Talk:No such thing as a free lunch

Some cites

 * "Rick Hauptmann located on this Yale website an article about quotations that includes this comment: 'Mr. Shapiro's research unearthed a 1952 mention in the journal Ethics, which referred to Professor Alvin Hansen's "famous TINSTAAFL formula - `There is no such thing as a free lunch.'"' Jeff Prucher located this cite and submitted it. We would like to know if the phrase can be further antedated in Hansen's own writings.


 * Jerry Pournelle has said that he and his father[Edward Pournelle?] both used the phrase as early as the 1930's. His father was a radio personality and made up a number of slogans and jingles, but Pournelle does not know whether his father made up the phrase or not."


 * "TANSTAAFL was my father's, transmitted from me to Robert Heinlein and used by him, as acknowledged in letters both to me and to reviewers."


 * "Despite the claims of rabid science fiction fans, this bit of folk wisdom has been with us since the late 1940s. And the term free lunch is even older. The term free lunch first appeared in print on 23 November 1854, in Wide West published in San Francisco. It is a reference to the practice of saloons giving free meals to attract clientele. Of course the savings is illusory as the price of the drinks subsidizes the food. The exact phrase, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch, is also first used in the city by the bay in the 1 June 1949 edition of the San Francisco News (although this is claimed to be a reprint of a 1938 editorial so it may be even older, but the original has not been found). The science fiction fans come into the picture in 1966 with the publication of Robert Heinlein's novel The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. He did much to popularize the phrase, but as we have seen did not coin it. Some claim that he coined the acronym TANSTAAFL. But alas for those science fiction fans, even this is not true. TANSTAAFL is found as far back as October 1949, only a few months after the earliest appearance of the phrase."


 * Shapiro, a linguistic cyber-sleuth, historical lexicographer, lecturer in legal research at Yale University, and editor of the forthcoming Yale Dictionary of Quotations figured out that a 1952 article in the journal Ethics about nationalizing industries, attributes the saying to "Professor Alvin Hansen in his famous TINSTAAFL formula - 'There is no such thing as a free lunch.'" (Professor Hansen was a prominent economist and professor at Harvard University.)"

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Wwoods (talk • contribs) 18:59, 20 July 2005 UTC


 * My understanding of the orgin of the statement There is no free lunch is as follows. Before emmigrating to the US in the 1800's, europeans heard stories of how wine flowed freely in the streets, there was free lunch for everyone, and so on.  After landing in the states and being here for a while, a kindly old man was asked what he thought of America - the reply came back: There is no free lunch.  This was published, and the rest is history.  PS. I was born in 1949 and probably heard the story related on TV sometime in the 1950's.  I'm astonished that this explanation isn't present here. j.miller.

Conflicting statements on the same page
I removed the second paragraph because it looks at the issue from microeconomics level instead of macroeconomics level. This is supported by the use of the word "outside" on the said paragraph. It also conflict with the paragraph above it.

This may be controversial, but if anyone insist on putting it back, give an example of how removing "outside forces" may lead to macroeconomics efficiency (Who will obsorb negative externalities etc). That would be the only fair way to accept it. There is an example to government involvement theorem, why not offer a counter example of free market that can withstand critical analysis.

Though it is possible for an individual to get a "free lunch" (as when a company cuts its costs and gains competitive advantage by polluting the air), someone ends up paying the cost of the "lunch." Even though there is no individual or private cost, there is a social cost. Similarly, someone can benefit for free from a beneficial externality or from a public good. But someone has to pay the cost of producing these benefits.

Advocates of the TANSTAAFL principle believe markets are efficient unless due to interference by the government or other "outside" forces. The free market is seen as the solution to issues such as pollution.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Wk muriithi (talk • contribs) 15:26, 29 December 2005 UTC

conservation of energy
no mention of the law of conservation of energy or resources in this case?

Leading image
Is it appropriate for this article to have a leading image? I would probably imagine adding an image of getting lunch and then adding a caption that sort of explains the correlation between the figurative term and the literal term. Qwertyxp2000 (talk &#124; contribs) 03:33, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 14 July 2023



 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved to No such thing as a free lunch. Consensus is clear. BD2412 T 01:59, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch → there is no such thing as a free lunch – The version with "ain't" may be the original saying, but the version with "is" is the most commonly used nowadays. Marsbar8 (talk) 01:42, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Simplify further to or . —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 06:52, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Simplify per BarrelProof.  O.N.R.  (talk) 14:21, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Simplify to No such thing as a free lunch per BarrelProof. Sal2100 (talk) 15:33, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Simplify proposal makes sense. "No such thing as a free lunch" is certainly better. However, the article seems to makes a fetish out of an obscure acronym - certainly one that I've never seen or heard of. It may need to be adjusted. Walrasiad (talk) 22:58, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment: I just found a record of a prior similar RM discussion at Talk:There ain't no such thing as a free lunch/Archive 1, closed 5 April 2014 as no consensus. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 00:10, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Simplify to No free lunch per WP:CONCISE. Even with three words, it's immediately recognizable. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 19:16, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Simplify - NSTAAFL Red   Slash  21:25, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. TANSTAAFL is the commonest acronym. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:08, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Simplify to No such thing as a free lunch per the comments above. This article is not titled with an acronym, so what the most common acronym is, is irrelevant. I am not familiar with any acronym being used. Marsbar8 (talk) 00:22, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Simplify per BarrelProof. ╠╣uw [ talk ] 18:15, 20 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.