Talk:Mariah Carey/Archive 11

Singer-songwriter
The term "singer-songwriter" is very different to listing "singer, songwriter" as separate occupations. The first few sentences of the singer-songwriter page show that Carey is not a singer-songwriter:


 * Singer-songwriters are musicians who write, compose and perform their own musical material including lyrics and melodies. As opposed to contemporary pop music singers who write or co-write their own songs, the term singer-songwriter describes a distinct form of artistry, closely associated with the folk-acoustic tradition.

As explained, this is a person who writes, composes and performs their own musical material. Carey does all of these, even on her first six studio albums, with asssitance from other songwriters and producers, which is not in accordance with the term's distinct form where a person almost always composes alone (see the likes of Bob Dylan or Joni Mitchell). Nor does Carey follow the stylistic conventions of the artistry (typically an instrumentalist with understated production, see AllMusic's definition). —JennKR | ☎ 21:53, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes you are correct JennKR. None of the contemporary singers also can be listed as singer-songwriter. — Indian: BIO  · [ ChitChat ] 07:03, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * JennKR, I think you are quite misinformed about Carey. To say "As explained, this is a person who writes, composes and performs their own musical material. Carey does all of these, even on her first six studio albums, with asssitance from other songwriters and producers" is not correct. On her first six albums, Mariah is credited as the sole songwriter for 99% of her songs, and she also co-composed all of their melodic structures. She continues to co-write the lyrics and melodies to all of her songs to this day. Out of any contemporary singer to day, with the exception of Madonna, too, Mariah Carey is a singer-songwriter. Carey isn't just a contemporary pop singer who writes or co-writes her own songs as in a sentence or two like most singers (Katy Perry), Carey does indeed write, compose and perform the lyrics and melodies that she performs. What makes Madonna, Taylor Swift and Adele different? —  ₳aron  15:31, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Adele and Madonna indeed are singer-songwriters, where people like Lady Gaga, Jessie J, and Katy Perry are singers and songwriters for co-writing their material (though in their cases more than just a sentence or two) and have written songs for other singers (i.e. Gaga co-wrote "Hypnotico" by Jennifer Lopez, Jessie co-wrote "Party in the USA" for Miley Cyrus, KP co-wrote "Passenger" by Britney Spears and "Black Widow" by Iggy Azaela). There are also songs they have written solely by themselves ("You and I" by Gaga, "Big White Room" by Jessie, "Thinking of You" by KP). If one thing is certain, it gets confusing when talking about those who are singer-songwriters and those who are singers and songwriters. Mariah also co-wrote for the band Allure.  Snuggums ( talk  /  edits ) 16:05, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I think of Gaga and Jessie as singer-songwriters, but not Katy Perry. I'm skeptical about how much of her Dr. Luke produced songs she actually writes. Mariah Carey is a singer-songwriter. —  ₳aron  16:08, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * No, they are singers and songwriters, not singer-songwriters as they don't do as much writing, composing, etc. as people like Madonna. I could be wrong, but once heard that songwriters are listed in song infoboxes in order of who wrote the most, and producers are listed in order of who produced the most. If this is the case, then KP writes more of her songs than the others involved since she gets listed first in songwriters field, no matter how often Dr. Luke appears. Same idea for Mariah's articles where she is listed first in the field. KP also solely wrote six of her songs on Katy Hudson and three of her tracks on One of the Boys. There's also the songs she co-wrote for others, which also includes Selena Gomez & The Scene, Jessie James, Kelly Clarkson, and Leslie Roy. This is not guaranteed to total above 50% for someone who is listed first, though.  Snuggums ( talk  /  edits ) 16:25, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Carey isn't credited as the sole songwriter or producer of any song on her first six albums (see Mariah Carey, Emotions, Music Box, Merry Christmas, Daydream and Butterfly, where every song is composed with another person). Compare this with a true singer-songwriter, like Bob Dylan or Joni Mitchell; their discographies show that almost all songs are written, composed and performed by themselves. This is, of course, not an absolute rule, singer-songwriters are going to collaborate with others on their songs, but it is expected that most of their material is to be written, composed and performed by themselves. I think it's also important this term isn't interpreted narrowly in the fields of writing and composition. The Wikipedia article explains that a "singer-songwriter" isn't someone who simply writes and performs their own songs, its a distinct form of artistry within the folk/acoustic tradition with particular stylistic conventions that can almost be seen as a genre of music in itself. The page explains "[the term] "singer-songwriter" is used to define popular music artists who write and perform their own material, which is often self-accompanied generally on acoustic guitar or piano. Such an artist performs the roles of composer, lyricist, vocalist, instrumentalist, and often self-manager. [...] lyrics are personal, but veiled by elaborate metaphors and vague imagery [...] [the production is] similarly straightforward and spare sound that placed emphasis on the song itself." AllMusic writes that "singer/songwriter refers to the legions of performers that followed Bob Dylan in the late 60s and early 70s. Most of the original singer/songwriters performed alone with an acoustic guitar or a piano but some had small groups for backing."
 * Carey isn't involved in the folk/acoustic tradition, she doesn't play guitar or piano when composing her songs and she hasn't written or produced any song by herself. These are all the typical conventions of a singer-songwriter and Carey doesn't fit them. Also, I've noticed that the credentials of other artists have been questioned, and I think they're right to be questioned, however, this is a discussion about what Carey is and I think this discussion should focus on that. If it is believed this term is being attributed wrongly to others then a similar discussion should be taken to that talk page, or perhaps a project-wide discussion should be initialised with WP:POPMUSIC or WP:MUSIC? I know that myself, and I'm sure others, would be happy to weigh in on further discussions on this issue. Best, —JennKR | ☎ 17:26, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * (I'm apologising now for the length of the above, but this is quite complex.) —JennKR | ☎ 17:30, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Gaga definitely comes up with those wacky melodies. And lol, writers are not listed in the info box per how much they contributed. JennKR, please educate yourself about Carey and her music. Buy the CDs for Emotions, Music Box, Daydream and Butterfly, look in the booklet and you will see that aside from eight songs, excluding covers of course, that Carey wrote all of the lyrics for all of the other songs by herself, and co-composed the melodic structures to each and every one of them (List of songs recorded by Mariah Carey). Carey has also said that she knows how to play a piano but prefers someone else to play it while she conceptualises the melody. You don't need to always have a guitar or piano on stage with you to be a "singer-songwriter", we aren't in the 60s and 70s anymore. The term "singer-songwriter" applies to singers such as Madonna, Adele, Taylor Swift, Mariah Carey, Lady Gaga, Jessie J, Alicia Keys. — ₳aron  20:45, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Then why does the track listing of all six albums listed above not list Carey solely in the "Writers" or "Producers" field for any song? Whether Carey plays the piano in her spare time is irrelevant, its whether she uses it to compose her songs. We may not be in the 60s/70s but the term refers to the tradition of this time, wherein an artist writes, composes and performs their own material by themselves. It does not refer to contemporary pop singers who co-write and co-produce all of their material with others. —JennKR | ☎ 20:57, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Because whoever did them has just combined it and not done it properly. I trust the booklet printed by her record company more than how whoever inputted into the track list table, hence why I linked List of songs recorded by Mariah Carey. It doesn't matter if she directly plays the piano while creating a song, or whether she is instructing someone to play the notes that she is coming up with by humming, singing, etc. According to you, Carey used to be a singer-writer, and is now a singer and songwriter. She may co-write now, but she stills writes, produces, vocal produces, arranges, composes her songs and executively produces her albums. She doesn't let anyone else do something without her involvement. She is more involved with the creative process of making a song than any singer out today. No one else does as much as she does in the studio. The song "Vulnerability (Interlude)" for example was written and produced solely by Carey. —  ₳aron  21:15, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * When I browse ASCAP to compare her songs with their entries in the track listing (I've been comparing two albums I'm familiar with as I own them on casette: Mariah Carey and Emotions), they match up. Every song is written and produced with someone else, and I understand when you say that she is hugely involved in the creative process (I know quite a few similar artists), but this is still not the convention of the traditional singer-songwriter. Hmm, we're not helped by the fact that we have little policy to guide us on what I call "job titles" (singer, songwriter, actress, etc.), and I'm considering creating a music-project wide discussion in which we could weigh in on. —JennKR | ☎ 21:31, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * ASCAP isn't always reliable. I find that the booklets are the best way of gathering info on who did what. I just watched an interview with Mariah where she says that she writes, co-produces, conceptualises, mixes, masters, does 90% of her background vocals, provides the arrangements for the background vocals by herself. She said that she has always written songs, even before getting a record deal. She would sit and write songs and poems, and that was clearly by herself. Mariah is undoubtedly a singer-songwriter. —  ₳aron  21:37, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I've never seen evidence to suggest ASCAP was unreliable, but I'm also not disputing that Carey does the above. What I am disputing is whether Carey should be described as a singer-songwriter because it's not a term that we use to describe someone who simply writes their material. It's something quite distinctive (which I've outlined above) and as she doesn't write or produce by herself (and works with many people each album), nor meets any of the other conventions, she doesn't present herself as one. —JennKR | ☎ 21:51, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Pinging, who often edits articles accordingly to whether people are singer-songwriters/singers and songwriters, for input.  Snuggums ( talk  /  edits ) 22:04, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * She doesn't just write the songs though. Is there any evidence to suggest that people like Bob Dylan everything by himself? Did he produce his vocals? Did he mix the songs? Did he master them? Carey always highlights herself as a singer-songwriter in interviews. In the same interview I just watched, she picked out how in a magazine she was featured in, she was simply referred to as a 'singer', which angered her, and that P Diddy was referred to as a musician, actor, businessman, philanthropist, clothing designer etc. Mariah identifies as a singer-songwriter. Gaga once said "I'm a songwriter at heart". —  ₳aron  22:09, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I've opened a RfC here to gage community opinion. To be honest, I think discusion should go beyond this RfC into creating more definitive guidelines around "job titles" and I hope the decision goes some way in grounding what terms we use. —JennKR | ☎ 22:36, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the late reply to the ping. Since Mariah is not "...closely associated with the folk-acoustic tradition.", I would just list her as a singer and a songwriter, rather than a singer-songwriter. Acalamari 14:49, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Featured article status
This article was used as an example of poor quality at WP:BLPN recently and I popped over to take a look. I was shocked at how poor it is. It is way too long and detailed, with an over-abundance of trivial quotes and inessential information. It looks like it has been written by fans. I have not yet looked at whether it passed FAC in 2007 looking like this, or whether it was better and has deteriorated. In any case it certainly does not currently meet Featured Article criteria. Is there any appetite for getting it (back?) in shape? Or should we look at a Featured Article Review? --John (talk) 09:22, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


 * From my experience, I would assume (and conversations upthread on talk suggest as much) that it's both. The FA criteria were more lax in 2007, and the subject's high profile means it is a magnet for IPs to wander in and add whatever they feel like, whether or not it actually improves the article. I believe, who recently took Katy Perry through FA, has already made a start of trimming some of the cruft out, and is continuing to do so. I'm sure they'd be up for help in getting it back into shape. Perhaps a delist and a GA review would work? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  09:27, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. My preference would be for just improving the article without a lot of bureaucracy, but it will be a lot of work. --John (talk) 09:44, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I would say that a format FAR would be beneficial for the article. I do see users posting here regarding explicit aversion towards the book sources being used and two of them are questioning the reliability of the authors. — Indian: BIO  · [ ChitChat ] 09:58, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


 * We just discussed the article size at above; like I stated there, "The article size looks to be of usual, or close to usual length, for a singer with Carey's success (legend and all that). And there are articles on Wikipedia bigger than this one." As for the article being poor, it isn't; not even close. But I'll leave the changes to this article for others to handle. I mainly have it on my WP:Watchlist to look out for the birthdate drama that keeps coming up at this article. Flyer22 (talk) 10:39, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Flyer22, you are right, the article is definitely not poor, however, for FA we must maintain a high high standard, which sadly the article has lost over time. That's what we are trying to achieve. Reducing the fluff goes a long way to improve the size, that is not related to article size. — Indian: BIO  · [ ChitChat ] 11:37, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Like Ritchie333 mentioned above, the WP:FA standards were different back in 2007. Either way, the level of quality that is this article is what I generally see all around Wikipedia regarding WP:GA or WP:FA WP:BLP singer articles. The discussion John is talking about is a heated discussion, and it's bound to have editors going to articles that are pointed out there, including to make a point opposite of what is pointed out there. Flyer22 (talk) 11:49, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


 * As Ritchie and Flyer have indicated, FA and GA criteria were much less demanding several years ago. This passed an FAC in 2006 and survived 2 FAR's in 2007. Upon looking through the references, I'm not seeing too many issues with quality level except for Fox News and New York Post, which I'm certain would not be accepted in FAC's nowadays. Several aren't quite correctly formatted, and I haven't yet checked for deadlinks, but I do believe this article is salvageable unlike John Mayer (hence I raised this FAR as it is beyond repair). Thank you IndianBio for helping reduce the fluff.  Snuggums ( talk  /  edits ) 15:39, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Well said SNUGGUMS, and good work indeed IndianBio for reducing the amount of cruft somewhat. It still needs some work I think. References cleanup, fewer and shorter quotes, and a further cull of fancruft and this article will be worthy of its star. --John (talk) 16:36, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


 * On a side note, may I recommend any serious article writer installs User:Ucucha/HarvErrors - if you use sfn or harvnb, they are an invaluable tool for spotting obvious reference howlers (eg: wrong year, typo in surname, year missing etc). Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  20:46, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much Ritchie- looks very useful indeed!  Snuggums ( talk  /  edits ) 20:49, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


 * SNUGGUMS, you think that Fox News and New York Post would not be accepted in a WP:FA today? Why do you feel this way? I know that people have issues with those sources, but they often count as WP:Reliable sources...even in WP:BLPs. Flyer22 (talk) 22:45, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


 * While not always deemed unreliable, they aren't exactly top-notch. NY Post is often regarded as one of the least reputable papers in the state, and Fox News is often criticized for creating hoaxes about liberals (notably Barack Obama). They might or might not be accepted in WP:GA's, but WP:FA demand the best possible quality sources.  Snuggums ( talk  /  edits ) 22:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Good explanation; I agree. And for the record, I was also taking uncontentious material into account when I commented about Fox News and New York Post above. Flyer22 (talk) 22:57, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Criterion 1c. Sources like that wouldn't be considered adequate for an FA in 2014, especially not a BLP. --John (talk) 23:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I would again like to bring everyone's attention to this section about the Chris Nickson source which is a primary content addition. Can we please get this book clarified as an authoritative source? — Indian: BIO  · [ ChitChat ] 11:45, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll search Chris Nickson's background and find some alternative sources in case his 1998 biography on her isn't usable.....  Snuggums ( talk  /  edits ) 03:07, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
 * If Nickson is found to be unreliable then this article is kinda gone. 90% of the background and many of the articles in WP:MARIAH project is based on his book. :( — Indian: BIO  · [ <b style="font-family:Tempus Sans ITC;color:#1C1CF0;">ChitChat</b> ] 04:11, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I haven't reached reliability conclusions yet, but will note this: there are currently 357 footnotes. Out of these, 39 are from Nickson's book. Not sure yet if that would be worrisome.  Snuggums ( talk  /  edits ) 04:29, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Snuggums, its not the number of times its been used, its the amount of content that it is being sourced, that is huge. And for this reason I'm letting it spill to the song articles also which rely on the book. Worrisome nonetheless. LEt us know what you can find. — Indian: BIO  · [ <b style="font-family:Tempus Sans ITC;color:#1C1CF0;">ChitChat</b> ] 04:35, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Good news; after looking through his works, I don't really see things to be worried about. Some might view him as biased for his praise of her, but it isn't really a biased book as far as I'm concerned.  Snuggums ( talk  /  edits ) 06:46, 28 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Even if Chris Nickson is biased as a source, that, per WP:BIASED, does not disqualify him as a source. And as for the birth date matter, SNUGGUMS, considering past passionate debate about Carey's birth date at this talk page, including the WP:RfC currently shown above, I'm not sure that two sources for each is enough. Then again, we could simply point to that aforementioned WP:RfC when someone challenges including both birth dates. Flyer22 (talk) 08:30, 28 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Also, the Parade magazine source is currently a WP:Dead link. And I would have left in the People magazine source, which went through extra lengths to validate Carey's birth date. People magazine is one of the more reputable sources on this matter, and, in 2013, was deemed a more than adequate source for celebrity information at the WP:Reliable sources noticeboard. Its reliability is also noted in that aforementioned WP:RfC above. Flyer22 (talk) 08:44, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
 * While the People website does suggest a 1969 birth, I can find no article by them talking about looking into her records or even any photos of them. The only site I've seen talk about them searching records is NNDB, which has been declared unreliable in multiple RSN conversations.  Snuggums ( talk  /  edits ) 15:45, 28 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I did notice that Tenebrae was pointing to the NNDB source as supporting what People magazine did, and I was already aware of the various discussions about NNDB at the WP:Reliable sources noticeboard, but I figured that its use must be an exception in this case, since it was used in combination with the People source in the Mariah Carey article without any objection from very experienced Wikipedia editors. I also considered that Tenebrae might have a better source supporting People magazine going the extra length to validate Carey's birth date. I would ask Tenebrae about this, but he or she has not been editing Wikipedia (at least under the Tenebrae account) since he or she was temporarily blocked months ago. Flyer22 (talk) 23:19, 28 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I doubt this would make a very compelling exception; as I previously told Tenebrae, NNDB could easily have been fabricating details given its unreliability. Something tells me viewers previously overlooked the NNDB link and assumed that the quote was from the People website.  Snuggums ( talk  /  edits ) 23:33, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Ethnicity
I know that Mariah has stated that her father is half Venezuelan but according to these two links - http://www.wargs.com/other/carey.html & https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X42X-3B5, her paternal grandfather was from Cuba and likely lied about his background to avoid anti-Cuban backlash. Ayamih (talk) 14:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It does say that he was born in Cuba in the first link you provided; I was unable to connect to the second site. I don't think there is any doubt that he lived in Venezuela for probably the bulk of his life prior to coming to the US. If it seems relevant to Mariah, the fact that her dad was born in Cuba but lived in Venezuela could be added——though, I'd probably add it as a note at the bottom of the page, if anywhere.  Considering her dad was not a major player in her life, nor are the finer details of his heritage particularly relevant to who she is, I would not include it in the body of the article.--Esprit15d • talk • contribs 14:22, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Adult contemporary?
Those who adding adult contemporary music (which is a style, not a genre) in the infobox from Mariah's song information pages. She had nothing to do with AC. 183.171.180.27 (talk) 05:51, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Request for Comment consensus on contradictory date of birth
The final consensus as closed by an admin is archived here. --Tenebrae (talk) 23:48, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2015
Fabiangomez80 (talk) 17:03, 4 February 2015 (UTC) On the Discography section can the #1's album be added in for the year 1998?


 * only the studio albums are listed in that section, #1's was not a studio album <b style="color:#454545">Snuggums</b> <b style="color:#454545">(talk</b> <b style="color:#454545">/</b> <b style="color:#454545">edits</b>) 17:26, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

net worth
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2895007/A-dance-club-vanity-4-TVs-look-inside-Mariah-Carey-s-1-8M-two-storey-skyscraper-wheels.html

77.44.219.42 (talk) 18:49, 4 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Daily Mail is not a reliable source. <b style="color:#454545">Snuggums</b> (<b style="color:#454545">talk</b> / <b style="color:#454545">edits</b>) 20:07, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

net worth http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/6334796/madonna-paul-mccartney-worlds-richest-list — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.44.187.123 (talk) 20:14, 5 February 2015 (UTC)