Talk:Portrait of Monsieur Bertin

Comment
I don't know how much will be added in terms of content here, but I think to avoid the white space, either Gertrude Stein or the engraving of Bertin could go to the gallery, and something removed from there. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:01, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I did in the whitespace and filled in the gallery...Modernist (talk) 20:15, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Gallery

 * I'm not seeing some of these, and especially not the last. I think a gallery really needs to display more obvious connections, and I think it would be all too easy for us to have forty pics of blokes sitting in chairs. Kafka Liz (talk) 13:25, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Inspiration for the pose
I've placed the version of the story given by Robert Rosenblum in a footnote, as all other sources I've been able to check make reference only to Amaury-Duval's account and sometimes also Delaborde's, both of which say Ingres solved the problem of the pose after observing Bertin. The only reference to Rosenblum's version I've found is by Arikha (1986; p.3), who reports the story Amaury-Duval says was told to him by Bertin, and adds in a footnote: "Robert Rosenblum gives a different version. 'One day at an outdoor café, he suddenly observed a striking pose that his seated friend and student, Amaury-Duval, had taken, and immediately decided on this for the portrait,' Rosenblum, 1967, p. 134. Professor Rosenblum does not give his source, but whatever it may be, it contradicts the description given by Amaury-Duval himself." Ewulp (talk) 02:06, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes. The article is now reading "Ingres' early biographers provide differing anecdotes", which is safest. Ceoil (talk) 11:00, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Then there's this
Marcel Broodthaers Mademoiselle Rivière and Monsieur Bertin, 1975 at the Tate...Modernist (talk) 13:09, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
 * oooh, nice find! Will incorporate and tks. Ceoil (talk) 18:28, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Also mentioned in Marcel Broodthaers: Strategy and Dialogue. Ceoil (talk) 11:28, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Sir Gerald Kelly did several portraits of Ralph Vaughn Williams that follow the Bertin portrait closely (one example). I can't find a RS that says he was influenced, but here's one that notes the resemblance. Ewulp (talk) 05:49, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Should be mentioned but might be difficult to keep an image. We are where we are; txs. Ceoil (talk) 02:28, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * As the Picasso is pd, I think we might get away with a Gerald Kelly FU. Looking for more context, will add tonight. One Stein might be enough, if we have to choose... Ceoil (talk) 13:18, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Result looks very good! Ewulp (talk) 02:56, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Picasso
The Gertrude Stein is within copyright, so we might either have to loose it or come up with a rational. I'm out of practise with that, and would hate to loose it, if any volunteers. Thanks. Ceoil (talk) 11:21, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * At the moment they both appear to be PD, the Picasso is pd in the US...Modernist (talk) 11:37, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I think maybe one portrait of Stein rather than two, in any case? Kafka Liz (talk) 13:26, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * We need an article on Picasso's Portrait of Gertrude Stein. The genisis and friendship is a little more than fascinating. Ceoil (talk) 03:44, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Lede
I tried to adjust the lede to better capture the state of Ingres' career c. 1830. He was in demand for his portraits, but I think it's misleading to ascribe his success and renown to portraits rather than history painting. In Portraits by Ingres: Image of an Epoch Shelton writes: "Few artists undergo the kind of dramatic career transformation that Ingres experienced at the end of 1824. Within the span of a few short weeks in November, he went from being one of the most maligned artists of his generation to one of the most celebrated. The catalyst for this sudden reversal of fortune was the appearance at the Salon of The Vow of Louis XIII ... At the close of the Salon Ingres received the officer's cross of the Legion of Honor from the hands of King Charles X himself; six months later he captured the ultimate prize—a seat in the all-powerful Académie des Beaux-Arts." (p. 273) A "flood of prestigious commissions ... suddenly came his way" including The Martyrdom of Saint Symphorian, "a history painting for the Maison du Roi", and frescoes for the church of Saint-Sulpice, (p. 275); a little later came The Apotheosis of Homer. So for the while at least he was enjoying a great success as a history painter. Christopher Riopelle writes: "The enormous success of the Vow marked Ingres's triumphant return to his homeland and his assumption of the leadership of the classical school ... He had painted what his contemporaries immediately recognized as his first masterpiece". (p. 246) Ewulp (talk) 09:05, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes. The edits are very much improvements; but beg; should we go into romantic vs necoclassism in the lead. Ceoil (talk) 01:12, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
 * It's probably not needed in the lede. The line or two of explanation in the Background section is useful but I wouldn't think the idea needs to be developed very much in this article. Ewulp (talk) 02:56, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thats sounds about right. Ceoil (talk) 02:56, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

All images in this article should use upright, not px, per MOS:IMGSIZE. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:24, 10 June 2016 (UTC)