Talk:Sally Ride/Archive 2

First Known LGBTQ+ Astronaut
I see around the time of her death there was discussion on the talk page about her being the first known LGBTQ+ astronaut, with some questioning the veracity of this. Now that we're a few years removed and have confirmation from Tam O'Shaughnessy and biographies of Sally Ride published posthumously, this is no longer a question for debate and is verified. Her existence as the first known LGBTQ+ astronaut is as important a first as being the first American woman in space, and I want to open the discussion here about adding it to the second sentence. If we are going to list one of her firsts (being the first American woman in space), her other simultaneous first should be mentioned right alongside it. Sevey13 (talk) 17:52, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Seeing no objections or discussion after almost a month, I made the change. Sevey13 (talk) 22:52, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't see how this important at all, especially for the intro. Her homosexuality wasn't known when she went into space or for many years to come. Furthermore, the phrasing "fist known LGBTQ+ astronaut" suggests that there were "unknown" ones. Given the pretty limited number of astronauts, that is highly unlikely and speculative. Finally, there is no need to put Sally Ride's astronautical achievements under the whole acronym banner. Str1977 (talk) 06:46, 17 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Hi there Str1977. I see you went ahead and reverted the edit without bring it to the talk page first. If you disagree with the edit that is so fresh and that has been brought up recently in Talk, I appreciate the courtesy of at least giving a minor window before making your change. I left a whole month for comments and saw none so made the edit. At least a few hours would be kind before making your revert.


 * That out of the way, I would point a few things out I disagree with in your argument.


 * - It does not matter whether her sexuality was known publicly at the time, it was certainly known to her. She was same-sex attracted when she went to space. That is factual. In the opening paragraph, it mentions she was the first woman and the youngest person. What specific justification do you offer that this is any less important? I'd point out the fact that her sexuality plays a huge role, as portrayed in the Sherr Lynn biography, as closed to an "authorized biography" as you're going to get on her, and recent scholarship also acknowledges this "first" alongside the others (see the sources in the next point).


 * - In addition, the phrasing "first known LGBTQ+ astronaut" is accurate. You say it is speculative. What specifically is speculative about it? As queer identities were downright illegal even when Sally Ride went to space, they were often hidden, so to say absolutely that all astronauts who preceded her were straight is also speculative. This wording is also consistent with modern scholarship and articles about her, I didn't make it up. See: https://www.womenshistory.org/education-resources/biographies/sally-ride, https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/recommended-the-real-sally-ride-astronaut-science-champion-and-lesbian, https://www.businessinsider.com/sally-ride-first-gay-astronaut-nasa-2015-10/ With this in mind, what wording would you offer as an alternative that is factual, concise, and comprehensive?


 * - I admit, I don't understand your last statement. What do you mean by "there is no need to put Sally Ride's astronautical achievements under the whole acronym banner."?


 * Please bring some specific sources to the discussion. I'd be curious how you'd like this discussion to go. Are you hoping to bring in additional voices to weigh in on this? If so, we can get in touch with a moderator and get that started. Sevey13 (talk) 06:23, 20 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Your first line is obviously false: "I see you went ahead and reverted the edit without bring it to the talk page first."
 * As you can see above - and as you know as you posted here - I did bring it to the talk page first. I also did not "revert" anything but I edited in line with what I consider to be a better wording. Your initial change was based on nothing but your view and nobody responding - a lack of response is no surprise on this not-so-prominent article.
 * NB. You had no issue with immediately reverting my changes. Should I know revert your revert again, based on your example?
 * As for the three issues here:
 * Overall importance: Sally Ride's sexuality did not play a "huge role" during her life time, let alone when she made her trip into space. At the time, she was celebrated as the first US woman in space - he was not celebrated as the first lesbian in space. That's a retrospective label linked to the revelation that she was lesbian. - IF it should be included in the intro it should done like (and forgive any rough edges of the wording) "Then and then Sally Ride was revealed to be a lesbian. As such she became known as the first LGBT* astronaut. (NB. Has that biography been authorized by Mrs Ride herself, during her lifetime? It nevertheless has to be treated like any other sources. WP cannot simply parrot it.)
 * First known LGBT* austronaut implies that there are unknown "LGBT astronauts" - that is speculation at best. We should shirk this concern by writing "became known as the first LGBT* astronaut".
 * Finally - but least importantly - I don't see the need to but Sally Ride under an evergrowing, cumbersome acronym. It used to be LGB, then LGBT, now you wrote LGBTQ+. Sally Ride was a lesbian, she was - to my and your knowledge - neither B, nor T nor Q. If we really need that acronym, restrict to the more the substantive LGBT.
 * Finally, this is not about "bringing in some specific sources" but a matter of WP principles like "no undue weight" and NPOV and, in case of the second issues, verifiability. Str1977 (talk) 11:54, 20 February 2021 (UTC)


 * I want to work towards a solution here, and since the internet is such an impersonal medium do me a favor and read this imagining me sitting with you in a bar or something with each of our preferred drinks in hand, chatting cordially. It's what I'm doing when I read yours.


 * From what I'm seeing in your comment, there are two separate but important, questions you're asking, the first being is "Sally Ride was the first known LGBQT+ astronaut" the right way to word it, and the second is does this statement belong in the second sentence. Do I have it right? If not please forgive me, because that's the assumption I'm going under in my response.


 * Your first point, the overall importance, seems to get at that second question, "does this belong in the second sentence?" I say yes, and modern scholarship/journalism on Ride seems to agree. The crux of the argument you're making, if I understand it correctly, is that because Sally Ride was not announced at the time as the first gay/lesbian/bi/[insert LGBTQ+ identity word here] astronaut when she first flew, that it does not rise to the level of importance of being in the opening. I'm curious what evidence would you need to see to feel that her sexuality played a "huge role" in her life, as you put it?


 * Do you have criteria that you'd need to see to be satisfied? When she was in graduate school she was in a relationship with Molly Tyson, many years before she became an astronaut. She was in a relationship with Tam O'Shaughnessy for 27 years, a pretty significant length of time. She also dated men, even married one for a few years in a private ceremony before getting quietly divorced a few years later. All this is documented in the sources I shared last time. The romantic relationships she had with the people around her, both men and women would seem quite significant to her. The timeline clearly shows she was attracted to women during her NASA years. Just because it wasn't known publicly at the time, it was known to her. It doesn't matter that she wasn't called the "first lesbian in space" at the time or something like that. It was still part of her, a part she clearly had to keep undisclosed during her NASA years. If she had come out, scholars/journalists who have covered her legacy agree she would almost assuredly have been fired and her name wouldn't be the one in the history books. (See: Sherr Lynn's biography, https://medium.com/the-vintage-space/gay-astronauts-a-final-frontier-9892d0987fa0, https://www.businessinsider.com/sally-ride-first-gay-astronaut-nasa-2015-10, https://prospect.org/culture/books/astronaut-sally-ride-burden-first/, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z7PWRZHEnA, and while it doesn't talk about NASA this article hits on concerns about post-career difficulty if she came out https://www.npr.org/2014/06/17/322800422/sherr-s-book-reveals-details-of-astronaut-sally-ride-s-personal-life) I will be the first to acknowledge many modern sources point back to Sherr Lynn's biography, so easily accessible articles online will likely be reviews or discussions about her biography. This means if someone doesn't see that source as authoritative obviously the whole thing comes crumbling down. However, Lynn worked directly with Ride for decades, interviewed Ride, O'Shaugnessy, Tyson, the men Ride dated/married, and of course many others not involved or privy to her romantic interests. She gives an exhaustive bibliography and source list in her closeing pages. I'd point to the book's wide citation, coupled with Lynn's comprehensive research, as proof that it is the current authoritative work and worth leaning on, and Lynn asserts her sexuality played a "huge role."


 * The rest of your comments seem to address the question of correct wording. In terms of the wording "first known," I hear and understand the argument that it does imply speculation. Do you hear and understand my argument that to state definitively that she was the first LGBTQ+ astronaut is making an equally speculative claim? I ask because I want to make sure we're not talking past each other here. One need only read "The Astronaut Wives Club" to see how much many of the earlier astronauts saw their marriage to a woman as simply a box to check on the way to being an astronaut, and that book goes into great detail on the social pressures of the astronauts presenting the 'perfect American family' to counter the perceived Communist threat. Compellingly, if you do an internet search for "first known" or "earliest known," you'll see it is a term commonly used in fields of study where earlier examples may exist but just haven't been found (biology, etymology, ancient history, music studies, etc.). I'd make an assertion that LGBTQ+ history is a similar field, where the constant evolution of language, identity, and social perception make it difficult to make too many definitive claims. What is phrasing we can use that finds a middle ground, neither declaring definitely that she was the absolute first when that is an unknown while also keeping the focus on her and not the astronauts who preceded her?


 * Thank you for clarifying what you meant about the banner. To that point about what language to use, I actually agree with you. I think you'll find most people even within the LGBTQ+ community don't like that acronym, or LGBT, or GLBT or any of the various flavors of the alphabet soup as it's long and bothersome and has plenty of baggage, but they have a branding problem. Other terms have been floated out there like GSM or SAGA (I believe GSM is the most popular, but that's speculation ;) ), but none are nearly as well known as the alphabet soup, so that's out a bit of our hands haha. I personally would feel uncomfortable assigning Ride the "lesbian" label as you suggest, as it's not one she used herself. Her obituary simply said she had been living with Tam O'Shaughnessy for 27 years. She also dated men, even marrying one. Did she see these heteronormative relationships as genuine, or were they cover? Would that make her bisexual? Pansexual? That would be speculation indeed, and since she's dead we can't ask her definitively. That's why I trended instead towards the LGBTQ+, as it is an umbrella term. I've been searching around for Wikipedia's official position/style guide on this and haven't found something that definitively says "use THIS," so I'd be fine revising down to LGBT as opposed to LGBTQ+ or some other variation. I have asked for clarification from WikiProject LGBT studies. Hopefully someone from there will chime in here.


 * I'll wait to hear what you have to say before making another attempt at phrasing to see what common ground we can find. Sevey13 (talk) 07:31, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not certain that this is second-sentence stuff. It isn't a key driver of her notability; almost all her notability was established before this was a public fact, it seems to me.
 * The phrase "first known LGBTQ+ in space" is a problem, not because it indicates that there were unknown LGBTQ+ astronauts (it doesn't, it allows for it; astronauting began at a time when a large portion of the LGBTQ+ populace was closeted) but because it makes it sound like she was known LGBTQ+ when she was in space, which is not the case. I haven't read the biographies - did she even consider herself to be LGBTQ+ when she was in space? Her last trip was before the start of her long term relationship, and people's view of their own sexuality is malleable.
 * "LGBTQ+" is itself a problem here, because + gets so variably defined at times that it is hard to tell what it may include or exclude, and thus what other astronauts might qualify. LGBT should be sufficient in this case.
 * My suggestion: Dump it, and instead put something more detailed and nuanced as the penultimate sentence of the intro. "Having been married to astronaut Steven Hawley during her spaceflight years and in a private, long-term relationship with former Women's Tennis Association player Tam O'Shaughnessy in her years after, she is the earliest space traveler to have been recognized as LGBT." --Nat Gertler (talk) 13:30, 22 February 2021 (UTC)


 * I came here from WT:LGBT. After taking a look through the discussion and history, I do think I agree with that there is an unfortunate implication here: that she was known as LGBT in 1983. I don't think that is the most natural reading, nor the one that I had at first, but it is a reasonable one that I can see. I prefer Nat Gertler's proposed wording ("Having been married to astronaut Steven Hawley during her spaceflight years and in a private, long-term relationship with former Women's Tennis Association player Tam O'Shaughnessy in her years after, she is the earliest space traveler to have been recognized as LGBT."), not only because it avoids the implication, but also because it feels like more natural prose. Adding 'first' qualifiers, one after the other, is fine—but when there's a way to avoid it, and do so naturally, I think that's preferable.
 * As for LGBT vs. LGBTQ+, my understanding is that it is up to stylistic preference. I think the tides are turning and reliable sources now mostly use LGBTQ+, but we should probably mirror whatever language is used in RSs and scholarship in relation to Sally Ride herself. And I'd be happy to share my notes, but from what I see in a quick search from scholarship, it seems to be LGBT. But I did not look at things outside of academia, so ymmv—but also, it does not matter too much; just pick one and move on. Urve (talk) 20:36, 22 February 2021 (UTC) And I want to add, since I forgot- while her notability was not originally for being a lesbian astronaut, I think that her modern notability is rooted deeply in this fact, so I do feel it should be in the lead. Second sentence or not, probably not. Urve (talk) 20:43, 22 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Support Nat Gertler's suggested sentence and placement. Having it in the second sentence and next to "first American woman" was very misleading as to the order of events, as outlined above. LGBT is standard on Wikipedia over LGBTQ+. Crossroads -talk- 21:19, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Given that days have passed with no objections and a couple specific shows of support for my wording, I have added it to the intro. That does not mean that further comments and adjustments cannot be made. --Nat Gertler (talk) 14:50, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you all for helping keep this conversation going. I was pretty busy the past week and didn't have a chance to check. I like the suggested wording. Thanks again. Sevey13 (talk) 23:08, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Jsusky (talk) 19:59, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

"she is the earliest space traveler to have been recognized as LGBT"

Really? ALL four letters?? Perhaps I misunderstand - is that a term *she used*?

Given her date-of-birth, her personal policy may have been none-of- your-F#C#in'-business.

"LGBTQ+" (in the topic title) how does this sort of convolution add any value - except to state what is important to self-important observers? IS such a self-reflecting mirror useful?

Note that today's entries (2021jul01) on Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova do not address "precendence" (both "out" in 1981)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 March 2021
Change the *19 reference to include Allan McDonald https://www.sltrib.com/news/2021/03/10/utahn-allan-mcdonald-dies/  https://www.npr.org/2021/03/07/974534021/remembering-allan-mcdonald-he-refused-to-approve-challenger-launch-exposed-cover Allan McDonald should be included in the comments regarding the Space Challenger explosion as he was the scientist with Morton Thiokol who refused the sign off on the launch because of the O-rings. McDonald persistently cited three reasons for a delay: freezing overnight temperatures that could compromise the booster rocket joints; ice forming on the launchpad and spacecraft that could damage the orbiter heat tiles at launch; and a forecast of rough seas at the booster rocket recovery site. He just died and he needs to be included so that people can read the full information as it is important. 2600:1702:10B0:38A0:784D:2F72:7DA0:CB02 (talk) 19:59, 10 March 2021 (UTC) 2600:1702:10B0:38A0:784D:2F72:7DA0:CB02 (talk) 19:59, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * . I've changed the wording to say that Boisjoly wasn't the only person to voice concerns. I won't mention McDonald by name because the sources don't show a clear connection to Ride. ◢  Ganbaruby!   (Say hi!) 00:15, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

infobox ambiguity
In the infobox, in "​Partner(s) Tam O'Shaughnessy (1985–2012; her death)", change "her death" to "Ride's death". Otherwise it is not clear which one died, without checking the rest of the article. 67.160.203.180 (talk) 20:34, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Good catch. Change made. --Nat Gertler (talk) 22:15, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 21 August 2021
Please list Sally Rides life partner along with her spouse.

O'Shaughnessy was the romantic partner of NASA Astronaut Sally Ride from 1985 until Ride's death in 2012.[22]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tam_O%27Shaughnessy 2600:6C55:7B00:1144:2C69:7611:5524:77E3 (talk) 14:03, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting wait.svg Already done This is already covered in the article ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:32, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 October 2021
Sally Ride was 51 years old when she died from Pancreatic Cancer. 45.51.105.131 (talk) 23:03, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. -  FlightTime  ( open channel ) 23:05, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 February 2021 and 18 May 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Samarillion.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 08:35, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 January 2022
Can someone swap the last two paragraphs of the Life and Death section? They're not in chronological order and the article does not read well as a result. 209.52.88.62 (talk) 00:00, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ casualdejekyll  17:21, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Bear Ride marital info
I removed the sentences about Bear Ride's marital history. As she is a non-public figure, I don't think information about her marital history and the name of her current spouse should be included on Sally Ride's page. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 16:26, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

LGBT vs lesbian
i changed the wording from 'first astronaut known to be LGBT' to first astronaut known to be lesbian but was reverted. LGBT refers to a community that includes transgender people. Ride was apparently lesbian, gay, bisexual, but she was not trans, therefore i figured when referring to her as the first anything in space, it would be better to refer to her as lesbian because that refers to her individual identity. the other references to LGBT refer to community/community-awards/etc so those seem more correct and i left them alone. but it is odd phrasing to refer to her as the 'first astronaut known to be lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender' (which is what is being said when using that initialism). it also seems to me that using the initialism amounts to lesbian erasure but im not sure given that i am not part of the lesbian community. also if this discussion results in the word lesbian being restored, should the lead section read 'first astronaut known to be a lesbian', or 'first astronaut known to be lesbian'? .usarnamechoice (talk) 02:12, 12 September 2022 (UTC) edited 02:21, 12 September 2022 (UTC)


 * I think you misunderstand 'LGBT' as a term; it does not imply that a person holds all four identities. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:16, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
 * i believe that LGBT refers to a community. lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender each refers to a member of this community. .usarnamechoice (talk) 02:19, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Yep. Ride was the first known member of that community to be an astronaut. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:23, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
 * the current cites for the disputed text are 61 and 62. 61 is Business Insider Australia which mentions "lesbian" five times in the article, and "LGBT" zero times in the article. 62 is Scientific American, which uses "lesbian" once, and "LGBT" zero times. perhaps the text should conform to the citations. :^) .usarnamechoice (talk) 19:43, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I swapped in some better sources. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:23, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I'll add what I told someone else who I reverted recently when they changed "LGBT" to Lesbian: "Sally Ride never called herself a lesbian, and where possible we defer to how people self-identify. In Lynn Sherr's biography of Ride, done with cooperation of Ride's partner Tam, Tam explains: "We never publicly said, 'We're gay.' We didn't like labels of any kind, but especially the ones referring to sexuality: queer, lesbian, homosexual." In addition, Ride's only legal marriage was to a man. Naturally a woman being married to a man doesn't make her a straight or bisexual, there are plenty of same-gender attracted people who were stuck in heteronormative marriages. However, since Ride isn't alive anymore to explain whether she had romantic feelings for the man she married and the other men she dated, we opted for the more general and vague LGBTQ+ label. A lot of this was discussed and deliberated on the Sally Ride talk page. " In other words, it's not Lesbian erasure, it's being accurate to the best of our ability given the information we have on her. Would she call herself a lesbian today, in 2022? Maybe, maybe not, but since she is deceased we cannot know and therefore it is inaccurate to apply that specific label. This was discussed at length already on the talk page here, feel free to look back through the archives. Sevey13 (talk) 21:00, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
 * i did look through the archives before posting here, but only found the initial hubbub around this detail becoming known because of her obituary in Archive 1, and the discussion in Archive 2. in Archive 2, objected to the use of the cumbersome initialism on the same grounds that i used. you mention Sally Ride never called herself a lesbian, and where possible we defer to how people self-identify, but Ms Ride also never called herself "LGBT" either so i don't see how that argument fits. i hate to resort to a hypothetical, but what happens when the first transgendered individual goes to space? if Ms Ride is already occupying the "first LGBT" in space position, then is the transgendered individual relegated to second 'LGBT' in space? to me it makes sense to call her the 'first lesbian', and allow the transgendered individual in space to be called the 'first transgendered individual' in space when that day comes. .usarnamechoice (talk) 21:45, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
 * First off, I want to say that you're asking good questions. Writing about LGBTQ+ history can be a minefield (trust me, I do it a lot though not here on the wiki), and so being thoughtful and inquisitive, and being open to the complexities of language, is a perfect way to approach this.
 * I hear what you're saying, and on the surface it would make sense. Sally had an enduring romantic relationship with another woman, therefore it seems logical to call her a lesbian. That might work in casual conversation, but we're talking about an encyclopedic entry here which means we have to apply a standard of rigor to the statement. This is all made so much more complicated because she's dead and we can't just ask her "hey Sally, can we say you're a lesbian in your wiki article?"
 * When we apply that standard of rigor to the statement that Sally Ride was the first known lesbian in space, it falls apart quickly under that more serious scrutiny. Specifically, it doesn't account for the fact that she was legally married to and had romantic relationships with men which we have no record of her disavowing as "cover relationships." In fact, in that same biography her ex-husband says he believes her love for him was genuine at that time. If Sally did indeed feel love for him at that moment in her life, does this make Sally bisexual? Pansexual? If so, the lesbian label is incorrect. But also labeling her as bisexual is making a claim that we can't really prove.
 * As already mentioned, it also doesn't account for her specifically rejecting the label of "lesbian" during her life. You are correct that she rejected other labels, too, and an argument could be made that any label would run counter to her wishes. That's where we, as editors, need to strike a balance between respecting someone's self identity and our obligation to historical truth - whatever that may be. We know that Sally had an enduring romantic relationship with another woman whom she loved deeply. This puts her in the extremely broad category we today call LGBTQ+, which includes people who feel they don't fit into any of the various categories/labels that have been constructed to apply to different combinations of attractions and affections. Yes, we can get into a circuitous conversation about a label for people who reject labels, but that would be unproductive and at the end of the day given the structure of Wikipedia, we've got to pick something. Since "lesbian" doesn't accurately capture what we can know about her life, we opted for the broader LGBTQ+ category.
 * As to your question about what to do when the first known trans astronaut reaches space, while I can't speak for whomever will write that article, presumably they would be called the first transgender astronaut. (Incidentally the term "transgendered," which you used, is considered outdated and possibly offensive depending on the person. I know language can concerning LGBTQ+ identities can change quickly, so I'm bringing it up as I presume you just didn't know.) Calling someone LGBTQ+ is referring to the wide collection of identities, it's not saying they hold every single identity. Anderson Cooper is LGBTQ+, but that doesn't mean he's a lesbian. It's an umbrella term.
 * It seems like you're interested in learning more about this, so I'm going to recommend some resources. The first few chapters of Leila J. Rupp and Susan K. Freeman's "Understanding and Teaching U.S. Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender History" does a really good job of succinctly surveying traditions of LGBTQ+ histories around the world, and also does a great job of summarizing the complexities of applying modern labels to people who are deceased. The Resources section of WikiProject LGBT Studies has a comprehensive set of guidelines for the Wiki standards . If you think trying to figure out how to categorize Sally Ride is tricky, try writing about Kaúxuma Núpika! Sevey13 (talk) 22:53, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
 * given the structure of Wikipedia, we've got to pick something. Since "lesbian" doesn't accurately capture what we can know about her life, we opted for the broader LGBTQ+ category.
 * if she specifically rejected the label, then why include her in a community she rejected? Ms Ride sounds like the other option: a woman who loved a woman. there is nothing in the structure of Wikipedia that requires her to be included in a community that she was not part of and specifically rejected, so i don't think "we've got to pick something". the part about her longterm relationship can be summed up as women who have sex with women. .usarnamechoice (talk) 02:15, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 May 2023
I would like to change the Popular Culture Section from not including the play Dr. Ride's American Beach House by Liza Birkenmeier to including the play in the popular section and a brief summary and link. Evidence of purchasing the play The play premiering Off-Broadway

Below is verbatim what I would like to say:

In 2019, Dr. Ride's American Beach House by Liza Birkenmeier premiered Off-Broadway in New York City on October 21, 2019 at Ars Nova. It’s 1983, the evening before Dr. Sally Ride’s historic space flight. Hundreds of miles from the launch, life-long best friends Harriet and Matilda come together for their weekly Two Serious Ladies Book Club to follow the launch. Encounters from friends throughout he nigh bring about passionate opinions and brings to light the absence of opportunities before them as they sit on a sweltering St. Louis rooftop watching life pass them by. Their uncharted desires bump up against American norms of sex and power in this intimate snapshot of queer anti-heroines.] Birkenmeier highlights that Dr. Ride's American Beach House is about the performance and power of the self as a subject and object, especially in terms of desire, and is lensed with Dr. Ride's experience as an astronaut in relation to her LGBTQ identity. The title of the play refers to NASA's Beach House that was used for astronauts like Sally Ride to quarantine before missions.


 * I have added an abbreviated version of the suggested text to the popular section of article. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  20:14, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Consider writing an article on Liza Birkenmeier. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  20:56, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

A second change below:

I would like to change "Ride and Tyson began a relationship. To earn money they gave tennis lessons, and in 1971 and 1972 they were counselors at Dennis Van der Meer's TennisAmerica summer camp at Lake Tahoe, Nevada." to To earn money Ride and her then-girlfriend Tyson gave tennis lessons, and in 1971 and 1972 they were counselors at Dennis Van der Meer's TennisAmerica summer camp at Lake Tahoe, Nevada.

The reason for this hanger being that the grammar surrounding their relationship is awkwardly worded and ambiguous. Prentice Jones (talk) 12:40, 11 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Changed as suggested. Still awkwardly worded and ambiguous. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  20:14, 11 May 2023 (UTC)