Talk:McNally v R

Thoughts on article
Hi! Let me know if you all have any thoughts on this :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by ‎Heromagnus1 (talk • contribs) 23:32, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Nice article – I've followed this since your Teahouse question. I did some cleanup on the article; let me know if you have any questions.  Also, I noticed a number of articles omit the full stop after R in the title. I double checked at  and it seems to be article title policy to not include the terminal punctuation. Let me know if you'd like me to move (i.e.: retitle) the page. – Reidgreg (talk) 06:55, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
 * BTW, I think this article qualifies for WP:DYK. This puts a fun fact about the article on Wikipedia's Main Page which can attract experienced editors to help improve the article. You would have to nominate it before 20 March. – Reidgreg (talk) 07:00, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much for your comments! I went ahead and moved the page to the new title. I also nominated the article for the Did You Know section-- would love to know your thoughts on my hook when you had a chance! Have a lovely night. Heromagnus1 (talk) 23:38, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you again so much-- I've re-edited my draft of the DYK nomination. Heromagnus1 (talk) 02:29, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
 * FYI, I did some more reference cleanup and removed the external links in the body of the article (so that readers don't accidentally go off-site, we only put external links at the bottom of the article per WP:EL). – Reidgreg (talk) 16:41, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Pronouns
From edit summary by : I made the pronouns for McNally ambiguous because the court records indicate strongly that McNally identified as a transgender man and wanted to use he/him/his pronouns. It does not seem appropriate to refer to McNally as a woman because McNally does not appear to identify as such; it is important to make the distinction that the court considered McNally to be a girl, rather than McNally identifying as such.


 * I can understand the sensitivity of this, and your edit was probably the safest immediate course with BLP concerns. There are some guidelines at  and .  The former notes that articles should reflect the person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources.  This may require close examination of sources.  I recall one source mentioning that McNally "retreated" into their birth gender identity when this went public with the courts, which is apparently a common reaction among young people, so that could complicate matters. I hope to get back to this after checking sources. – Reidgreg (talk) 05:52, 21 March 2022 (UTC)


 * BAILII – Record of the court ruling. Note that court records are primary sources (reliable secondary sources [RSS] are generally preferred in articles). I assume that because it is a legal document, it uses McNally's legal gender: female.
 * Fischel, Screw Consent – I was able to view some snippets at Google Books. Alex Sharpe (2015) adopts this interpretation: “McNally appears to have genuinely identified as male at the time of the offences. [..."]
 * Politics.co.uk – RSS. It notes [McNally told] the court that she felt "more comfortable" as Scott and did not think of herself as a woman. This was in the context of her 3-1/2 year relationship with M.
 * Guardian "Gayle Newland retrial" only brief mention of McNally "masquerading as a man".
 * The Scotsman no mention of subject
 * Guardian "Woman posed as a man" no mention of subject
 * Sharpe "Queering Judgement" (2017) there is uncertainty regarding the precise nature of the defendant’s gender identity [...] there was evidence to suggest that she believed herself to be a transgender man at the time of sexual intimacy with the complainant, albeit she asserted a female gender identity at the time of plea and subsequent appeal. It is because of this latter fact that female pronouns will be used throughout this article. And later In using female pronouns in referring to the appellant, I am simply respecting her assertion of a female gender identity at the time of plea and subsequently.

I feel that Sharpe's position is in line with Wikipedia guidelines. In the absence of any more recent RSS reports on McNally's gender identification and choice of pronouns, McNally's position at appeal, identifying as female, would seem to be the way to present McNally – that or to cautiously remain gender neutral. It would also seem alright to use the names "Justine" and "Scott" as appropriate (i.e.: as in previous versions of the article). What do you think? – Reidgreg (talk) 16:18, 22 March 2022 (UTC)


 * I also was following the example in the academic papers on this subject, since none of them seemed to indicate an interest in obscuring McNally's gender non-conformity, but still used she-her pronouns. But I'm very happy to cautiously remain gender neutral. I'll go ahead and edit in the names / remove pronouns where I can. Heromagnus1 (talk) 14:34, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much @Reidgreg for the extensive research on the sources! I think that my first red flag while reviewing the sources was Sharpe's identification in 2015 that McNally had "appear[ed] to have genuinely identified as male at the time of the offences." Even reading the details of the case, the consistent attempts of McNally to obscure an assigned female at birth identity seemed to strongly indicate that they were trying to live their life as a man and pursue the relationship as a man. With the court case's statement featuring McNally's statement that they did not think of themself as a woman, I can't help but think that this is a situation in which a minor was pressured to conform to an identification that was state-provided for the sake of the clarity of legality. It's intimidating to go in front of a court of law as is, but as a minor and potentially as an identity that is already disproportionately targeted by legislation, I imagine that there was significant fear accompanying McNally's circumstances. I think that it would be wise to maintain neutral pronouns out of respect for the fact that this case occurred when the individual was a minor and had not likely had the opportunity to fully understand or assert their identity yet. It's very interesting that it is difficult to find more information on McNally's present presentation now, especially considering that this case had been addressing when McNally was 17 in 2011, based on the information available. By these estimates, they should be about 28 now. I do wonder if any additional details can be found on the subject somehow. Otherwise, I do maintain the recommendation to use neutral pronouns. StevenOliveGarden (talk) 04:05, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I've actually just been doing some more digging as well; it looks as if McNally "identified as male prior to and at the time of the alleged offences and had indicated a desire to undergo gender reassignment surgery. There is no obvious reason to disbelieve the authenticity of her earlier gender identification (medical evidence suggests a high rate of gender identity persistence after adolescence) and its later countermanding might have been the effect of criminal prosecution and media persecution of the seventeen year old. Retreat into ‘normalcy’ would be easy to understand. Such concerns provide a further objection to these kinds of prosecution. Nevertheless, the defendant’s assertion of a female gender identity at trial served to confound the defence case, leading to the same kind of legal analysis adopted in the Barker and Newland cases." I find it to be particularly notable that they were indicating a desire to acquire gender affirming surgery and I agree with the analysis that the legal pressure likely altered the approach that they took in their identification in the court of law. StevenOliveGarden (talk) 04:10, 26 March 2022 (UTC)