Talk:Pizza/Archive 3

Pizza history
Perhaps there is too much information on the net and as my contribution was admittedly hasty and did not fit well into the text, it was removed. No big deal. Nonetheless, pitta is (and was) the Greek word for pie. Pitta had a base, the dough base of the pie, and the word is used today somewhat out of context as a synonym for pita bread sold in supermarkets, eaten with salads, etc in the USA. Pitta, the pie, however, as opposed to the pita bread of US supermarkets, was eaten probably ever since the cultivation of wheat. It would be surprising if the ancient Egyptians were not eating pies. Pide in Turkey for example, clearly belongs to the same class - in fact it is hardly distiguishable. So I gave, hastily, one example about a close variant to the pizza, belonging to that general class of pitta/pizza - but my contribution was deleted. On the other hand, there are no references about bread being covered with honey or cheese in ancient Greece as this section asserts (which does not even seem very relevant but has not been questioned), or indeed about when was pizza "invented" in Naples - BC? AD? - also not questioned. Was the name invented or an actual recipe? Some proper historical content might be useful.Skamnelis (talk) 20:13, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Picture
Why the first picture of the Wikipedia article on pizza is a pizza with bacon????????????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.244.1.78 (talk) 21:59, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Some pizzas have bacon on them. MeshBlair 10:49, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

This counts as an encyclopedic source???
http://cuip.uchicago.edu/wit/99/teams/pizza/pizzastory.htm

This looks like hearsay, not research. And it's used to justify a vacuous claim that something called "Pizza" was invented in Italy. Seems like someone's grinding an axe, here. Shouldn't this be removed? Just because it is an .edu site doesn't make it historical fact. Looks more like a class project. Possibly in web design.

Surely if the info is true, it exists in a more reliable format somewhere/anywhere. Thoughts? 24.209.175.161 (talk) 16:00, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with you, but I can't find that anywhere in the article itself.  Calidum Talk To Me 16:10, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 August 2014
Sonnyjimthe2nd (talk) 00:35, 28 August 2014 (UTC) i would like to edit Pizza
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 01:30, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Lead section
What do you think is missing in the lead section? It is quite well written, it describes how pizza is cooked, what are its main ingredients and its origin. Maybe it is somehow generic, but it is normal for a resuming section, isn't it? --Lucas (talk) 03:06, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Considered the time spent with no expressed doubts, is there any opposition to the removal of the template (with respect to this point)? Thanks. ;) --Lucas (talk) 00:49, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * As per above, I will remove the template tomorrow. ;) --Lucas (talk) 05:37, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Americanization of Pizza
Many sources seem to identify the Americanization of pizza as a pivotal development in pizza history, perhaps justifying a new section? The globalization of pizza seems to start in the US, so it still seems relevant to the general Pizza wiki page. Should it be its own topic, or maybe part of a more general section on the globalization of pizza? Avibavi (talk) 22:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Stromboli
Why isn't stromboli listed as a "similar dishes" on the Pizza Portal bar on the right side of the screen (like Calzone is)?
 * It's listed there now Abs296 (talk) 19:32, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

heart disease and digestive tract cancers
I added information about health benefits found to correlate with pizza consumption in Italian studies, specifically low incidence of heart disease and digestive tract cancers. Avibavi (talk) 17:57, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

A comment on `similar dishes'
The culinary preparation known as `pizza' has many variants along the Mediterranean seaside. For instance, in the Eastern coast of Spain (Valencia, Catalunya), the `coca de dacsa' is very popular. You can see that it is very similar to `pizza' by checking some photos of home-baked `cocas' (simply search for `coca de dacsa valencia' in Google-Images). I think that `coca de dacsa' should be included in the `similar dishes' section of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.232.150.214 (talk) 04:55, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I suppose any dish involving flatbread with some sort of topping (or sometimes without) bears vague resemblance to pizza. I'd argue some dishes already on the list, particularly the 'farinata', don't necessarily belong there. The 'coca de dacsa' sounds to me more like a corn taco than a pizza. I say the common ingredients, preparation, and regional source diverge enough from pizza to make it nonessential to the list. And the dearth of english documentation doesn't help either. Avibavi (talk) 23:55, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposed New Section Cornell INFO 3460
We are a team of students from Cornell and this is dedicated to the course project for INFO 3460. Our team plans to improve the current Wiki page for “Pizza”. The detailed plan is as following and is to be updated in days:

We plan to add the following new sections:
 * The different cultural/geographical influences on pizza.
 * EX: Chicago deep-dish, NY style, thin-crust, Stuffed crust, Sicilian
 * New trend of adding seemingly strange toppings to pizza.
 * EX: French-fry slice, ziti slice, Hawaiian, eggplant slice, etc. Abs296 (talk) 18:00, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

We plan to enrich the existing sections as well:
 * Healthy issues need more rigorous documentation and data.
 * Reorganize the “Variety” section of the article, comprised of a patchy assortment of sub sections with inconsistent detail and formatting.

Current Thoughts
We have found that the accounts for a third of all pizza consumption and that "More than three billion pizza pies are sold in America each year, and 350 slices are eaten each second. There are more than 70,000 pizzerias across the country, and 93 percent of Americans eat at least one piece of pizza per month". Given all this, is it appropriate to add an entire section devoted to the United States of America on this page? Abs296 (talk) 21:12, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

For existing sections, we have plans to expand the "varieties" section with pizza from places other than Italy. We also found that the "health issue" section would need more supportive evidence from rigorous sources. Zy87 (talk) 21:51, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Additionally, we plan to add a section on "pizza accessories" (for example: pizza cutters, insulated delivery sleeves , and the Greenbox ) Abs296 (talk)

Potential Sources

 * Pizza Toppings
 * http://www.businessinsider.com/most-popular-pizza-topping-by-state-map-2013-11
 * This source does a very good job explaining the new trends in the pizza-topping word.
 * Gourmet toppings: http://www.pizzatoday.com/departments/in-the-kitchen/2009-december-go-go-gourmet/


 * Varieties
 * Pizza: A Global History By Carol Helstosky
 * This is a book that has introduced piazza from a global perspective. It also contains a list of good bibliography sources that we can refer to in the future. It provides a chapter that focuses on American pizza which could be useful for the “varieties” section.
 * Regional Varieites of pizza: http://www.culinate.com/articles/culinate8/_8_pizza_styles
 * Philadelphia's tomato pie, New York’s thin crust, Chicago’s deep dish, etc.
 * Pizza in america - ⅓ of global consumption. “american pizza” section justified?
 * Americanization of pizza
 * Seems like a useful resource, but legitimacy questionable? maybe better for guiding research than final citations.
 * New yorker article. rise of pizza in NYC.
 * Unusual varieties globally

http://jce.sagepub.com/content/25/4/421.full.pdf+html http://www.geography.ryerson.ca/students/m2escoba/PDFFiles/EJournalEcommerce.pdf
 * Pizza Delivery
 * The Driver: Adaptations and Identities in the Urban World’s of Pizza Delivery Employees
 * This article explores the solidary relationships constructed between urban drivers as they take risks and experience dangers associated with pizza delivery. The world of drivers is “hypermasculine,” with racist and sexist nuances, and composed of five identifiable types—the comedian, the adventurer, the denier, the fatalist, and the pro.
 * Pizza over the Internet: e-commerce, the fragmentation of activity and the tyranny of the region
 * The paper concludes that e-commerce is not about to end the ‘tyranny of the region’. Regional structure principles remain important, although many familiar analytic approaches may have to be rethought or extended. The spatial implications of pizza delivery prevents the industry from being negatively affected by the rise of e-commerce.
 * India Delivers First Pizza By Drone http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/india-delivers-first-pizza-drone-kind-n117611 Dmh265 (talk)


 * Health Issues
 * http://journals.lww.com/eurjcancerprev/Abstract/2006/02000/Pizza_consumption_and_the_risk_of_breast,_ovarian.12.aspx
 * The current section of health issue needs to be improved. This paper examines the relationship between the consumption of piazza and breast, ovarian and prostate cancer. [Additional sources also needs to be found for the criticism mentioned in the existing part] Dmh265 (talk)


 * http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v58/n11/abs/1601997a.html
 * This piece clarifies some Some of the ingredients of pizza have been shown to have a favourable influence on the risk of cardiovascular disease. However, there is no single explanation for the present findings.

Suggestions from Instructors

 * Some suggestions:
 * Look at the archived discussions and see what editors were talking about there
 * Look at Wikipedia's guidelines for a B-class article and see what is needed to move this article from a C-class to a B-class. Can you find enough materials to improve this article and move it to a B-class article?
 * pizzafacts.net is not considered a reliable source in Wikipedia. Make sure you get reliable sources, such as scientific articles, reputable history sources, blogs of world class chefs, classic cookbooks, etc.
 * Happy editing! LeshedInstructor (talk) 16:59, 11 September 2014 (UTC)


 * From the TA mentor:
 * You guys look in good shape! The other Wikipedians have been really helpful, which is awesome. I don't really have much to add in terms of sources/sections ideas. Since you've gotten a lot of suggestions and sources, you might want to focus on the precise sections that you plan on adding to the article, and to start reading these sources and compiling their information, you might find that once reading the sources that they are not useful (so you might need to replace them with something better) or they might be useful in a section other than the one you originally thought. Best of luck, and remember to find 5 more sources over the next week! Nebelmeister (talk) 19:05, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Suggestions from Others
Please feel free to give us any tips or suggestions on the improvement of the page Zy87 (talk) 16:02, 11 September 2014 (UTC)


 * In addition to what LeshedInstructor has stated, I'd recommend adding information about the diffusion of pizza throughout the world (the current article and history of pizza focus on Italy, Canada, and the USA; some of this content is likely original research or synthesis that needs to be corrected). I'm not sure about your intentions and goals for your project, so here's some other potential additions for consideration:
 * pizza equipment; innovations, patents, etc.
 * Google patent search
 * possible first pizza-related patent, and second one
 * pizza cutter (see also pizza cutter article)
 * pizza delivery; guarantees, driving practices, safety of delivery person
 * IMPROVING THE DRIVING PRACTICES OF PIZZA DELIVERERS: RESPONSE GENERALIZATION AND MODERATING EFFECTS OF DRIVING HISTORY
 * Carrying and insulating enclosure for pizza pie containers
 * pizza as an economic indicator
 * Pizza: A Global History by Carol Helstosky (not sure about reliability of this source; finding reliable sources for this may be difficult)
 * nutrition and health (which you've mentioned)
 * Pizza consumption and the risk of breast, ovarian and prostate cancer
 * Pizza and risk of acute myocardial infarction
 * pizza restaurants and chains; nutrition labels; nutrition of chain restaurant pizzas
 * frozen and ready-to-eat pizza
 * see also Category:Pizza for ideas
 * sift through several pages of these web searches
 * intitle:pizza at Google Scholar
 * intitle:pizza history at Google Scholar
 * intitle:pizza equipment at Google Scholar
 * intitle:pizza delivery at Google Scholar
 * intitle:pizza nutrition at Google Scholar
 * There are surely many other aspects of this article to expand, and finding sources should be fairly straightforward. Mind  matrix  00:44, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I just would like to stress once more what has been written above, it is probably the most important point for any academic and serious research: "make sure you get reliable sources, such as scientific articles, reputable history sources, classic cookbooks..." --Lucas (talk) 00:57, 14 September 2014 (UTC)


 * About pizza in the US, I agree that a section on the US would improve the article. But looking into it, I see that Wikipedia already has an article on Pizza in the United States. That might be a better place for adding new information about the US. Then, when you create this article's section on "Pizza in the United States", use it to summarize the main points from the main article, namely Pizza in the United States. That way you would be improving 2 articles. See this article's History section for an example of how to summarize and link to another article.
 * About health, yes, definitely. It would be great if you could expand that section. The key here is good sources. There are always lots of articles in the newspaper about the latest study on food and health, but try to avoid those. A better source is a government agency, experts in the field, etc. If you do start from a newspaper article, try get the original paper they are basing the story on. And better than one paper is a general review of recent research on health effects by a nutritionist or public health expert. If you can find that, that is the very best. Also, I forget the name, but there is a well-known NGO in Washington D.C. that tracks and tries to influence legislation on food from a health perspective. They would be a good source. The best source we had a dead link from 2004 to the the UK Food Standards Agency. I fixed the link, but it's still old. You could try checking to see if they have released anything more recent.
 * About the Greenbox, I would stay away from that. It's just a patent and not even a product yet. Patents are what we call "primary sources", where you have to supply the interpretation and explain why this is significant. "Secondary" sources where an expert supplies the interpretation are better. For more information about our policies there, you could see this guideline: WP:PRIMARY. This is very important, and if you could come away with a good understanding of that, it would be great.
 * Reorganizing the “Variety” section is a very good idea. Please do!
 * So, good luck, and hope this helps. --Margin1522 (talk) 05:28, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi Margin1522, We ended up moving most of the details from the variety section to a more appropriate page. Abs296 (talk) 18:38, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for providing this valuable source. We will try to improve the existing Italian one and get more information from the American Wiki. --zy87 (talk) 10:28, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposed Plan for American Pizza
--zy87 (talk) 22:28, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
 * History
 * Italian immigrant
 * American Solider
 * Consumption
 * Statistics Data
 * Retail place: Pizza Hut, Papa John, etc.
 * Frozen Pizza
 * Culture
 * American ways of transforming immigrant food

Collaboration from TAFI
Hi, we are a group of editors who organize a weekly collaboration over at WP:TAFI. As luck would have it, we were scheduled to improve this article this week as well. We have started a discussion about this conflict over on our project talk page, and for the time being we have put our collaboration on pause until we can get more details about your course and your timeline.

In general, it looks like you have the right idea on what areas you are going to work on, I believe we had similar plans. Could you, in brief, give some details about your course, and how we as a group of active, experienced editors might assist you in the improvement of your article? I think you may discover that we can be a valuable asset over the course of your class collaboration. -- Nick Penguin ( contribs ) 16:19, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi NickPenguin! Thanks so much for reaching out to us. We would love to work with you on editing the page, your experience will be extremely valuable to us. As part of our course we will be working on the page for approximately 2-3 more weeks and making some edits to the content, grammar, formatting (if necessary). According to our Professor (LeshedInstructor), the extent of our edits will only be 'minor edits' in the eyes of experienced wikipedians. I think the most valuable way TAFI can assist us will be to monitor the page/talk page/edits we make and give us advice and feedback to ensure we are making appropriate contributions. Does that sound like something you or TAFI would be able to assist us with? Abs296 (talk) 22:54, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
 * For sure, I think many of us who actively work on the TAFI would be interested in keeping an eye on how this develops. Looking at some recent activity, I would suggest the class emphasize a worldwide viewpoint. It is easy for American students going to school in America to write about their own experience, but they might find it an interesting challenge to do some research and write with a globalized perspective.
 * I guess my real question is what do you expect of your students? Do you essentially want a long list of suggestions on how to improve the article? For example, looking at the pizza article and several related articles, I would immediately merge History of pizza into pizza, because although the history of pizza is likely notable subject, there is not enough content in either article to justify a WP:SPLIT. Other subject related articles, I would also merge Pizza in the United States with List of pizza varieties by country, since the broader titled article would likely receive more attention in the long run.
 * I agreed with your point and attempted to merge History of pizza into pizza but a bot reversed my changes on the History of pizza page. I updated and improved the history section of Pizza but now its a duplicate of History of pizza. Abs296 (talk) 19:40, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
 * In my experience, there is a lot of duplicated effort on Wikipedia; there is already perfectly acceptable content located elsewhere, and it could easily be merged or copied into this article. Taking a look at the pizza template reveals several other good areas to mine for content. -- Nick Penguin ( contribs ) 03:08, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Is there anything I can do to help? Mirror  Freak  13:44, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Info box image
Might it be better to have an image of a simple pizza with just the core ingredients? The one used as well as showing the pizza served with basil is made with olives in addition to the peperoni mentioned.SovalValtos (talk) 19:41, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that's reasonable. I put up an image of a more conventional pizza. Avibavi (talk) 20:33, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Etymology and History
The sections are muddled, with repetition and inclusion in History, of Etymology SovalValtos (talk) 12:14, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I removed the comment on etymology in the “history” section. I can't access or interpret the Greek source text, but the citation involves the same “Lexicon of New Greek” text cited in the “etymology” section, and from an adjacent page in the text. Both comments (concerning the Ancient Greek words “πηκτός” and “πικτή”) draw connections to the modern Greek word “pita”, leading me to believe that they may be variations of a common linguistic root word (presumably something like “πκτ”), or that the two words are linguistically unrelated and the apparently deviating positions actually concern the origin of the word “pita”. In which case, both comments attribute the origin of the word "pizza" to the more recent term “pita” anyway. If someone disagrees, or can more accurately present and differentiate information from the source text, I suggest you add that information to the “etymology” section. Avibavi (talk) 21:35, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

lycopene
i think the mention of lycopene with possible anti-cancer effects should be removed. i don't understand how an anti-oxidant can prevent cancers unless indirectly through the prevention of cholesterol oxidation. i believe the quote is mistaken for oxygen free radical species, usually it requires very large nucleoside analogue or highly reactive species to interfere with DNA transcription. can someone explain or reference a reliable source in terms of this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.1.229.15 (talk • contribs) 20:21, 3 March 2009
 * I added a comment on lycopene's anti-carcinogenic and anti-atherogenic effects, since it seems to be a recurrent topic in nutrition literature. Studies don't necessarily need to identify the particular mechanism underlying the effect to demonstrate a correlation, though I'm sure plenty of researchers have suggested likely mechanisms. Its a well-documented phenomenon. Avibavi (talk) 23:56, 5 October 2014 (UTC)