Talk:Mariah Carey/Archive 13

Birth date
Her mother stated on Oprah that she was born in 1970. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNnyGcVk0Oo

Should the page be changed to state that she was born in 1970 with a footnote that some sources say 1969? Brucester4 (talk) 23:08, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
 * That's probably not WP:RS but looking at the existing sources it seems clear 1970 is best-supported, with most weight on the biography. The others are news articles and only list her age, not birth date. Qzd (talk) 22:17, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
 * There was a previous RfC about this here. Qzd (talk) 22:59, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Unless she wants to provide her birth certificate it is hard to prove, on balance of probabilities she was probably born in 1970 though.Brucester4 (talk) 21:19, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

[quote]on balance of probabilities she was probably born in 1970 though.[/quote]
 * Are we still discussing this? And from what? Your opinion Brucester4? Just because her mother said she was born in 1970, does not necessarily mean she was telling the truth. And you people would ask yourselves, "why would she lie", as fans or they do know, her family is dysfunctional troublednbored (talk) 03:24, 26 December 2015 (UTC)


 * While it's perfectly understandable why one would base 1970 off of that video, this has been contested in the past due to a number of highly reputable sources supporting a 1969 birth, and Patricia's word has been deemed subpar in comparison. I personally have seen many more references (credible ones of course) support a 1970 birth, but there has been long-standing consensus to include references for both years. A new RFC with strong evidence for a 1970 birth would be needed in order to only use that within the article. Snuggums (talk / edits) 03:55, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Discrepancies between number of Billboard Music Awards
Hey folks. So in this article we list 14 BMA, yet here on Carey's awards page we have I believe 32 accounted for (which was always the figure used here until recently). Any thoughts on what course of action to take? Cheers.-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk2Me   06:27, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I believe some of them are not exactly awards, but many of them are year end lists on which Carey topped a lot. — Indian: BIO  [ ChitChat  ] 09:39, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 January 2016
For Mariah's Personal Life subheading As of June 2015, Carey is dating Australian businessman James Packer SOURCE: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3133310/They-looked-like-normal-couple-Mariah-Carey-James-Packer-seen-looking-relaxed-happy-romantic-date-night-Capri.html

203.116.29.210 (talk) 11:40, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Daily Mail is not considered a reliable source, and I'm not sure what they have is even worth mentioning in the article to begin with Snuggums (talk / edits) 15:29, 6 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I do think it is time to include her relationship with Packer. Forgetting the hackjob site DM, there are plenty of reliable sources and even actual comments made by Carey regarding her "new man". With the appropriate sources, I think it's more than warranted at this point-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk2Me   23:43, 6 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I would say lets wait for some sort of statement from Carey should we? — Indian: BIO  [ ChitChat  ] 10:48, 7 January 2016 (UTC)


 * http://www.people.com/article/mariah-carey-lucky-to-be-dating-james-packer-steve-harvey If her gushing over it in an interview with People isn't enough of a statement then I don't think we'll be including it until they are engaged or married if it comes to that ;-P-- Peter Griffin  &bull;  Talk2Me   12:56, 7 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I get what you are saying PeterG, I truly believe she is happy dating James. But I don't know, it seems WP:TOOSOON? For me personally its still in kind of a "fling" territory. — Indian: BIO  [ ChitChat  ] 13:14, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Adding Jay Z to associated acts?
Should it be necessary to add Jay Z to Carey's associated acts list? Mariah and Carter first worked each other in 1999 with her No. 1 hit single "Heartbreaker". That same year, they also collaborated on "Things That U Do" from Vol. 3... Life and Times of S. Carter (1999). It appeared eminent that both Mariah Carey and Jay Z were pretty good friends when they also performed live her Homecoming Special.

Carter and Mariah Carey reunited in 2002 to record "You Got Me" for her 2002 effort Charmbracelet after they both coincidentally released their last records Glitter and The Blueprint on September 11, 2001. As Mariah Carey left Virgin Records America after a $100+ million deal that went nowhere, she signed with Def Jam Recordings in 2002, a label that a past peer coincidentally is also signed to.

L.A. Reid whom was temporarily the CEO of the label was struggling, needed advice from Mariah for what he had to do for Def Jam's success:

“Coming into the label [Def Jam] and really sort of reading the tea leaves, I knew that I needed help. You know, I got the advice from Mariah Carey. I asked her, ’What should I do?’ She said, ’Hire Jigga!'”

He continued, “She said, ’You know there’s only one person?’ I was like ’Who?’ She said, ’Jay Z.'”.

Thanks to Mariah Carey's advice, L.A. Reid temporarily stepped down as CEO of Def Jam and hired Jay Z in 2004, whom founded success with the acts of Kanye West and Rihanna. In 2008, Carey and Jay Z once again collaborated on a remix of "Bye Bye" that was a moderate hit.

I believe that Jay should definitely be included in Mariah Carey's associated acts list, because of their huge friendship.troublednbored (talk) 20:22, 15 January 2016 (UTC)


 * While their work might be enough to include him, friendship is not in itself a valid reason for inclusion. Snuggums (talk / <b style="color:#454545">edits</b>) 20:27, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Meanwhile, should we add him or not? troublednbored (talk) 22:05, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

RfC: Are "African American" categories supported by sources and policy?
I'm curious if the community actually agrees that these categories are legitimate on this and similar articles. Some of the potential issues raised: These are general concerns, not limited to Carey's case in particular. In short, I'm skeptical we'd ever categorize someone as a "Jewish American whatever" on the basis of partial ancestry and a few sources engaging in such labelling, absent unequivocal use/acceptance of such a label by the subject, at least for a WP:BLP.
 * Nothing in this article's sourced content suggests that Carey actually self-identifies as African-American, only that she's said that being of mixed ethnic background caused familial tensions and some social challenges growing up.
 * Reaching from such a statement to an assumption about how Carey identifies and should be categorized (i.e. labelled by Wikipedia) may be novel analysis and interpretation.
 * This is especially risky, and countermanded, in a biography of a living person.
 * It may also even advance the controversial, anti-scientific, and politically loaded "one-drop rule" in Wikipedia's own voice.
 * Most Americans with diverse ethno-cultural backgrounds do not self-identify as, and resist pigeonholing as "an anything" in particular and singularly.
 * It's noteworthy that we have not categorized this subject as a "Venezuelan American singer-songwriter" or more generally a "Hispanic American singer-songwriter", nor as an "Irish American singer-songwriter", or anything else.
 * It may not be sufficient that some sources might want to label Carey in particular ways for their own reasons and in their own contexts.
 * Wikipedia is not a genealogy work; pigeonholing subjects with iffy micro-categorization trivia representing everyone's ancestral heritage in detail is not relevant to WP's encyclopedia mission and purpose.
 * This may raise similar concerns to categorizing someone who is in a heterosexual [or homosexual, take your pick] marriage as "bisexual" just because they said they once had a homosexual [or hetero, if you want to reverse it] encounter.
 * Singling out "Africanness" as something to especially categorize seems inappropriate dwelling, whether it's being done for positive or negative reasons.

— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  22:19, 28 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion is an extension of Talk:African Americans. A WP:Permalink for it is here. I noted there, among other things, that "Carey identifies as African American, is part African American, and a variety of WP:Reliable sources state that she's African American; that's how she counts as African American." I think that this WP:RfC SMcCandlish started is more so a matter for the WP:BLPCAT and WP:ETHNICRACECAT talk pages; I'll go ahead and alert those talk pages to this discussion. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:44, 28 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Alerted here and here. And for the relevant video clips where Carey and/or her mother comment on Carey's "race"/ethnicity, see here (starting at 1:04) and here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:56, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * She never id her self as an African American Person, UNLESSS a reliable source says that she is or a birth certificate says this then it may be included in this article other wise no. RFS member Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ (talk) 20:20, 4 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Zppix, what are you basing "She never id her self as an African American Person" on? I've read sources over the years (including WP:Reliable ones) that state that she identifies as African American and/or with African American culture. And in the first video clip above, it is somewhat acknowledged when she states that "In the U.S., I'm black." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:00, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Two points should probabely be made, so that people are not talking past each other: 1) African Americans have a "complex genetic makeup" and 2) African American is also cultural: "Although racially mixed, most blacks in the United States are physically distinguishable from whites, but they are also an ethnic group because of the distinctive culture they have developed within the general American framework." Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:33, 29 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Alanscottwalker, thanks for that. I stated similarly at my talk page. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:46, 29 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Support category the RS support her being African American. If people need proof, her father is African-American and I don't know how someone who has one parent that is either black (or Asian) is not also considered that. IMO Wentworth Miller should also be categorized African American. Sorry Rachel Dolezal, you don't get to choose your ethnicity. It seems like people are going based on how they look rather than the RS, which is not neutral.  —Мандичка YO 😜 01:46, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Support adding category. If her father's ethnicity is African American, which is supported in multiple reliable sources, then that would make her African American. I think its pretty simple. Meatsgains (talk) 17:52, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Support She is the daughter of a white woman and a black man; she's as black as President Obama. https://books.google.com/books?id=xcwDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q&f=false Let's please not descend into colorism. Steeletrap (talk) 22:28, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Support the use of the categories (and any other reference to her status as an African American) in-so-far as they are supported by WP:Reliable sources. The standard we are meant to apply here is not original research concerning what we personally think of the social constructs which go into delineating race (be they sometimes perplexing), nor are we meant to be applying our own rational as to how they apply to individuals.  Rather we are meant to only be relaying what reliable sources say about the subject--and it is unambiguous in this instance that a large number of reliable sources regard Ms. Carey as African-American.  Remember, the standard is WP:Verifiability, not WP:TRUTH.  Meaning no offense to SMcCandlish's clearly good-faith inquiry here, but pretty much every policy or guideline they referenced points us in the same direction here: MOS:IDENTITY tells us to utilize identity descriptors which appear in reliable sources rather than those preferred by the subject themselves; WP:NOR tells us not to utilize our own interpretation of the nature of the subject, but instead, again, the perspectives found in reliable sources; WP:BLP explicitly allows for this form of categorization (as does WP:ETHNICRACECAT);  WP:NPOV once again requires us to avoid attaching our own perspectives (on race or any other matter) to the subject and rather to rely on what reliable sources say about how the subject intersects with those topics; WP:SOAPBOX tells us not to make personal ideological stands via content, but rather to apply policy indifferently to the sources and the content; WP:NOT has nothing to do with how we treat race and ethnicity on this project, it is a subsection of WP:NOT that explains that we do not host elaborate family histories beyond the notable members of a family.


 * In short, so long as we have sources referring to Ms. Carey as African American, it is completely consistent with every guideline mentioned here (and indeed, any policy which is on point for this topic that I know of) to allow reference to her being of African-American descent, including via categorization. Indeed, it would be unambiguously against the reading of numerous of those policies to censor those details just because some of us might find certain definitions of ethnicity to be empirically non-nonsensical. And believe me, I am amongst those who feel this way, so I understand where SMcCandlish is coming from.  But on Wikipedia, I must abide by WP:V and other standards, even where they clash with my notions of fact.  And under said standards, this is quite simply a WP:SNOW issue.  That's not to say the project's approach to these situations can't change, but that would be a conversation that would have to take place at the relevant policy pages (WP:ETHNICRACECAT, WP:BLP) and/or in central community discussion (WP:VPP, WP:CD) in order to effect a change.  The policies and community consensus as they currently stand leave little doubt as to how we should apply them to this article. ( S n o w  let's rap 08:58, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Her father is a Latino Venezuelan, not an african american. Carey also has a white mother. For this same dumb argument, she should also be included in White Americans article--Vvven (talk) 23:30, 20 December 2015 (UTC)


 * This is not the place to discuss Ms. Carey's presence in another article. That discussion should proceed in the relevant article. However, I can tell you that your thorough conviction and assertion that your reading of the facts is the only true one is not likely to be very compelling here--no matter how passionately you feel about the matter--unless you can provide sources that explicitly state that Ms. Carey is not African American, such that outweigh those which say she is of this ancestry.  Please see WP:Verifiability, WP:No original research, and WP:Verifiability not truth.  On this project we do not apply our views as to the facts, nor do we apply our own internal logic to first-order information in order to deduce new facts, no matter how straight-forward we believe those assumptions to be.  If you find enough sources saying Ms. Carey is not an African American, you will have a case for removing her from that article.  If you find enough sources saying she is a White American, you can add her to that article--it's as simple as that.  We are not here to debate the byzantine and often controversial nature of race descriptors in the English language; once again, on Wikipedia we report what reliable sources say on a subject, not what we have to say about it.  S n o w  let's rap 05:59, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Note: Vvven is coming from this discussion; also see this comment. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:11, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

this comment was wrong, I recognize, but this in this page is not. the way of how to say it does not invalidate the reason --Vvven (talk) 00:23, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Support — Carey: "In this country [U.S.], I'm black." In video clip mentioned above, with nothing she says there in any way deviating from commonly accepted understandings. Unequivocal.--Carwil (talk) 16:33, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 January 2016
Born	March 27, 1970 (age 45) Huntington, New York, US

86.11.106.72 (talk) 12:34, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNnyGcVk0Oo -> Mariah Carey's mother Patricia clearly states Mariah Carey was born in 1970.
 * There have been umpteen discussions on this and unless we can produce something from Carey herself, no it won't be added. — I B  [ Poke  ] 17:10, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 February 2016
Under the Daydream section, the info stating that Mariah's sister Alison died from AIDS, or that One Sweet Day had anything to do with her needs to be removed immediately. There is no factual backup to this..... mainly due to the FACT that she is still alive to this day (2/8/2016). Yes she has AIDS but the info is an unproven fabricated fact that this song had anything to do at all with Alison. Alison is not "Shining down on her from heaven," but most likely from New York...lol!!

FIX IT!!!!!!!

Kona702 (talk) 03:39, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * ✅ thank you for pointing that out <b style="color:#454545">Snuggums</b> (<b style="color:#454545">talk</b> / <b style="color:#454545">edits</b>) 03:53, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 February 2016

 * net_worth      = $520 million (December 2015 estimate)

5.31.20.158 (talk) 14:35, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
 * ❌ No source. — I B  [ Poke  ] 14:49, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 March 2016
Add to the introduction the fact that Mariah Carey is the first Entertainer to popularize fan group names. She called her fans Lambs way before Lady Gaga called her fans Little Monsters or before Katy Perry called her fans Katy Cats. Source: http://www.buzzfeed.com/mariasherm/things-you-might-not-know-about-mariah-carey#.oam3J0WQyW

Jmarcel34 (talk) 17:59, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Not really lead-worthy, and Buzzfeed isn't a reliable source to begin with <b style="color:#454545">Snuggums</b> (<b style="color:#454545">talk</b> / <b style="color:#454545">edits</b>) 19:28, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Request for Comment consensus on contradictory date of birth
The final consensus as closed by an admin is archived here. --Tenebrae (talk) 02:41, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

1969 or 1970
Was she born in 1969 or 1970? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:6001:E790:5800:6507:69A7:5F85:45E9 (talk) 20:57, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I personally have seen more support for 1970, but it's overall disputed since sources vary on the year. <b style="color:#454545">Snuggums</b> (<b style="color:#454545">talk</b> / <b style="color:#454545">edits</b>) 21:04, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

Mariah says she is 20 when his 1st album was released !!!
Mariah' first album was released June 12, 1990 --> Mariah Carey In this interview from youtube his first album has been released and she is 20, NOT 21. If she was born March 27, 1969, in this interview, made after June 12 1990 she would be at least 21. SECOND. At about 2 min 31 sec Mariah say something like "i was 19 when it was released...No, I was 20 when it was released, 19 when I recorded it". HENCE if his FIRST album was rleased June 12, 1990 and she was born March 27, 1969 --> Why did she say 19 then 20. IT Would have been 21 she must have said. Contradiction. In math we call that proof by absurd. If she was 20 when his album was released and if she was born March 27, 1969, it means his album was released between March 27 1989 and March 27 1990. But it's 1st album was released June 12 1990. ≠. It simply follows that she was born March 27, 1970. For those who wanted a statement by Mariah here it is at 2min 30 sec. --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_fesQ8ExpA --Danielvis08 (talk) 22:26, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Caught her. troublednbored (talk)
 * Celebrities sometimes lie about their ages or simply get dates confused. That's why we look to objective, third-party journalistic sources such as People, CBS News, and Newsday, the last of which has covered her since she began. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:50, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Change 2001–04 headline slight
I think we should change the headline from "'Glitter, Charmbracelet'', personal and professional struggles" to "Personal and professional struggles. Glitter, and Charmbracelet" because she had the breakdown prior to September 2001 when Glitter material was fully released. Even around the week "Loverboy" was released, she was already writing odd things and was saying off-subject things during interviews. Her father died after she signed to The Island Def Jam Music Group in 2002, which loss is a part of human life but her mental state and breakdown was more notable and remembered, which is why it should be listed first before her 2001 and 2002 releases. troublednbored (talk) 02:18, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Request for Comment consensus on contradictory date of birth
The final consensus as closed by an admin is archived here. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:57, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Pleas she is also Gospel & Jazz singer ( she have songs from this, genre) and now she have 520+ million$...and she born at 1970 here mom saying this in Interview in youtube
Please Orb087 (talk) 23:45, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Please read umpteen discussions on this. Search the archives above. — I B  [ Poke  ] 08:30, 21 June 2016 (UTC)