Talk:Northern soul

Irrelevent Content?
There's discission of Mowtown and Paliment in the article. How is that relevant? Lenbrazil (talk) 13:13, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

fact
FACT. Northern soul music had its roots in mod culture. scooter boys were not mods, mods copied the scooter boy culture,and thats all it was a fashion statement,it came and went,but scooters and northern soul, were around long before the mods and they are still here after the mods have gone. steve robbo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.27.156.39 (talk) 16:42, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * "Northern soul music had its roots in mod culture" vs. "scooters and northern soul, were around long before the mods"
 * LOL you made contradictory statements, how can both be "fact"? Lenbrazil (talk) 13:17, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

You are right that scooter boys were not mods but that claim isn't made in the article. However, you are incorrect about northern soul preceding mod. Mod culture emerged in the early 1960s (see "Mods!", written by Richard Barnes) but northern soul came along later (roughly 1969 onwards).

If you read the text of the article you will see that it is fully referenced from reliable sources. For instance, numerous interviews with participants (e.g. as included in the "CENtral 1179" book) attest to the fact that the early northern soul scene in Manchester developed directly out of that city's mod scene. I have spent a lot of time reading and researching extensively on this subject and the facts consistently show that 1970s northern soul culture originated out of 1960s modernism. However, it is absolutely correct to say that many aspects of each (particularly fashions and musical styles) diverged very sharply in the early 1970s, but they did re-align later (after the late 1970s mod revival)

This is a very interesting subject and I would urge you to check out some of the books and websites that have been used as references. Please respect the work I have put into writing large parts of this.Lebkuchenteile (talk) 23:38, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

DJs and clubs
I think it is time to expand this page with a list of the main DJs on the scene, the period of residency at each club plus a comprehensive list of the actual venues/clubs.

Also, I think the section about Artists and records is misleading and lacking in many important details.


 * There was a venue in the south of England which actually mirrored The Twisted Wheel in Manchester. It was called The Marina in Portsmouth Hampshire 1967-1972. The Wheel and The Marina played the same records with a few variations of artist. Both mentioned in Blues and Soul magazine. The dancing style was different as the Marina danced in line and the wheel was more individual. In 1972 the Marina changed names and most of the regulars there had to travel up north to hear similar music at The Torch in Tunstall, Stoke on Trent and The Mecca, Blackpool, where the southern style of dancing was dropped in favour of the more individualistic northern style Mick Sinden--Mick Sinden (talk) 15:30, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Northern soul dancers
Guys, this is not the place to advertise record shops. Also, this article deals with Northern Soul, not the Frank Wilson single. If you insist that the info on the Frank Wilson single belongs on wikipedia, please give it its own page, perhaps linked from this page. If someone doesn't revert this page to the version of 04:15, 1 January 2006 by Emann15, I will do it.

Clarification needed
From the article: "It has nothing to with the "Northern USA" per se. ... from northern cities like Detroit and Chicago (in contrast to southern styles like Memphis soul)."

I find this confusing. The article says, that Northern Soul has nothing to do with the "Northern USA," yet then goes on to make the distinction between Detroit/Chicago and southern styles like Memphis a sentence or so later. I think this needs to be re-done to be a bit more clear. Oswald Glinkmeyer 03:09, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the story is this: 'Northern Soul,' as a 'genre' of music, received its name in soul record shops in London. Records in the 'Northern Soul' section were those that were popular in the north of England, in relation to the clubs mentioned in the article. (There is a particular record-shop owner accredited with coining the term, but I forget where I read that.) This is where the name originates, so it is a coincidence that 'Northern Soul' is largely originally music from the north US, because the 'north' in question is the north of England. However, this scene has been self-sustaining (reviving artists such as Major Lance, and giving rise to new recordings made for the clubs,) and influential, (it should be noted in the article that northern soul was a major forerunner of contemporary dj culture, being itself a genre founded by dj selections) to the extent that 'Northern Soul' clubs in Southern California are referencing Wigan before they are Detroit. Hence the name. So basically, in good Wiki fashion, if someone wants to throw a bit of etymology in at the beginning, everything will work out fine.

Simon Feb 2006

The term "Northern Soul" was coined by Dave Godin, who ran the Soul City record shop in London and wrote for Blues and Soul magazine. He first used the term in that magazine in 1970, I believe.

I believe he started naming the section in his record shop which catered for visiting football fans from northern England and the Midland (in London to see their teams play London teams) in 1968. And as has been said 2 years later usd this for the first time in print. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.98.80.38 (talk) 12:26, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Quote: "I didn't invent the term Northern Soul, but merely coined the term to define the kind of music that young people from the north of Britain were preferring to those in the southern parts, who were falling under the spell of the changing direction that the US soul and R&B charts were taking in the late 60s" (Dave Godin in the foreword to "The In Crowd" by Mike Ritson and Stuart Russell, Bee Cool Publishing, 1999)

Andy July 2006

Misleading
I wouldn't recommend this article to anyone as it stands. The reference to northern USA is plain misleading, right at the start (though I understand the writer may be trying to convey the flavour of much NS by referring to Motown, Detroit, Chicago).

"Northern" = northern UK, as pointed out, and besides, heaps of songs deemed "Northern Soul" are from southern states anyway, or even from outside the US. And can you say it's a "musical style"? It's like saying "British Invasion" is a musical style. I'd rewrite, but it'd be good to see some more discussion here firs

To be more precise northern ENGLAND as the areas where Northern soul originally emanated from were in northern England (on a UK scale they would be mid-UK and no-one talks about northern UK anyway unless they were talking about Scotland.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.98.80.38 (talk) 12:29, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

I also would have reservations as it carries on common myths one being that significant numbers of mods (especially in London and the south east) got into psychedelic sounds - this myth emanates from the fact that a few bands ,who in no way represented the majority of working class mods changed their music with the fashion. The vast majority of South eastern mods who were almost completely working class became 'hard mods' and then skinheads and then eventually quite a few became involved with the more funky soul scene of the south east.Very few of those types of people would have been involved in anything rock-related- completely different kinds of people. I suppose this is tenuously connected to Northern soul but needs addressing as it occupies a significant place at the start of the article.

Connected to the above paragraph is the extremely misleading bit in the article about 'people in the north staying with soul and bluebeat and from that emerged skinheads' this is plainly ridiculous as no-one would deny that skinheads emerged in London (from the 'hard mod' look it is even possible to exactly define when this was as I believe the first skinheads per se were seen at West Ham at the end of the 1967-68 season spreading to other London clubs by the start of the 1968/69 season and over the next few months all over England. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.137.140 (talk) 21:45, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Northern or northern
I think the N in Nothern should always be capitalised here, see here. Maikel (talk) 00:31, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Examples
I think the page doesn't feature enough examples of northern soul tracks. Could we make a list and then integrate them into the article? Sebmcateer (talk) 20:05, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I rtotally agree. My next major amendment is to rehaul the Artists and Records section and put in some well referenced examples of typical songs played in each venue/era. Most of the books I have referenced contain DJ playlists etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lebkuchenteile (talk • contribs) 22:39, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Shome mishtake, shurely?
"The earliest recording that can be considered to be the 'true' northern soul sound is "I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch)" by The Four Tops (1965, Tamla Motown)"

"The first nightclub that effectively defined the northern soul sound was Manchester's Twisted Wheel Club and its resident DJ Roger Eagle. The club opened in 1963"

Surely those two sentences contradict each other? I can't correct it because I don't know which is right, but if I had to I'd guess that Ady's statement is the incorrect one. He himself has put pre-'65 tracks on some of his compilations. Deke42 (talk) 02:29, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The Wheel opened in 1963 but it wasn't a northern soul venue at that time. It developed into a northern soul venue later on, as the music policy changed to suit the clientele. Both statements are factual.


 * Lebkuchenteile —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.21.135.142 (talk) 00:30, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Maybe, but if the first true Northern Soul record wasn't released until 1965 how could the Twisted Wheel have defined the sound two years earlier? Deke42 (talk) 00:37, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

If you re-read the comment it says that "The earliest recording that can be considered to be the 'true' northern soul sound is...". So, Ady was saying that The Four Tops record is the template or blueprint for the early 'northern soul' sound - and it is factually correct. Had he said that it was the first northern soul record, I would agree with you. You also have to understand that the Twisted Wheel didn't become a 'northern soul' venue the day it opened its doors. Again, if you read the text it says that it started playing R&B and putting on British Beat acts (I did put examples in but they were removed - but for the record, they include the Rolling Stones and the Spencer Davis Group, who were regulars). The Twisted Wheel then gradually evolved into a 'soul only' club towards the end of the 1960s (in the CENtral 1179 book, the authors reckon from mid-1969 onwards). So, you see, there is no contradiction.

Perhaps I need to make these things clearer in the text! Cheers, S —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lebkuchenteile (talk • contribs) 22:34, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Deke42, I have modified the introduction to clarify the point that you raised above. Hope you think this is clearer! Cheers, S —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lebkuchenteile (talk • contribs) 17:20, 2 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Nice one! Deke42 (talk) 02:20, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Duffy?
"Duffy's single Mercy features dancers performing the spins and flips that are commonly associated with northern soul in the video. The song also has a very northern soul sounding feel to it."

Well let's see. The organ riff is the piano riff from Connie Francis's 'Falling', that heavy synth riff is the staccato guitar riff from Connie Francis's 'Falling', and the melody line is strangely similar to - er - Connie Francis's 'Falling'.

Mercy is pure rock'n'roll played on modern hardware. Of course I'm not allowed to say this on here cos I worked it out for myself and that's not allowed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deke42 (talk • contribs) 02:41, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree, the comment about having a very northern soul sounding feel to it is completely mis-leading —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lebkuchenteile (talk • contribs) 22:35, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Discussion with spylab over his edits (copied from Spylab:talk and my talk page)
Why do you consider the list of information contained in the Influence on popular music and culture section to be miscellaneous? Does it not serve to demonstrate the influence and affect that the music and associated culture has had on the mainstream? Without the supporting facts, the introductory statement becomes simply a personal opinion.

Also, why did you remove the extract from Northern Soul Top 500? Isn't the point of writing for Wikipedia that you have to assume that the reader knows nothing about the subject? Obscure recordings are not an optional part of the Northern soul scene, they are the reason it exists. As per the discussion page, it was and is considered important to name some of the recordings in this article. To ensure this was properly referenced, I added a list extracted from the only comprehensive published study of the subject.--Lebkuchenteile (talk) 15:31, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

It's not just my opinion that the list of random trivia in the Influence on popular music and culture section of the northern soul article is miscellaneous; by definition that's exactly what it is. See WP:Trivia. As for the list of 30 songs, it gives undue weight to one person's opinion about what were the most popular songs, and the number is arbitrary. His list actually has hundreds of songs. Why list the top 30 in a Wikipedia article, instead of the top 10 or top 100? Plus, Wikipedia articles shouldn't really turn into collections of lists and charts. They detract from the main content and clutter the page.Spylab (talk) 16:12, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

My response: Firstly, it is hardly random trivia - it is relevant and illustrative of the fact that Northern soul music has, despite its underground nature, had a large amount of influence on popular culture. I am happy to re-write the list as two paragraphs of text if you think this accords better with Wiki rules.

As for the Top 30, I disagree but I want to try and reach a consensus. Firstly, the Top 500 is not one person's opinion - the author canvassed the opinion of a number participants on the northern soul scene. It is not the top 500 best records or something like that. It is the top 500 most popular and, as such, is the most relaible published study we are ever likely to have. Secondly, people have commented that for an article about Northern soul, hardly any actual music is named. Adding in a list of the top 20 or 30 most popular records amongst northern soul fans is about the fairest way of correcting it, surely? Can you suggest an alternative because I am determined that we somehow include some or all of this material.--Lebkuchenteile (talk) 16:30, 13 April 2009 (UTC)


 * According to WP:Trivia, the Influence section, is in fact, a list of miscellaneous trivial facts. As the tag says, "Please relocate any relevant information into appropriate sections or articles." Re: the top 30 list, the current version of the article includes plenty of song titles, so any concerns about songs not being named certainly don't apply now. Although the list of allegedly popular songs is based on survey, I doubt that the study met strict academic standards for such things, and therefore is not reliable according to Wikipedia. Also, there is already a link to the full list of 500 songs in the External Links section, so anyone can see it there. Perhaps you can add some more information about the survey, but I don't think re-adding the list of 30 songs is warranted for this Wikipedia article. Spylab (talk) 17:02, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

You say that "According to WP:Trivia, the Influence section, is in fact, a list of miscellaneous trivial facts”. This is merely your personal interpretation of the guidance. I could point you to, “..a selectively populated list with a relatively narrow theme is not necessarily trivia, and can be the best way to present some types of information.” Furthermore, WP:POPCULTURE states that:

“In popular culture" sections should be carefully maintained and contain sourced examples demonstrating a subject's cultural significance. Per Wikipedia's summary style, when sections grow excessively long they can be split into subarticles, but this should be done with caution.” I have added a secondary source which supports the examples.

As for the Top 30, I still disagree – you are underestimating the obscurity of the music and its centrality to the subject. You are ignoring the fact that the source material is the most comprehensive survey available. And you ignore the fact that the link with the Top 500 listed may not always exist. At the very least, the Top 20 or 30 records belong on this page.

Hereis the Top 30, what do others think? --Lebkuchenteile (talk) 18:31, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Do I Love You (Indeed I Do) - Frank Wilson
 * 2) Out on the Floor - Dobie Gray
 * 3) You Didn't Say a Word - Yvonne Baker
 * 4) The Snake - Al Wilson
 * 5) Long After Tonight is Over - Jimmy Radcliffe
 * 6) Seven Day Lover - James Fountain
 * 7) You Don't Love Me - Epitome of Sound
 * 8) Looking for You - Garnet Mimms
 * 9) If That's What You Wanted - Frankie Beverly & the Butlers
 * 10) Seven Days Too Long - Chuck Wood
 * 11) The Right Track - Billy Butler
 * 12) Stick By Me Baby - Salvadors
 * 13) I Really Love You - Tomangoes
 * 14) Time Will Pass You By - Tobi Legend
 * 15) Landslide - Tony Clarke
 * 16) Too Late - Larry Williams & Johnny "Guitar" Watson
 * 17) You Don't Know Where Your Interest Lies - Dana Valery
 * 18) Walking Up a One Way Street - Willie Tee
 * 19) If You Ever Walk Out of My Life - Dena Barnes
 * 20) There's a Ghost in My House - R. Dean Taylor
 * 21) Here I Go Again - Archie Bell & the Drells
 * 22) Hit and Run - Rose Batiste
 * 23) What - Judy Street
 * 24) Tainted Love - Gloria Jones
 * 25) Girl Across the Street - Moses Smith
 * 26) You're Gonna Love My Baby - Barbara McNair
 * 27) You've Been Away - Rubin
 * 28) She'll Come Running Back - Mel Britt
 * 29) Double Cookin' - Checkerboard Squares
 * 30) It Really Hurts Me Girl - Carstairs


 * The list in the Influence section was almost all unsourced, and was just a checklist of random trivia until I turned it into a paragraph and deleted uncited claims. I compromised on the top 500 list by listing the top ten songs in paragraph form, and having a direct link to the full list in the reference. Giving the non-neutral, academically unreliable popularity list its own section in this article gives it undue weight, and copy/pasting 30 songs into the article detracts from the rest of the content and clutters the page.Spylab (talk) 19:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I too will compromise and accept your changes. I believe that it was no use simply asserting that northern soul has influence on popular culture without supplying notable (and, yes, preferably referenced) examples. I also thought it worthwile recording that brands such as Barclaycard Visa or KFC consider northern soul culture and music as a viable marketing tool but I will leave it at that.

On the Top 500, I think you will find more people adding to the disquiet about it but I suppose it is a reasonable compromise for now. There is not and can never be an academically reliable study to include and I fail to see how lists of notable artists/records can be permitted elsewhere but not here.--Lebkuchenteile (talk) 20:06, 13 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Every list of Northern floorfillers must somewhat subjective (as the scene was never based on sales), but I'm surprised not to see Turning My Heartbeat Up (M.V.P.’S). And maybe this merely reflects my own limited exposure to the modern scene revival, but Billy Ocean's Love Really Hurts Without You and the Temptations' "Get Ready", though both perhaps a bit more Pop than Soul, and not really Northern in the pure sense, would certainly rank among the living, breathing scene's most popular tunes. But what do I know?
 * Nuttyskin

Genre or movement?
The opening line of this article says that Northern soul was a movement, but it uses a genre box and it is placed in the Template:soulmusic with genres. Normally musical genres have an internal awareness and the acts involved in creating and developing them are are affected by that awareness. Northern soul of course did not do this, it selects existing music which is part of other sub-genres. Although it has an impact on later British musicians, it is not itself a genre. This is not to say that it is not important, but that it is worth considering the way it has been categorised. Perhaps the infobox should be changed and it could be moved in the soul music template to reflect this.--Sabrebd (talk) 16:28, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

That is a good observation and a very valid point but whilst it is correct for the early years of the scene, American soul artists did develop an 'internal awareness' of it (some even made records specifically aimed at northern soul fans). And many people argue that, ultimately, northern soul helped make black American dance music (soul music, disco, boogie etc) more popular *internationally* by creating a constituency of European consumers - thus sustaining the group of people who could produce, supply and then develop the music (see the Brewster & Broughton book in the references). Thanks for the suggestion though.Lebkuchenteile (talk) 20:16, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Notable artists
I wouldn't want to add to the list of artists unnecessarily, but given articles like this one should some mention be made of Major Lance? Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:51, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it's one of the problems with a subject like Northern Soul that there are myriad artists like Major Lance who deserve a mention. By its very nature NS is totally fragmented and whilst I see Lance as a founding father of the scene others will argue that his very popularity disqualifies him from the title.  There could also be the problem that Lance's sound was entirely the work of Curtis Mayfield, so still others would argue that he, not Lance, deserves the accolades.  Then you get involved in the Mayfield/Motown furore... Deke42 (talk) 01:51, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Photographs of patches
I'm no expert on Northern Soul patches but the three venue examples currently illustrating the article look very much to me like reproductions. The reason being that each of them has the start and end dates of the venue concerned, clearly therefore they wouldn't have been worn by those involved in the scene at those venues as is strongly implied because the venues would have been closed when these were produced. I know this is a minor point as the actual designs on the patches are faithful to the originals, but in the interest of factual accuracy perhaps the photo descriptions should be amended to point out that they are reproduction memorabilia (I have seen an original of the Wigan Casino one without the dates embroidered on it).Thunderbuck ram (talk) 08:00, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Thunderbuck. It would be much better to have pictures of the original patches but I don't know where to get them. Wiki rules don't allow you to just add images from any source without the owner or copyright holder's permission. These particular images were supplied to me by a company that reproduces the patches (along with permission to use them on wikipedia). In my defence, I have used the phrase 'similar to' for each image. The 'fist' logo is my own photograph of my old battered sew-on! Lebkuchenteile (talk) 17:55, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Modern Artists
Are there any artists from the past twenty years who play northern soul? 76.126.21.16 (talk) 21:19, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

It depends who you speak to. A sizable proportion of Northern soul fans would say that it is not possible for an artist who isn't from one of the immediate post-war generations to produce a genuine Northern soul record. Conversely, recent tracks which have the same 'feel' but updated (such as "Pressure" by Drizabone) are played at contemporary Northern soul events Lebkuchenteile (talk) 18:01, 16 May 2010 (UTC)


 * From my distant rememberances of recording technology I'd have to say that actually replicating the sound of 60's Northern soul would be well nigh impossible unless you could find a studio that hadn't been updated since then (Apparently you could still record genuine 50's rock'n'roll at the preserved 'Elvis' studio at Sun Records for instance). After that the most important task would be to persuade the artists that doing the whole thing in one shot was absolutely the best way to go!


 * As we all know there were some studios still working with old equipment right into the 80s (I seem to recall 'Breaking Training' by Larry Brown was mid 80s) but given how cheap recording gear is nowadays and how much easier for the engineer it is if you can get all the musicians to record their parts separately (*Spit*) I somehow doubt there's anywhere left that has the right equipment and expertise to made a 'real' NS record any more.


 * On the other hand there are still artists performing NS songs, they frequently visit our shores for NS specials, but they just don't sound the same with today's slick presentation values. Oddly, the nearest to that old sound I've heard performing live was a 'Swinging 60s throwback' group called Rinaldisings, but once again, on record they sound too slick.  You can tell that instead of 3 hours in the studio they had more like 3 months... Deke42 (talk) 11:47, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Dancing Tough by Chris Peacock
Chris Peacock (2001). Hardman Eddie: Dancing Tough. Echo Ltd Publishing. ISBN 1-89416-443-6

Does this book actually exist in the form stated? I can find no reference to it on the internet, the ISBN number appears to be invalid and the named publishers are a newspaper/magazine company. Furthermore, it is not cited anywhere in the text of the page. I would love it if there is yet another book about Northern soul out there top add to the historical record but this one seems to be very elusive Lebkuchenteile (talk) 17:42, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I have removed this book, and the "Pete Kreisler" book, from the article. They are not referred to in the article, the ISBNs were invalid, and I do not believe they exist. Anyone who inserts them should provide a valid external reference to the books themselves and a reason for inserting them in the article. – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:15, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Misleading US POV?
I'm confused: the intro says "The recordings most prized by enthusiasts of the genre are usually by lesser-known artists, and were initially released only in limited numbers, often by small regional United States labels". North Soul is a British genre - does this mean it such recordings were only released in the US in limited numbers? Were they released in greater numbers, and were artists better-known, in the UK? This very much needs clarification. Gymnophoria (talk) 19:28, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Essentially the story is that many obscure regional US releases on small local labels were brought across or imported to the UK, and then became popular among Northern soul fans in Britain. In some cases they were reissued by labels in Britain, but in many other cases they were not reissued for many years and could only be heard in those clubs where their owners, the DJs, played them. Single copies of rare records, originally from small labels in the US, often changed hands for hundreds or thousands of pounds sterling in the UK - their rarity gave them enormous cachet.  To me, the article seems to explain that well - what is the problem with it?  Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:54, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Northern but not "Northern" - and Dave Ball
I find these articles fascinating - I grew up in the West Riding of Yorkshire, in the 70's, Northern Soul was something I'd heard of - I'd seen the patches around - but it seemed like a Lancashire thing. Growing up I saw the back end of the hippies, and the emergence from mod (which was before my time) of skinheads & crombie boys - the crombie boys were closer to what could be defined as Northern Soul - it doesn't make sense to say one person was part of this or that - the fashions merged. Football hooligans were a dominant culture, and in the very early 70's embraced long hair and rocker chic; before giving way very definitely to a skinhead look, and the crombie/harrington/ben sherman look. This sometimes coincided with music but sometimes not - and a swing back towards rocker style denim occurred - remember that bands like Slade and T. Rex were huge (Slade were originally a skinhead band). When you went to youth clubs the sounds playing reflected a wide range of stuff - there was Heavy Metal starting to emerge from the more hippy/rocker stuff, all of the Glam rock stuff, the girly stuff like Bay City Rollers, Jackson 5 and the Osmonds, and as a kind of backdrop to it all there was Motown - ever present and always there. I honestly never thought about whether I liked it - but somewhere along the line I listened to loads of it.

When I met Northern soulies (soulie being a bit of a perjorative term of abuse) from Lancashire in the very late 70's I realised a number of things - one was that the Motown hits they'd been playing down the youth club for years were the bread and butter for these guys (but not the meat in the sandwich), and I knew them all. I also knew quite a few of the obscure tunes as well, but had never twigged them as being Northern soul - I couldn't understand why it should be called Northern soul, when a lot of it came from the southern states. The instrumental "The Flasher" by Mistura was I'm a told, a Northern Classic - I never knew - but I listened to every single time I walked into a youth club for many years.

Secondly I found out that the Northern Club scene was very big in places like Leeds, Bradford, and Huddersfield - right on my doorstep - but I'd never even heard of them. Leeds Central apparently was one of the biggest venues on the circuit. Dave Ball of Soft Cell was certainly influenced by Northern Soul, but whether he was a regular at Blackpool or Wigan I've no idea - I'd think it far more likely that he attended Leeds Central - and I'm fairly sure that there were soul nights at more mainstream clubs like Tiffany's in Leeds.

Dave Ball and Marc Almond were very much part of the Leeds scene when the New Romantic era came in and I'm fairly sure they DJ'd at the Warehouse and at Amnesia (formerly the Yorkshire Crown off City Square) - I use the term DJ in it's more loose traditional definition of 'spinning the records' rather than any mixing and mashing - although they may have.

So anyway I now love the Northern Soul sound, and sort of have the right pedigree - it wasn't until a good while after I left the North that I realised it though.

78.32.193.115 (talk) 20:36, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Deletion of Carlos-Smith.jpg by Peripitus
You state that the "Image has no non-free rationale for use here" but I think this is mistaken. The early Northern soul movement - a White, northern-English, working class youth culture - identified itself, through music, with the imagery and sloganeering of the Afro-American civil rights movement. The 'clenched black fist' logo is now wholly associated with the Northern soul movement - you will see it used on compilation albums, in films, documentaries etc. People might be curious as to why that is so and I believe the Carlos Smith image and the associated quote from Dave Godin give a very clear illustration. Hope you agree!Lebkuchenteile (talk) 23:07, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Any clubs in Scotland, Wales, N. Ireland or Ireland?
Northern soul seems to have been a very english phenomen since all the clubs listed in this article is within the borders of England. Or did it exist any clubs in Scotland, Wales, N. Ireland or Ireland during the 60s, 70s or early 80s? Just curious.

Stein S., Oslo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.209.88.240 (talk) 00:22, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Obviously it was predominately Northern English. However It was (and is) also popular to a lesser degree all over Britain - West (e.g. Bristol), South (London), East (Norwich), Midlands (Everywhere!), Wales (Prestatyn)and yes Scotland. I can't speak for Ireland or even Northern Ireland though. Perhaps somebody knows if the 'fashion' ever made it over there? 79.64.255.142 (talk) 13:11, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Surely after Lancashire the Midlands is a very close second as its spiritual home (when you think that important formative clubs such as the Torch and Catacombs were both in the Midlands). The East of England, West Country and Wales also had clubs and proportionately large followings. I believe central Scotland did too.

From what I've read the only areas that didn't really have a scene were London and the South East (eg the 100 club only emerged after the original NS scene was over), the North East of England and strangely Liverpool (strange as it is in the North West!). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.98.80.38 (talk) 12:41, 13 November 2016 (UTC)


 * So the Liverpool Mecca was in some *other* northern town, was it?


 * Nuttyskin (talk) 13:35, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 14 July 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move. Armbrust The Homunculus 11:26, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Northern soul → Northern Soul – The 's' ought to be a capital. --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 00:39, 22 July 2015 (UTC) Zacwill16  ( talk ) 19:25, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Why? It's not a proper noun. Classical music is not Classical Music. Best, FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 03:03, 22 July 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090301043725/http://www.soul-source.co.uk:80/rare-northern-soul-words/rare-northern-soul-articles/the-twisted-wheel-blues-and-soul-by-dave-godin to http://www.soul-source.co.uk/rare-northern-soul-words/rare-northern-soul-articles/the-twisted-wheel-blues-and-soul-by-dave-godin
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090301043725/http://www.soul-source.co.uk:80/rare-northern-soul-words/rare-northern-soul-articles/the-twisted-wheel-blues-and-soul-by-dave-godin to http://www.soul-source.co.uk/rare-northern-soul-words/rare-northern-soul-articles/the-twisted-wheel-blues-and-soul-by-dave-godin
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100827222503/http://myirontongue.com:80/wordpress/?p=156 to http://myirontongue.com/wordpress/?p=156
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140226102531/http://countdownbooks.com/dir/?page_id=298 to http://countdownbooks.com/dir/?page_id=298

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"Modern soul"
I'm minded to revert the entirety of this unexplained edit by as unhelpful and confusing, but will hold back while awaiting some explanation here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:45, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Removed non-free photographs of patches
I have removed the non-free copyrighted photographs of the Northern sole patches per WP:NFCCP as there are free alternatives to illustrate this article, such as this version of the clenched fist logo, for example. So these non-free images are not allowed. However, I am making a note that some other Northern sole patch logos may not meet the threshold of originality for copyright if they only consist of simple geometric shapes or text. So if anyone feels strongly about their removal, creating an SVG based upon a patch could be allowable if this is satisfied. -- Voello  talk  19:50, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

The Northern Soul Phenomenon: Wigan Casino and Its Enduring Legacy Introduction
The Northern Soul Phenomenon: Wigan Casino and Its Enduring Legacy Introduction In the late 1960s and 1970s, amidst the industrial backdrop of Northern England, a musical subculture emerged that would leave an indelible mark on the world of music and dance. Northern Soul, characterized by its high-energy, rare soul and Motown tracks, became a movement of its own, and at its epicenter was the legendary Wigan Casino nightclub. This article explores the roots of Northern Soul and the iconic role played by Wigan Casino in shaping its vibrant culture and enduring legacy. The Birth of Northern Soul Northern Soul was more than just a musical genre; it was a cultural phenomenon that offered an escape from the bleak economic and social landscape of Northern England. The movement originated in the mod and mod-revival scenes of the mid-1960s, with DJs and collectors seeking out obscure American soul and R&B records that had been overlooked in their homeland. Wigan Casino: The Mecca of Northern Soul Wigan Casino, a former jazz and dancehall venue, became the epicenter of the Northern Soul scene. Located in Wigan, a town in Greater Manchester, the Casino hosted its first Northern Soul all-nighter in 1973, and from that moment on, it became a mecca for soul enthusiasts from all over the UK. Its iconic central dancefloor, illuminated by hundreds of fluorescent lights, created an electric atmosphere where dancers would showcase their acrobatic spins and flips. The Music: Rare, Uplifting, and Authentic What set Northern Soul apart was its devotion to rare and obscure records. DJs like Russ Winstanley and Richard Searling tirelessly scoured record shops and import stores to find tracks that hadn't received airplay or chart success in the US. These records often featured passionate, raw vocals, and foot-stomping beats that resonated with the Northern Soul crowd. The Dancers: Athleticism and Individuality Northern Soul was not just about the music; it was also about the dancers. The Casino's dancefloor was a spectacle in itself, with dancers performing intricate spins, flips, and acrobatics. Dancers took pride in their individuality and unique styles, which added to the sense of community within the scene. The Decline and Legacy Wigan Casino's heyday didn't last forever. As the 1970s gave way to the 1980s, the scene began to lose its momentum. The Casino closed its doors for the last time in 1981, marking the end of an era. However, the spirit of Northern Soul lived on. The music and dance styles continued to influence subsequent generations of musicians and dancers. Today, Northern Soul remains a cherished subculture with a global following. Wigan Casino's legacy endures through documentaries, books, and reunions that celebrate the music, the dancing, and the community it fostered. Conclusion Northern Soul, with its passionate devotion to rare music and its vibrant dance culture, found its ultimate home at Wigan Casino. This unassuming nightclub in a Northern English town became a symbol of the resilience of working-class youth, providing an escape from their daily struggles through music, dance, and camaraderie. The legacy of Wigan Casino and Northern Soul lives on, a testament to the enduring power of music to bring people together and transcend time and place. Wc1957 (talk) 19:14, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * What, if anything, in the current Wikipedia page, do you think should be changed? Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:21, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Eschews
I don't think it means what you think it means 185.139.140.82 (talk) 11:50, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I do.  Adherents often avoided or shunned the more commercially successful labels, such as Motown.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:50, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Northern soul as a genre
I question the classification of northern soul as a musical genre. Northern soul is referred to as such several times in the article, uses the "musical genre" infobox template, and is included in the "soul music genre" category.

As the defining aspect of northern soul is playing and collecting obscure American R&B records and not any specific musical qualities, it is more akin to a radio format, such as classic rock, or a cultural movement, like the Mod subculture.

Here is an excerpt from Sarah Raine's Authenticity and Belonging in the Northern Soul Scene, illustration the lack of concrete musical characteristics that define a genre:

"...northern soul is not a genre within which music is associated by form or influence, but rather a musical canon which is created through practice. Hazy descriptions of what links records from different genres and decades together forms the definition of the 'northern soul sound'—is it the beat? A feeling? A speed? A music to dance to? All of which inspire a particular feeling? All of which were offered up to me as a definitions by established scene DJs."

Would like to hear opinions before I make any changes. Rift (talk) 00:29, 7 January 2024 (UTC)


 * To be fair, this article does not actually refer to Northern soul as a "genre". I typed 'genre' in a search box and it only turned up a result as a reference noted as: Bill Brewster and Frank Broughton. Last Night a DJ Saved My Life. Chapter 4, page 86, "A Genre Built From Failures". Personally I think the whole notion of 'musical genre' is a ploy used by record labels and retailers to categorise or label a product in a certain way, to try to boost sales.  A practice that has gone on for decades.  Very often musicians were labelled in a manner that they themselves thought was incorrect/misguided/detrimental/bonkers. Anyhow, I feel the article would be better served by editors trying to rectify the "Most citations are incomplete" and "it lacks inline citations", as in the template at the top of the article.


 * Make of all those thoughts what you will. As you will see, the response here can be rather slow ! With that I'll retire... because it's late and I am running out of puff. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 22:13, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Heh, the article did refer to northern soul as a genre several times before I removed all instances of the word. (I got no replies from the above message and soldiered on.) I'm also responsible for the "most citations are incomplete" and "it lacks inline citations" tags. Agreed that these need to be fixed—an absolute mess. Rift (talk) 22:53, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see. I suppose I should have gone through the article's edit history first.  There again it might have helped if you had posted something on the talk page, following your thoughts back in January. Either way, we are where we are.  It is not a subject matter that I am particularly interested in, although I did reverse an opinionated and unsourced edit today from presumably a novice contributor.  I may come back to the referencing at some point.  Thanks and good luck. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 13:49, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I have been hard at work on the article and I think that the referencing now looks better than it did. I would welcome a second opinion. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 16:33, 11 May 2024 (UTC)