Talk:Murad I

my my, why Thai?
Why does there appear to be a Thai-alphabet caption under the photo?? AnonMoos 16:30, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I removed it. Even if it was "Murad I" in Thai (which I don't know), it is out of context to put Thai in an article about an Ottoman sultan (just like any other to the Ottomans unrelated language would be). It was added by an anon here. /The Phoenix 14:51, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Offers

 * In my opinion, we should add a section about Savcı Bey( Savcı Bey was the son and the heir of Murad I. but he betrayed his father).


 * His son, Yakup, was murdered because they thought that he would want to be the new ruler. This happened just after the death of Murad I.

I want to add these details without giving any damage to this well organized article.Deliogul 15:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Second Picture
The miniature picture, why is it there? It was made in the 20th century, and looks nothing like him. Let's scrap it.24.36.198.179 22:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

the name "murad"
Okay, this maybe quite random, but the outcome could be interesting. I'm really curious about the name "Murad". The name, apparently comes from Arabic, in which the word means wish, goal, aim, etc. However the name does not have any religious or aristocratic connotations. To tell the truth, there is no ruler before Murad I that was given this name. So the name - since its in Arabic - is not Turkic, but it had not been widespread among the Muslim culture either. It seems quite peculiar to name a ruler a name that has no royal, religious, or whatsoever context. Also, the name "Murad" appears before Murad I, only as a name for an insignificant tribe in Arabic peninsula during Mohammed's reign. Am I being too curious here? Anyway, I just wanted to ask you people whether you know/guess anything about this? If we found something, it could be interesting to add it to the article. --Quinlan Vos (talk) 18:55, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Very good question indeed. Actually it is a very common name all through Middle East, Caucuses, Eastern Europe and Asia.  Common even among some non-Muslims like Armenians.  Though the word is of Arabic origin, it does not seem that they have used it as a name.  Turks seem to be the first to make that choice.  Naturally it has shown regional variations.  "d" ending is the Arabic word, "t" ending is the common and modern Turkish version.  There were a total of five Ottoman Sultans with this name. Murat (talk) 03:24, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Murad and Poisoned Knive
Povijest Bosne - Account of Bosnia

By Salih Sidki Hadzihuseinovic

A Bosnian living in the Ottoman Empire around 1878

Poglavlje 1: Od prahistorije do gubitka bosanske srednjovjekovne drzavnosti

Chapter 1: From prehistory till the loss of medieval Bosnian independence

..... (Skipping many pages till the end of this chapter)

"... Because he had offered to, as a scout, take the imperial army... ... the Sultan in the year 789 (1387/1388 A.D.) sent an aid with 20,000 soldiers toward Bosnia, along with the above-mentioned Lala Shahin-Pasha. Because he listened to the aid's suggestions, Lala Shahin-Pasha ended up entering the Bosnian lands. In the beginning, since there was no one there to stand up against him, he sent the bulk of his army to loot the countryside, while he stayed in one place with around 1000 soldiers. However, the aid secretely told the Bosnian King Tvrtko, that Shahin-Pasha's army was spread out, and that he was left with only a tiny bit of an undisciplined army to guard him.

Hearing this, King Tvrtko struck Shahin-Pasha's army with his armies and those of his nobles, numbering around 30,000. Because the Ottoman army was spread out, wasn't able to come and help Shahin-Pasha, the above mentioned king ordered his army to attack any faction of the Ottoman army they met. Shortly, Shahin Pasha found himself to have stirred 100 troubles. Even if he had 20,000 Ottoman soldiers, 15,000 of them had been slaughtered, and the other 5000 had escaped only with many difficulties.

When the Sultan heard these painful news, that they had dealt Shahin Pasha a loss which the Ottoman army had till then never gone through... ... ...the sultan was enraged and thought of revenge never gave him peace. He sent out letters to all his allies, including all Christian leaders who had earlier come under his protection and recognized his rule, calling them to come together at the field near Jenishehir (Larisa in Greece).

... ... However based on the defeat of Shahin-Pasha's ranks, the Christian kingdoms concluded that the allmighty Sultanate was weakened... ... and let the Sultan know that they had no intention to help him. And while the Sultan tried to get the above-mentioned to agree, some Christian leaders were planning to attack the Ottoman army and to destroy it... ... ...

The Serbian king Lazar had made an agreement with the kings of Hungary, Poland, Bohemia, Bosnia, Croatia, and some other Croatian nobels, and that is what set up the battle of Kosovo field.

That's how the Tzar Lazar brought together a large Crusader army and sent hem against the Ottoman Empire. Sultan Murat then, with what army he had, clashed with the infidels at Kosovo field, and after a vicious battle beat the enemy. In this battle, the above-mentioned Tzar Lazar lost his life. The bulk of the Islamic army went on to kill the retreating enemy.

The allmighty Sultan had been so happy that he himself went out onto the field, and looked around and went through the fallen bodies. However, among those bodies was injured infidel, son in law of the mentioned Lazar, Milosh Obilic. When the Sultan found him, he got up and claimed that he wanted to accept his rule. Saying he wanted to kiss his hand, he went onward towards the Sultan. Even though the Sultan's advisors tried to prevent this, he was eventually allowed. So he came close to the Sultan and with a tiny poisoned knife which he had hidden in his hand, stabbed him in the stomach, killing him. The killer was killed right then and there.

This battle occured on Monday, 15th Shabana, in the year 791 (15th VI, 1389/1390 Islamic country) and is among the most important battles of the Ottoman empire. With that battle, the Serbian kingdom was destroyed, and so was their honor and pride, and that is for them a big misfortune and shame. When they talk of it, they talk about it regretfully, for in that battel had died the Serbian King Lazar, his 'tast' Jug Bogdan and 9 of his 'Shura', and Milos Obilic, son in law of Lazar, and Ivan Kosancic, and Milan, warlord of Toplica, and Stefan Music, allfell, and most of the remaining army was murdered. Of those who had stayed behind their swords, not one was capable of being a warlord.

Yet when the Christians account of this battle, they talk not of their cowardness and weakness. The Christian army had, in this battle, numbered around 100,000 people they say. Meanwhile, they also write that the Islamic Sultan sent against them a force three times that size, numbering around 300,000, along with the 'fact' that their first and most important commander of the Christian army, son-in-law of Lazar, Vuk Brankovic, betrayed them and crossed over to the side of the Sultan, so that only because of his traitoring had it come to their defeat.

In fact the Christian army had more than 200,000 knights, and the Islamic army, in comparasment, was very small. When the commanders of the infidel army saw the weak numbers of the Ottomans, they were greatly excited that they were to, undoubtedly, get a victory on their behalf. Among them, especially excited was the nephew of King Lazar, saying that he would defeat the Ottomans with just his brigade.

Some recommended to attack the Ottomans in the middle of the night, saying "Let's send them in a retreat, why allow them to escape our swords?". "Tomorrow by dawn, through an attack on the field, we will liquidate this army" said others, so the night attack was given up.

According to the writing of the Christians, thier army, compared to the Ottomans, had been miniscule... ... ...why tehn, seeing the might of the Ottoman army, had they not run instead of throwing themselves into a death-trap?... ... ... From what can be understood, both sides fought truthfully, but through the help of the allmighty, turthfull (god/allah) a winning wind was blwoing from the Islamic side and they, through god's help won."

There. That's the basic Ottoman account of it. From there, the book goes on to tell how medieval Bosnia was conquered by the Ottomans, and the rest of the Balkans overrun in the following years.
 * Note the above has been written by a muslim, who was/is definitely on ottoman side, calling Lazar infidel, so even ottomans admit to that, Lazar was already dying. There are other sources of course.

Dates of birth and death
In a recent edit Murad's death was put on June 29 1389 (later June 30 1389), with edit summary: old calendar not valid. Is the idea we should use the proleptic Gregorian calendar for events that happened before the calendar reform was introduced? Even then, the date should not be later than June 24. However, several encyclopedic sources appear to have June 15.

There also appears to be considerable uncertainty about Murad's birth year, 1319 or 1326, so I wonder what the source is for pinning it down to exactly June 30, 1326. --Lambiam 14:38, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Reign
1362-1389, please ask Turkish historians about these dates...I also changed the Turkish Wikipedia/Vikipedi Böri (talk) 11:27, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

'Hudavendigar'
The Wikipedia article on the city of Bursa says Hudavendigar means 'God's Gift.' I'm not sure as to the Persian meaning of the word, but is it possible that in Turkish the word had a different meaning than the 'God-like one?' The meaning of Hudavendigar being 'God's Gift' makes more sense since 'God-like one' would be a blasphemous title for Muslims. 108.172.143.182 (talk) 04:24, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

- The best translation would be 'favoured by God' 138.251.237.56 (talk) 18:30, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

- Actually I think it is meant as a rival title to the Byzantine "Autokrator" and it kind of translates "Augustus". Khoda does not quite mean "God" in Persian but more along the lines of "Lord". Can Hudavendigar be derived from "خدیو" (i.e. Khedive)? I'm sure Murad used it in the context in which the Sovereign, according to a Hadith they much liked, is the "Shadow of God on Earth". 161.9.110.14 (talk) 14:16, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Sections on 'wars' and 'empire'
From an Ottomanist perspective these sections are extremely problematic; they present certain issues that are historiographically controverial as fact without reference to sources.

The section on wars is obviously relevant, but we know that a lot of the conquests in the Balkans were made by autonomous frontier lords, and the extent to which those would have been directed or determined by Murad is the subject of historical controversies. The detail provided on Serbian expeditions is interesting but perhaps not particularly relevant.

Likewise, the information provided in the 'Establishment of Empire' section is all very interesting and entirely relevant, but almost all historically controversial. There is a great deal of debate over when and how the Ottoman Beylik (or 'Emirate', whatever) became imperial, and over the origins of the janissaries, devsirme, kul system, etc. The fact is that our grasp of early Ottoman history is incredibly uncertain, and these sections ought to reflect this rather than presenting these details as fact. (94.173.201.40 (talk) 07:16, 30 March 2013 (UTC))

Millosh kopiliç
In the part of the article describing the death of sultan Murad it's first written that he was killed by knife by Albanian noble man Millosh Kopiliç. Later in the text it is written that by some hystorical evidences Serbian nobleman Miloš (Milosh) Obilić killed him. There is article about Miloš Obilić on Wikipedia and I will link it in the end.

I just want to clarify something Miloš is Slavic name very popular between Serbs, and recorded in many Slavic countries. It's consist of word mio/milo= dear and ending -oš(osh), a lot of Serbian names have this ending Radoš, Jagoš, Uroš, Dragoš, Njegoš... Regarding family name Kopilic. Kopile is Serbian word for bastard, a child of an unknown father. Majority of Serbian (and a lot of other south Slavic) family names end with -ić/(serbian Cyrillic-ић) or -ič/ич (Slovenian and Russian). This ending denotes descendant/son of someone. For example Tomić is son of Toma(Thomas). Toma+ić=Tomić So there isn't any possibility that he was Albanian because they aren't Slavs and their names are totally different. I think this part about Millosh Kopiliç should be removed from this wiki article about Murad. Or noted as fictional and/or unprovable. Article about Miloš Obilić: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milo%C5%A1_Obili%C4%87 Toskitelj (talk) 10:45, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Savcı Bey rebellion
This section is, frankly, rubbish. It is illegible, with no citations or sources. It was introduced into the article back on 6 December 2019 by user Internetexpert41. This was a sockpuppet account for user Physo172, who has been blocked indefinitely. Much of the content added by this account has been removed from Wikipedia. I am putting the content here just in case an interested editor wishes to rescue it. Oatley2112 (talk) 06:33, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Savcı Bey rebellion
While Murad I was at this time, his son, Savci Bey, who was "deputy throne", launched a prince riot. Among the comparator candidates for the Byzantine Empire in Constantinople [ The Byzantine Civil War (1373-1379) were a combination. Murad I the Byzantine Emperor. His eldest son Andronikos in Constantinople (and then Andronikos IV And his younger brother Manuil (then Manuel II) Continued. Taking advantage of his father's departure from the capital, Andronikos conspired and declared his empire.  The Ottoman prince Savcı Bey, who was 14 years old for some reason, declared this rebellion to be a ruler instead of his father Murad I in folding Rumelia and had the sermon read in his name.  When Murad I moved to Rumelia, he passed with the Ottoman forces under his command.  There was a clash in the location of an "Apicridium" in Istanbul with the troops under the command of Prince Savci Bey and Byzantine Gaspci Andronikos, and the army under Murad I dismissed the army of Savci Bey and Andronikos.  The prosecutor fled to Dimetoka and was arrested there.  His father, prosecutor Bey was very affected by the rebellion, first of his eyes had to apply for miles. Feridun Bey  Münşeati term Prosecutor Bey "nur-ı basır mechur (lack of light of vision)" The same punishment was applied to Byzantine Emperor Ioannis V, as well as his rebellious son. However, historians report that the Byzantine Emperor was half-blinded by pouring angry vinegar into his son's eyes by applying this punishment more lightly. After Murad I had blinded his son, he could not defeat his anger and had the Prosecutor in Bursa strangled and executed. When the story of the Savci Bey ended, there was a tragic situation that began in Bursa and ended there.

Murat being illiterate
Hello. While this is given a source in the article, it makes no sense. All şehzades are grown in enderun (the state school for elite bureaucrats), and many know many languages. Some were poets and musicians or other such artists.

In murat's time the enderun hadn't been set to stone yet, but he still received some form of education, İlber Ortaylı's Türklerin Tarihi 2 page 141 states he knew Greek. A bilingual (maybe more) man can't possibly be illiterate. 31.155.216.163 (talk) 12:01, 6 May 2022 (UTC)


 * The source used is also dubious - it being from an English aristocrat in 1917 when Britain and the Ottoman Empire were at war. Secondary source needed. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:23, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I added this. It was claimed by Joseph von Hammer-Purgstall, probably in his (1837) History of the Ottoman Empire work. Can't find the primary source but found here, p. 117 saying Hammer claiming this because of his treaty with Ragusa Republic. Beshogur (talk) 15:06, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * It still seems we have some very dated scholarship insufficiently supported by recent academic review. What is written about the Ragusan treaty? Iskandar323 (talk) 10:08, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Well other people are welcome to add whether is disputed by other scholars, or how much languages he speak, etc. Regarding the treaty, he didn't sign it, but dipped his thumb in ink and signed it like that. There is not much information about his literacy actually. Beshogur (talk) 10:46, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I would not use Eversley for anything. A search for a reliable source concerning Murad I's illiteracy resulted in nothing. Although, I did find an intriguing source concerning Murad II's possible illiteracy. Needless to say, I am not sure what purpose this would serve by including this information in any article. If there was information(story, etc) leading to this fact, then I could see it being something of importance. Aside from that, it is just some random trivia that did not effect their ability(as far as I can tell) to be sultan. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:30, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The John Armstrong source doesn't look great either, what with its casual repetition of the rather tired Genghis Khan pyramid of skulls motif. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:05, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Some clarity, kindly
Can we please ask people not to put nonsense like "Davud Murad Bey, who fled to Hungary when his father died" in articles, when we know that Davud Murad's father was 21 years old when he was killed by his own father, Davud Murad's grandfather.

So how old was this child when he "fled to Hungary (when his father died)", four? Three? Did the child really "flee"? Had a concept of fleeing to a foreign country from the sultanate/kingdom/empire ruled by his ancestor?

Let's for the sake of the argument even claim that his father sired this child at age 14, the boy would still be merely seven years of age. "Fled" to a foreign country hundreds of kilometres away?! Puuuhleeeeeease.