Talk:Modest Mussorgsky

Intro revisions

 * Cleanup of name and dates to conform with other wiki bios (e.g. strike verbose "also spelled...")
 * Refer to "The Mighty Handful" and their "mission" since (1) Intro long claimed him an "innovator" without hinting why, (2) Readers, presumably here to broaden their horizons, should have an immediate reference to his contemporaries, and (3) gravitas
 * Added reference to folklore influence
 * The previous notion that only his works with lyrics ("songs and operas") had historical or nationalistic bases is false
 * Strengthened tone as a nationalist and in general. He's one of the most important figures in Russian music and of significant importance in the whole of musical history.

I'm not sure what to make of or do with that "For many years..." text. I don't think it quite fit the flow of the old text either.

These are fairly significant revisions to what I viewed as a stale introduction. I'm particularly interested in feedback from previous editors. CleffedUp 12:44, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Can you add pronunciation for both the first name and the last name. Is Modest pronounced with a long o or a short o?
 * I second this. If someone provides a recording of the pronunciation (or a link to one), I can transcribe to IPA. Benjamin.d.oakes (talk) 18:19, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * pronounced /mo'dɛst/, short "o". Not /'modɛst/, but /mo'dɛst/. In Russian pronounced like /mo'dɛst 'mʊsərgskɪj/. I'm not sure if i can provide a prooflink, but that's how we name him here, in Russia. And no, "rgsk" is not easy to pronounce for Russians too. --188.120.247.10 (talk) 06:46, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Portrait
Should we rather use the full portrait in this article? ? --Irpen 06:41, 5 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Good question. I like the detail (current version) as it highlights his face. --Viriditas  | Talk 11:16, 5 November 2005 (UTC)


 * It is not fair to put a portrait of ill composer (painted in the hospital a few days before his death), even if created by a great master, to the beginning of the article. There are a lot of pictures of real Mussorgsky showing him in various periods of his life. It would be better to find another portrait or photo, and move this one to the middle or end of the article. --Yms 18:51, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Took a cue from Yms. Added portrait of composer in his prime. Moved the invaluable (but not necessarily representative) portrait by Repin to the corresponding biographical section of the article. Hope this meets with collective approval. Ivan Velikii 22:18, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that is an *excellent* decision. I hope people will stick with it. Pfistermeister


 * I am disappointed the decision was made to revert the main graphic for this article to the Repin portrait. Yes, as Yms pointed out, it is a great portrait by a master. It is colorful, and is used by many other reference works. But is that the way to introduce people to the great composer? Although M's alcoholic addiction is an unavoidable and necessary topic in his biography and the history of his musical output, remembering him primarily as a dishevelled drunk is unfair and overshadows his years of productivity and contributions to music and art. Please reconsider. Ivan Velikii 17:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I just killed a "dead link" --- coded for a portrait that does not seem to exist. I wasn't logged in at the time. No political or artistic intent ... just though we should not have a dead link. Renaissongsman (talk) 00:37, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Defacing / vandalizing
There has been recent vandalizing of this page. Please keep an eye on this article. Itzcuauhtli 18:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Lock the article please
Some morons are vandalizing this article. Please look out for their IP addresses and give sanctions to these guys. thanks. 61.9.74.19 20:55, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Infobox
In view of the strong developing consensus against using popular music style infoboxes for articles about composers, I am moving the infobox here for discussion, comments etc., while retaining the photo on the article page. --Kleinzach 00:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Is there centralized discussion on the topic? Or an attempt to make a composers infobox?  Not critical at all, just curious... --JayHenry 01:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


 * See discussion on the Composers Project Infoboxes_for_composers. --Kleinzach 01:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmm... thanks for the link. An interesting debate.  The problems being raised about infoboxes are not particular to just composers but really any historical figures.  The dual birthdates on this infobox (or even the "Occupation:Civil Servant") are both annyoing enough to warrant removal IMO.  Thanks! --JayHenry 02:07, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Not useful. The article content is very decent and quite sufficient. Die boxen. Moreschi Talk 16:42, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Was anyone else tempted to add "alcoholic" to the box's list of Mussorgsky's occupations? After all, an encyclopaedia's chief concern should be accuracy ; --Folantin 09:11, 28 April 2007 (UTC)


 * 1) Infoboxes are good in general. However, using popular music boxes is ridiculous. Why are the classical music editors not leading on this issue, rather than following? 2) What, may I ask (JayHenry), is so annoying about dual dates and Musorgsky's occupation? 3) And surely, Folantin, you are being facetious, aren't you? Ivan Velikii 05:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe I'm just trying to start an infobox revolution, but now that it is literally 16 years later, is there a consensus? I personally am in favor, as it gives a great overview and makes it easy for the average Wikipedia reader, and also many of the "popular" composers have their own infobox (as well as a specific "composer" infobox). Pacamah (talk) 07:05, 9 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The current consensus is that it is established on a case-by-case basis, not based on what other articles do. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:53, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Why?
Why the double "s" in his name? In Russian there's only one "c(=s in English)" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.10.234.15 (talk) 19:21, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * It looks like the most common transliteration is an older one. Until recently, when they changed names from Russian to English it was a pretty informal system.  My best guess is that Mussorgsky was used so people would pronounce the 's' sound correctly.  If there had been only one 's' many English speakers would likely have pronounced his name "Muzorgsky."  The extra 's' is for emphasis.  It's probably similar to how Смирновъ in English becomes Smirnoff with two f's. --JayHenry 20:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * And why Sergei Rachmaninoff used the -off spelling in the West. A strict transliteration would end with -ov, but that's not how final вs are pronounced (they're devoiced to -of).  A single -of would also be mispronounced by many as -ov.  --  JackofOz (talk) 00:05, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably similar to Strass + Burg and Moss + Hart. --138.163.0.41 (talk) 14:34, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Antisemitism?
There were rumors about Mussorgsky being an antisemite. Yet, Considering his "jewish song", "Samuel Golndenberg" and such, it seems that he was quite interested in jewish music. Moreover, I think his friend, Hartmann, was jewish. Are there evidences of any kind? 132.66.234.222 19:19, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Composer project review
I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. The article is B-class; it needs attention primarily to reception of his work over time, and to inline citations; read the detailed review on the comments page. Questions or comments can be left here or on my talk page.  Magic ♪piano 20:25, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Oedipus in Athens
I'm sorry, but this is not an opera, and most certainly not "operas". I'm going to correct it AdamChapman (talk) 22:30, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Quotations
Why we don't move them to wikiquote? It's a nonsense to keep them here. User:Albus severus (talk) 05:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Someone marked this as a quotefarm today, and I agree. I moved the quotes to Wikiquote.  Rather than deleting all the quotes about Mussorgsky, I found that they made for a pretty coherent picture of the reception and criticism of Mussorgsky's works, and so have restyled those quotes into such a section, consistent, I think, with WP:CRITICISM.  Further tweaking welcomed. TJRC (talk) 19:57, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I removed the quotes from the Wikiquote article because no citations were provided, and they were already listed on the article's talk page to be researched. If anyone knows of verifiable sources for the quotes, help with citing them at Wikiquote would be appreciated. ~ Ningauble (talk) 20:31, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that. I had no further sources than were present in this article (e.g., a citation to a particular letter, but not to any book or other source where the letter is printed).  In case anyone is thinking that the deletion from Wikiquote is a good reason to re-add them to this article, I'd disagree.  The lack of verifiable sources is no less of a problem in Wikipedia than it is in Wikiquote. TJRC (talk) 20:38, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Ravel's orchestration of Pictures at an Exhibition
The fact that some of Mussorgsky's works are most generally known in the form of orchestrations by others is mentioned in the introduction, but, unless I missed it, this is not developed in more detail later in the article. For the general reader, the fact that Pictures at an Exhibition was originally a solo piano piece, later orchestrated by Ravel, would be useful to know. Put it this way, until very recently, I had assumed that Mussorgsky was responsible for the orchestral version of that piece. Boynstye —Preceding undated comment added 23:40, 10 July 2009 (UTC).


 * This article doesn't deal with Pictures at an Exhibition in any significant level of detail. That's treated in Pictures at an Exhibition, where there's quite a bit of discussion of the various orchestrations. TJRC (talk) 00:07, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Criticism section
All quotes require sources, and if you are going to pick and choose criticism from primary sources, you need to show that it is notable with secondary sources. Viriditas (talk) 00:27, 11 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed, and I'd have to add that you'd never know how popular much of his work has been for over a century - and deservedly so - from the tone of the article and the rawness of the 'criticism' section. The 'red-nose' picture, for example: what's the point here, to compliment the acidity of the text? What's next, a picture of Beethoven in a nightgown holding a wooden stick to his piano in his teeth, with a moldy bowl of mac and cheese sitting nearby? Have mercy. Twang (talk) 18:19, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

On a separate question, it appears to me that the Lyadov quotation is very favorable. He says that Mussorgsky's music should not be "regularized" because it has unique good qualities. Anyhow, why is there a "Criticism" section and not a "Reception" section with criticism and the many favorable remarks about Mussorgsky? Zaslav (talk) 18:54, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Karevo's location
Is Karevo "south-south-east of Saint Petersburg" as the article claims? Shouldn't the direction be southWEST? Check it out. Rammer (talk) 02:40, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Spelling of the name
The following was inserted in the article by SingingZombie, I'm moving it here...
 * CORRECT NAME: The above paragraph contains a very common error. In fact there is no "g" in Mussorsky's name in Russian, neither written nor pronounced. The correct spelling is "Мусорский" with no "г". In fact the correct Russian pronounciation is "MOOSer-ski", with the accent on the first syllable.[Ref: See any Russian dictionary or music-textbook, or, ask any Russian, or any student of Russian.]

I disagree per Naming conventions (people): this is the English wikipedia, so we use English spellings by default and cannot go beyond what the referenced works use. All the cited refs spell with a "g" so we need substantial cites of comparable quality to change it, or at least reliable sources to support mentioning this alternate spelling. DMacks (talk) 02:09, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Pictures at an Exhibition recording
Hi, is there a good reason why pictures at an exhibition is represented in audio on this page as an arrangement for 2 pianos? I feel this piece should be represented on this page in the format that Mussorgsky wrote it for, which was solo piano. --James dude2000 (talk) 08:40, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Rimsky-Korsakov's Quote
"Yes, Mussorgsky is little short of an idiot."

I don't know whether this quote is real, or if it was made up by a random guy to mislead people. If it is real, can you please site your sources? If it is not real, THE POSTER OF THIS QUOTE ON WIKIPEDIA SHOULD BE BANNED FROM EDITING WIKIPEDIA! Can you please help us? And by us, I mean everybody in the world that will read this splendid article. Just help the world. OK? Shizzlecraft1 (talk) 21:42, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I see the quotation from Mily Balakirev, in reply to a similar sentiment from Stasov, but I cannot find this quotation attributed to Rimsky-Korsakov. Could you help me locate the spot you mean? Whether or not this is a case of mistaken identity, you are of course perfectly correct: Sources are not optional for cases like this on Wikipedia, and there is a simple method of dealing with them by inserting a "citation needed" tag.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:22, 27 June 2015 (UTC)


 * FWIW, the Stasov comment and Balikirev reply were removed from Modest Mussorgsky in 2009 as inadequately sourced; see the talk page there. I see I commented that I had no access to JSTOR to check on them.  I have access now, I'll see if I can find that.  TJRC (talk) 18:59, 29 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I've added cites for all three quotes being discussed here: Stasov's, Balikirev's and Rimski's. TJRC (talk) 21:09, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 00:15, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified (February 2018)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Modest Mussorgsky. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110308212934/http://turgenevmusica.info/en/musorgsky.html to http://www.turgenevmusica.info/en/musorgsky.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 09:30, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

The bottom line
Let's cut it short. Practically all major (and lesser) pianists have played Mussorgsky during the last 100 years. This can be documented ad nauseam. One of the most famous concert of one the most famous famous piano players (Sviatloslav Richter) main piece is Pictures of an Exhibition. You can go a long way, and beyond, with his music. The article is bland as is. Mussorgsky is a major composer. Period.

And sorry, but "Mussorgsky's single-movement orchestral work Night on Bald Mountain enjoyed broad popular recognition in the 1940s when it was featured, in tandem with Schubert's 'Ave Maria', in the Disney film Fantasia." is too US-centric. Can we think and assess music independently of Disney (even if tasteful) usage? Even if we can acknowledge the positive influence of the diffusion of that music by Disney.

Again, Mussorgsky is a major World composer, regardless of what Russians (who never forgot him) and Americans (who think they rediscovered him) think of him. Can we agree to that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Frederic Y Bois (talk • contribs) 21:22, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

AI-produced photo
Why is the child portrait AI-enhanced? The original is good enough. Let's not invent history. 2603:8000:F201:2879:988D:8D9C:2A62:D13D (talk) 05:39, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I killed it. It's the same photo as File:Modest-Mussorgsky-young.jpg, already included higher up in the article, and the AI-dehancement detracts from the article, it does not help it. TJRC (talk) 21:12, 3 December 2021 (UTC)