Talk:Ludwig van Beethoven

Beethoven's Nationality
Beethoven's family was from Austria and he even moved back to Vienna when he grew up, yet on Wikipedia, it calls him a German composer. He was not German, not even Prussian. He happened to live in Cologne for the beginning of his life, but he was and always will be an Austrian composer. Germany didn't even claim Beethoven to be German until the rise of Nazism. Calling Beethoven German is a common misconception nowadays. I was wondering if there was any reason it should be changed to "Ludwig van Beethoven (baptised...) was an Austrian composer and pianist." Thanks! Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 18:31, 29 March 2024 (UTC)


 * It appears that most major reference sources, such as Grove Music, continue to refer to him as German. Do you have sources that use Austrian? Nikkimaria (talk) 18:34, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, his family was from Mechelen in Brabant, no? Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 11:12, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I just looked at his family tree and his father was Austrian, but his mother was Prussian (German). Perhaps it should not read Austrian composer as I originally thought but Ludwig van Beethoven (…) was an Austrio-German composer and pianist. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 11:34, 30 March 2024 (UTC)


 * We can't look at the primary sources and interpret how we should refer to him - see WP:NOR. Instead we need to follow the secondary and tertiary literature, which as mentioned seems to use German. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:07, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Don't primary sources usually take precedent over secondary sources? Also, this brings to question why these secondary sources exist. When was he first referred to as German? Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 16:31, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * No, they don't - see WP:PSTS. Johnbod (talk) 16:38, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * But the Primary source is the rock-solid truth. Secondary sources are just interperations. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 17:26, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is based on what the majority of reliable secondary sources say. It may be hard to swallow, but things like "rock-solid truth" don't have any meaning for WP's purposes.  Aza24  (talk)   20:03, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Why, though? Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 00:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Because of Wikipedia's three core content policies: neutral point of view, verifiability, and no original research. We summarize what secondary sources say, representing them proportionately; we don't declare absolute truths based on interpretation of primary sources. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
 * This is not original research. It is a re-analysis of existing sources and solid facts. The "secondary" sources are more like quadrinary sources (possibly based on none other but our own wikipedia) I'm willing to compromise. We could call him an Austro-German composer. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 15:37, 1 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Re-analysis of primary sources is, by our definition, original research. Do you have any secondary sources that refer to him as an Austro-German composer? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:58, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Quick question: why no original research? Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 13:47, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * | Yes, wikipedia. (1st mention of beethoven) Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 13:54, 2 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Open wikis are not reliable sources, and WP:NOR is a core content policy. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:47, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Is there a reason why no original research is permitted? Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 13:19, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * There is a direct source which obviously provides evidence that Beethoven was at the very least part-Austrian Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 13:20, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Have you actually read WP:NOR? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:21, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I forget who once wrote something along the lines of "the great triumph of post-war Germany was to pursuade the world that Beethoven was German and Hitler Austrian". Johnbod (talk) 16:38, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Beethoven was at least half-Austrian. He would've wanted to be reffered to as Austrian, heavily associating himself with the hapsburghs and their nation. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 17:25, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Hitler on the other hand, was a German Nationalist. It is not the birthplace, but the ethnicity and ideology that make up the nationality. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 17:33, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Die Österreicher haben das Kunststück fertiggebracht, aus Beethoven einen Österreicher und aus Hitler einen Deutschen zu machen.
 * The Austrians have completed the feat of turning Beethoven into an Austrian, and Hitler into a German.
 * As quoted in DER SPIEGEL (16 May 1994))
 * From https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Billy_Wilder 84.158.232.73 (talk) 19:49, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Beethoven obviously preferred Austria and was never never set foot on Prussian (German) soil.
 * THe Austrians are kind of right. Beethoven had Austrian nationality,not German or Prussian. so... Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 22:26, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * In addition, "van Beethoven" means from the (Austrian) noble house of Beethoven. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 15:33, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Plus, he was born on Austrian soil. (even if it is modern-day Germany) Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 15:38, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Bonn was Austro-Hungarian in the late 1700s. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 15:40, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Nonsense (A-H isn't even a term applicable for the Ancien Regime). It was in theory part of the HRE, but was ruled by the Archbishop-Elector, in 1770 Maximilian Friedrich von Königsegg-Rothenfels, later Beethoven's first employer. Johnbod (talk) 15:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The Ancien Regime was French. You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 21:20, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Ancien Regime has been very widely used for over a century to cover all Continental monarchies before the French Revolution. Johnbod (talk) 12:54, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Austro-Hungary was a part of the Holy Roman Empire and if you look at a map of the 'HRE' in the late 18th century, you will find that they owned a sizable piece of land in the west that included the Lower Countries and Bonn. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 21:27, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The HRE didn't "own" its territories, except the few the emperor ruled directly, which didn't include Bonn. Please stop wasting people's time with your uninformed opinions. Johnbod (talk) 12:54, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Bonn was Austrian territory when Beethoven was born. His lineage was of Austrian royalty. He was Austrians. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 14:26, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Really. I wonder could you provide one single WP:RS source to support your somewhat surprising claim that "Bonn was Austrian territory when Beethoven was born"? I have just searched the article on Bonn for the word "Austria". How many instances do you think I found? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:44, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * His family was Austrian. His was Austrian nobility! Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 13:23, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * There is no mention of nobility at Ludwig van Beethoven the Elder? Beethoven's great-grandfather was a master baker? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:29, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * This is why he was not considered a servant in the Austrian courts Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 13:31, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * His family was regardless Austrian Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 13:31, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Flemish (part of Austria) Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 13:32, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, he had lines through both his father and mother that led to upper Austria Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 13:32, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "Upper Austria", eh? I see. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:37, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Upper Austria is the region in Modern-day Austria in between the Tyrolean alps and the fertile plain of Lower Austria. It is very hilly, but not as rocky as Tyrol. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 14:09, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Who was from there? Sorry, I've lost track. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:11, 7 May 2024 (UTC) p.s. did he think of himself as "Austrian" and describe himself that way? Thanks.
 * Through his mother mostly, Maria Magdalena Keverich, and yes, he demanded that the Austrian nobility respected him as one of them. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 14:25, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Again, there is no mention of Austria at that article? You might wish to direct your efforts first to that article, to clearly establish that she was "Austrian". Martinevans123 (talk) 14:30, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * He demanded to be known as an Austrian just like all of the nobles in Vienna. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 14:38, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Where's the source for that? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:40, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * WP:DNFTT.  Magic ♪piano 21:19, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It might be wise to hat this thread? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:30, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia discourages Superhatting Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 14:29, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia discourages endless pointless discussions. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:31, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * True, but if you look at genealogical records, you will find some compelling evidence. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 14:33, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Only you seem to find it "compelling". Everyone else here, so far, sees it as irrelevant. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:35, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Nobody has looked at the records so... Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 14:36, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Look below. It says he was flemish in origin. The flemish were part of Austria so... Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 14:40, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Even more evidence, making the V a lowercase was a germanisation. He couldn't have been german or his name wouldn't have had to be germanised. Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 14:42, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Or maybe his signature varied over his lifetime? Or maybe he had a dodgy pen? Or maybe his hand slipped? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:45, 7 May 2024 (UTC)


 * User:Jaxon.t.allen, please read and absorb Indentation. This thread is mostly you talking to yourself. -- Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:21, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Jack Jaxon.t.allen (talk) 18:08, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Beethoven’s Secret Code
Do we want to add anything about the notation marks discussed in this article? Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:48, 15 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Interesting article, but the "secret code" aspect is clearly click-bait nonsense. Nothing I'm reading is exceptionally different enough from standard dynamic markings to warrant inclusion in a general encyclopedic article.  Aza24  (talk)   04:57, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Infobox
Bonn was part of the Electorate of Cologne at the time of Beethoven's birth. And Vienna was the capital of the Austrian Empire, I see no reason to not put that information on the infobox. It is not as if this was a disputed thing. FCBWanderer (talk) 18:47, 20 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Nor is it a particularly helpful thing. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:09, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Every major historical figure in the depths of this encyclopedia has the country of their location, I do not see a reason as to why this should be any different. Nurusa101 (talk) 18:53, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Für Elise namesake discrepancy
In the article it is stated in regards to Therese Malfatti that "She is now remembered as the recipient of the piano bagatelle Für Elise.". However, the article for the piece states that "It is not certain who "Elise" was", and discusses in length about the possible identities. Perhaps it should be changed from "the recipient" to "a possible recipient"? Very Fantastic Dude (talk) 19:57, 21 April 2024 (UTC)


 * This talk page is for discussion about this Beethoven article specifically; these matters should be brought up at the respective articles in question  Aza24  (talk)   20:25, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I brought it up here because I think the change should be made here. The other article seems to be pretty confident on the matter, so I think this article should be changed to match that one. Very Fantastic Dude (talk) 08:50, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I've added "possible" to this article. In any case, my point was (which I did not explain properly) that these articles are at very different states; the Beethoven article is rather rigorously cited to leading academic scholarship, while the Für Elise article is a host of random references to Alfred Music, Youtube, the New Yorker, hundred year old sources, etc.  Aza24  (talk)   17:48, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Article class
I don't understand why this is only a class B article. The writing is good and there are a lot of sources. There are many articles about composers which are also class B and not nearly as good as this.

Is there something I'm missing? If not, I think we should vote for a reevaluation to have the article graded A, GA, or even featured. Cheers. Wikieditor662 (talk) 02:25, 13 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Only certain WikiProjects have an A-class process, and as far as I know none of the relevant ones here do. GA and FA are not votes; GA status requires evaluation by a single reviewer against the GA criteria, whereas FA status requires a candidacy process involving multiple reviewers considering the FA criteria. In both cases nomination should be done by or with the agreement of the most significant contributors to the article. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:37, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Well the nomination would require someone who significantly contributed to this article and who is available to respond in a timely fashion for the next couple months, neither of which describes me. Do you know anyone who could do this? Wikieditor662 (talk) 02:50, 13 July 2024 (UTC)