Talk:Player versus player

pvp as a negative
this was totally wrong so I changed it to reflect what the actual situation was. not all players but newer/casual players and developers looking to draw in larger crowds, when Pvp/pking stopped being the norm alot of MMORPG players just stopped playing them because PvE is just plain boring. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.20.80.248 (talk) 20:20, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Added a City of Heroes / City of Villains section
As the title sais, I have tried to add in a little bit of information on how the pvp works in the city of heroes and city of villains games.Please check it for grammer as english is not my native language. -Yoeri

Huge Changes
I deleted and edited many of the examples on that section of the article, shortening the section and improving the quality of writing within the section. I also cleaned up the rest of the article, removing bias and poor writing where I could. I deleted the PvM/PvE section of the article, as it did not really belong. There is a lot of bias in this article now, and it should stay clean of it. The use of examples of MMORPGs and other games should be specifically to shine further light on PvP. Also, someone with more know than I should write a section describing, at least briefly, PVP in non-MMORPGs. -Donathin

Merged player killer article
I merged the narrow player killer article with this one. Here's the original player killer text:

A player killer, or PK / PKer for short, is a player in an online computer role-playing game (such as a MUD or MMORPG) who kills other player characters. The term is also used to refer to a player-kill and the act of player-killing.

Player killing is often motivated by the inherent difficulty or excitement in hunting 'live' prey (as opposed to non-player mobs), the in-game rewards gained, or the satisfaction felt from causing another player grief. Players have mixed feelings over player killers. In some instances, player killing is accepted as an enjoyable part of the game. In some games player versus player combat is actively encouraged, and there are even games devoted entirely to PK.

PKers are not always desirable though. In this case, player killing is considered a form of griefing. Many games respond to this by restricting or eliminating player versus player combat. There is no "perfect" solution to this issue; PK flag systems are one approach, where users who wish to take part in player-killing may both be attacked and attack other such players. It is also common to restrict player killing to other players of similar level. Disallowing PK entirely is opposed by many who feel it reduces the internal consistency of a game's world (for example, "if mobs can be killed, why can't players?").

Complaints over PKers in the MMORPG Ultima Online probably influenced the developers of EverQuest to disallow nonconsensual player versus player combat by default. Other games with player killers include Diablo and Diablo II.

Player killers who kill their own allies and teammates are often referred to as team killers.

Players who hunt PKs and defend innocent players are sometimes referred to as player-killer killers (PKKs), or anti PKs.

PvE/PvM
What's the reasoning behind having PvM/PvE redirect here? As the article says, PvE is the "antithesis" of PvP, so I don't think it makes much sense. Can we move it? --RayaruB 18:35, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

no. Zzzzz 21:32, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

"Gay"
Someone needs to rephrase that whole part there, or it should go. It sonds very stilted and bizarre. --24.107.17.100 22:03, 28 January 2006 (UTC) yes queer

Obsolete Link
This link: leads to a site that has not updated since 2004, and contains almost entirely broken/disfunctional links. Just a passerby noting that it's pretty much dead.
 * Player Vs Player Screenshots & Stories Site

Guild Wars
I added a Guild Wars article outline its pvp system along with the other outlines from ther games.--68.192.188.142 23:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

You didn't do it right. The other Guild Wars games aren't cheaper, nor do they simply add more PvP; they also add PvE. 68.11.254.152 05:19, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Shadowbane
I made a Wiki account just to let you know that this article needs to note shadowbane as the premier pvp game on the face of the earth.

Very Biased/Limited Article
This whole PvP article honestly made me laugh. It is so funny to hear anyone claim that the term "Player vs. Player" is limited to, created by, or even mainly applying to, MMORPGs. I am a hardcore gamer that has played many MMORPGs, however, the term "PvP" was common long before the first MMORPG. Please try doing some honest research before posting your opinions, rather than just saying what the terms means to you.

Which game was the first to have a Player vs. Player setting? PvP dates back all the way to Atari, from what I can recall.

-People have being building competitive Roleplaying games for a long time, games like Paranoia (1984) have encouraged PvP for a long time. I cannot say where the term first emerged, but I have tried to add a section on tabletop roleplay section to match the LARP one. Raisedonadiet (talk) 18:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

This article slights all first-person shooters, and other games, that have a much larger PvP focus than MMORPGs. Even the some of the oldest first-person shooters had two settings: single-player (or PvE) and multi-player (also called, PvP).

Player-killing is also not an MMORPG only term. Didn't any of you WoW addicts play Starcraft years ago? That's a real time strategy game, not a MMORPG. PKing was a common problem in Starcraft. Players would drop their alliance, and kill the players they were supposed to be helping. Starcraft also had a PvP system, and ladder system. Again, let's do a little research, find a few outside links, and write something educated, rather than sounding like my Neopets friends that seem to think they invented the word "n00b".

--- Note to author: Your own information seems to be fairly un-researched. The term "player-killer" dates back to text-based MUDs and browser-based games like Hunt the Wumpus, which are far older text-based MMORPGs than present day graphical-based ones, or PvP games like Starcraft. ---Donathin


 * Poor research aside, his point stands. PvP didn't start with the MMO movement.  It didn't even start with MUDs.  It's been around since the first two player game.

--- His point does not stand. The concept of PvP has evolved from the days of Atari. Of course everyone knows that PvP was available back then because every console had 2 controllers. PvP today is a much more rich and sophisticated concept - it applies to player killing in a role playing universe. FPSes don't have much role playing and hence are not part of this concept. Its easy to kill players in FPSes. It's much harder to do so consistently in mmorpgs.

-- This is nonsense. PvP is not a synonim for multiplayer. It originated with MUDs and continued with MMOs which are basicly graphical MUDs with a more useable interface. To use the term in a game where the only goal is to fight someone else is meaningless, that's why the term only appeared when a game had both types of gameplay, to describe the activity, the players doing it, the zones and rules for it, etc... I've never seen someone talk about PvP in Starcraft or Counterstrike, because the only thing to do in those games in a multiplayer game is fight the other guy. Also the first MUDs are quite a bit older then multiplayer FPSs and RTSs.--Helixdq 00:15, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You might a well say that tennis or pool are PvP, as that it has existed since multiplayer computer games. The term only has need in rpg's and the like where emotional investment in character is high. Raisedonadiet (talk)


 * Even old pong machines had a player vs player and player vs machine switch. I had an old motorized one that used a light moved on a track by gears to play. The machine mode though always cheated since it never missed. PaleAqua 03:40, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Lacks a historical perspect and is too inclusive
I think the article needs to be broken down into game genres, FPS, MUD's, RPG's and MMORPG's, etc. and looked at in the context of how PvP started in each genre and refine a single definition to each.

From an MMORPG point of view, I would not call Guild Wars, World of Warcraft or Dark Age of Camelot as PvP games from a straight definition of the term. Games like Ultima Online and Asheron's Call defined what PvP should refer to when it comes to the MMORPG genre. i.e. anything team based (teams determined by the games developer) defeats the entire purpose of an MMORPG and falls more in line with an RPG that just 'happens' to be on-line. Interpersonal relationships and resulting actions (both good and bad) form probabily more then 50% of what defines PvP in the MMORPG genre in my opinion.

-- I do not think you are entirely correct. Ultima Online and Asherons were popular formats but now are obsolete mmorpgs. PvP isn't just about griefing anymore. Today it has evolved into a much richer environment of real tiem chess against human opponents. The new shards in Ultima could offer the same richness but not in their original format. Team pvp nowadays is like a modern sports tournament and deserves to be mentioned as such in a PvP article.

-- I get really discouraged when people refer to 'obsolete' game PvP implementions being solely about griefing. Yes, griefing can and did happen. But once you joined a decent guild and earned your reputation and following, it was much more enjoyable then the premade team PvP that goes on in todays MMORPG's. You call it richer, and I would say its extremely dumbed down.. I mean really dumbed down. Comparing it to chess is something I find laughable. You end up fighting who the developers tell you to fight, what you have to fight over and who you have to fight with and what the rewards will be.. it seems extremely spoon fed if you ask me. I just want a developer to have the guts to put community resposibilty back in the hands of players and then problems like gold farming, power leveling and such will pretty much go away.. it seems kinda childish to put all that responsibility on the game developers. The entire origin of MMORPG's centered around a virtual world where the players would have an impact.. sadly those days seem to be gone due to the immaturity of this instant gratification based generation of players. -- [unknown]


 * Breaking it down might be a good idea, although you probably only need two catagories: RPG and everything else. In an RPG, "going online" is assumed to be co-op mode unless you specify "PvP", which is players fighting each other and is the exception.  Even MMORPGs that advertise themselves as a PvP game (such as Lineage II) still have a great deal of PvE content and that's still what most players spend most of their time doing.  The point is that "PvP" as a label really only exists in the RPG world and points out an exception case for that genre.  You could apply the "PvP" to anything from Pong to Quake to basketball but I'd challenge you to go find a source that does.  In those games, PvP is implied when more than 1 player is involved and does not need to be specified. --TheCynic (talk) 02:18, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Team-killing Redirect
'Team-killing' redirects to this page. Without getting into the debate above about who invented what term and so on, 'team-killing' is heard almost entirely in FPS games, in which the term PvP is almost never used. Team-killing is distinct from PvP, being defined more like: 'the deliberate or accidental killing of an ally'. I don't feel that this article describes TKing at all, and I don't think that TKing belongs in an article about PvP, so I'm removing the redirect and putting in a stub. PvP is used to distinguish from PvE etc in MMO context. In FPS, the terminology used includes deathmatch, team deathmatch, co-op, etc. The concepts are related but not overlapping. 121.45.48.125 (talk) 10:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with that decision. "PvP" may technically stand for "players vs players" but its practical usage is to describe combat between player-characters in an RPG environment. "Team killing" refers to the particularly rude or careless killing of your own teammates in a team vs team game and almost always refers to an FPS. You could have "team killing" in a team-based PvP MMORPG but I can't think of a single example. Games like WOW and DAOC are team-based PvP but team-killing in the FPS sense isn't possible in those games. Games like UO don't have official teams, so team-killing wouldn't apply there either. --TheCynic (talk) 16:34, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced
There is only one properly sourced paragraph in this article. Does anyone object if I delete the rest? If so, please provide reliable sources for it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:21, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * On August 4, 2005, the Chinese government announced a ban on all "violent" MMORPG play for minors (under 18). Chinese officials defined "violent" as any game that involves player vs. player combat.  This new policy is part of a crackdown on pornographic, violent, gambling and superstitious content on the internet and mobile phone networks in an effort to create a so-called "healthy online environment".China bans MMORPG play for minors
 * It would be more productive to try to find sources for the rest of the info, and only delete what you can't find any for. There is a lot of contentious stuff in there, though, so WP:Be bold in deleting where need be. Haipa Doragon • (contributions) 01:10, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * This isn't a topic with which I'm familiar (I've played a few of these games, that's about it). I have no idea where we would find reliable sources talking about it. It appears to me that none were consulted in the writing of this article, and that it's all taken from the personal experience of editors. Ideally, editors start with sources rather than try and find sources for what they've already written. As we all know, unsourced material may be removed at any time. OTOH, unsourced material that isn't deleted rarely gets sourced since there is little impetus for editors to go out and find them. I found this article because it's had a undefined tag on it since April 2007. Only a couple of articles have had POV disputes for that long. Clearly, this article has problems and no editors are spending time fixing them. At some point it's better to start from scratch. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 19:48, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the article as it stands is a really wonky: It's defined as "competitive interaction.. between two or more live participants" which really ought to make the article's scope "any multiplayer game that is not Cooperative gameplay." But the article only pays minimal attention to anything that isn't an MMORPG. It's claimed as having origins in 1988 MUDs, but really it should go as far back as Spacewar! I think a complete rewrite is needed to get the article back on track, and if per-genre considerations are desired (for example, the current article is really "PvP in MMORPGs"), those can come later. Nifboy (talk) 00:05, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Whatever it requires, please fix it. Be bold. Isn't that the PvP way? ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 10:58, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I gank lowbie trash and corpse camp them till they QQ and shit in thier pants. So I was wondering if I can add some of my screenshots as valuable documentary 'data' on the subject. Zul poooons ! ~ 195.229.241.171 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment was added at 10:47, 20 October 2008 (UTC).
 * No, my friend, I hardly think that a article requiring neutrality and rewrites is an ideal forum for such data. Raisedonadiet (talk) 22:53, 20 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok for the sake of 'neutrality' how about I gank the shit out of lowbies and then let some nub kill me, I'll send screenshots of both. After that maybe I'll go back and corspe camp the faygot again. Zul poooons !!! 195.229.241.171 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 08:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC).

Marketing
I'm sorry to point out the obvious, but the "Darkfall Online" section is clearly irrelevant and means of propaganda. I'm quite sure Wikipedia does not accept this kind of thing. It should be deleted. 201.91.60.209 (talk) 18:43, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

POV tag
From reading through the talk page the main concerns seem to be that the article in written from the POV of someone familiar with a MMPORG and is neglecting the use of the terminology "player vs. player" in other types of multiplayer games. Is there any other POV concerns I am missing? Also can someone list in bullet points the basic treatment(s) of the concept that the article is missing from these other sorts of games?-- Birgitte SB  04:22, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Since no-one has responded to explain what continued bias problem exists here; I am going to assume the concerns were taken care of in the past year and remove the tag.-- Birgitte SB  15:16, 25 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The serious issues with this article go beyond simple NPOV - there's almost a total lack of sources. Unless someone fixes it shortly I'm going to stub it down to what is supported by the two sources currently in the article.   Will Beback    talk   

Cleanup
Reading through the article, it looks like there's a lot of WP:OR and WP:UNDUE issues. Some time this week I'm gonna go through line by line and delete some of the worst offenses, I think.  Azure Fury  (talk | contribs) 19:31, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Rename - "PvP" or "Player versus player"?
As far as I am concerned, wikipedia names articles based on the most commonly used formal title. I am of the belief that "PvP" is referred to considerably more than it's longer title and the article name should be changed accordingly. I will leave it to someone else to tag the page as having a rename discussion.

Obviously this will inflict on the webcomic "PvP" article, but that could always be renamed "PvP_(webcomic)" accordingly. Let me know your thoughts, thanks. JoshuaMiller0 (talk) 11:13, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Technically
Technically, if PvP is where player fights another player, then Space Wars would be the first PvP game. Thanks, Marasama (talk) 00:19, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
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 * Minecraft-PvP.png

Phone
WWE Yegz 2600:1700:7B80:9230:4170:429A:AFD3:480A (talk) 00:29, 3 June 2022 (UTC)