Beethoven (which may or may not be merged), there are ten likenesses of Beethoven. I think that there should be only one, at most two, images of Beethoven on the main article. We can put the rest on a Gallery of images of Ludwig van Beethoven page, where we can have more information relating to each one. It doesn't have to be that exact name. Just something like that. Also, I seem to remember it being possible to have the page randomly choose an image each time it is loaded. If I am correct about this, then couldn't we do that? Asmeurer ( talk   ♬  contribs ) 05:32, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm of two minds about this. I think that, if available and interesting, representations of the artist at various stages of his life are useful.  That said, if those images are the only images in the article, it gets tired pretty fast.  This article could use a wider variety of images.  If it had all the material it merited in it (see my review), I don't think the current portraiture would then be overdone.  Magic ♪piano 22:19, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The images are badly positioned at present. I'll try to spread them out a bit to see if it looks better. I don't have a problem with multiple portraits of the composer, though sometimes these articles have pictures of places and buildings of marginal importance. -- Klein  zach  00:34, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Prengel
I recently discovered a German composer by the name of Gerd Prengel that did something I thought was impossible and that was completing Beethovens last music based on Beethoven´s sketches and doing it so well I was certain that it was Beethoven himself who wrote everything

Check out

The fugato movemement in the first movemement in particular is pure genius

One of the best fugatos I have ever heard

I do not know Gerd Prengel in person and I have no reason promote him other then the fact that I think that he is a genius

He deserves to be mentioned on the main Beethoven page I think —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sevencircles (talk • contribs) 14:28, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

"Bipolar disorder"
In Beethoven's time they didn't medicalize the problems of life. The fashion of inventing diseases without biological bases began long after, so Beethoven was spared the ruination of his genius by psychiatry. Nicmart (talk) 11:43, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Tom Cruise..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.229.98.194 (talk) 23:28, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Franz Schubert
Doesn anyone have any references to Franz visiting Beethoven on his death-bed? I seen a TV show that said Franz entered the room (after Beethoven was giving his possessions away) and Beethoven stated something like: "Shubert... He may have my soul." Beethoven was given some of Schubert's music and he also stated that: "This man will surpass me." Great man. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryan Burke (talk • contribs) 23:54, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Merge with Life and work of Ludwig van Beethoven
The central section of this article is only slightly less detailed than that of the Life and work of Ludwig van Beethoven page, and as far as I can tell, both are competing with much the same objective in mind. It would, I think, be better to have one excellent, coherent article on Beethoven than two of confused intent.

Any seconders? Would anyone be prepared to do this?

CharlieRCD (talk) 11:36, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Second: I agree it would make sense to merge the two. The other WP articles on musicians/composers combine work and personal life into one article.TVC 15 (talk) 06:42, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I have added the merge proposal template to the top of each of these pages. Hopefully a consensus will be reached quickly, as this is a popular page, even though this discussion has been here for a few months.   Asmeurer  ( talk   ♬  contribs ) 05:22, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it would be good etiquette to notify the original creator of the article Life and work of Ludwig van Beethoven,, about this proposal. It should probably also be mentioned at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:39, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I added it over at the project and added a note on Opus33's page. Sorry. I figured that all interested would notice the tags at the tops of the pages.  Also note that I only added the tags in response to the earlier proposals here.  I personally have no opinion of the matter, but I do think that there needs to be a consensus on this, as CharlieRCD makes some valid points.   Asmeurer  ( talk   ♬  contribs ) 17:43, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm completely in favor of this merger. Opus33 (talk) 20:23, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Agree. (There is also discussion about this article and its problems on the Composer's Project talk page -- this merger is probably a good start.)  Magic ♪piano 22:12, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Also agree, although this is probably best done in conjunction with the kind of rewrite that Magic links to above. Eusebeus (talk) 22:20, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * And agreement from me on this. Merging is the way forward! -- Klein zach  00:29, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * A strong agreement from me as well - this merger is definitely a good start.  Greg  Jones   II  03:45, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I have started working on this merger, given the strong consensus. I expect I'll be mostly done Thursday or Friday.  Magic ♪piano 00:50, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Magic. As you probably noticed I gave this task a brief try but then got distracted by other things. Mostly I just tried to pare stuff back. Opus33 (talk) 17:03, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I've completed the bulk of the merge, so all of the content of Life and Work should be reflected here, except for material that was already duplicated in Death of Beethoven. I'll be tieing up loose ends, and will redirect the other page here in a few days.  Magic ♪piano 17:33, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I've redirected Life and Work page to point here.  Magic ♪piano 16:17, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Media
Is there any chance to put the media files in two columns? The present situation is unpleasing to an eye... though more or less all the pieces are well-known so a selection would be hard. --Tone 20:28, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't see any such unwieldy list elsewhere (e.g. with Mozart, Bach, Haydn, Vivaldi, Tchaikovsky) though it would not be hard to create it. Scrolling list is not the appropriate solution as it only works for some people and causes problems with readability, accessibility, printing, and site mirroring. A selection should be made with the rest of media available at Commons. --Eleassar my talk 07:15, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I still don't believe that MOS:SCROLL applies ("never be used in the article prose or references" — it's not), but in any case, a massive change like that should have been proposed here before quadrupling the visible length of the article and make it unreadable — looks rather pointy to me. I don't necessarily dispute that the list is too long and that Commons is indeed the right place for this, but I strongly believe such a change should have been proposed here, so interested editors could have made a selection or devised a more pleasant way of presenting the sounds, maybe with a gallery. Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:52, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok, I've temporarily readded the scroll to not cause disruption as editors make a selection (or devise a more pleasant way of presenting the sounds). However, the fundamental problem (located in the main part of the article) persists: it only works for some people and causes problems with readability, accessibility, printing, and site mirroring. --Eleassar my talk 08:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I'm busy until Sunday morning (Australian time), but I will propose cuts to the list then. As for the List of compositions by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart where you applied the same change, I think the Template:Sample box start (see: Jazz) might possibly help. Again, I'll look at that tomorrow. Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Following the discussion above, I removed all sound files which already appear in their respective articles:

I also removed sound files which cover the same work again (duplicates):

This leaves these sound files: (some could go into existing articles, most don't seem to have one)

I also shortened the description of some files (-"Courtesy Musopen").

Lastly, I cannibalised the HTML code at Template:Sample box start to place the soundfile against the right edge along the text to save space. Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:43, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Well done. I also think some of the portraits of LvB in the article are redundant. For example, the 1804 portrait by W.J. Mähler covers part of the text with my resolution. I propose it is removed as the article also includes a portrait from 1803. --Eleassar my talk 09:59, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * That image shows up fine here in IE7 using any window size with a screen resolution of 1920x1200. However, there are indeed plenty of images, so if there is the likelihood of a problem I wouldn't object to removing it. Funny thing is, that very image was uncategorised in Commons; I've now categorised it as commons:Category:Ludwig van Beethoven in art which is a sub-category of commons:Category:Ludwig van Beethoven so people will see it when they go there. Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:19, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to me that putting the sound files that have no articles here is the best way to go. The reason that these files have no main articles is that they are relatively obscure. Shouldn't the Beethoven page have sound files of his most important and influential works? The idea should be to give readers an idea of what his music sounds like. Asmeurer ( talk   ♬  contribs ) 06:06, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I just noticed this comment. Perhaps the more obscure works can be put in sidebar boxes (i.e. next to portions of the list) in List of compositions by Ludwig van Beethoven?  Magic ♪piano 01:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

That's a great idea! Either that, or we create stub articles for those pieces to hold them. Any idea what sort of works should be listed on this page? And I probably should have started a new topic, but this one seemed relevant enough. Asmeurer ( talk   ♬  contribs ) 06:48, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I placed those audio files into the pages as indicated above. Michael Bednarek (talk) 09:16, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Soundfiles in article
As far as what to put on this page (we are in agreement that there should be some samples on this page?), I would suggest starting with the pieces specifically mentioned in the article, or at least in the music section. That would include the fifth symphony (first movement or all movements), the appassionata, pathetique (second movement or all movements), moonlight (first or all), and waldstein sonatas, and fidelio (we only seem to have one aira. The overture would probably be better). It would be nice to have the ninth and maybe third symphonies, as well as the emperor and violin concertos, but we have to work with what we have. I'm not as knowledgeable on his chamber music, so suggestions there would be good. I am most familiar with his symphonies and piano sonatas.

If this doesn't cover it, it might be good to have a selection or two from each period on the respective section, to help show the development there. Asmeurer ( talk   ♬  contribs ) 17:23, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I would vote for severely limiting the set of media presented here, to include things like:
 * each period should be represented
 * works from major genres: symphony (ideally either Ode to Joy or #5), string quartet, piano sonata, something vocal
 * The samples should be restricted to single movements, otherwise the list just becomes unwieldy. The media section could list a few additional articles of works that have reasonably high-quality media.  Magic ♪piano 17:29, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps we should place all the media on a Gallery of Works by Ludwig van Beethoven page. Either that, or we create a category (which I think should be done anyway) for all the work pages that contain media. We could then just link to that category (although linking to a category page doesn't seem to work. Typing  just adds the category to the bottom of the page). Asmeurer ( talk   ♬  contribs ) 15 January 2009
 * Link to a category by putting : before it (as in Category:Works by Ludwig van Beethoven with media). Could be a good idea.  --RobertG &#9836; talk 20:14, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Re Gallery: Isn't that what Commons is for? There is the customary link at the bottom of the page where all these are presented. Michael Bednarek (talk) 09:45, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah, two colons, that works. As for the gallery page idea, there are several gallery pages already in existence.  I'm not sure how often category pages are linked to within articles; that's a little hard to search for.  On a side note, does anyone know why only a handful of the works from musopen have been uploaded?  They have the complete piano sonatas there, and it's all public domain.  Is there some kind of permissions issue, or has no one gotten around to doing the whole thing yet?   Asmeurer  ( talk   ♬  contribs ) 17:51, 16 January 2009 (UTC)