Talk:Minneapolis/Archive 10

To do
Things that need doing. We've lost time to a sockpuppet farm but we've gained an expert copyediting pass, for which I am grateful.


 * A featured article review is tentatively scheduled for January 2023. After 15 years, a bunch of things will need to be fixed. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:32, 6 December 2022 (UTC)


 * In Minneapolis. Minneapolis led the world in flour milling for 50 years.✅
 * tunnel collapse at St. Anthony Falls in 1869 ✅
 * In Minneapolis. A 2015 report found racial and ethnic minorities in the city were unequal in education, with 15 percent of Blacks and 13 percent of Hispanics holding bachelor's degrees compared with 42 percent of the White population. While the standard of living is rising with incomes among the highest in the Midwest, in 2015, the median household income among minorities was below that of Whites by over $17,000 and the poverty-rate gap between Blacks and Whites was the widest in the US. ✅
 * The section Minneapolis needs sources.✅
 * Replace source: Encyclopedia Britannica, used in the Religion and Economy sections. ✅
 * Replace Dakota dictionary. ✅
 * Restore 2020 census to Demographics, following lead from User:Svenskbygderna.✅
 * Source and rewrite old sentence from Minneapolis: "Minneapolis contended with White supremacy, participated in desegregation and engaged with the civil rights movement; in 1968, the American Indian Movement was founded in Minneapolis."✅
 * Help with about 50 dead links. Link notes here:✅
 * City Pages, the Minneapolis Public Library, Emporis are extinct now. (Today they are Racket and the Hennepin County Library and CoStar). Several dead links to them are not easily replaceable with new sources so I've left them in. Also left dead links to
 * Associated Press Minnesota pronunciation guide. AP tried hard to help us but the maintainer retired in 2020.
 * US Census source for Racial Composition in 1990 (Demographics table)
 * Jewish Community Relations Council (Demographics and Religion)
 * The city's first mosque (Religion)
 * Star Tribune article about Prince (in caption only)
 * Minnesota Business (extinct) and KSTP-TV articles about north Minneapolis (Cuisine)


 * Replace December.com with source for all radio and TV✅
 * North Pine lists TV and radio but probably is no more authoritative than December. Author is at least employed in broadcast field though. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:42, 17 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Capacity of Target Field and Target Center ✅
 * Replace Investopedia as source in Economy per WP:RSP.✅
 * Explain where 40% of school age children are.✅

-SusanLesch (talk) 13:48, 26 June 2022 (UTC) restored SusanLesch (talk) 23:36, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

This was all one huge puppet show? Cheers! 03:52, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

WP:FARGIVEN
We have been discussing a Featured article review for this article for over two years: Compared to earlier times, when all of WP:MINN joined forces to build the most comprehensive collection of FAs for any state, I am saddened to see that in these two years, the needed improvements to avoid a FAR have not occurred, and have been replaced by endless discussion of images (a relatively minor item compared to the necessary text additions). It is not possible for one editor, no matter how hard working, to maintain this article at FA standards in such an environment. Geography/place articles are among the hardest to maintain at FA standard, and a collegial environment is key. Perhaps this list (along with the incompleted from the older lists above) will encourage editors here to better focus their efforts. I will be listing this article at WP:FARGIVEN, which means if the issues indicated in archives, on the To do list, and covered here are not addressed within a few weeks, any editor may submit the article to FAR. My list is not intended to be comprehensive; it outlines only that which I can spot easily and which indicate the article is not at FA standard. From this version. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  02:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Talk:Minneapolis/Archive 7
 * Talk:Minneapolis/Archive 8
 * Talk:Minneapolis/Archive 8
 * Talk:Minneapolis


 * , wondering if you want to jump in here, since this is in your specialty area? Sandy Georgia (Talk)  02:41, 28 January 2023 (UTC)


 * and thank you for your patience. A personal catastrophe prevents my following through with this FAR which until now I'd assumed would be underway. I will add at the risk of WP:CRYBULLYING, my decision rests on unrelenting aggression since 2020 from Magnolia amounting to nearly zero forward motion. A Buzzards-Watch Me Work sockpuppet farm also interferes (one of these engaged Sandy for days last March). I put in a help wanted ad at WikiProject Minnesota. Unless editors step up in the next few weeks—and I think User:Magnolia677 and Buzzards could do this if they tried—we ought to surrender the star. Best wishes. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:14, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
 * How dare you compare me to a sock. This article would still be a brochure for the Tourist Board if not for my efforts to remove the truckloads of puffery and unencylopedic content. You were relentless in taking me to dispute resolution where you nearly always had no support, and often humiliated yourself by insulting those who disagreed with you. I could go on but I don't have the time or crayons to explain it to you. Magnolia677 (talk) 16:01, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I saw no comparison of you to a sock. Please hat this off-topic personalization and take personal issues to user talk. THIS thread will be archived for eternity in articlehistory via the FARGIVEN notice once the FAR is launched, and this content does not belong on article talk.  Please hat everything (including this response from me) beginning after Nikkimaria ping. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  16:40, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Geography
Geology of Minnesota should be added to hatnotes.

Neighborhoods
Minneapolis is divided into eleven communities, each containing several neighborhoods, of which there are 83. In some cases, two or more neighborhoods act together under one organization. Some areas are known by nicknames of business associations.}} In 2018, Minneapolis City Council voted to approve the Minneapolis 2040 Comprehensive Plan, which resulted in a city-wide end to single-family zoning. Minneapolis was the first major city in the United States to make this change.[79]
 * Fails verification (11 is nowhere to be found in the cited sources).
 * Nor does the source say that each community has several neighborhoods (it's possible that one community has one neighborhood?).
 * Nor is there any mention of business associations in the cited sources.
 * Please read the source; this statement is a misrepresentation of the source.

Demographics
For a short period of the 1940s, Japanese and Japanese Americans resided in Minneapolis due to US-government relocations, as did Native Americans during the 1950s. however, immigration of 1,400 Somalis in 2016 slowed to 48 in 2018 under President Trump. Generally, the flow is off ... content is bouncing around too much and needs better organization with topic sentences for paragraphs.
 * Uncited
 * Request quote (mention of Trump comes across as gratuitous, what does the source say?)
 * Added a quote. I think this was fair to mention him. The author cites four headlines after Trump's Minneapolis speech in a further reading paragraph. Added page number for further reading. Does this look OK now? -SusanLesch (talk) 02:50, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * If the source tells you which one it is from List of executive orders by Donald Trump, the actual order can be linked, making the text more specific (hence less gratuitous-feeling). As the content was before, it didn't explain why it decreased; now we have some context, almost there. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  03:09, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The flow of this section still needs work; it needs better paragraph organization with like content combined with topic sentences, and then the image/table layout mess needs to be addressed. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  16:26, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you think it flows better now? I removed an image from 2010, and moved paragraphs into a sensible order. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:18, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * It's better but still a bit wonky; I'll take a closer look, with suggestions and questions, after everything else is more stabilized. (That is, I don't want us to get stalled out in this section for now.). First order for now is to make sure I didn't mess up demographics accuracy. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  22:24, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

thanks for the demographics. Could you please check my adjustments to be sure I did not introduce any inaccuracy when I recast sentences to avoid starting sentences with numbers? Sandy Georgia (Talk)  19:36, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * , not all of the information I added was derived from the 2020 census. Everything except race, ethnicity, and population number was from the 2021 ACS (see the citations I added for more details). Svenskbygderna (talk) 21:37, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * meaning that some of the "according to ... census" I added was wrong? Are you able to easily see which, and recast those to supply a way of starting the sentence ?  Or do I need to review all of them? Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  21:41, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Woops, I goofed too. That new section heading won't work. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:57, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for the census data. I went through the paragraph adding ACS to the publisher (US Census). Also added the year 2021. Going seasick trying to read this stuff but I think we have nailed down the new section and attributed the findings correctly. If you have a moment, can you please double check that this section is all right? Best wishes. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:58, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * For example do we really need two citations for the second sentence in the third paragraph? -SusanLesch (talk) 22:00, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Religion
What makes this a reliable source for the content it is citing?
 * https://web.archive.org/web/20140116195140/http://www.youthresources.ws/history-of-north-mpls/
 * Gloria J. Wiese is a subject matter expert, not an ideal source but needed in an area of scarce study. Solely used to date the city's first mosque to the 1960s. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:00, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
 * you have to be able to back that up per the criteria at WP:SPS (whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications) if someone inquires at the FAR. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  23:25, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I can't find anything to back her up, so will switch to a different source. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:01, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Jim Bakker and Tammy Faye met while attending Pentecostal North Central University, and began a television ministry that by the 1980s reached 13.5 million households.[127] Demographics chart is 2014; needs update.
 * WP:TRIVIA ???
 * Looked into the source, and it is the religion for the entire metropolitan area. Following the realization it is not even older data for the city proper, I scoured the web for a replacement data set to no avail. As a result, I have made the unfortunate decision to completely remove the box.
 * Sincerely, 7milestoHope (talk) 23:34, 14 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Mount Olivet claim is for 2012, and I can't find a more recent source. The last time I went through I used 2010 as a cut off but maybe this needs to go, too? -SusanLesch (talk) 23:32, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


 * What is the Mount Olivet claim? (I don't see it in this section). Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  10:20, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * This publication stopped counting at 2012. As of 2012, Mount Olivet Lutheran Church in southwest Minneapolis was the nation's second-largest Lutheran congregation, with about 6,000 attendees.
 * Ah, I see ... yes, sometimes a ten-year-old claim can be still valid. But with what's going on everywhere with church attendance, I don't think we should keep this very old claim in the article. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  16:00, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Economy
American companies with US offices in Minneapolis include Accenture, Bellisio Foods,[136] Canadian Pacific, In 2011, the area's $199.6 billion gross metropolitan product and its per capita personal income ranked 13th in the US.[142]
 * Is Canadian Pacific an American company?
 * Dated, why is it here still? Update or remove ?

This section is done but a question remains. I removed GDP per resident in 2015, and the ranking from 2011. I wrote to Wilder Research (who writes Minnesota Compass). They don't have GDP available for city of Minneapolis. We can use Hennepin County (almost $122 billion in 2020) or the metro area (about $296 billion in 2021). -SusanLesch (talk) 21:31, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


 * If there is no GDP no for Minneapolis, it should be left out-- using the County would not be appropriate. Perhaps a google search will turn up a number somewhere else. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  10:21, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Removed GDP. This is the second area in which the federal government suddenly in the 2010s decided it can't measure at the city level (the volunteer rate according to AmeriCorps was the other). -SusanLesch (talk) 16:31, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

I have added a citation for Canadian Pacific, which explains their U.S. Headquarters is in Minneapolis. But the sentence there is confusing: We now have: So we don't name four major companies, but we do name some other selection of companies with "offices in Minneapolis". Hundreds of companies have offices in Minneapolis; do we mean those with headquarters in Minneapolis? And it's odd not to name the four Fortune 500, while we do name these other companies. What is the selection criteria for this list ? Then we show a table of five Fortune 500 companies, while the text says four ? Sandy Georgia (Talk)  00:16, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * and in 2020, four Fortune 500 corporations were headquartered within the city limits of Minneapolis.[143] Companies with offices in Minneapolis include Accenture, Bellisio Foods,[144] Canadian Pacific,[145] Coloplast,[146] RBC[147] and Voya Financial.[148]
 * I updated the Fortune 500. There are five. I hesitate to name them because they're all listed nearby. We surely have room to name them if you want to. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:26, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Added. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:35, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I will write to Fortune today. They made a serious typo on Thrivent's revenue. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:30, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Music
Minnesota Orchestra plays classical and popular music at Orchestra Hall under Thomas Søndergård, the music director effective with the 2023–2024 season;[160] One One 2010 special performance under predecessor Osmo Vänskä at Carnegie Hall made The New Yorker critic Alex Ross write, "... the Minnesota Orchestra sounded, to my ears, like the greatest orchestra in the world".[161] Prince A lot of this section is dated WP:TRIVIA that might find a place at Music of Minnesota with a hatnote to here.
 * Grammar, punctuation.
 * Why are we still including what one critic said 13 years ago ? It as one performance, one critic, and is now dated. Irrelevant today, perhaps relevant at the Orchestra article.
 * He has his own article, reduce this to about half of what is there, and only that related to his being from Minneapolis.

Museums
These are history or some-such museums only (as art museums are listed above); rename? History and technology ?

Cuisine
Wirth Co-op opened in 2017 but closed within a year. Many Minneapolis-based individuals have won James Beard Foundation Awards;
 * WP:NOTNEWS; it closed, not relevant. Rewrite to be more general.
 * WP:OR ... does a citation specifically support many? Otherwise rewrite to "Individuals who have won include ... " or some such.

Libraries
Fifteen branches of the Hennepin County Library serve Minneapolis.[212] Ten special collections hold over 25,000 books and resources for researchers, including the Minneapolis Collection and the Minneapolis Photo Collection.[214]
 * Cited to 2007.
 * Cited to 2007.

Sports
Table: Minnesota Wild, an National Hockey League team, play at the Xcel Energy Center;[225] and the Major League Soccer soccer team Minnesota United FC play at Allianz Field, both of which are located in Saint Paul.
 * Capacity, Since, and Championships in table are uncited. Do we really need this? They have their own articles.
 * If they play in St. Paul, why are they listed here?
 * To stop visitors from adding them. This was probably the most frequent drive-by edit to this article. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:36, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Parks and recreation
The city's parks are governed and operated by the Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board, an independent park district with broader powers than any other parks agency in the US.[232] On a general note, this sections is in much better shape than anything that follows it.
 * Stated as a fact in Wikivoice; does this statement need in-text attribution? (According to so-and-so writing in x in year y )

Government
Presidential elections Minneapolis is currently a majority holding An awful lot of WP:RECENTISM there; can it be written more generally? The US Justice Department[271] and the Minnesota Department of Human Rights[272] have been investigating policing practices in Minneapolis.
 * See MOS:COLLAPSE
 * Why is this here ?
 * MOS:CURRENT (since when ... add dates for context or something)
 * For example, A 2021 ballot question to abolish the police department failed. It failed. WP:NOTNEWS.
 * For example, the entire paragraph beginning with "The city council unanimously approved Frey's budget of $1.66 billion for 2023 ... " WP:NOTNEWS, this is an encyclopedia.  Will anyone care about this para ten years from now?  Rewrite to be more general and encyclopedic.
 * No time context provided.

Primary and secondary education
Most are very old sources, and the first sentences are completely uncited.

Colleges and universities
Minneapolis's collegiate scene is dominated by the main campus of the University of Minnesota, where more than 50,000 undergraduate, graduate, and professional students attend 20 colleges, schools, and institutes.[278] The university offers free tuition to students from Minnesota families earning less than $50,000 per year.[279] The university has unusual constitutional autonomy that has existed in three US states since 1851, when the provision was included in Minnesota's constitution.[281] The large, principally online universities Capella University and Walden University are both headquartered in the city. The public four-year Metropolitan State University and the private four-year University of St. Thomas are among post-secondary institutions based elsewhere that have campuses in Minneapolis.[283]
 * Cited to Encyclopedia Britannica, 2007.
 * Excess detail, has its own article.
 * True, but does a casual reader know what this means? Rephrase.
 * 2005 source.
 * I ordered a book for this because the library only has circulating copies. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:17, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Is there a written rule that we cannot use search results as a source? I looked at WP:RS and didn't find it but think I have seen it somewhere. (The state of Minnesota has all these schools in a database but only retrieves them with search.) -SusanLesch (talk) 20:00, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Media
TMC Publications publishes The Monitor, ... What makes this a reliable source? her studio across Hennepin from the basilica. Movies filmed in Minneapolis include ...
 * acronym TMC stands for what? Is there a wikilink?
 * Ditto for MSP Communications
 * https://www.december.com/places/msp/broadcast.html
 * Nice, but what basilica? (Link)  And do we really need to know her location? She has her own article.
 * This is WP:TRIVIA that can be moved to the sub-article. Movies are filmed in every city.

Transportation
Among bus lines, local Minneapolis routes are numbered 1 to 49, and higher numbers are for limited-stop, commuter, express, and routes in directional parts of the city. Riders of Metro Transit system-wide are 44 percent persons of color.[310] Due to staffing shortages, BRT lines started just as ... Only one quarter of the US's structurally deficient bridges had been repaired ten years later The Minneapolis Skyway System, 9.5 miles (15.3 km) of enclosed pedestrian bridges called skyways, links 80 city blocks downtown with second-floor restaurants and retailers that are open on weekdays.[323]
 * Way too much detail; WP:NOT a guidebook.
 * This kind of data will always require updating and needs an as of date. I suggest rewriting it more generally to avoid the constant need for updating.
 * What year are we talking about here?
 * Interesting fact, irrelevant to Minneapolis as written. Sounds like trying to promote/hype Minnesota.
 * It's not only limited to restaurants and retailers. Should include mention of government, hospitality industry, offices, etc.

Health care
The Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota, is 87 miles (140 km) from Minneapolis.[327] Abbott Northwestern Hospital, University of Minnesota Medical Center, Hennepin Healthcare, Minneapolis VA Medical Center, Shriners Hospitals for Children, Children's Hospitals and Clinics, University of Minnesota Masonic Children's Hospital, and Phillips Eye Institute serve the city.[326] Cardiac surgery was developed at the university's Variety Club Hospital, where by 1957, more than 200 patients—many of whom were children—had survived open-heart operations. Working with surgeon C. Walton Lillehei, Medtronic began to build portable and implantable cardiac pacemakers about this time.[328] Level I trauma center The Mashkiki Waakaa'igan Pharmacy on Bloomington Avenue paragraph
 * Sourced to google maps, and has nothing to do with Minneapolis. Should be removed unless a source specifically giving its relevance to Minneapolis is provided.  (That is, this is original research as now included.)
 * An older-than 2007 source (with an incomplete citation): is this still accurate ?
 * Have there not been a number of mergers ?
 * Six pages is too broad of a range for verification. Attach individual page nos to the parts they verify. Why are some books listed in Works cited, using sfns for page nos, while others are not.
 * "Verified Trauma Centers". American College of Surgeons. July 3, 2012. Archived from the original on July 7, 2014. Retrieved March 30, 2007. How can you retrieve something in 2007 that was written in 2012 ?
 * How old is the source actually, and do we know this is still accurate? Updated source needed.
 * Has no as of date, and
 * Will become updated and need constant updating, and
 * Can be written without the numbers/excess detail that will require constant updating.

Utilities
"Ambassadors", who are identified by their blue-and-green-yellow fluorescent jackets, daily patrol a 120-block area of downtown to greet and assist visitors, remove trash, monitor property, and call police when they are needed. The ambassador program is a public-private partnership with a $6.6 million annual budget that is paid for by a special downtown tax district.[333] The city treats and distributes water, and charges a monthly fee for trash removal.[335]
 * It is not obvious to the casual reader why this is in Utilities.
 * If the article is to include a level of detail on annual budgets for each program, then those numbers will need to be constantly maintained and to include an "as of" date. This one is cited to 2020, so already needs checking/possible updating.
 * For accessibility and verification, please add archiveurls. For example, this source can be found at here (sample only, archivals should be added wherever else sources are not accessible or likely to go missing).
 * It seems like the Downtown Improvement District might be worthy of mention here.
 * This is a throw-away sentence that says nothing.

Citation consistency
There is citation overkill, citation inconsistency, and generally odd citation formatting, samples only:
 * Atwater, Isaac (1893). History of the city of Minneapolis, Minnesota. Vol. 1. pp. 282–299. This is too broad of a page range for verification of a simple fact, and this citation could be converted to an sfn like the others.  If books sources are listed in Works cited, they should all be listed in Works cited.
 * Use a consistent format for ISBNs in Works cited (re hyphenation).
 * I used this bizarre converter at the LOC. It turns 13 digits that begin with 978 into smaller hyphenated numbers that start with 0. But underneath this converter is a note to ONLY USE isbns that begin with 978 or 979. I give up. What is required? (For an example, J. K. Rowlings has some books beginning with 978 and some starting with 0.) This is an easy task once I understand what is needed. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:13, 2 March 2023 (UTC)


 * WP:CITATIONOVERKILL, eg in History.
 * What an odd citation for a simple fact: "A History of Minneapolis: Mdewakanton Band of the Dakota Nation, Parts I and II". Hennepin County Library. 2001. Archived from the original on April 9, 2012. and "The US-Dakota War of 1862". Minnesota Historical Society. and "A History of Minneapolis: Minneapolis Becomes Part of the United States". Archived from the original on April 21, 2012., and "A History of Minneapolis: Governance and Infrastructure". Archived from the original on April 21, 2012. and "A History of Minneapolis: Railways". Archived from the original on April 21, 2012. Retrieved January 1, 2020 – via Internet Archive.
 * Same for the citation just above it. Pick one strong source and use it only. These are samples only.
 * Danbom, David B. (2003). "Flour power: the significance of flour milling at the falls" (PDF). Minnesota History. 58 (5–6): 270–285. JSTOR 20188363. This PDF has 15 pages and is cited five times. A 15-page range is larger than helpful for verification, and sfns would allow for better page citation (sample only).
 * Odd citation formatting. What date Star Tribune? What article title?  A period before an and which continues with a separate citation? About 10,000 such covenants remained as of 2017, in: Furst, Randy (August 26, 2017). "Massive project works to uncover racist restrictions in Minneapolis housing deeds". Star Tribune. and Delegard, Kirsten; Ehrman-Solberg, Kevin (2017). "'Playground of the People'? Mapping Racial Covenants in Twentieth-century Minneapolis". Open Rivers: Rethinking the Mississippi. 6. doi:10.24926/2471190X.2820.


 * Should quotes inside references be inside straight quotes? I think our citation templates automatically add them to the quote parameter, and I think our sfn template does not add them to loc. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:39, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * See footnote 96 in J. K. Rowling; yes, I believe you are correct that we have to manually add them with loc on sfns, but not with the quote parameter on citation templates. Is there something specific I should look at in this article? Sandy Georgia (Talk)  13:01, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Sandy. Nothing for you yet. I'll go through and add them to loc. Afraid my skills could be outdated so was just checking. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:33, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Would you please give me an example article or a reference that uses archive urls in advance of dead links? Help:Archiving a source didn't quite correspond to my experience. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:47, 5 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm not certain what your question is ? At J. K. Rowling we used archive-urls on almost all the news sources, as so many of them go missing, and some of the paywalled news sources are actually available in archive.org.  But I don't think that's what you're asking ... ??? Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  03:42, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
 * That answered it. Rowling is a perfect model, thank you. Nice benefit for paywalls. So the dead links remaining can stay? Most have been replaced with newer sources and most of those that went extinct were reliable sources related to history. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:28, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's ok to leave the dead (original) link. I think there is some parameter in the citation template which flags dead vs. live, but I've never bothered with that, and there is probably some bot that goes through and deals with that technicality. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  15:41, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
 * PS, maybe move this thread to the next one (citation consistency) as it is more general than the Utilities section it is in now? Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:42, 5 February 2023 (UTC) Done, Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  16:15, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Ready for you when you have a moment. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:14, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * A couple questions and comments are marked above.
 * See what you think of Demographics.
 * I've removed most of the imponderable combined refs. Two remain for lack of sources: Under Sports, hosting of major sporting events, and under Music, list of opera companies.
 * Your comment about a period preceding "and" in a citation seems to be unfixable with citation templates.
 * I know this one! Trailing ". and"s replaced with commas (", and") using  in the relevant cite templates. —&#8288;Collint c 19:55, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Impressive, Collin! Thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:34, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * as in, ready for a full new look ? At this level, my preference is to archive away all the done stuff, and give a completely fresh review.  If that's where we are, I'd rather tackle it after Easter ... let me know. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  20:40, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * After Easter sounds perfect, thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:34, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Great; in the meantime, I'll start a new thread at the bottom inquiring whether anyone objects to archiving (almost) everything here, so we can start afresh. At least, that's the way I would review this as to readiness for FAR. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:23, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Lead
The lead says: but the body of the article says:
 * Minneapolis has its origins in timber and is the flour milling capital of the world.
 * Minneapolis was the nation's leading flour producer for nearly 50 years, and got the nickname "Mill City."

Please check throughout for similar; that is, the lead should summarize the body, and everything in the lead should be in the body. (It is usually more expedient to leave this sort of thing 'til last, when the body is settled, but I happened to notice it now, so am adding it to the list.) Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  23:50, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Somebody has edited that lead sentence beyond meaning. Actually, Minneapolis was first the center of the world's timber production, followed by flour. I'll have to build another sentence in the history section. Thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:58, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

History of immigration
Does anybody have a good source for 19th century immigration? We lost the source from City Pages which for some reason the Internet Archive didn't capture. The Minnesota Historical Society is useless since it switched over to MNopedia, because their sources are only given in a group bibliography (no citations). Next week I can check the book They Chose Minnesota but I'm afraid that they'll deal with the whole state instead of this city. I looked through Google Scholar and the Wikipedia Library but might have missed something. I can find a half dozen good sources but all written from one perspective or another (the Irish in Minneapolis, the Swedes in Minneapolis, etc.). It would be possible to cobble these together but we really need an overview. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:37, 20 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Did you look at the archives for the Minnesota article? I have a vague memory of us finding something there when we were working on the Minnesota FAR (but it could have the same problem of being more Minnesota than Minneapolis) ?? Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  13:04, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I looked and that sent me to the library. Found one or two. They should arrive next week. This one has a seventy page chapter. Also, the Internet Archive did capture that City Pages article by former editor G. R. Anderson. That's twelve pages. So we'll be all right. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:48, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Has this item been addressed (vis-a-vis archving this talk page)? Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:31, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, sources found, and this is done. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:06, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Streets.mn
An archive for the record. Streets.mn is used to define a term in the Neighborhoods section. The outcome at WP:RSN was mixed due to its editorial policies but despite some shortcomings, the site has been okayed for limited use here. A caution for the future, the site is not okayed for contentious claims. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:39, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Page range for Albert (1981)
Hi all, does anyone have this source on hand (or have easy library access to it)? It could use the page range if possible. Thanks! —&#8288;Collint c 16:56, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * "The Japanese" is chapter 30, pp. 558–571. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:59, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Added to the reference, thank you ! —&#8288;Collint c 20:10, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * This is how WikiProject Minnesota used to work, many moons ago. 😃 -SusanLesch (talk) 14:25, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Your changes
Hi 24.152.189.46, just to let you know that your edits were great but they eliminated the river and the sailboat from the images (the river is essential and the sailboat looks like the city logo), and they introduced too many regions into the first paragraph. The Upper Midwest and the Northern Great Plains aren't the subject of this article but there they were to stumble over. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:44, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Over citation
✅ Why does the city's founding have 5 citations? They are unnecessary per WP:OVERCITE. Sandy mentioned this above in Citation consistency. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:36, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Bde Maka Ska
I made this edit to try to give some context for the uninformed reader, who may not know what Bde Maka Ska is, thereby forced to click out of the article to find out if it is a river, a stream, a pond, a lake or what, since the name is non-English. There may be a more elegant way to do this, but we can't just say Lake Bde Maka Ska, as that would be the equivalent of saying Lake Lake White Earth, which doesn't work, and yet we need to give the reader some clue as to what they're looking at that doesn't force them to click out of this article. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:29, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Hey, I've tried reworking the caption a bit to provide a little more context while also making the link that Bde Maka Ska is a lake a little smoother. Let me know if you think it works! —&#8288;Collint c 15:57, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Excellent solution, thx! Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:58, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Is in the U.S. state clumsy or redundant?
The lead starts with   which expands to. Is there a better way to wrap it? Cheers! 01:03, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, User:WikiWikiWayne. The lead has been micro-edited by a sockpuppet more times than I can count. Go ahead and adjust if you can. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:08, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * P.S. Why did you change everything to U.S. from US per MOS:US which says either way is fine? I believe I began with US. That said, thank you very much for the archive URLs. Perhaps you had some automation? -SusanLesch (talk) 14:52, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Although my son is visiting for a week, because Mackensen has asked that Susan/Magnolia not interact here, I'll keep an eye on any questions that arise. Susan is correct that it was not necessary to change US to U.S. per MOS. I personally prefer the earlier US, but now that it's changed, probably not worth worrying about. More elegant solutions for the US state link can also be addressed when the article is at FAR, as more knowledgeable editors will then offer ideas; for now, it's not troubling enough to divert attention from other content improvements needed. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  16:15, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, . Thanks for asking about US. I did it for continuity per MOS:US, not as any kind of choice error. As you say, either way, is okay as long as there is continuity. I was in a section that had US or had it both ways, and I recalled seeing U.S. elsewhere in the prose. So, I went up to the infobox, and it was U.S. – and I therefore changed the prose one from US to U.S. – then later found more US cases during my gnome edits and I just stuck with U.S. (sorry).
 * I have no preference or bias. It was just a minor rabbit hole. Sorry. If you do have a style preference, I can easily switch all U.S. in the article over to US. Sorry. Also, if any of my gnome edits are wrong or grating, please jump in and fix them, and school me too, as you did with year/date.
 * The date/year parameter changes were made by an automated bot script that is enabled in my Wikipedia skin preferences via its built-in gadget choices. The script creator needs to update the rules to favor date over year as the parameter to keep.
 * The archiving is semi-automated, done via a request to the IABot (Internet Archive Bot). My Wikipedia skin has a button "Fix Dead Links" which pulls up the Management Interface for IABot run requests. It takes 4 or 5 clicks to fire it up. Then there is a wait for a few minutes while it chugs away and then it issues a results summary after it does its thing. If you want to try IABot:
 * open the article page in "Desktop" view, click on the drop-down menu called "Page", click on "Tools", click on "Fix dead links", tick to box to add archives, click on "Analyze", wait, and wait.
 * If you don't have the drop-down for Page/Tools, you may have to tick the box to enable the Tools in your Preferences on its Gadgets tab. I don't recall. Please ask more questions. We all learn from each other. Courtesy ping to: . Thanks. Cheers!  20:45, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the gnoming, WWW; most appreciated. When working at FAR or pre-FAR, I usually leave that sort of thing 'til last so we can keep focused on content, as a final MOS-y pass is usually needed anyway, plenty of FAR regulars are willing to do it, but most happy to have some of it done now. (It's rare to come across someone who does the NBSPs I usually do :) I don't care about US vs. U.S.; just making sure we're all on the same page, and that consistency is what matters. I probably prefer US only because it's two less strokes to type! Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  21:12, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

I made a stab at massaging the lead lightly. Let me know how it resonates with y'all's. Cheers! 00:33, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Vegan butcher store
The article contains the following:
 * The United States' first vegan butcher shop, The Herbivorous Butcher, opened in 2016.

This statement "vegan butcher shop" may be confusing to readers, since "Butcher" only discusses meat products. Meat alternative store would be more accurate. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:16, 9 February 2023 (UTC) Magnolia677 (talk) 10:16, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * You could take the name up with the business owner. This article doesn't link to the word butcher. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:03, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Featured articles require high quality sources, and the one there now is not; there are many other better sources which can be used. I was browsing last night and found a BBC report that it was the first, which would be better used for this case. There is also a report in The Guardian, and The New York Times; switching to higher quality sources would be better. Multiple high quality sources highlight the "butcher" aspect of their marketing.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  16:30, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * PS, I can try to relocate those sources after the kids leave ... I was browsing from the car when I found them, and did not save them. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  16:56, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I didn't find "first" in the BBC. But I did find FoodBev Media, which is a reliable trade publication, that says they stopped Nestlé from trademarking "vegan butcher". -SusanLesch (talk) 18:34, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I decidedly saw a "first" at BBC ... will dig back in and see if I can reproduce those I found last night but did not save. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  19:59, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Sources: That's a good sampling (there are many more); any of these are preferable to local or specialty magazines, which could raise the question of why include this particular niche item, when scores of restaurants get regional coverage. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  20:12, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * BBC News calls it a first
 * The Guardian (showing coverage beyond regional and beyond veganism)
 * Newsweek calls it a first, but Newsweek of late is not what I would call a high-quality source
 * AFP via Yahoo calls it a first
 * Time references the oxymoronic name
 * CBS News on butcher
 * New York Times, not much usable, but at least establishes how notable they are
 * Thank you! CBS covered everything from first to butcher—and the name of the business. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:02, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe we can add something to make it more sensical to the average reader (that is, don't require them to click out to the source to understand what a vegan butcher is. We have now:
 * The United States' first vegan butcher shop, The Herbivorous Butcher, opened in 2016.
 * The same CBS source would give us:
 * The United States' first vegan butcher shop, The Herbivorous Butcher, opened in 2016; it offers natural alternatives to meat, described by CBS News as "meat-free meat".
 * or some such. The other alternative is to write the article for the shop, but that would still require the reader to click out to understand what a vegan butcher shop is (I note there are now others around the world using that lingo). Also, could the last sentence of that paragraph be moved to the previous paragraph, to combine the mentions of Kaysen in the same paragraph? Sandy Georgia (Talk)  23:39, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not a butcher, it's a store that sells meat alternative products, so calling it a "butcher" would be both incorrect and unencyclopedic. Open any newspaper and you will will see a plethora of feel-good stories like this that defy the English language, and most are WP:VNOT. The text will just require some changes, for example, "The Herbivorous Butcher, opened in 2016, was the first meat alternative store in the United States." Magnolia677 (talk) 23:52, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * You might have trouble sourcing "first meat alternative store in the United States". The shop uses the phrase "meat-free meat" so I added it. The proprietors use the word butcher and defended it in court, so it can stay here. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:23, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * How about resolving this by working with exactly what the source gives us:
 * The Herbivorous Butcher opened in 2016; the shop offers natural alternatives to meat and was described by CBS News as "meat-free meat" and the "first vegan 'butcher' shop in the United States". Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  00:31, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 00:40, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I think it looks good now; if it is questioned down the line, we have the list here on this page of numerous other high-quality sources, and of interest is that the trend of "vegan butchers" has caught on (evidence the Nestle lawsuit and I found other sources when searching last night), so we've established why it is worthy of inclusion. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  00:55, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * A tad wordy but overall great job! In St. Paul last year I had a BLT made with HB bacon. Excellent sandwich and worth the fuss. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:49, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Just to be sure you saw that I left some new comments up above under Economy. I think (lost track while my son was visiting) that the main area still needing work is Education.  Once you get through everything already listed, I will take a fresh look and give you all some advice about when/how to approach and handle WP:FAR. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  15:02, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Al's Breakfast
You added Al's Breakfast today saying it won a James Beard award. True, however that happened in 2004. As discussed above in the Religion section, this article uses 2010 as a hard cut off for most claims. For example, this morning I removed a solid claim from 2012 that came close to that dateline. Al's doesn't belong here and I removed it. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:56, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Where is there a consensus that "this article uses 2010 as a hard cut off for most claims"? The history section goes back hundreds of years. Magnolia677 (talk) 18:34, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * A 2004 award is WP:UNDUE. You gave 16 words to an undated old award while skipping over chefs at a half dozen Minneapolis restaurants that won James Beard awards during the past decade. I removed Andrew Zimmern for his "aging awards" from 2010 and 2012. I removed Sue Zelickson because she won in 2005. Also, please remove the image of the 5-8 club because consensus is not in your favor. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:32, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Where is there a consensus that "this article uses 2010 as a hard cut off for most claims"? Magnolia677 (talk) 21:18, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Nobody edits here anymore, Magnolia. There is no "we" with whom to draw consensus. You can ask for it as many times as you like but nobody is home. Back to the matter at hand, 2004 doesn't make it in 2023 if you omit everything in between. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:46, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Obviously (and as I said above), different types of content require different treatment vis-a-vis datedness. What applies to history does not necessarily apply to current events.  While we wouldn't use a 12-yo source to talk about today's church attendance, we would accept, for example, a 20-yo source (if still high quality) to talk about history.  There is not a 10-year cutoff, but neither is the analogy between current events and history a good one.  One sentence rolling in all the James Beardsy restaurants, regardless of date, seems appropriate. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  21:47, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * There should be less emphasis on individuals who won the award, and more on bricks and mortar restaurants that are genuinely part of fabric. I doubt many readers care much about people who weren't even born in Minneapolis (Sean Sherman is from South Dakota; Andrew Zimmern is from New York; Dara Moskowitz Grumdahl is from New York; Gavin Kaysen is from California)...but one of Minnesota's smallest restaurants, which also received an "America’s Classics" award from James Beard (and isn't gimmicky)...gets deleted for some made-up reason. SusanLesch, please revert your edit. Thanks. Magnolia677 (talk) 23:19, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * No. You do your part from WP:DRN and WP:NPOVN. You wrote: "Regarding Mr. Hoffman, if "the whole paragraph has to go", it would improve the article by removing the many non-notable names of award winners. I will look through Hoffman's article--and others--for some encyclopedic content to add to this section of the article. Thank you again. Magnolia677 (talk) 16:10, 16 September 2022 (UTC)" I did my part in good faith. Now you do your fair share. Remove the 5-8 Club photo, and add some content about food. To refresh your memory: The James Beard 2019 M.F.K. Fisher Distinguished Writing Award went to Steve Hoffman for “What Is Northern Food?” in Artful Living. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:34, 10 February 2023 (UTC)


 * SusanLesch, you uploaded this interesting photo of Al's Breakfast. Why don't we use it instead? It's an excellent illustrative aid, per MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE, as the restaurant is noted for its narrow dimensions (and for winning a national award). Magnolia677 (talk) 11:42, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
 * No. You meet your outstanding obligations as a Wikipedian. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:30, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I removed the previous image from the cuisine section. Could you please discuss your specific objection to adding the photo of Al's Breakfast, a photo which you uploaded.  Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:12, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

SusanLesch and Magnolia677, I think it would be best if you two stopped interacting for a while. You're not communicating and the article is suffering for it. Mackensen (talk) 21:24, 10 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Except ... Susan is the one diligently, persistently, and with multiple socks and great disruption, trudging forward nonetheless on the gynormous lists I leave. The article suffers without her, as no one else will clean it up.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  21:31, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I didn't say stop working on the article. I'm just saying that the dialogue between the two has become completely toxic. I don't have a stake in this, aside from having had an enjoyable meal at Al's once. Mackensen (talk) 21:34, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, it just got more toxic; Magnolia677 is now stalking my image edits as well. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  21:39, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
 * User:Mackensen you putting a gag on me was unwise. Glad you enjoyed your meal at Al's Breakfast—another red herring. I was trying to hold an editor to account. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:05, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I brought up Al's, along with another restaurant, a month ago, as an example of other restaurants in the Minneapolis area that might be suitable subjects. How or why that's a red herring I don't begin to understand, and no one "gagged" you, or anyone else. I made a suggestion, based on my reading of the situation. You're free to keep arguing with anyone you like if you think it will help the article. Mackensen (talk) 14:10, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Perhaps a read af WP:FOC will be helpful here. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  16:17, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

About five months ago you said you would write something about food for this article based on Hoffman's article and others. Hoffman is inspiring and I hope you will keep your word. The M.F.K. Fisher award is national and prestigious. He clearly loves Minneapolis chefs. If you do not plan to follow through, now would be an opportunity to say so. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:42, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

IP edit to lead on metro area population
I suppose it doesn't hurt to have this info in the article, but a) does it need to be in the lead; b) if it's in the lead, it has to be in the body; and c) of course it needs citation. For comparison, some other city FAs are Ann Arbor, Michigan, Cleveland, and Washington, D.C.. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  15:01, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Of those three examples, only DC mentions an "area" population outside the lead. Exception can be made as a "basic fact" per MOS:LEAD. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:45, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Lumber
Source is here in JSTOR. Blegen defines "board feet" on page 4. On page 8, "By 1890 Minneapolis, cutting close to a half billion feet, was the premier lumber market not only of Minnesota but of the world." He uses the term "feet" 16 times without the word "board." -SusanLesch (talk) 20:47, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, . Here is a paper mentioning board feet a lot. Cheers!  22:34, 23 February 2023 (UTC)


 * So what is your point? You asked "please confirm lumber footage" which is done. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:34, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

What is your point please? Several reliable sources used feet and several used board feet. MN DNR (feet), historical society (board-feet), Minneapolis Journal (feet), The White Pine Industry in Minnesota: A History (feet and board feet). -SusanLesch (talk) 15:31, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
 * In 1859, an order for lumber sent to Franklin Steele began with 23 to 40 m. feet clear inch Bds. (and every item in the order says m.). What are you trying to say please? -SusanLesch (talk) 16:34, 24 February 2023 (UTC)


 * . Lumber quantity is typically meant by volume. Board-foot is a volumetric measure. But, maybe they shorthand it to "feet" in speech when they are really meaning board foot/feet. Loggers and lumberyards only care about the volume measure of the timber or lumber they are getting or selling. A linear measurement would not help much. I provided that other source for two reasons. First it mentions board foot/feet and second I wondered if the quantities meshed with Blegen. I had a hard time viewing the Blegen book as I let my JSTOR access go. The newspaper also quantified on a daily harvesting basis. At the lumber yard they do shorthand things. They will say, "clear heart pine 4x4s are $5000 per thousand today", with "thousand" referring to 1000 board feet (the volume of the lumber). The Minneapolis article was using linear rather than volumetric conversion units, and I changed it to volume (board foot). Wanting to confirm that the quantity being converted is still correct. I don't recall but wood buyers/sells may refer to 1000BF as 1m; "m" being an archaic shorthand for thousand, based on Roman numeral M. Cheers!  23:09, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for your answer. Cogent and demystifying! I underestimated the importance of the lumber industry to Minneapolis and will try hard to rectify the oversight. Again my thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:07, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

✅ I rented one book and re-read the lumber section of one we've used for many years. The facts were plain: one sentence was insufficient to describe the role lumber milling played in the city's history. Now expanded to a paragraph and a half. We are laboring under a "more than 10 paragraphs" constraint described in WP:USCITIES for the History section. I think a paragraph break should precede the collapse of the Eastman tunnel but that one keystroke would be risking a rebuke from User:Magnolia677. I don't have time for that. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:35, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
 * SusanLesch, I haven't said a word in this discussion; what is your obsession with me? I'm just pleased that very competent editors like WikiWikiWayne have joined the effort to improve this article, and provide oversight lest editors try to return it to a tourist brochure. Magnolia677 (talk) 18:10, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Please forgive me, the last I heard from you was 1.5 hours after I returned online, with food poisoning from jury duty. That said, para has been made. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:51, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Infobox photos
I recommend that photos at the top of the infobox be thinned down. Maybe remove 2 of the smaller photos to remove 1 row. Maybe remove "First Avenue" and "Lake Nokomis"? • Sbmeirow  •  Talk  • 04:37, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Chiming in to say that I'm agnostic on the question of whether to trim two photos or not, but if consensus develops around doing so, the City Hall one might be a good pick to remove as City Hall already appears in a dedicated photo in the Government section below in the article. —&#8288;Collint c 16:29, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I strongly prefer to keep a photo of a sailboat. A sailboat is the city logo. Otherwise I agree with Collin. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:02, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I feel that the First Avenue is a keeper. Anything connected to Prince is important to Mpls history.  Sectionworker (talk) 22:14, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd be thrilled if four two were cut; I hate how the infobox extends well beyond the first section of the article. But I will not engage in another lengthy photo discussion; that's my opinion, and I'm stating it once only. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  20:06, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Collin fiddled with an hlist that helped with my complaint about the infobox length, so now removing two of them would suffice for me. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  20:38, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree cuts would help. Maybe think about them for a minute here. A First Avenue photo frees up the Music section where we need fewer pics. The Mill City Museum could go in the History section. (I'd have to see if that works.) We have lots of room under Visual Arts for the Minneapolis Institute of Arts. We aren't desperate for Grain Belt. Unless somebody explains why not, we need a sailboat. My two cents. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:17, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

If the goal is trimming photos, I would suggest (again) removing one of the two nearly-identical photos of the waterfall. Magnolia677 (talk) 23:06, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No. Minneapolis has received national acclaim for their park system.  The NYT had this to say
 * f you live in Minneapolis, there’s a 95 percent chance you live within a 10-minute walk to a park. That bragging right, plus a few others, make Minneapolis’s parks system the best of the 100 biggest cities in the country, beating out its next-door neighbor, St. Paul, for the top spot.   Sectionworker (talk) 02:01, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I would vote to remove Mill City Museum and second either the arts building or Grain Belt sign. Sectionworker (talk) 02:27, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree with Sectionworker. Let's remove the Grain Belt sign and Mill City Museum. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:37, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Changed my mind. I vote to remove the Grain Belt sign and the Minneapolis Institute of Arts (which should be moved to the Arts section which has no images). The grain silos in the museum pic are emblematic as the Midwest's Doric columns.
 * Magnolia677, I support moving the park service photo of the falls up to the infobox—their pic is nigh impossible to beat for a still frame. Then the movie by Mattwj2002 can go in the park section. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:17, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. I hope anybody with better ideas will step up. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:57, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Sentence in the lead regarding George Floyd/Derek Chauvin, the protests
In May 2020, Derek Chauvin, a White officer of the Minneapolis Police Department, murdered George Floyd, a Black man, with the resulting global protests putting Minneapolis and racism at the center of national and international attention.

Mentions of George Floyd, Derek Chauvin, the protests, etc. are fine in the body of the article (there's already a paragraph about that under Minneapolis), but IMO the sentence above is WP:UNDUE for the lead and fails the WP:10YEARTEST. This is an article about the city of Minneapolis; the George Floyd situation is only tangential to the city itself. I propose that we remove the sentence above from the lead, or at least re-write that whole last paragraph to include more about the city's History (Social tensions) and Government (or even race relations, if it's DUE) so that the George Floyd content can be better integrated into the lead if it were to be included. Some1 (talk) 03:12, 7 March 2023 (UTC) Pinging since they reverted my edit removing that sentence. Some1 (talk) 03:12, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello, Some1. The lead, with images, is the last thing we will consider when we get to FAR. Social tensions are in my sandbox for reworking, and I am offline until at least Thursday. You are wrong to drive by here and proclaim WP:10YEARTEST. Google has 20 million hits for George Floyd, more than for Babe Ruth, Lyndon B. Johnson, and Muammar Gaddafi combined. And you were wrong to remove the paragraph when it was clearly marked "do not remove". The paragraph is stare decisis and it was labeled as such. Please let the bee out of your bonnet. If implemented, your suggestion will be contentious. I for one will take it into consideration when the time comes to finalize the lead. Thank you for raising your point on the talk page. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:23, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The disputed text--and an editors note saying "Please do not remove the following paragraph which is here by consensus of the editing community. Address your concerns to the talk page."--were added August 12, 2021 by User:Rjensen. An editor removed the text from the lead, and User:SusanLesch restored it on August 17, 2021, saying "Undid deletion of George Floyd in lead, maybe we'll have to have an RfC as there is disagreement among visitors".  Perhaps I missed it, but I was not able to locate an RFC about this, and the only discussion of Derek Chauvin being in the lead began here in March 2022. Magnolia677 (talk) 14:38, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for those links, . I've removed the hidden note per MOS:COMMENT, which states that hidden comments should not be used to instruct other editors not to perform certain edits, although where existing local consensus is against making such an edit, they may usefully draw the editor's attention to that. I don't see any existing local consensus discussions regarding the disputed sentence after looking through the talk page archives. If there are discussions that's not in the talk page archives, please link them, because the hidden note isn't drawing attention to them. Some1 (talk) 23:30, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I would also support removing that sentence about Chauvin and Floyd from the lead, the reason being that is not what makes Minneapolis notable, and is not a characteristic of Minneapolis. WikiProject Cities/US Guideline lists the criteria for the lead section of a city article, and the emphasis is on the characteristics of the city, such as demographics, industries, founding, and unique features. Al Capone isn't mentioned in the lead of the Chicago article, probably for the same reason. Magnolia677 (talk) 00:11, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The fact that Derek Chauvin is name-dropped and linked in the lead, . Anyway, I've re-written the lead paragraph. I'm not sure if the protests sentence belongs in the lead, but at least with this version, the George Floyd content seems less wp:undue in the lead than the previous version. Feel free to revise it. Some1 (talk) 01:11, 8 March 2023 (UTC) Struck parts of comment as the mayor is mentioned in the lead; but still, the mayor and Derek Chauvin both mentioned in the same lead paragraph? Some1 (talk) 02:05, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * , this addition contains content not in the body and not cited in the body. That doesn't work for any article, but really should not be done on a Featured article, as it takes the article out of compliance with WP:WIAFA.  If you're going to copy content in to the lead, could you please make sure to accordingly adjust the body, and copy over the citations supporting the content ??? Thx, Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  01:13, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yep, I'll do that right now. Some1 (talk) 01:16, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thx! Sandy Georgia (Talk)  01:17, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, and thanks also for respecting WP:CWW, since fixing those after the fact is a bear :) Sandy Georgia (Talk)  01:18, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * , per your comments, I added Minneapolis to the article's History section so that it can support the two new sentences in the lead. Let me know if you think that's sufficient or if there's something else you'd like done with the section/article, etc. Some1 (talk) 02:11, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * , it seems headed in the right direction, but I am doubtful that https://www.bostonreview.net/about/ meets the requirement for high-quality sourcing in a Featured article, and additionally, we shouldn't base that statement on one opinion piece. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  02:16, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The bit you deleted is probably defensible; it just needs better sourcing. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  02:26, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Two quick questions: Do you think the current version of the article is an improvement over the previous version of the article ? (visual comparison: ; text comparison: ) And in your opinion, do you think the sentence about George Floyd is wp:due for the lead? I'm asking because if the new version is not an improvement over the old version, feel free to revert it back. In either versions, I still think the George Floyd sentence is undue for the lead and should be removed; but if George Floyd needs a mention in the lead of this article, then I would prefer the new version since it gives the Floyd sentence some context. Some1 (talk) 03:11, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't like to weigh in on leads too early in the process. I understand your concern that Floyd might not belong in the lead, but for now just don't want us to get the body and lead out of sync.  And I'm too tired from real life stuff this week to think any further than that :) :)  We should just keep discussing and see where consensus takes us ... but I hope to keep focus on cleanup of the body of the article so we can start on the next phase (fine-tuning prose, sources, MOS) before approaching FAR. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  03:17, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * PS, not sure if you are aware that there has been a persistent sock impeding progress here. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  03:18, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That makes sense; I had assumed the FA star on the article meant that it was already at its very final stage (I'm not familiar with the FA process). The George Floyd sentence stuck out like a sore thumb when I first read the lead of this article, but at least it'll stick out less now while the article is still progressing towards the final phase. Some1 (talk) 04:07, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Just to fill you in on how the process works. WP:URFA/2020 started looking at all very old and old FAs two years ago (see The Forgotten Featured).  This FA is from 2007 and badly needed an update.  That work has been going on for several years, but content updates have been impeded by a persistent sock along with several image disagreements.  The article is no longer at a state that it would be an embarrassment at TFA, so a FAR is not urgent, although still in the cards. The list of content and other items on this talk page needs to be completed, and then another pass to review prose, sourcing, MOS, comprehensiveness, and then a trip to FAR which will bring a fresh set of eyes and hopefully a stamp of approval. But I'm guessing everyone at this point is as exhausted as I am :) It would be great to get the basics done so we can move in to fine tuning. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  10:44, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Greetings, Some1. Clearly I owe you an apology for the "bee in your bonnet" remark. I am sorry for that, plus I didn't know about the MOS:COMMENT guideline. I think you could have approached this article and the Floyd paragraph better, and there is plenty of room on this talk page for you to acknowledge that. As it turns out, that was a stable paragraph here for an entire year and it was marked. All that said, I agree with you, there was no reason to mention Derek Chauvin in the lead. Thank you for removing him. Have you read Tom Weber's book? How about Elizabeth Hinton? Still offline today. Best wishes, -SusanLesch (talk) 20:36, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Racial disparities
Hello. I don't understand our new section "Racial disparities." I can't get a copy of Tom Weber's book for love or money until Monday night (I have two copies at home). User:Some1 copied a paragraph from History of Minneapolis entirely cited to Weber. Unless Some1 has read that book and can verify the citation I don't accept the addition. The previous section under "Social tensions", describes in at least six sentences the cause of racial disparities, and then in about three and a half sentences describes Hubert Humphrey's attempt (that failed) to restore equality, and then years of racial turmoil. Our new section describes the death of George Floyd, but not Jamar Clark, Philando Castile, Amir Locke, or anybody else. Can anybody else make sense of this new section?
 * Incidentally, I just found out that Mr. Weber became the state's Second Gentleman after his 2019 marriage to Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:26, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I've reverted all of the changes I've made to this article, minus the edit removing the inappropriate hidden comment. Some1 (talk) 18:38, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * OK but why did you add Derek Chauvin back in? This RfC seems premature until that has been resolved. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:04, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That's the status quo version of the lead. Even if Derek Chauvin is removed from the lead, the RfC is primarily about whether George Floyd himself should be mentioned in the lead. Some1 (talk) 19:12, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You had my agreement that the lead had been improved by Chauvin's omission. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:14, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think mentioning George Floyd in the lead is UNDUE in general, even with the Chauvin omission, hence the RfC. If the RfC finds consensus to include or mention George Floyd in the lead, the sentence can be reworked. Some1 (talk) 19:27, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think sweeping Chauvin under the rug is a poor way to start an RfC. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:38, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * And how do you think the RfC should be worded? Some1 (talk) 19:50, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * How about, "Should George Floyd be mentioned in the lead of the Minneapolis article?"? -SusanLesch (talk) 19:52, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * So basically removing the The lead of Minneapolis currently says: In May 2020, Derek Chauvin, a White officer of the Minneapolis Police Department, murdered George Floyd, a Black man, with the resulting global protests putting Minneapolis and racism at the center of national and international attention. part from the RfC. Okay, I'll make the change. Some1 (talk) 19:55, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

IN USE
Does ANYONE see the inuse template? I am trying to clean up citation errors as others are changing the text; the point of INUSE is to avoid edit conflicts. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  23:21, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Sandy I did not see it until a minute ago. I'll be back tomorrow. Sorry if I messed you up. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:29, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Not sure who messed up, but I spent a lot of time trying to figure out if I had caused this; still not sure where it came from, so I started over. There are some books used with ref tags, while most are listed in sources and used with an sfn, so it's hard to determine what the citation style wants to be here.  Some editors use sfns for only books used more than once, while leaving the others in ref tags ... not sure if that is the intent here, but whatever it is, it should be consistent. Sorry for being short; with my iPad editing issues from my back, edit conflicts are no fun. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  23:37, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I was going through the end of the refs to move books into works cited. First time ever using sfnm. Work was in progress. I did not expect you here until after Easter and have no idea what Magnolia is doing. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:02, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry :( You are correct I said after Easter, but I found myself with a few spare moments today. If you're doing major work like that, inuse helps.  Agree that books should be moved to sources and used with sfns for consistency. That's all for me for now; carry on, and my apologies. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  00:04, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * PS, I reinstated Magnolia's edit (which I agree with). Sandy Georgia (Talk)  00:05, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Apology accepted. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:14, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Proposal to archive talk
I propose we archive everything on this page to Talk:Minneapolis/Archive 10, which would result in almost all of the runup to a potential WP:FAR being easily found in one archive. (I've requested closure on the open RFC.) The bulk of the FAR concerns were entered in my long post at, and there has been enough progress that (at least for my style of FA reviewing), the next step is a final pass in the form of a fresh top-to-bottom review on a clean page to facilitate closer scrutiny of anything left. If there are any sections above that anyone feels have not yet addressed and should stay on the page, please flag them, else, can we archive after the RFC closes ? Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:35, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree we should. Also some sections below are done (marked out gray).-SusanLesch (talk) 23:53, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

RFC on cuisine image
See Neutral point of view/Noticeboard. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  21:33, 10 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Closed, here. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  18:39, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

RfC: George Floyd in the lead of Minneapolis
Should George Floyd be mentioned in the lead of the Minneapolis article? 19:56, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The specific mention seems like an exercise in WP:RECENTISM to me. BD2412  T 15:02, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes. There is a lot of copyediting to do, but Floyd belongs here just as Medgar Evers belongs in the lead of Mississippi. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:33, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No. This isn't just a question of how notable Floyd is, it's also a matter of to what extent Floyd is linked to Minneapolis, and will still be linked in 10-years time. I can't see any evidence that it is so linked or will be linked 10-years from now. Pincrete (talk) 15:48, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No, seems like WP:Recentism. The current lead reads like a classic case of a recent news event tacked onto the end of an otherwise reasonable lead. The Mississippi article, mentioned above, is different – it briefly mentions Medgar Evers as part of a broader paragraph outlining the racial history of Mississippi, not in a single sentence disconnected from the rest of the lead. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 16:29, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * We were sort of in the middle of that kind of copyediting when this RfC began, now we're reverted to a year-old stable version. Thanks for your comments, Mx. Granger. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:56, 11 March 2023 (UTC)


 * No - Floyd's death is not what makes Minneapolis notable, and is not a defining characteristic of the city. The criteria for the lead section of a US city article, at WikiProject Cities/US Guideline, emphasizes characteristics of the city such as demographics, industries, founding, and unique features. Magnolia677 (talk) 16:58, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No George Floyd (and anything George Floyd-adjacent e.g. Chauvin, the protests, etc.) is not a notable or common characteristic associated with the city of Minneapolis. The events are only tangential to the city itself and adding them to the lead is WP:RECENCY bias. Some1 (talk) 18:10, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No Per WP:RECENTISM. - Nemov (talk) 22:03, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No per WP:RECENTISM. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  08:46, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No per WP:RECENTISM. The fact that his death occurred in the city is not an inherent characteristic of the city. Grahaml35 (talk) 22:40, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No zero educational value about the place. Moxy -Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg 23:02, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No per WP:RECENTISM, and while a historical event I'm not sure it's so overwhelmingly central to the state itself to be mentioned in the lead.--Ortizesp (talk) 06:05, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No per the editors above. Though I do feel a little bad about it that information belongs in the body of the article not in what should be an introductory summary about the city. BogLogs (talk) 09:28, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No per Magnolia677. This is RECENTISM and is not a defining characteristic of Minneapolis.  Iamreallygoodatcheckers talk 03:53, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * This discussion is snowing.  Iamreallygoodatcheckers talk 03:55, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Request for closure here. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:29, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Wide image


You reverted my edit, and re-inserted this image using Template:Wide image. The image is not categorized as a "panoramic", its dimensions are dissimilar to the example at WP:PIC, and it adds significant whitespace to the article. Also, WP:PIC suggests using the wide image template for "Images wider than 550px or so". You added it as 500 px. Could you explain? Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 08:30, 6 April 2023 (UTC)


 * See Talk:Minneapolis/Archive 10 above; perhaps your edit occurred while I had the article to correct citation issues (tedious work).  In trying to track down the error introduced in the intermediate edits, I gave up and started over. As indicated above, I thought I had reinstated your edit afterwards; if I missed something, please feel free to re-do it.  I hope there is a better way to address that image, as it would make sense to see it wide, although the white space has been troubling me as well. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  13:34, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * That is, it strikes me that if someone could crop the bottom batch of green-tree space and some of the top blue sky from this image, its dimensions could be made more conducive to a wide image. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  13:44, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I've put out queries re cropping the image (and the other outstanding issues listed above). Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:50, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, while you are here, have you looked at so we can begin a fresh look pre-FAR? Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  13:42, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm going to change this to 1000px like Boston and Cleveland. If Magnolia is willing, he can crop the photo. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:51, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The images at Boston and Cleveland are scaled such that a wide image is not too tall; in this case, stretching it to 1000px makes for a gynormous image, which could be solved by cropping it to cut off some of the top and some of the bottom. (Sorry, can't do it myself, don't do images.) Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  18:33, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * This is done. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:46, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Two stars
The Sperling city ranking book of 400 metros reports that the Minneapolis metro area (as well as NYC) was one of the "biggest losers" in the 2007 edition. It dropped from #28 to #262 (for crime, cost of living, commute, and climate). Already noted here was MSP's drop to 5th in parks. I know WP:USCITIES recently discouraged the use of rankings but this was a strong headwind before the pandemic and murder of Mr. Floyd, and right around the time this article first went for FA review. Now Mr. Sperling runs bestplaces.net that gives Minneapolis (and NYC) 2 of 5 stars. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:14, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Next pass: FAR prep

 * See Talk:Minneapolis/Archive 10 for earlier pre-FAR work. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  13:25, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Reliable ??
Likely to be questioned at FAR: Be prepared to explain how these sources meet WP:RS (if they do). Sandy Georgia (Talk)  23:57, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Shanghairanking.com
 * topuniversities.com
 * southwestvoices
 * What do you want to see instead? I have consulted WikiProject Higher education, College and university article advice, a B-class article according to the WikiProject: College and university rankings. Also looked at Boston and Cleveland, neither of which seems to follow a standard. Boston cites the Carnegie Classification and membership in the Association of American Universities. Cleveland cites US News & World Report. Shanghai and QS that you singled out here are two of the three "internationally recognized" college ranking orgs.
 * I used Southwest Voices to replace the Southwest Journal that went extinct recently. Southwest Voices says only they are journalists and member-funded. If I have to, I will find alternate sources but this is pretty difficult when the pandemic ran local papers out of business. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:40, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Just be prepared to answer if queried. That is, gather your facts. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:49, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * RSN tells me Twin Cities news outlets Southwest Voices, Racket, North News, Heavy Table, KRSM, and NewPrensa have joined forces under the banner of Twin Cities Media Group to be one-stop shop for local advertisers.. Southwest Voices and Racket can never replace Southwest Journal and City Pages but both were cleared to use in non-controversial local news. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:26, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, the three universities ranking organizations used are all fine. I don't expect they'll be questioned. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:48, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Citation issues

 * Some page nos missing on books
 * Thank you! Both (#14 and #27) are books cited inside Notes. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:37, 8 April 2023 (UTC) Fixed now. Maybe someone will double check them because they are confusing. I have an ancient physical copy of one of them in another city. MN Historical Society uses their Borealis Books imprint, and Lerner Publishing is using Zest Books.-SusanLesch (talk) 23:41, 8 April 2023 (UTC) P.S. I went over these again. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:09, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Incomplete citation: No publisher listed: "City of Lakes Loppet (USA) – Worldloppet". Archived from the original on April 14, 2021. Retrieved March 3, 2021.
 * Sometimes publishers are listed as websites, causing inconsistency between citations. Pick a format, make it consistent.  Using the website always causes problems, as it italicizes publishers which need not be in italics.
 * * As another example of same, sometimes we have US Census Bureau, and others we have data.census.gov (my suggestion is US Census Bureau as publisher, and if you really need the data.census.gov, that is listed as Work= )
 * * Another: carleton.edu ... why not publisher= Carleton College ?


 * Sometimes publishers are wikilinked, other times they are not; what is the citation style here ?
 * I can go either way. I prefer to link authors who have Wikipedia articles. But I see no need to link every instance of every publication and organization.-SusanLesch (talk) 23:11, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Sandy Georgia (Talk)  23:57, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Most of these are done and I can finish Monday. I changed back to US from U.S. because I will be a typo machine the other way. Main exceptions are U.S. Bank, U.S. Bank Stadium, and U.S. Pond Hockey Championships (none of which should we change).-SusanLesch (talk) 22:58, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

How should two-part publishers be handled? I found two ways: "Gale Family Library, Minnesota Historical Society" and "US Census Bureau: American Community Survey". -SusanLesch (talk) 14:31, 10 April 2023 (UTC)


 * For example, publisher = US Census Bureau, work= American community survey. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  21:46, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Are these two remaining compound refs acceptable? I have no combined source. Under Sports, hosting of major sporting events, and under Music, list of opera companies. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:02, 10 April 2023 (UTC)


 * See note; the bundled citation was unnecessarily cumbersome and will be hard to update. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  22:03, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
 * There are 22 instances of postscript= meaning 22 cumbersome refs. I changed one as an example, to leave them bundled but easier to decipher.  That is a personal preference so I leave it to others to decide if that is more workable and to either revert mine or change the rest.  I find the long unbroken steams very hard to read. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  22:07, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I unbundled every instance of "postscript=" (and have learned not to make these in the future!). -SusanLesch (talk) 16:05, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Should a report (that's used three times) be recited inline, or should it be sfns and added to Journal articles in works cited? -SusanLesch (talk) 15:02, 10 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Indifferent, as long as you are internally consistent. Since it's not actually a book, and not actually a journal article, I feel like it's OK as is. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  22:10, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Outstanding issues
From Sports. If [the Wild] play in St. Paul, why are they listed here? To stop visitors from adding them. This was probably the most frequent drive-by edit to this article. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:36, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for starting this list, Susan, as I had lost track. I don't feel this is an optimal solution. Could we not deal with this via a hidden comment to not add the Wild?  Or could we find a source that gives some connection between them and Minneapolis proper ? Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  15:36, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Looked for but did not find a source that fits, so removed the two teams and put in an HTML comment. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:43, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

WP:USCITIES guidelines say under sports, "It is common practice for sports sections to include discussions of teams that are within the metro area, even if the team's home venue is outside the city limits." Does that mean we ought to include both soccer and hockey? I believe so.-SusanLesch (talk) 17:42, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Is there a written rule that we cannot use search results as a source? I looked at WP:RS and didn't find it but think I have seen it somewhere. (The state of Minnesota has all these schools in a database but only retrieves them with search.) -SusanLesch (talk) 20:00, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * When we get to the point of pinging her in, Nikkimaria will be able to answer that; for now, not to worry ? Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:37, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Are you perhaps thinking of WP:ELNO #9? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:25, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Could be! (Wondering how you knew this one.) I take it then that search results are not prohibited? -SusanLesch (talk) 18:21, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The only other relevant guideline I'm aware of on the topic is WP:SWYRT, which wouldn't apply here. I will mention that there have been objections raised at RSN and similar to broad search results being used as a citation - eg "So-and-so published 10 books" cited to a Google Books search page. But more "niche" search results of the kind I think you're describing have been used as sources in other FAs, particularly in music articles where awards records are often accessed that way. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:26, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Nikkimaria. No idea where I picked this up. I understand the distinction you made. Best wishes, SusanLesch (talk) 13:45, 9 April 2023 (UTC)


 * I used this bizarre converter at the LOC. It turns 13 digits that begin with 978 into smaller hyphenated numbers that start with 0. But underneath this converter is a note to ONLY USE isbns that begin with 978 or 979. I give up. What is required? (For an example, J. K. Rowlings has some books beginning with 978 and some starting with 0.) This is an easy task once I understand what is needed. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:13, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I will post queries to figure out who speaks this language; I don't :) Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:38, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * No one has responded, so I say let someone sort it at the FAR if anyone complains. That's one of those things that someone eventually comes along and fixes (and even FAs are unfinished). Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  22:11, 14 April 2023 (UTC)


 * User:Svenskbygderna, can you double check the section "2020 census and 2021 estimates"? -SusanLesch (talk) 23:38, 12 April 2023 (UTC)


 * User:WikiWikiWayne, can you go through to add archive-urls? I suspect there is no hurry; this could be done at the end of FAR. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:38, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Economy (new)
I have rejigged the Economy section to deal with WP:ACCESSibility of tables (although I don't know if I've gotten everything), and to improve the flow. Hard red spring wheat is a wheat variety; it does not have commas, and as this may not be widely understood, I've duplicated the wikilink. Question, : I don't have access to Lass. Have I introduced original research with this addition? Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:32, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You did well. Lass says flour milling "stimulated banking in Minneapolis" (p. 164) and lumbering made the "first major accumulation of capital" (p. 181). I like your new reordering. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:42, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Great; glad I didn't goof, and the text seemed to imply that the source would support this. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:44, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Parks and rec
Approximately 15 percent of land in Minneapolis is parks, in accordance with the 2020 national median, and 98 percent of residents live within 1/2 mile of a park. 
 * Where do I find this comparison to the median (I'm not seeing it)? Sandy Georgia (Talk)  16:02, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * In the first reference. "15% of Minneapolis's city land is used for parks and recreation. National median 15%" -SusanLesch (talk) 16:48, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thx, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  18:29, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Is it worth mentioning that MPLS spends $317 per person according to the source-- relatively high compared to others? Sandy Georgia (Talk)  16:02, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Not a big deal IMO. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:48, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Should we be mentioning MPLS fell from 1st to 5th ? Sandy Georgia (Talk)  16:02, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I think we did used to say that. Probably removed during the purge of rankings. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:48, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * That is, are there any factors that led to this decline that are worthy of mention from a POV standpoint? Sandy Georgia (Talk)  18:34, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * From the Star Tribune, "This year, the ParkScore Index looked closely at how cities are using parks to combat the climate crisis." Minneapolis redesigned North Commons Park which wasn't something ParkScore covered. Anything more than that would be difficult for me to say (I don't have another source). -SusanLesch (talk) 16:20, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I think you're right we need to say that. Added back in now. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:23, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Today's Star Tribune explains this a little. Apparently The Trust for Public Land methodology is playing catch up to the Twin Cities. In any case they ranked Minneapolis at third for 2022. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:33, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Datedness?
This is a 2003 source: is it current? Sandy Georgia (Talk)  18:41, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Water supply is managed by four watershed districts that correspond with the Mississippi and the city's three creeks.
 * Yes, it is still accurate but I updated the source. Good catch, thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:43, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Theatre
This statement doesn't say anything, is basically just promotional, and should be replaced with something of substance: In searching for a better source and something worth saying, I came across: which is great for what we need, but is 2002 (dated). Can anyone find something like that, but more recent? The cultural sections here are cited to self a lot, and it should be possible to do better. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  19:02, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * , Minneapolis has numerous theater companies.
 * Twin Cities Thrive Through the Arts, ABC News
 * The sentence you found replaced what became a crowd-sourced list of theater companies. Afraid I know next to nothing about this topic. Found two possibilities:
 * Hewitt, Chris. Twin Cities Pioneer Press. “Why the Twin Cities Attracts Playwrights – and Usually Keeps Them,” May 21, 2015.
 * Minneapolis/St. Paul Season in Review 2020/21 by Eric del Rosario (Readable in Wikipedia Library) actors react to George Floyd's death and the pandemic -SusanLesch (talk) 23:24, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I can't access those; can you quote any usable bits (they should be general descriptions of the arts scene rather than specific reviews or specific seasons). Sandy Georgia (Talk)  02:00, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * this might be useful if you can get hold of it. ISBN 9780873519717, "An inside look at Twin Cities theater and how Minneapolis-St. Paul became home to one of the nation's most vibrant and innovative theatrical communities." Sandy Georgia (Talk)  13:34, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Another: Minneapolis magazine, history of theatre. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  13:39, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Curtain up, Star Tribune. Sandy Georgia (Talk)
 * None of the sources we have so far impress me much (no index, gabby writing style). But perhaps we can make something useful. I think it is fair to single out the Playwrights' Center since they briefly helped advance the career of August Wilson. How's this?
 * Fifteen of the fifty-five Twin Cities theatre companies counted in 2015 by Peg Guilfoyle had a physical site in Minneapolis. About half the remainder performed in variable spaces throughout the metropolitan area. With funding from the McKnight and Jerome foundations, the Playwrights' Center in Minneapolis awards fellowships and stipends to playwrights to develop their work.
 * -SusanLesch (talk) 15:47, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I can't see the reasoning in singling out the Playwrights' Center (maybe partly because I've spent my life in theatre and never heard of it). Sandy Georgia (Talk)  22:12, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh really. What theater interests you, Sandy? Are you an actress? I'll use just the first part. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:52, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Prose
These two sentences are not connected; explain to the reader how the first sentence relates to the second-- else, why is it here ?
 * West Broadway Avenue was a cultural center during the early 20th century but by the 1950s, flight to the suburbs began and streetcar service ended citywide.[252] One of the largest urban food deserts in the U.S. is on the north side of Minneapolis, where as of mid-2017, 70,000 people had access to only two grocery stores.[253] Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  19:14, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree there is a disconnect there, but also some cause and effect. What about rewording the second sentence to, "One of the largest urban food deserts in the U.S. developed on the north..."? -SusanLesch (talk) 23:37, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The disconnect is perhaps geographical, as the casual reader does not know what is where (West Broadway is meaningless). Sandy Georgia (Talk)  01:58, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * OK. How about we drop the first part? A lot of people in this neighborhood don't have cars (we say that in Transportation). After flight to the suburbs began in the 1950s, streetcar service ended citywide.[252] One of the largest urban food deserts in the U.S. developed on the north side of Minneapolis, where as of mid-2017, 70,000 people had access to only two grocery stores.[253] -SusanLesch (talk) 16:12, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
 * That is more understandable. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  22:13, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Loring
We can't use Charles M. Loring to tout himself, but Nadinechek and Neckar do specifically mention Loring and others (in the passage about working with "kindred spirits") wrt Cleveland's work on the parks, so I have rejigged this bit to avoid WP:SYNTHesis of sources. I hope. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:57, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I hadn't noticed the SYNTH. I rejiggered again to give Loring prominence among the community leaders who worked with Cleveland. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:58, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Art and music
and and  and everybody else: instead of cataloging a flat list of superlatives that don't mean anything, I tried to project a little energy in visual arts and music. This is harder to do than it looks. Would you mind proofreading these three paragraphs using your critical eyes?

From visual art:

Walker Art Center began as a fabulous private art collection in the home of lumberman T. B. Walker during the Gilded Age. Six days a week, a maid welcomed the public at the door offering free admittance and a catalog. Around 1940, the Walker's focus shifted to modern and contemporary art. The center expanded in 2005 with an addition by Herzog & de Meuron. The Walker says, together with the Minneapolis Sculpture Garden across the street, it receives more than 700,000 visitors each year.

The Minneapolis Institute of Art (Mia) is located in south-central Minneapolis on the 10 acre former homestead of the Morrison family. The collection of more than 90,000 artworks spans six continents and about 5,000 years. Perhaps reflecting the ambitions of the founders—for whom the name "museum" was too limited—competition winner McKim, Mead & White designed a complex seven times the size of what opened in 1915. Between 1972 and 1974, Kenzō Tange built right and left wings in the minimalist style yet following the original McKim, Mead & White scheme, adding 314000 sqft. In 2006, Michael Graves added the 13000 sqft Target wing to the south.

From music:

Singer and multi-instrumentalist Prince was born in Minneapolis and lived in the area most of his life. Prince was a musical prodigy, enriched by a music program at The Way Community Center, who first played Sam's in 1981, the year the club was renamed First Avenue. To the amusement and sometimes dismay of management—whose skillful booking had overcome racial discrimination downtown, sightseers began to think Prince owned First Avenue & 7th St Entry, which had become Minnesota's number one tourist destination. But the revenue was welcome, and the artist and the club advanced each other's reputation and influence — Prince was a superstar and First Avenue was the heart of American 1980s rock music.

Meanwhile I am done playing hopscotch and am methodically going through sources top to bottom (about half done). -SusanLesch (talk) 15:04, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your effort, and for seeking input. My concerns is the same as when I first began editing this article: removing the unencylopedic, over-the-top, tourist guide promotion and puffery.  Here is my input:
 * "spans six continents" - there are only six continents with people living on them. Perhaps "international".
 * "Six days a week, a maid welcomed the public at the door offering free admittance and a catalog". Unnecessary on a city article. Readers can visit the specific Wikipedia article for cute anecdotes.
 * "Perhaps reflecting the ambitions of the founders—for whom the name 'museum' was too limited". Or perhaps not? I dunno. See MOS:WEASEL.
 * "who first played Sam's" - what is "Sam's"?
 * "To the amusement and sometimes dismay of management" - unencyclopedic tone.
 * "But the revenue was welcome, and the artist and the club advanced each other's reputation and influence— Prince was a superstar and First Avenue was the heart of American 1980s rock music." - over the top. --Magnolia677 (talk) 17:36, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Very well, let's start with the last item. Magnolia677, how would you like to word the Prince-First Avenue symbiosis? -SusanLesch (talk) 13:08, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Thank you for your suggestions, Magnolia677. All of them have been addressed. Prince is now a moot point and has been drastically cut. The maid story is only in the footnote. Re: "I dunno", MOS:WEASEL is fine because the Mia reference is supported by a reliable source (Society of Architectural Historians), and a direct quote has been added.
 * I caution you not to remove "free admission" which you have interpreted in the past as part of a tourist guidebook. It was, rather, a philosophy of the proprietors (from Whitmore 2004, "Unlike most Gilded Age private galleries, Walker's was clearly designed not only for exclusive social gatherings but also for the cultural edification of the general public. In short, this was essentially a public private gallery.") -SusanLesch (talk) 15:48, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * P.S. I tried a couple configurations but could not find a good way to say "international" in place of "spans six continents". Maybe someone else can find an answer. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:49, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Demographics
Can anyone come up with a better way to say this? The largest concentration living in the state, the Minneapolis population of people from India increased by 1,000 between 2000 and 2010. Maybe? The Minneapolis population of people from India, who are the largest concentration living in the state, increased by 1,000 between 2000 and 2010. Thanks in advance. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:09, 21 April 2023 (UTC)


 * How about The number of Indian people born in India increased by 1,000 between 2000 and 2010, making Minneapolis the largest concentration of Indian people in the state. I assume you're talking about foreign-born Indians who immigrated to Minneapolis, right? Svenskbygderna (talk) 03:09, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Much better! Right, that is who I'm trying to describe. Only quirk left is that Minneapolis is a city not a concentration. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:56, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Prince growing up
Just for the archive. I removed a bundle of two extra refs from the image of Prince. These two refs, one of which still connects, were all we had to go on at the time. I called Lise Houlton who kindly told me the story was true. The ref that remains in the caption appeared in print after featured article review. Thanks to Ms. Palmer and the Star Tribune for their article, which has since gone 404 but was captured by the Internet Archive.

-SusanLesch (talk) 23:21, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Not as colorful, but for our purposes more informative, I replaced the caption ref again with a Sheila Regan piece. This Palmer ref is for the archive.

-SusanLesch (talk) 15:38, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Magazines
I was mistaken, the Minnesota Magazine & Publishing Association may be defunct but not since "around 2013". The Internet Archive has a copy of the top page of their member directory from 2018. Somewhere the organization might have been changed to the Minnesota Media & Publishing Association. Both use the initialism MMPA, and one or the other let their domain expire at mmpa.net. I am still trying to find a working URL for a list of members which might be our only reliable overview of local news. (This organization was mentioned in Media Tales by O'Meara and Keller (2007); who say they had 95 members statewide in 2006, and of course a good number are published in the suburbs or Saint Paul.) P.S. I asked for help at WikiProject Minnesota. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:03, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Internet Archive had a copy from 2011 and 2013. This is the methodology I followed for magazines, beginning with the MMPA list.


 * removed published outside Minneapolis or moved out of the city, (include Minnesota Women's Press who moved in from Saint Paul)
 * removed alumni magazines (journalism school, U of M overall, borderline but still dropped was extension, and school of public health)
 * removed defunct (since before the pandemic)
 * removed obscure nonmembers (Rift and Spout)
 * include one nonmember we know is notable (Rain Taxi)
 * include student publications (The Tower, Great River Review, law review etc.)
 * removed Restaurant Finance Monitor (better known is sister publication Franchise Times which was cited in Media Tales)
 * Not perfect but I hope a manageable, smaller group. Input is welcome. -SusanLesch (talk) 02:17, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

P.S. Reversed my cut of Restaurant Finance Monitor. It's used to cite other Wikipedia articles.

Climate data
Just checking the source today, the source Cornell gives a different story than Note G on the table, which says "Official records for Minneapolis/Saint Paul were kept by the Saint Paul Signal Service in that city from January 1871 to December 1890, the Minneapolis Weather Bureau from January 1891 to April 8, 1938, and at KMSP since April 9, 1938." Where does the airport become KMSP?

Quoting Cornell ThreadEx:

Threaded Station Extremes Station:		 MN - Minneapolis-St Paul Report:		Station thread 		Station thread

Station Thread for Minneapolis-St Paul Area, MN

Name Period in Thread

1 MINNEAPOLIS-ST PAUL INTL ARPT 07/2004 to 12/2022

2 MINNEAPOLIS-ST PAUL INTL ARPT (supplied by NWS) 11/2000 to 06/2004

3 MINNEAPOLIS-ST PAUL INTL ARPT 04/09/1938 to 10/31/2000

4 MINNEAPOLIS WB DWTN 05/1891 to 04/08/1938

5 ST PAUL SIGNAL SERVICE (supplied by MN SC)

-SusanLesch (talk) 22:32, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * From Wikipedia, KMSP-TV is a Fox affiliate in Eden Prairie and Shoreview, Minnesota. KMPS (AM) is in California. I'll have to call it a typo and change the note to MSP, because we are unlikely to ever get an answer here. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:12, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * "KMSP" is the ICAO designation for Minneapolis–Saint Paul International Airport and is noted in the article. Thus, "KMSP" is the NOAA reference for weather readings from the airport. Understandably confusing with KMSP-TV, but not wrong. Also see https://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lat=44.88306&lon=-93.22889 and http://www.airnav.com/airport/KMSP
 * 55401612MSP (talk) 02:36, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Much obliged, User:55401612MSP. Thank you for the correction. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:37, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Footnote help
Hi Collin. Maybe you can figure out Ref 45? Template help told me that chapter doesn't work in cite journal when a work parameter is used. I suspect that's maybe also true for url. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:25, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, I think you're right; the template doesn't really allow you to use a chapter for a journal article, since the template already considers the article to be a chapter of the larger work (the particular journal volume/issue). I think the solution you've found (including the chapter as the location in the sfn) is the best we can do absent of actually knowing what the page numbers of the chapter are. I think my local library has this issue of that journal for library use only, so I can try and go in and figure out the exact pagination at some point but I'm not sure exactly when just yet. In any case, because the chapters are all by Anfinson, there's no particular need to break up the article by chapter anyhow (in the same way we wouldn't necessarily cite each chapter in a monograph, but rather cite the book as a whole). Hope this is useful! —&#8288;Collint c 16:31, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Very useful, thank you! Anybody who wants to can download the file and find the quote in seconds with search. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:42, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

There are HarvRef errors all over the place; please install User:Trappist the monk/HarvErrors.js to have a look. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  00:15, 11 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I misspoke (sorry, tired); not everywhere, just Mason and Atwater ... but installing the script will help see and sort them. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  00:37, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I will look. Trappist the monk paid us a visit today and seems to have solved our ISBN problem; they added Format ISBN and a bot fixed them all within a hour. -SusanLesch (talk) 03:50, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I removed those; I still recommend installing the script to avoid having this recurring problem. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  11:02, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Trappist and AnomieBOT did the ISBNs. Got the script today, thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:06, 15 May 2023 (UTC)