Talk:Safehold

Start
I think it's time to start an article here at this name, since there are now three published books, and a fourth book is contracted and has an expected shipping date. Several of the entries in the series have been on the NYT bestseller list. 76.66.192.35 (talk) 11:59, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Reception
Someone should really warn prospective readers how painfully long-winded the later books get. Perhaps by filling out the "Reception" section with some positive and negative reviews. 64.198.214.96 (talk) 05:23, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * That's just your opinion. We don't put comments such as that in there unless it's mentioned in a review. If you can find reviews which state that, feel free to post the information here and we'll be happy to add it. IMO, I like the exposition in the books. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WikiProject Japan ! 07:40, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Find a review, and post it. I agree with you, BTW. Same is true for the Honor Harrington series. Debresser (talk) 09:35, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, I find they're getting better... :-) More in-depth characters, etc... --Crusio (talk) 10:07, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * That is also true. But he does drag out things in the later books, I think. The main thing is: anything you find in a review, you can write here. Debresser (talk) 00:49, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Relation to prior works
Should there be some mention that the Safehold novels are partly a reworking of themes Weber first published in his "Ashes of Empire / Dahak" series. Specifically, in "Heirs of Empire", he has a planetwide primitive human culture descended from a once mighty human spacefaring nation. They're protected from "Demons" by a network of orbital defenses and have a semaphore network. And they're located in a nation named "Cherist" (as opposed to "Charis"). Both the cultures of the Safeholdians and those of the Fourth & Fifth Empires are based around defensive strategies to protect them from overwhelmingly genocidal alien lifeforms. Of course, it's also clear that the Legacy of the Aldenata series owes a debt to Ashes of Empire, since the genocidal aliens in both series are crested centaurs who rely almost entirely on their computers, but that's irrelevant. Unfortunately, I don't know if there's been any scholarly or published mention of the relationship between Safehold and AoE and thus I'm hesitant to write anything on the front page. Also, I'd be unsure how much detail to go into or how to arrange it.76.20.179.103 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:01, 12 September 2012 (UTC)


 * If there would be some sourced information available that would be very interesting for this article. Debresser (talk) 20:07, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

New "Earth's Final War" and "Crisis of the 'Archangels'" sections
There is incorrect information in these sections. It's been a while since I read the first book (basically, since it first came out), so my memory is not 100%, but I don't remember the following:
 * "Safehold's 8 million colonists agreed to have their memories erased" - The way I remember it is that Langhorne and his group awakened them and erased their memories without permission or agreement of any kind. I believe this is reiterated by Nimue and Owl in later volumes.
 * "Unknown to Shan-Wei and her estranged husband, Admiral Pei Kau-yung, the colony's military commander, Langhorne had installed a space platform in Safehold's orbit" - I thought the platform was common knowledge among the command staff. This one I'm a little more fuzzy about.
 * In general, there seems to be a lot more detailed information than I remember being in any of the books. Since there are so many books, it may be useful (even though it's not required) to have references indicating from which book different pieces of information are from, and the pages the information is on. This series is going to be going for at least 3-4 more books, so it will be helpful to know where the general information in these two sections is from. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 02:14, 16 September 2015 (UTC)


 * My spate of (admittedly clumsy) changes here were motivated by my current re-read, so I have a fresher memory. To review:
 * The colonists agreed to have all memory of advanced tech removed. Langhorne and Bédard basically said "well, if they agreed to have their memories erased, might as well put some fake memories in there where we happen to be demigods. What's the worst that could happen?"
 * Yeah, I can definitely confirm that Shan-Wei had no idea the platform was there. She got into an argument with Langhorne and after he threatened to attaint her for treason she went back to Alexandria to confer with her people. She had no idea that this allowed Langhorne to easily kill them all with the hidden platform, which he had not even told Kau-yung about. Kau-yung had a nasty public relationship with Shan-wei and that's why he'd been kept on as chief military officer, yet Langhorne still didn't trust him. Rightly so, as the "falling out" between husband and wife had all been a ruse. Buuut this detail may not be of great importance.
 * I'm a little unsure how to properly reference chapters or pages, so you might try putting some of that code in there and I'll follow your example. Thanks. SanSingularity (talk) 02:21, 16 September 2015 (UTC)


 * See Help:Referencing for beginners for assistance in properly referencing things. I've reduced the plot summaries here, too, though the summaries for the most recent two books need to be expanded (they were pretty pathetic to begin with). ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 03:39, 16 September 2015 (UTC)


 * My original plan was to contribute revisions and expansions to each of the book summaries as I re-read the series. I'll focus on this page, and I'll do my best to be concise. Also, should we be doing these summaries in past or present tense? SanSingularity (talk) 16:16, 16 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Good question. See WP:FICTENSE. Debresser (talk) 17:50, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Small Edit to HFQ Section
Character dialogue (Nynian, Cayleb, and Merlin if memory serves) and Thirsk's internal narrative after the incident seem to make clear that Thirsk's aide was not, in fact, a Charisian spy, nor involved in the plot to exfiltrate the family, but improvised his "confession" and the subsequent shootout on the spot to divert suspicion from Thirsk. This is supported (in the text and logically) from the gorgeous shot right in the ten-ring on the inquisitor compared to merely wounding everyone else. Edited description of that event to reflect this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.179.137.211 (talk • contribs) 19:22, 13 January 2016‎ (UTC)
 * That's how I read it, too. Thanks for doing that. ··· 日本穣 ·  投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 19:53, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Proposed re-write for active voice and concision. 198.179.137.211 may approve or reject.
 * "Grand Inquisitor Clyntahn blames Thirsk for losing the prisoners and plans to have him killed as soon as Thirsk’s naval leadership is no longer needed. The Inquisition uncovers a plan to smuggle his family to safety. One of the admiral’s aides diverts suspicion, slaying several Inquisition agents and wounding Thirsk with a captured Charisian sidearm. Knowing he may reveal the truth under torture, he then kills himself. Even so, the family are compelled to go to Zion as hostages in all but name. Merlin and Nimue rescue them from a Navy of God ship, destroying it and all evidence of their survival. Later, Merlin visits a mournful and withdrawn Thirsk in secret." SanSingularity (talk) 20:40, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * That looks good to me. ··· 日本穣 ·  投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 23:49, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Nahrmahn...
As to edit, it is incorrect. Nahrmahn is introduced in the series as Prince of Emerald. After the incorporation of Emerald into the Empire of Charis, Nahrmahn becomes chief spymaster for the Empire. Coris is Corisande’s spymaster prior to Hector’s death. Nahrmahn isn’t Corisandian so he can’t have been Corisande’s spymaster prior to his death. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:50, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Then it should be Emeraldan, but not Charisan, because at the moment that the sentence refers to, which is the moment of Nahrmahn's resurrection, he was not affiliated with Charis. Debresser (talk) 15:40, 7 May 2018 (UTC)


 * For reference - see Nahrman's entries in the character sections at the back of the books. First three books list Nahrmahn as "ruler of Emerald". Fourth book entry is "ruler of the Princedom of Emerald; Caleb and Chareyan Ahrmakk's Imperial Councilor for Intelligence" (A Mighty Fortress p. 693). Also see A Mighty Fortress p. 692 for "Ahzgood, Phylyp: Earl of Coris; previously spymaster for Prince Hektor of Corisande; currently legal guardian for Princess Irys Daykyn and Prince Daivyn Daykyn". As for what he was at his resurrection, A Mighty Fortress is prior to his becoming a Virtual Personality. He's definitely the Empire of Charis' spymaster prior to his death. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:46, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Can't argue with the sources. I must be mistaken then. Debresser (talk) 16:00, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * on the plus side, this is now on my watchlist..probably should put the Honorverse on also...Ealdgyth - Talk 16:16, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, . Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 02:54, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Request regarding Plot section
Can you please clarify what the 1st two entries are. Are they short stories, novels, or what? Thank you. BaronVonSchnowzer (talk) 03:15, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Earth is Dead
 * War Against the Fallen


 * I believe those are both aspects of “off armageddon reef”. The phrases can be found in an Internet search. I think you could have done that . —¿philoserf? (talk) 04:24, 15 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Thank you . I did do such a search and only found references to the phrases but the fact that all other sub-headings are titles of novels made me wonder if there were stories or novelettes with these titles.


 * I haven’t reviewed the article history, but, likely the current shape of the firs few sections are the result of incremental edits. I have a note to come back and reshape them into something more consistent with the whole. Not sure when I will take the time. Any editor can take it on. —¿philoserf? (talk) 13:42, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I've added section headers to clarify that it's background info—basically, the things that happen before the ostensible timeframe of Off Armageddon Reef. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 18:02, 15 November 2021 (UTC)