Talk:Maximus the Confessor

Universal Salvation?
I have an objection to how there are no qualifications to the statement "Maximus, like Origen and St. Gregory of Nyssa, believed in apokatastasis..." One of the sources given to support this statement goes as follows:

"St. Maximus the Confessor seems to have subscribed to a mild form of the teaching during his early years, though he later significantly revised Origenist ideas as he elaborated his own highly influential theology."

Should that not be mentioned? Of course, it would be preferable if we had any actual writings or saying of Maximus as a source, since none of the 3 sources given have that. But I think it's misleading to reference a source as evidence when, if we are to trust that source in the first place (as we must if we reference it here) we must also trust the significant qualification that it gives to Maximus' belief in universal salvation. Tix (talk) 19:44, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Urgent Protection
Someone had put an extremely objectionable picture on this page. I request protection on an urgent basis 69.151.26.36 15:19, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Quotes
I am moving these unreferenced quotes here. They would add to the article, but unfortunately, whomever found them did not provide citations for them. Please add citations if you know where they came from. -- Pastordavid 03:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

He is said to have exclaimed: "I have the faith of the Latins, but the language of the Greeks."His remarks in 634 are very revealing of the nature of the invading Saracen forces, which he describes as being Jewish, providing first-hand corroboration for the thesis of modern historians who have determined that Islam began as a Judeo-Christian sect.


 * What could be more dire than the present evils now encompassing the civilized world? To see a barbarous nation of the desert overrunning another land as if it were their own, to see our civilization laid waste by wild and untamed beasts who have merely the shape of a human form. These “beasts are Jews and followers of Antichrist. Repentance by Christians is what is needed to repulse the invaders.
 * Letter written from Alexandria between 634 and 640.

Peer Review
I have requested a peer review of this article, looking for ways to improve it. Comments can be left on the peer review page. Thanks, -- Pastordavid 10:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

GA nom on hold
Very good article. I almost passed it, but I would like to see a little clarification/expansion. The article is well-reference and well-written. However, there is a grammatical error in the first line of the "Trial and exile" section. The "legacy" section should be expanded. It says he has been overlooked in the West until recently. How has he been recognized in recent years, by whom and in what context? Also in what year was he sainted? Besides these few minor points, it's a good article. Address these concerns and leave a message here when completed and the review will procede. If nothing is done in a reasonable period of time the article could fail it's nomination.--William Thweatt Talk | Contribs 05:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Fixed the grammatical error. Mrhsj 06:28, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I have added a para. on Maximus' veneration/acclamation (he is a pre-congregation saint in the Western tradition; i.e., no formal process of beatification/canonization), as well as noting those facts in the info box. So as not to distract from the primary content of the article, I include detailed info about the east/west differences in the notes.  -- Pastordavid 00:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Recognized as a Good Article
Thanks to everybody for your work so far. Some ways to further improve the article might include expansion of the "legacy" section to include any modern studies, opinions, etc. concerning his relevance to the modern Christian and some general fleshing out of the details of the other sections.--William Thweatt Talk | Contribs 03:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

His death
Is it proper to state that Maximus died of "natural causes" after being "tortured, having his tongue cut out and his right hand cut off"? (I suspect that by "natural causes" this is in contrast to death from murder.) Considering his age, I'd have to suspect that the physical abuse he received must have contributed to his death. I suspect that it would be better to simply write that he died. -- llywrch 04:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Also in this area he is noted "having his tongue cut out, so he could no longer speak his rebellion", which I guess the last part is a quote, because it is not a very encyclopedic term, so either should be clearly marked as a quote, or some other more neutral term used. --81.150.229.68 14:21, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Why not simply "so he could no longer speak," to sound less like hagiography? -- OtherDave 19:38, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * But for once, we are writing about a saint. MaxVeers 22:48, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * True enough -- though I was using hagiography in the sense of unthinking adulation. I think it's good to give the reader some credit (or some space to make up his or her own mind).  Just a suggestion.  I realize you have plenty of work to undo article-of-the-day damage. -- OtherDave 10:45, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Dead external links found
Two (2) links were detect as requiring assistance, Catholic Forum and Maximus Confessor returned a HTTP 404 status message. —Dispenser 19:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Various Qs from a casual reader
The current lead says "his positions eventually resulted in exile, soon after which he died." As I read the full article, I'm not sure how many exiles there were.

The Trial and exile section says Maximus was "brought back" to Constantinople, then "sent back into exile for four more years." I don't see the word "exile" earlier (though I may have missed it), so I'm unclear how this constitutes "more" years.

When this is clearer, I'd urge reworking the lead slightly along these lines:


 * ''...He was twice tried for [convicted of?] heresy and exiled, dying shortly after the second trial.
 * (This eliminates two instances of "soon after" in adjoining sentences.)

Unrelated Q: in the paragraph about Pope Martin, I'm not sure if I understand the last sentence. I don't know this topic and can't fill in the blanks, so rather that being bold, I'll just ask here whether it not be clearer written something like this:
 * Pope Martin was condemned [by whom?] for [heresy or whatever?], but [rather than 'and'] died before he could be sent to Constantinople, the imperial capital, for trial.
 * (In the following paragraph, I'd then drop "the imperial capital of" since it comes one sentence after the previous mention.)

...could have sworn I signed that. Sorry. -- OtherDave 14:45, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

New source
I recommend that this article incorporate the in-depth discussion of Maximus in the following source, which incorporates new insights with older ones not accessible in English-language sources. This article is relatively brief, and could be much expanded by utilizing the it. I would do so myself (and may, eventually), but prefer to allow the original contributor(s) to maintain the article at featured status: Savidan 03:12, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ekonomou, Andrew J. 2007. Byzantine Rome and the Greek Popes: Eastern influences on Rome and the papacy from Gregory the Great to Zacharias, A.D. 590-752. Lexington Books.

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Life of the Virgin
No one I know of considers the Life of the Virgin to be an authentic Maximus text. I've put in a reference to the Oxford Handbook of Maximus the Confessor which details why it is considered not to be authentic.

Erenaeoth (talk) 11:17, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Early Life: Constantinople or Palestine
There is currently an ongoing debate as to whether Maximus grew up in Constantinople or Palestine. Pauline Allen and others believe Palestine is more likely, Andrew Louth and others believe Constantinople is more likely. At some point someone should probably add in some clarifications and nuance to the article with references to reflect this.

Erenaeoth (talk) 11:15, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Chapters on Knowledge
In the Writings section, there is no entry for Chapters on Knowledge, and I haven't added it because I haven't found the original title (and there seems to be a couple ways that could have been written in Latin). So perhaps if someone knows the title, they can add the text that is cited widely, including in:

- https://books.google.com/books?id=JKkgCwAAQBAJ&pg=PT106 The End of the Timeless God, Mullins, Oxford U Press, p. 42

- http://www.monachos.net/content/patristics/patristictexts/184#76

- It is referred to as 100 Chapters of Knowledge here: http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2014/01/saint-maximus-confessor-as-model-for.html

- And then all these https://www.google.com/search?q=maximus+the+confessor+"chapters+on+knowledge"

Perhaps "on Knowledge" is the same as the work already listed, Capita theologica et oeconomica (Chapters on Theology and the Economy) because it too had 100 chapters, but that entry indicates that a work of 100 short sayings was not unusual in the time of Maximus. Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host (talk) 16:28, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Dionysius the Areopagite
Please correct me if I am wrong, but when the article discusses Dionysius the Areopagite in:

' It was there that he came under the tutelage of Saint Sophronius, and began studying in detail with him the Christological writings of Gregory of Nazianzus and Dionysius the Areopagite.'

It makes a small error. The mystical writings attributed to Dionysius the Areopagite actually come from a 5th or 6th-century writer known as Pseudo-Dionysius who wrote in Saint Dionysius's style.

Minorh (talk) 14:50, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Notice
This just does not read well. There is a paragraph completely unsourced. The Reception is an add decision that could probably get removed. This could just need a huge overhaul. GamerPro64 03:40, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

WP:URFA/2020A
In addition to the comments above, there is MOS:SANDWICH and a large list at Further reading, which suggests the article is not comprehensive. A Featured article review is probably in order here. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  04:13, 22 March 2022 (UTC)