Talk:Murder of Leigh Leigh

Speedy Deletion (January 2010)
This event was covered extensively by the media, it was mentioned extensively in the Australian parliament. It inspired a major play and an international film. How is this un-notable? Freikorp (talk) 23:34, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * In any case please just give me one day and I will find additional sources and expand this page considerably. Freikorp (talk) 23:52, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi, I think there's been adequate coverage of this event; I'll remove the speedy and if the community still wishes deletion it can be discussed at AfD. Cheers, Baffle gab1978 (talk) 00:39, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The article deserves keeping. I too !vote to keep. -- Stroppolo talk 00:46, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Well done on the article. I would add details but it would be hard to keep a NPV giving knowing all persons involved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.200.241.192 (talk) 10:23, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Rape
look just a thought as I knew all the people involved in this including Leigh. 1 the rape. The "unnamed" 15 year old; who I will not name was charged with carneal knowlege (at the time reports were cause the cops could not pin rape) but by all reports Fat Matt sexually assaulted Leigh (finger) but did not rape???? The evidence however also reports sexual assult with a beer bottle or similar. Mat was charged with sexual assault and murder not rape. Please not I am not defending this prick who I always found to be a bully. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.148.117.85 (talk) 10:51, 23 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I understand what you are saying and I think you are right however the threshold for inclusion on wikipedia as per WP:Verifiability is verifiability, not truth. The reference says she was raped so that is what it will say in the article unless a more reliable source is found that contradicts that. Freikorp (talk) 09:34, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Found a more reliable source that contradicts that. As I suspected, you were correct. I've changed it in the article accordingly. Freikorp (talk) 15:39, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Additional sources
Information that could be added to the article: Freikorp (talk) 13:34, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
 * : Leigh's death prompted the introduction of 'Leigh Leigh's law'. Can't find any evidence of this anywhere else though.
 * un-named 15-year-old had sex with 2 other girls at the party, was a heroin addict for four years before serving 3-months in prison for stealing 20 cars, speculation he received a light sentence in exchange for testifying at the PIC.
 * : un-named 15-year-old was never asked any questions about the actual murder, was detained illegally without his mother's consent.
 * Webster states he only confessed because police stated they would charge him with manslaughter and allow him to return home to his parents. Webster, however, only made this allegation at the PIC inquiry. Cross-examiner: "So that's just slipped your mind for nine years until today, is that what you are saying?" Webster: Yes.
 * About 40 partygoers were called to the police station to be interviews; they were asked to bring the clothes they wore on the night. Chaffey believed another 20 were present at the party: "We believe there were about 60 youths at the party, ages between 13 and 17 years." "Ten detectives teams teamed with uniformed police from Stockton yesterday to record the statements of the partygoers and begin the exhaustive process of cross-checking their recollections of the night." Leigh was a year 8 student at Newcastle High School. Leigh's body was found on the 6th birthday of her only sister, Jessie. Brad Shearman gave up searching for leigh around 3am.
 * Blood testes from two youths sent to the division of Forensic Medicine at Glebe Morgue in Sydney. "It is believed this is the first time DNA testing has been used in a Hunter Valley murder case." Several home-made bongs were found outside the club-house the following morning. A rock band, Cardinal Sin, comprised of four of Jason Robertson's Newcastle High Year 10 school mates played at the event. (According to Carrington 1994 p. 6, the band stopped playing when Leigh came into the club to watch her assault, and one member of the band joined in, pouring his beer on Leigh)
 * "Murder leaves a legacy of fear as Stockton residents close ranks": A petition to bring back the death penalty had been on the counter of Pablo's Liquor Mart on the main street of Stockton (Mitchell St) for 3 weeks prior to the murder. It only had a couple signatures on it. By November 8, it was full, and they had to get a second petition. Number of detective on the case doubled to 20. The three other boys pictured with Webster were Jason Robertson, Sean Higgison and Justin Anglin, along with Jan Ball, the owner of Roberto's Pizza bar.
 * "Partygoers said that Leigh had asserted that she had been raped and had asked for help".
 * Leigh's funeral service was held on November 8 at the Uniting Church on Mitchell St, Stockton. Approximately half of the 300 people who attended were students from Newcastle High. Leigh's father, Robert Mears, had been divorced for about 7 years. Mears and Shearman acted as lead pallbearers. Mears also criticised the lack of parental supervision at the party.
 * Leigh arrived at the party at about 7:30pm, after having been dropped at Roberto's Pizza Bar about half an hour earlier. Leigh returned to the party saying she had been raped and asked for help.
 * About 50 posters appeared around Stockton following Leigh's murder, featuring three male figures (one clutching a rock) standing over a female body. Posters caption read "Shame Stockton Shame: Dob the gutless bastards in". Posters attracted national media attention (Brien) though only last a couple days. Leigh's family responded negatively to the posters. (Carrington 1998). Local resident Graham Parsons claimed responsibility. (Sticks and Stones)

How did she come to be known as Leigh Leigh?
I know the talk page isn't supposed to be used as a forum for discussion of the subject of the article. Shouldn't this question be addressed in the article, though? Dyspeptic skeptic (talk) 01:10, 22 August 2014 (UTC)


 * It is addressed in the 'Media coverage' section. "Leigh was born with the surname Mears though this was changed when she was eight after her mother was in a relationship with a man whose last name was Leigh." I would have preferred to address the issue in the intro paragraph or earlier in the article, where it would be more obvious to the reader, but I couldn't find a good excuse to bring it up until the media section since it's a bit complicated to explain. Freikorp (talk) 01:27, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I've since specified the names of her parents in the intro paragraph, after her birth name. Freikorp (talk) 04:08, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Arguable BLP violation
I'm not saying that the text is necessarily a BLP violation, because various sources support various versions of the same thing. But we can't say (especially in the lead of a Featured Article) "there is speculation that he was not alone when he murdered Leigh", sourced only to a TV reporter saying "there's been ongoing speculation about whether others were involved". That statement, coming from a TV reporter, is meaningless. In a Wikipedia article, it would be better not to use the word "speculation", but if we do use it, then it means that there's serious support of some kind for that conclusion ... and given the particulars of this case, that directly fingers certain individuals for complicity in a murder. Either different sources or different language is needed, or ... probably best ... don't try to argue this point in the lead before the complicated context later in the text has been established. Bottom line: I deleted this because I had to per BLP, but I'm not taking a position what the text should say. - Dank (push to talk) 14:51, 4 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Considering the number of scholarly sources in the 'Possibility of accomplices' sub-section I think we could use a combination of these to easily cite 'speculation' in the lead. Nevertheless I can see an argument for not complicating the lead with this information; 'Webster's confession did not match the forensic evidence' kind of implies others may have been involved anyway. If someone else wants to attempt to reword Webster potentially having accomplices in the lead that's fine with me but i'm also fine with omitting this from the lead for the time being. Freikorp (talk) 09:21, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Makes sense to me. - Dank (push to talk) 16:15, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Lead picture
The building would be preferable as the lead picture (the infobox could be dispensed with). The picture of Leigh "as used in the mainstream media" can move to "Media coverage". "Homographic" is wrong (but I can't remember the right word). zzz (talk) 08:24, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I've always suspected that 'Homographic' was wrong, but the source in the article specifically uses that word, and I couldn't think of a better one. I'll like to hear more opinions on the lead picture/infobox. Freikorp (talk) 09:23, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I vote to leave Leigh's picture as the lead picture. The article is called "Murder of Leigh Leigh" and she's really the main subject of the article, not some building that most of us reading this (especially outside Australia) have never seen and aren't going to recognize. If the building was some iconic spot like a well-known monument, campus building or government building, then it would make sense perhaps to have it as the lead picture, but it isn't.  If I pulled up an article on a murder I'd never heard of before, as I did today (led here by the featured article of the day containing a link) and saw some building as the lead picture I would be very confused. If Leigh Leigh was still living I'd think perhaps there was a privacy concern even if her picture was already widely used in the media, but she's deceased. TheBlinkster (talk) 01:38, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Reduplication. See list of people with reduplicated names. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.236.222 (talk) 10:35, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Ethnicity
Of course it is a thorny issue, ... would editor of this article specify clearly the ethnicity of the victims and of the suspects/convicts? Cheers--Connection (talk) 15:24, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why? There's no evidence I can see from the sources that ethnicity played any part in this. Kindzmarauli (talk) 15:52, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Having spent weeks searching through microfilm to write this article, and being extremely familiar with all the online sources used as well, I can assure you the only reason I know the ethnicity of the two identified perpetrators is from seeing their photographs in the newspaper. No source specifically mentions race. Ethnicity did not play any factor in this. For those of you unfamiliar with Newcastle Australia, as a person who lived there for several years I can assure you it is a very white working-class suburban area; in 1989 it probably would have been extremely difficult to find a person there who wasn't white. Freikorp (talk) 21:58, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks and appreciations for the input. Would it be reflected in any remote way in the article? For any future reader. Cheers.Connection (talk) 07:11, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the late reply. I don't see any relevant way to mention that all the teenagers at the party were white, and I don't see how that would be of any help to the reader either. Freikorp (talk) 03:58, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Victim blaming in the media?
I personally do not remember much about Leigh Leigh herself being blamed by the Australian media, but perhaps the coverage was not as broad or biased in Victoria (where I lived at the time). I've gone through various articles about the case and it largely seemed the "victim blaming" really just came from the ignorant and ill informed residents of the town who wanted to project their anger onto the female, rather than from any journalistic publication? Surely even in 1989, Australian press would know better than to blame the raped and murdered, yet the introduction states "[The] media coverage of the murder has been cited as an example of blaming the victim"... how appalling if this is true. I thought this country would know better than to vilify someone subjected to such a graphic death, let alone a 14 year old girl. Ashton 29 (talk) 01:11, 25 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Victim blaming is, unfortunately, not uncommon even today. Just off the top of my head, read Gavin King's comments from 2011. People should clearly know better, but they don't. Just so it's clear, I don't think any journalist directly said it was all her fault, like Gavin King, they just tried to shift some of the blame away from the attackers and on to the victim, by saying something like the victim's appearance or behaviour encouraged the attack. As the article states, academics considered the coverage to be a form of victim blaming, citing the articles from one journalist in particular, though also noting that other journalists came to Leigh's defence. If you go through the sources and think you can add a sentence regarding how the community of Stockton also blamed her, that should be fine, but make sure you back up the new statement with correctly placed inline citations. Freikorp (talk) 03:56, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Now a FA in Chinese Wikipedia
I have translated this article to Chinese Wikipedia here and promoted to FA status, and I want to thank User:Freikorp for his effort to write this amazing article. --Jarodalien (talk) 16:10, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Speculation on prior sexual activity
The article contains the line "and the evidence indicated that prior to the night of her murder she had been a virgin". I deleted this because it is in my opinion irrelevant to the case - a person being raped, after all, has nothing to do with wether or not they had had sex before, and it is bizarre that her victimization should give anyone reason to discuss her sexual habits. In addition, the specious term "virgin" asserts wrongly that intercourse may take only one form and that its incidence thus can be deduced medically. My deletion was reverted. Is there any wiki rule that may provide guidance here? I will remove the claim for the time being. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.78.208.132 (talk) 11:31, 21 March 2017 (UTC)


 * In the future please place new sections at the bottom of talk pages rather than the top, otherwise they may not be noticed. I have now moved your new section.
 * There actually is a guideline which you have just violated. When previously accepted information is contested, it does not get removed for "the time being". Consensus much be reached PRIOR to removing the information. You do not have consensus to remove the referenced information.
 * I understand you are trying to protect Leigh, but if anything I think you are actually harming her memory. As the article indicates, Leigh was unfortunately the victim of many speculations in the media that she was sexually promiscuous and that due to this she somehow "asked" to be sexually assaulted. I too think this is a horrible thing to say; whether she was sexually active or not has no bearing on what happened to her. She did not deserve anything that happened to her that night. I added the information in question as a neutral fact obtained from her autopsy, but I think it actually helps defend Leigh's honour as it counters the media claims that she was sexually active.
 * This article went through a successful good article assessment, then a successfully featured article assessment, and then went through a further assessment to be accepted as Wikipedia's article of the day. At no point did any of the experienced reviewers comment that this information was inappropriate.
 * Furthermore I would like to state that after creating this article I spent several months working to get it to the point where it could be Wikipedia's article of the day. I did this because I was moved by the case and believed Leigh deserved to have her story told. I was deeply hurt to have to read a fly-by IP editor accuse me of adding "tasteless speculation" regarding her sexuality. . I have tried very hard to present Leigh's case in a neutral manner. Please read Assume good faith, and consider asking why information is in an article before making such bold accusations in the future. Freikorp (talk) 23:41, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
 * In order to partially address your concern, I have replaced the "specious" term 'virgin' with the more specific term 'sexual intercourse'. Freikorp (talk) 01:29, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

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