Talk:Michel Suleiman

Name Change
I propose changing the title of this article to Michel Suleiman (I accidently created this) as a Google search of ""Michel Sulaiman" Lebanon army" gets only 546 results (including this page) whereas a search of ""Michel Suleiman" Lebanon army" gets 51,500. Joshdboz 11:52, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that "Sulaiman" should not be kept. But the website names him Michel Sleiman. I think we should go with the name on the official army website. --Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 15:41, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good, I hadn't noticed that one, but it gets a healthy 24,000 hits on Google. If he does eventually become president I'm sure the foreign press will settle on something. Joshdboz (talk) 23:04, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I've just randomly given the article a cleanup - I've standardised on Sulaiman in the text, only because that is the name of the article. If a different spelling, as seems likely, is found to be the most common, then obviously whatever that is should be used consistently throughout, and the article should be moved. Cheers. 4u1e (talk) 16:54, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

The name should be Michel Sleiman, which is the correct name. Please change the name as I am being unable to do so, and redirect Michel Sulaiman to Michel Sleiman. I've also corrected some information, expanded the article and updated it. The only remaining thing to do is to change the name of the article and also of the image to Michel Sleiman. Thank you (I did an extensive investigation on the correct name and biography, so they are reliable) Crimson9 (talk) 20:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I just noticed that on the Lebanese Army website(http://www.lebarmy.gov.lb/english/Commander_12.asp), the name has been changed to Michel Sleiman Crimson9 (talk)
 * You should be able to move it yourself - click on the 'move' tab at the top of the article and follow the instructions. Cheers. 4u1e (talk) 16:42, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The media almost universally spell him Michel Suleiman (which is closer to the standard Arabic pronunciation of the name, Sleiman being closer to the Lebanese dialect pronunciation). I would propose to move the article to that lemma.--84.190.59.134 (talk) 21:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The title for the wikipedia Article says Michel Sleiman where as the rest of the article refers to him as Michel Suleiman. Any particular reason we are doing this, or should this be changed? Thanks. -- OtherAJ (talk) 01:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was move. JPG-GR (talk) 18:24, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Michel Sleiman → Michel Suleiman — the majority of reliable sources in English spell it this way. Sleiman may possibly be the correct transliteration but either way, regardless of what the LAF's website may say, he's generally referred to in English as Michel Suleiman and I'm quite sure that's closer to the Arabic pronunciation than Sleiman. —Yonatan talk 22:51, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.


 * Oppose move. I think primary sources are more likely to be correct in this instance. I was the one who moved it to this title, and that was after a request from a relative of Mr Sleiman. I realise that counts for nothing, though I would argue that for the spelling of a name, we should trust the employer of the subject rather than foreign language newspapers. J Milburn (talk) 23:01, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The question is what is the "correct" spelling - the one the person uses, or the one that is mostly used in writing when referring to him (especially when the latter isn't a blatant mistake). Anyway, the fact that a request was received through OTRS was not clear but I still don't think it should have bearing on the decision (although it can be used to reaffirm the position that this is the spelling he uses). Yonatan talk 23:05, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Apologies, no, not OTRS- it was made informally over IRC, though they said they would contact OTRS if the errors slipped back in to the article. J Milburn (talk) 23:14, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I disagree that it isn't a blatant mistake. If he has a preferred transcription which he considers should apply to English and which may even be used in official English language used by him, then yes, anything else is a mistake. Nil Einne (talk) 16:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 *  Weak support pending more data. The NYTimes and Xinhua spell Suleiman; so does the BBC. There may be a difference between English and French transliterations of Lebanese Arabic; if so, we should use English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:40, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose Several English language sources use Sleiman.   . Even the BBC sometimes use Sleiman . This combined with the fact that he/his family apparently consider the alternative spelling an error in English is enough to make this the better spelling. French doesn't come into it when the family are referring to English, not French. When a person's name can be transcribed in multiple ways, he is the ultimate decider of the most appropriate transcription, and it is almost definite that the vast majority of world authorities would recognise a person's right to choose his name, which includes how his name is transcribed (for example, if he chooses to take UK citizenship, I would expect the UK government would allow him to choose to transcribe his name as Sleiman and this would be how it would be written in his passport, citizenship certificate and other documents associated with him). Note that this is quite different from the case of a pseudonym which reflects a different name, not an erroneous spelling. Note that it's not even clear that the media, e.g. the NYT, the BBC have choosen to ignore his preference, far more likely it is simply ignorance which may change over time. (This is as opposed to things like Burma) Nil Einne (talk) 16:00, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Nil's links are Al-Jazeera (who are likely to roll their own transliteration, without even checking other sources), the Sydney Morning Herald (twice), and the Agence France Press English service. Of these, one is an anglophone source. The complaint in our chat group claims to be from a relative' we cannot know, nor can we know if the real problem is that two branches spell it differently in an alphabet at least somewhat foreign to both of them. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:21, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Support - "Suleiman" is used by the major English-language press, including NYT, WaPo, Chicago Tribune, Telegraph, Times, LA Times, Guardian, WSJ, The Age, National Post, Globe and Mail, ABC, BBC, etc. Biruitorul Talk 02:09, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Also the Independent. We should follow our sources, unless there is clear reason not to. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:03, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * And the Irish Times, and the New Zealand Herald... Biruitorul Talk 22:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Support (with reservations) - Adding to the English media usage, in standard Arabic (e.g. on al-Jazeera) his name is pronounced Suleiman, the shortening of the first syllable being a feature of the Lebanese dialect. (In French he is spelled Sleimane, though.)--84.190.15.75 (talk) 16:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC)butions/84.190.15.75|84.190.15.75]] (talk) 16:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose, the native usage would be with a silent u, so it should be Sleiman. — Nightstallion 15:35, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * What about, well, English usage? Biruitorul Talk 22:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Support, Never ever heard of anyone named Sleiman. Aren't this Wikipedians being excessively correct again, rather than being sensitive to common usage? I would think Suleiman is a pretty common name, and it has always been spelled this way. Though feel free to show me this person's surname is a variant, and you can persuade me to stay with Sleiman. In my opinion it's a bit of a shame this got on First Page without this being resolved. There's already too many instances of Wikipedia being peculiar instead of smooth when it comes to correctness. CapnZapp (talk) 16:26, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:


 * At the very least, the intro should mention in bold both the Sleiman and Suleiman spellings, as the two most common in English. When I first stumbled across this page, since the intro didn't mention the "Suleiman" spelling with which I was familiar, I wasn't actually sure that this was the same person until checking Talk. --Delirium (talk) 23:20, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree with this Nil Einne (talk) 16:14, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * If his surname is the same name as the famous "Suleiman", then this spelling should be used. As it is now, searching on "suleiman" brings up a disambig page that doesn't even list this person.CapnZapp (talk) 09:46, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Spying/terrorism
"Discovering Israeli spying and terrorist networks,"

I believe that he discovered an "Israeli spying network", but did he discover an "Israeli terrorist network"? Which terrorist network would that have been? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.107.0.105 (talk) 09:56, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Notability
This article's notability is dubious--how little time will pass before he passes into history? This hagiography looks like it was written by his Boyscout master. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kimwell (talk • contribs) 18:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think there is any doubt that the president of a major nation passes our notability guidelines. J Milburn (talk) 19:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Though I wouldn't call Lebanon a "major nation". In that region, everything appears to be notable... Whatever I might think about this doesn't matter - this appointment is certainly notable enough; followed by even local press the world over as it is. CapnZapp (talk) 16:31, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

POV
The section I marked is basically copied from and might even be a copyright infringement. It should be using sources other than the LAF website which will obviously glorify him. Yonatan talk 18:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

First of all you're free to add information from other sources, and second the Lebanese Army gave permission for the use of the enitre biography used on the official site so there is no copyright issue. And I don't think there is something that glorifies him, these are facts, you can research and ask about every line in this section to see if they are valid or not, so I don't see based on what you're saying they are glorifying him. The Bared war? The redeployment of the army in the south? The Labbouni flag? These are all dated, documented and known facts. Crimson9 22:42, 11 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crimson9 (talk • contribs)
 * For the permission, there's permissions-en@wikimedia.org. If it hasn't been authorized through there, you can't use it. As for the glorification, after I removed most of it, it isn't there but attributing every action that happened while he was commander of the LAF to him is too much. Who said he came up with the solution to the 2006 Lebanon War. When did he "confront the Israeli Army and support the resistance until the liberation of the south in the year 2000"? Yonatan talk 02:47, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

The article states: "He offered a plan to end the war" and not "came up with a solution" so at least try to read carefully and quote correctly. When did the Lebanese Army confront the Israeli Army? You obviously have no idea about Lebanon or the Lebanese Army plus you're not even lebanese so why don't you try not getting involved in something you don't know. In the last Israeli-Hizbullah war, many army checkpoints where bombed and the Army intervened and fired back, in addition to many previous confrontations between the Lebanese Army and Israeli Army. Crimson9 16:50, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "Military achievements", "Fighting terrorism and extremism" - this reads like a CV, not a neutral biography!203.184.41.226 (talk) 08:32, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

What?
Quote: ''Suleiman was born in Amsheet. He joined the Lebanese Armed Forces in 1967 and went on to graduate from the Military Academy as 2nd Lieutenant in 1988.''

I am not an expert in Lebanese Army, but this can't be true, can it? It took him 20 years to reach the lowest officer rank?? And then, 20 years later he's the superior General?? In Germany, you're promoted to 2nd Lieutenant after 3 years. It may be more in some countries, but never ever 20 years! In 1988, he was 40 years old, so he must have been a Major or Lieutenant Colonel. There's got to be a mistake somewhere.

Presidency: weird vandalism revert
During a vandalism revert, the following line was removed:
 * The priorities of President Suleiman's presidential term were set out clearly, notably:

I understand it's not sourced, and perhaps even biased, but without it the list of priorities following lacks any context and looks out of place. I therefore re-added it. --  oKto  siTe   talk 14:16, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Controversy over Murr 2008 Israeli attack policy
Based on what secondary sources say about 08BEIRUT372 and what the cable itself says, it's not clear if Suleiman voluntarily wished Israel to attack Lebanon and/or wished to allow a limited invasion of Lebanon by Israel. The text of the cable and Murr and Suleiman's relative political/administrative positions meant that in principle it was not up to Suleiman to have an opinion on such a thing (unless the Constitution of Lebanon has something allowing military disobedience in the case that a civilian politician encourages another country's military to attack Lebanon). This is why, for BLP reasons, i have toned down the way that Ya Libnan described the content. The thing more relevant to this article (Suleiman) seems to me that Suleiman was instructed by Murr, and that "Middle East-based, English-language Arab bloggers" reacted strongly. I presume that by now Suleiman must have made some public statements (denial, or stating that he was just following orders, or dismissing Murr from government positions, or totally avoiding the issue?) - anyone with reliable sources on these please add them. In any case, it seems to me that being a senior military commander instructed in a policy to allow a military attack on your own country is obviously a notable event, and it's reliably sourced.

However, i'm not sure whether the subsection title is NPOV enough. And should this go chronologically in an earlier section (March 2008-ish) or in the Presidency section? The instruction by Murr was in March 2008, but the controversy only started in December 2010. Boud (talk) 01:35, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Non-free file problems with File:Lebanesearmyofficialflag.png
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