Talk:Orange Free State

Suitable candidate for deletion
This unreferenced article is a suitable candidate for deletion.

Needs proper editing and a general overhaul
1. Trying to follow the history is very confusing

2. seems to be written by 1st language non English speakers full of improper sentences that make no sense or are very hard to understand —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.10.148.118 (talk) 17:34, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

On the "Postage stamps" section
What is the whole section about the stamps doing here? It seems very out of place. tpahl 00:36, 20 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Where else would one put it? The Free State was its own country, as much as Ethiopia or Afghanistan, and had its own stamps that are collected by lots of people today. At some point I expect to scan in a couple that are in my collection as illustrations. Stan 03:27, 20 May 2004 (UTC)


 * I agree that having a third of the article be about stamps is strange, as if the OFS's most important feature was its publishing of stamps. But this should be solved by lengthening the rest of the article - about the history, geography, cities and so on - not by removing the stamps section. See, for example, the Transvaal article that I've been working on. Nyh 08:24, 20 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Look at the article in the Afrikaans Wikipedia, which is the origin of the English-language version. I agree. Eventually this section needs to be taken out, possibly made into a separate article.Michel Doortmont (talk) 17:02, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The philatelists have a strange and undying love for the Republics; the books on their stamps come close to overtaking the books on the actual societies in numbers. That's part of the origin.  I agree that it is of limited importance historically. 67.85.38.120 (talk) 06:08, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

On the origin of "Orange"
The "orange" of its title may come from the partially Dutch, Protestant origins of its Boer founders.

Can anyone confirm this? 213.202.166.238 18:33, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, confirmed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.239.102.75 (talk) 17:32, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Orange comes from the river, Orange Free State is accross the Orange river.
 * lodellpdx —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lodellpdx (talk • contribs) 10:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Both are correct. Rhe Orange River was named by Robert Jacob Gordon in honour of the dutch house of Orange The new Republic was therefore a reference to both: The Orange River as well as the Royal Dutch House of Orange Vrij (Dutch) of Free was used to add to the name, to strenghten the fact that it was not a colony but a free Republic.

Racist Capitalist?
"The white settlers built their racist society with military raids against African villages to capture African women and children to work as slave labor and cattle to establish extensive capitalist farming."

I am not disputing the facts here, yes they did raid for slaves and cattle, and they did establish large farms. However the tone sounds like a line from Mugabe. Do we have a better way of putting this together?

"The white settlers built their society with military raids against African villages to capture African women and children to work as slave labor and cattle to establish extensive commercial farms."

The racist part was already established earlier. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lodellpdx (talk • contribs) 10:19, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree it could do with a rewrite! Greenman 23:08, 20 August 2006 (UTC)


 * IIRC the Orange Free State as a Republic was established in 1852 after it moved from British control (exercised by the Governor of the Cape Colony [Bloemfontein being built as a strange sort of outpost and all], at that point slavery had already been abolished in the Cape Colony and that the Republic subsequently inherited British laws on slavery. Whilst segregation clearly existed it is a gross misrepresentation to claim slavery. Secondly the Republic was based on pastoral farming of little commercial value, it may be accurate to claim that the . However to argue that there was some sort of capitalist drive is obscene. The only real commercial happenings appear to have occured in the English dominated capital Bloemfontein. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.36.9.146 (talk • contribs) 07:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree, the type of exploitation of Black African labour in the Orange Free State (OFS) could perhaps be more accurately described as some kind of serfdom and not slavery. Additionally, the attempt to connect it to some kind of capitalist exploitation is some what absurd in my opinion as (as it has been previously mentioned) the OFS was more of a pre-capitalist, pre-industrial society that was economically speaking overwhelmingly reliant on agriculture and had little commercial activity and almost no industrial activity going on out side of "the English dominated capital Bloemfontein." Of course this is also reliant on what exactly one means when one talks of a capitalist and/or industrial society.--Discott (talk) 07:21, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

This is factually incorrect, as the Groot Trek of 1838 and the ebolishment of slavery had occured. Raids ? More than likely, for slaves ? Highly unlikely —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nixcroft (talk • contribs) 13:35, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The abolition of slavery was part of the rationale for some voortrekkers to go (and not a few natrekkers as well). The idea (much stronger in the later South African Republic) was that labor relations had been severely disrupted by abolition.  In any case, the conventions of 1852 and 1854/8 abolished slavery in principle but in practice the informal slavery of apprenticeship and inboekeling "orphans" continued for some time.  Again, this was less in the Free State after the 1860s but systems of coerced labor servitude remained important lest laborers from Thaba Nchu and on local farms simply go to the mines where more money could be made (as the baSotho of Thaba Bosiu chose, so they could then buy guns).  See E. A. Eldredge and F. Morton, eds., Slavery in South Africa: Captive Labor on the Dutch Frontier (PMB: U-Natal, 1994) and a number of other works on rural labor history on the Highveld (I'm thinking of T. J. Keegan's Rural Transformations especially).  Whether one calls a person a slave de jure has little connection with the de facto reality of unfree black labor in the Republics, which even when not unfree was heavily coerced through dispossession of land and restriction of movement, just as it was in the British colonies.  That said, there is little need to hammer it home with over-the-top adjectival repetition of the point. -L F Braun, Dept of History, Rutgers University 67.85.38.120 (talk) 06:02, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

"bushmen,hottentots,bechuana"
aren't there better terms?? --Severino 08:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

In fact, these terms are official. These tribes are also named like this in German school books about South Africa. Indeed, it says: San hunter-gatherers (Bushmen) and Khoikhoi cattle herderers (Hottentots)


 * "Official" according to whom? The term "San" comes from the Khoi diminutive term for those without cattle.  Thus most "San" communities have been retaking "Bushmen" as their own.  "Hottentot" is completely derogatory and Khoikhoi (or Khoekhoe) is the preferred usage.  "Bechuana" is the 19th-century transliteration of baTswana, the plural of muTswana, literally "People of Tswana."  Thus the name "Botswana" (boTswana is "land of the Tswana"). So preferably you would use Bushmen, Khoikhoi, and Batswana (or baTswana or simply Tswana).  L F Braun, Dept of History, Rutgers University 67.85.38.120 (talk) 06:06, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Why would it be derogatory? These terms are commonly used in South Africa as well as in many other languages. The terms you are suggesting are mostly political and not natural names. — Adriaan (T★C) 23:00, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hottentot is highly derogatory in modern South Africa. The San/Bushmen one is less clear-cut, as both are commonly used. San was originally derogatory (from the Khoi), and Bushmen seems to be more acceptable to most of the people themselves, even though it also has a derogatory connotation, and San was actually preferred for this reason by some academics. The Bechuana case is clearer - it's just a dated usage. Greenman (talk) 12:14, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm, I'm not so sure about that. I guess it depends on where you are living (a regional issue), even though I am not too sure about that either. History books refer to the Dutch settlers contact with the Hottentots, places are called after the Hottentots, schools are called after them, hospitals, etc. Maybe they themselves feel it's derogatory, but I don't know how well that is documented and even if it was derogatory to some individuals it was still an accepted term. I don't have a personal preference for "Hottentot" or "Bush man" but I would be worried if we chose certain terms to be used in Wikipedia on the basis of censorship. — Adriaan (T★C) 16:03, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

The mountins around us in Somerset West, Western Cape, South Africa are still called the Hottentots-Holland mountins and the high school I attended is still to today called Hottentots-Holland High School, it is just political correctness, it is not offensive but an term used by settelers and not the people themselves--196.23.52.172 (talk) 08:56, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

President in exile
The infobox mentions that the president was in exile after 28 May 1900. This is factually incorrect. On that date the government left Bloemfontein, but reorganised itself as best as it could in the field. Most of the time President Steyn and the better part of the government remained on Free State soil until the end of the South African War. Factually nor technically was the president in exile. I therefore removed this line from the infobox. Information on the exact state of affairs can be / is included in the main body of the text. Michel Doortmont (talk) 19:51, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Major rewrite needed
Going over this article in detail, it has become clear to me that it needs a major rewrite, not just references and sources added. For the time being the article can stay, awaiting further edits. I will do my best to address all the problems, but help is definitely required here. Michel Doortmont (talk) 21:56, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Have not come around to this yet, but did add a POV banner, as some of the texts on the Boer War are very much biased. I believe this is not any editors' mistake, but is because this text is very much a copy from the 1911 Encyclopaedia Brittannica. Michel Doortmont (talk) 08:13, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Consistency in names of countries
I feel that in this article about a former state, it is necessary to adhere to the proper historical name of that state throughout the article, i.e. not Free State, but Orange Free State, as the abbreviated form of Republic of the Orange Free State.

Likewise, it seems advisable to consistently use South African Republic (as English form of the official Dutch name: Zuid-Afrikaansche Republiek) when refering to the state, rather than the generic Transvaal. Michel Doortmont (talk) 21:56, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed and, this is the former country page... It should follow the Wikipedia former countries template. This page is confusing and needs lots of improvement Zarpboer (talk) 06:13, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

State presidents of the Orange Free State
Added section on state presidents in conformity with other articles. Work on dates and sources is necessary! Michel Doortmont (talk) 16:58, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Corrections Made : ( 20 March 2009)
Mzilikazi and his Zulus : Corrected to refer to "and his Matabele" with the correct link. The Matabele are descendants of the zulu as can be read in the relative article. - Uwe Klopfer —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nixcroft (talk • contribs) 13:39, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Orange Free State Tit-bits
Found in an Afrikaans booklet called: Gidskaart van ons wêreld in een Land (dated: 1985): Winburg: is the first Capital of the Orange Free State Republic. The town was established in 1842, 3 km out of town is the old birth house of M.T. Steyn, the last president of that Republic. Philippolis is established in 1825, by Adam Kok and his Griqua's, and is therefore the oldest town in the Orange Free State. The town was bought from said Griqua's in 1861, and their church was replaced with a NG church. Flagman (talk) 10:22, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Demographics
Confusing demographics. I assume that the text means Bloemfontein when it states that 75% of the population is white. That must be wrong, as in the 1904 census, whites are 34% of the population. I am new to wikipedia, and unclear on how to do so, but the demographics section should be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jebshark (talk • contribs) 19:54, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Rural urban migration
sr 105.245.20.179 (talk) 11:45, 22 May 2023 (UTC)