Talk:MF Doom

Semi-protected edit request on 28 February 2024
i just wanna change anything titled as Doom to DOOM Vanhutenmilhouse1 (talk) 17:49, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Per the MOS it's still not going to be changed to DOOM, please see many of the other messages on the talk page. Tuna Flag of the United States.svg Veni Vidi Vici 17:51, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I believe you may be misinterpreting the MOS. See: MOS:BIOEXCEPT Criedley (talk) 14:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Issue with American-British as a nationality
If he was born in Britain, died in Britain, never gained citizenship in America, and had no Ancestral/parental links to the USA, why call him American? He did grow up and live in the US, but surely this could be explained in the summary, instead of immediately putting American-British, to then be explaining that that is false.

You could change the paragraph to say “was a british rapper and record producer who grew up and mainly lived in the USA”.

I’m not an avid wikipedia user, so it’s possible i could be wrong, but i feel like this is just blatantly wrong. Even Trinidadian-Zimbabwean rapper is more correct than the current. AbsoluteMadness (talk) 01:15, 2 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Please see the FAQ at the top of this talk page. Popcornfud (talk) 03:24, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * His parents lived in the US he was only born in the UK because his mother was pregnant upon travel. He had ancestral links to the US, lived here the majority of his life, and was raised in NYC. 108.52.56.66 (talk) 16:28, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Agree. Criedley (talk) 07:03, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

MF DOOM's name should be stylized correctly
Wikipedia's guidelines about this are clear, his stage name should be depicted in ALL CAPS as per his own request and how he is most commonly referred to. If you don't agree with that then why does the article for Spam (food) say "(stylized as SPAM)" when MF DOOM's article does not? If it is truly wikipedia policy and not pedantry then the SPAM article must also be changed or the MF DOOM article must be appended with "(stylized as MF DOOM)" at the very least. It is not right to fully deny MF DOOM correct display of his stage name, why does spam get that respect and a (former) living breathing person does not? Either change that article or this one. ReddestVelvet (talk) 16:23, 23 June 2024 (UTC)


 * The lead sentence already says the name is "stylized in all caps". Popcornfud (talk) 18:09, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree with this 100%. This is Wikipedia's policy—why is the article source for the introduction section commented with "Do not change to all caps - file is case sensitive"? This is extremely vague. Is this referring to the potential for broken redirects to this article? If so, why not simply query all redirects to this page and change the case of them to reflect the CORRECT styling. If there is no objection to this then that would suffice for consensus I think, and I will go ahead and perform that. Im also going to look at revision history and see if whoever commented on that can be PM'ed for a clearer explanation. Criedley (talk) 06:52, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The comment about the file being case-sensitive is referring to the infobox file MF Doom - Hultsfred 2011 (cropped).jpg. If you change it to MF DOOM - Hultsfred 2011 (cropped).jpg (uppercase) then the image won't load.
 * The lead sentence already says the name is stylized in all caps. That's sufficient. We don't need to write MF DOOM in all caps to demonstrate what we mean by all caps. Popcornfud (talk) 08:46, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * ... And in fact, thinking about it more, the claim that the name is stylized in all caps isn't sourced or mentioned in the article, which leads me to suspect we shouldn't even include that. Popcornfud (talk) 08:47, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It is a fact that his name is stylized in all caps, it is even expressly stated in his instagram bio.
 * Source: https://www.instagram.com/mfdoom?igsh=MTAxbGV2Z2FjbXox
 * The image issue can be easily fixed. Is there any other reason you think it should be in all caps?
 * Criedley (talk) 09:15, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Please, lets not to revert evidence-based improvements to this article. It is pretty obvious that there is a consensus on this discussion page regarding how his name should be styled. Edit warring doesn't help. Criedley (talk) 09:21, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Why does the image filename matter? Popcornfud (talk) 09:23, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Im not sure what you are asking by that question, could you reword it? In your previous comment you said the image wouldn't load if the styling was corrected, because of the image filename. If you're asking me why the filename matters, I have no idea. I also do not see how the content of an article could affect an image file, could you elaborate on that? Maybe I'm missing something. Criedley (talk) 09:30, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * You wrote "The image issue can be easily fixed". What issue are you talking about and why does it need to be fixed? Popcornfud (talk) 09:45, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I am referring to the reply you posted in this thread at 08:46, 24 June 2024 (UTC), where you stated:
 * "The comment about the file being case-sensitive is referring to the infobox file MF Doom - Hultsfred 2011 (cropped).jpg. If you change it to MF DOOM - Hultsfred 2011 (cropped).jpg (uppercase) then the image won't load."
 * Thats the issue I am referring to and if it is an actually issue it needs to be fixed so that "MF Doom" can he corrected to "MF DOOM", because:
 * •that is how it is de facto stylized
 * •that is how the subject of the article himself stylizes it, and most importantly:
 * •that was the consensus reached in this talk page Criedley (talk) 10:07, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Can you explain why SPAM is *actually* stylized in all caps while MF DOOM's after merely says it should be but doesn't actually do it? Could you also explain why you fight so hard about this every single time it's brought up? There's a mountain of evidence that proves his name should be stylized in all caps and nearly no evidence that it shouldn't be and yet you are actually trying to argue that the article shouldn't even say *that* which i find absolutely ridiculous, I think you are arguing in bad faith and users who do not respect his legacy should not be allowed to edit his page because they're mishandling it, so much so that i think it may be on purpose. ReddestVelvet (talk) 10:16, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree and I think a third party should assist in this. Criedley (talk) 10:24, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Are you aware of Wikipedia's edit warring policy? Criedley (talk) 10:41, 24 June 2024 (UTC) Criedley (talk) 10:41, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Lets get back to the central topic of the dispute which is whether MF DOOM should be stylized in all caps. The infobox image doesn't really matter, I thought that was your reasoning for reverting the edits that corrected the styling of "MF DOOM". If something is stylized a certain way, then that is how it should be actually stylized. This is standard across Wikipedia and I don't really understand why those corrections were flippantly reverted. Criedley (talk) 10:21, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

MF DOOM wasn't born on July 13
He was actually born on January 9, 1971. There might be confusion because MF DOOM often wore a mask inspired by the Marvel Comics character Doctor Doom, who shares a birthdate of July 13. However, his actual birthdate is January 9. 93.44.121.205 (talk) 09:15, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * You might be correct, but Wikipedia is written based on what reliable sources say. See Verifiability, not truth.  AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 15:04, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Suggestion: move page to “MF DOOM”
I believe that this is the consensus, just wanted to allow discussion. Criedley (talk) 14:07, 24 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Read MOS:BIOEXCEPT Criedley (talk) 14:21, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That is not the consensus and you're being disruptive. Please read the FAQ and give it a rest. Popcornfud (talk) 14:44, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It is consensus and they are not being disruptive, you are the only person who doesn't want to capitalize his stage name and you're being ornery about it. ReddestVelvet (talk) 14:50, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The MOS section referenced in the FAQ is not applicable to the styling of names in every instance, see MOS:BIOEXCEPT. Contradiction =/= discussion. There have been no valid arguments in favor of the way you seem to prefer it styled. Criedley (talk) 15:06, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

RfC on name styling
Should the stage name of an artist be styled in all caps if that is the way the artist explicitly wishes it to be styled, and that is how it is most often styled in sources? I.e. should "MF Doom" should be styled as "MF DOOM" per ?

Example of source containing the correct styling: https://web.archive.org/web/20240624134441/https://www.npr.org/2021/01/01/952519277/mf-doom-enigmatic-rapper-and-producer-dead-at-49 Criedley (talk) 14:59, 24 June 2024 (UTC)


 * No. Wikipedia has its own manual of style, and does not write things in BLOCK CAPS. See MOS:ALLCAPS. This has been discussed to death on this talk page for years. See the FAQ on this talk page. Popcornfud (talk) 15:05, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I beleive you are misunderstanding that section of the MOS. This is about how his stage name, is factually styled, not a string of letters being arbitrarily capitalized. See MOS:BIOEXCEPT Criedley (talk) 15:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The MOS literally says it should be treated as a self published name change, and should be styled accordingly. Criedley (talk) 15:14, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * No, MOS:BIOEXCEPT says we may make an exception when an overwhelming majority of reliable sources use that exceptional style. The majority of reliable sources use lowercase. This is in the FAQ. Popcornfud (talk) 15:15, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That is simply a false statement, anyone can do a quick google search and see how it is styled the overwhelming majority of the time. For instance:
 * https://web.archive.org/web/20240624134441/https://www.npr.org/2021/01/01/952519277/mf-doom-enigmatic-rapper-and-producer-dead-at-49
 * And the purpose of this request for comment was to bring bickering on the talk page to a halt. Criedley (talk) 15:33, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I know it's stated in the FAQ but where is the proof or source(s) which show that the majority of reliable secondary sources use lowercase? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 03:39, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, I see sources provided in another comment and a shallow search of JSTOR shows much use of "MF Doom". This RfC should likely be closed for failing to comply with WP:RFCBEFORE. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 03:45, 29 June 2024 (UTC)


 * No. Wikipedia's usual house style is to reduce all caps to lower case; see MOS:ALLCAPS. An overwhelming majority of sources using all caps for Dumile would be required to locally overrule the house style guide. Lower case sources such as Icons of the American Comic Book, Contemporary Musicians: Profiles of the People in Music, and Who You Think I Am?: Masks in Pop Music would have to be counterbalanced by many more sources in all caps. A simple majority of all caps sources is not "overwhelming", so folks who want all caps will have quite a task ahead of them, listing every all caps source against the lower case ones to prove their case by showing overwhelming numbers. Binksternet (talk) 15:39, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Its okay to disagree! Thats what the dispute resolution process is for. Hopefully we can get some outside input on this. Criedley (talk) 15:52, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The first source you listed has nothing to do with MF DOOM. Are you familiar with the subject of this article? It is about the rap artist MF DOOM, not the supervillain Dr Doom. The second source you listed makes no mention of MF DOOM whatsoever. It increasingly seems you are not acting in good faith and are just trying to "win" this dispute. Criedley (talk) 16:00, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Ironic, considering that's the only comment by the user on this page. Meanwhile, you bludgeoned this talk page today with 22 edits (so far).  AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 16:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)


 * No, not seeing that it clears the overwhelming majority of reliable sources of MOS:BIOEXCEPT. The online music press certainly uses "MF DOOM" a lot, but in-depth news articles mostly seem to favour "MF Doom". Belbury (talk) 17:52, 2 July 2024 (UTC)