Talk:Maria Ulfah Santoso

Meester in de Rechten, Meester, Mr. whatever, the DYK race continues
Meester in de Rechten usually refers to the Dutch LL.M. At the time Maria Ulfah Santoso obtained her degree, I believe it would have been an LL.M in the Dutch system, not an LL.B. as she the degree in Nederlands, although later in Indonesia it could have been a LL.B, while her form of address for a while might still have been "Mr.," but due to her age, I assume this is not the case. The reference says LL.M., though, not LL.B.

There is no explanation of the DYK in the article. The article uses "Mr." in the Indonesian politician box, uses "Meester" as the first title in the article (usually only abbreviated), then moves on to explain nothing.

So, please clear this up. Is her degree an LL.B.? Is it an LL.M.?

I've been officially declared a nuisance for asking for accuracy in Wikipedia articles, so, please do feel free, as usual, to personally attack me for wanting to use Wikipedia as a source of accurate information. 68.107.141.42 (talk) 09:46, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

It's a Master's Degree. Prior to the implementation of the bachelor/master system, the Dutch academic degrees were equivalent to the Anglo-Saxon master's degree. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.212.140.42 (talk) 10:58, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I thought this was the case, but I was not sure, because of later changes in how it is used. Then the parenthetical "bachelor's degree" needs removed from the article. 68.107.141.42 (talk) 11:26, 1 April 2012 (UTC)


 * The source says, and I quote "... in 1929 the Netherlands East Indies government sent her father to study cooperatives in The Hague he took his children with him. In that year Maria Ullfah entered Leiden's Law Faculty and was graduated with the degree of Meester in de Rechten in 1933 at the age of 22." A reader's lack of background understanding or willingness to look at sources does not mean an article contradicts itself. Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:06, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 1 April 2012
It seems that user Imzadi1979, who won't discuss the issue in article talk space, thought that the "bachelor's degree" in parentheses was a translation of the Dutch. The Dutch term, "Meester in de Rechten", is very commonly heard in Europe and in Dutch-speaking countries, and I did not see this other confusion. Rather, I thought the issue was a mistake made about the timing of the granting of the degree, that a law degree today in Indonesia is (can be?) a professional degree (S1, like an RN getting a BS in the American system), but Mr. Santoso obtained her title from a Nederlands university at a time when it would have been an LL.M., the equivalent of a J.D.(S2). (But don't quote me on any of this.)

The line should read, "Meester in de Rechten (Master of Laws) degree", as this is the degree she has according to the source and this is the correct translation according to the time the degree was granted.

If her degree were an modern LL.B., her title would not be "Mr." (but rather S). Possibly another editor may be able to explain the Indonesian legal education system, but not I. This edit would match the source, while the current contradicts itself in time and meaning. 68.107.141.42 (talk) 12:05, 1 April 2012 (UTC)


 * How does it contradict itself in time and/or meaning, when the source reports the exact same thing? It's possible that a reader's background understanding may be lacking, but this does not mean the article is contradictory. Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:03, 1 April 2012 (UTC)


 * The source does not mention bachelor's degree anywhere. I downloaded it and this is what I found: "In that year Maria Ullfah entered Leiden's Law Faculty and was graduated with the degree of Meester in de Rechten in 1933 at the age of 22."


 * I did a search for "bachelor" and could not find it. Maybe you could give me a page number.


 * If the article has already been locked once for edit warring, your coming in and continuing the revert war without first discussing the issue is not consensus building. 68.107.141.42 (talk) 13:12, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to change it again, and the original editor (if s/he disagreed with the translation) could have just changed it. Having looked at the source yourself, you can agree that the chronology is not off, n'est pas? Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:15, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the chronology is fine. My only concern is the translation from the Dutch, and I think that arose simply from using a modern equivalency rather a translation from the early 20th century Dutch. If the title were given some 40 years later, the "bachelor's" translation might have been correct, and later than that it's the Dutch rather than the English that might have been the problem. I was hoping someone with more knowledge would deal with the issue, so I tagged it originally to try to get assistance, then got sucked into, well, you know.... 68.107.141.42 (talk) 13:34, 1 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Alright, sounds like a consensus. Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:17, 1 April 2012 (UTC)