Talk:Scientific racism/Archive 5

Race science
Is scientific racism the same as race science, or are they two separate topics?

The current article description calls scientific racism "the pseudoscientific belief that empirical evidence exists to support or justify racism (racial discrimination), racial inferiority, or racial superiority". But this a rather narrow description that excludes a lot of legitimate scientific inquiry into race, racial differences, etc.—and in fact even seems to imply that any such inquiry is unscientific.

So, should there be a separate Race science article that covers the broader study of race, while this article focuses on the pseudoscience and attempts to support or justify racism/racial superiority? Or, alternatively, should the scope of the current article be broadened to include the legitimate science that has been done in this area? Stonkaments (talk) 18:58, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
 * , as far as I am aware, the concept of "race" is a sociological construct, not a scientific reality. It is difficult to imagine "legitimate science" based on the concept of "race".  There is a subset of medical research focused on how different genetic factors, some of which are more highly-correlated with ethnic divisions, affect all kinds of medical care. E.g., Tay-Sachs or heart-attack survival rates, etc.  We have an article on that at Race and health. That may be what you are looking for. [[User:Eggishorn|Eggishorn ]] (talk) (contrib) 20:20, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The article for legitimate scientific information about "race" is Race (human categorization). Generalrelative (talk) 21:10, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Alternative medicine?
Sorry, can anyone tell me, how come this page is tagged under 'alternative medicine'? Alright, it is not western medicine, granted. But does scientific racism tries to solve or cure any health problems? According to any knowledge, belief or healing tradition? What are the healing practices of 'scientific racism' for back pain, for example? I guess, I am clear as to what I am trying to say, that there is a drastic difference, I see it this way, between alternative medicine and the topic of this article. Rather, the political investment behind scientific racism, to defend white supremacy throughout the 20th century western world, is quite evident. It has rather aided suppressing many cultures' own sense of sovereignty and thereby extirpating innumerable alternative medicinal practices. If any, its connection to diseases was actually in causing social and psychological problems, instead of doing away with any health issues, whatsoever. Any thoughts? Who can change such misleading tagging? 'preciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mt.malty (talk • contribs) 20:47, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * "Drapetomania" and Eugenics might be seen as belonging to alternative medicine, but looking at the other elements of the list in the template "Alternative medicine", I share your doubts that this article belongs there. My suggestion: Remove the article from the template, add Eugenics instead. Any thoughts ? --Rsk6400 (talk) 05:35, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree that the "Alternative medicine" template seemed like a poor fit here. On the other hand I'm unsure that Eugenics belongs on the list either, since e.g. some current forms of gene manipulation are in no way pseudomedical but may raise ethical issues related to eugenics (as discussed in that article). Generalrelative (talk) 21:33, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Pseudo scientific
> Scientific racism, sometimes termed biological racism, is the pseudoscientific belief that empirical evidence exists to support or justify racism (racial discrimination), racial inferiority, or racial superiority.[1][2][3][4] Historically, scientific racism received credence throughout the scientific community, but it is no longer considered scientific.[2][3] Dividing humankind into biologically distinct groups is sometimes called racialism or race realism by its proponents. Modern scientific consensus rejects this view as being irreconcilable with modern genetic research.[5]:360

This part should be reworked, as while some beliefs under the umbrella of scientific racism, such as phrenology are justly discarded by scientists, others still hold weight within the scientific community (as evidenced by this meta study for exemple https://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/30years/Rushton-Jensen30years.pdf ).

This introduction give therefore a biased view on the subject.

Proposition :

> Scientific racism, sometimes termed biological racism, is a set of scientific and pseudoscientific beliefs that empirical evidence exists to support or justify racism (racial discrimination), racial inferiority, or racial superiority.[1][2][3][4] Historically, scientific racism received credence throughout the scientific community, but some part of it are no longer considered scientific.[2][3] Dividing humankind into biologically distinct groups is sometimes called racialism or race realism by its proponents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A03F:647D:1300:DD02:B471:AF49:7E7B (talk) 06:44, 7 December 2020 (UTC)


 * The research on race by Arthur Jensen and J. Philippe Rushton were rejected by mainstream scientists. On Wikipedia there is a consensus of editors that scientific racism is a pseudoscience, not a science. See, for example, . NightHeron (talk) 10:18, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Lynn's map
I agree with Seoul1989's removal of the map, though not exactly for the reason given. Arguably it gives WP:UNDUE attention to Lynn. On the other hand, it does visually show the racial nature of Lynn's pseudoscience. If other editors want to keep it, it needs a caption that clearly identifies it as fringe pseudoscience and points out that Lynn's disparagement of Africa has been criticized for racial bias. The current caption only says that it has been criticized on methodological grounds. NightHeron (talk) 12:50, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
 * +1 to this. I think that NightHeron has hit the nail on the head. Generalrelative (talk) 17:28, 26 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I agree that it is undue. Skllagyook (talk) 04:02, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

This quote is clearly not meant to be scientific and is therefore not a case of scientific racism.
The following quote by Thomas Jefferson should be removed from this page as it is not an example of scientific racism. It is not an example of scientific racism as the author makes it clear it is only speculating and not an attempt to be scientific in any way.

They seem to require less sleep. A black, after hard labor through the day, will be induced by the slightest amusements to sit up till midnight, or later, though knowing he must be out with the first dawn of the morning. They are at least as brave, and more adventuresome. But this may perhaps proceed from a want of forethought, which prevents their seeing a danger till it be present. When present, they do not go through it with more coolness or steadiness than the whites. They are more ardent after their female: but love seems with them to be more an eager desire, than a tender delicate mixture of sentiment and sensation. Their griefs are transient. Those numberless afflictions, which render it doubtful whether heaven has given life to us in mercy or in wrath, are less felt, and sooner forgotten with them. In general, their existence appears to participate more of sensation than reflection... Comparing them by their faculties of memory, reason, and imagination, it appears to me, that in memory they are equal to the whites; in reason much inferior, as I think one [black] could scarcely be found capable of tracing and comprehending the investigations of Euclid; and that in imagination they are dull, tasteless, and anomalous... I advance it therefore as a suspicion only[emphasis added], that the blacks, whether originally a distinct race, or made distinct by time and circumstances, are inferior to the whites in the endowments both of body and mind.[51]

Because Jefferson is clear that this is only a "suspicion" and not a scientific finding, it is not an example of scientific racism and should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.204.186.2 (talk) 20:22, 1 February 2021 (UTC)


 * It's still scientific racism. Whether a speaker calls it a scientifically established fact, a theory of his, or a suspicion of his, it's still pseudoscience, just as when someone voices the "suspicion" that the Nazca Lines were created by extraterrestrials. NightHeron (talk) 20:49, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
 * If it's not science, nor does it ATTEMPT to BE science, how can you call it scientific, pseudo or otherwise? "It is just because I say it is" is not a legitimate answer. (nor is "because RS say it is": if RS don't give a reasonable explanation  that makes them not RS). Firejuggler86 (talk) 17:13, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm curious to know when Jefferson wrote that: if in his younger days, it could be forgivable as ignorance..if in his last few years, he would have no excuse: he ought to have known better, considering his personal experiences. Firejuggler86 (talk) 17:08, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Jefferson was born in 1743, he started to write Notes on the State of Virginia in 1781, five years after "All men are created ...". So not forgivable as ignorance. Notes was meant as a scientific (geography / politics / economy) book, so the quote is a good example of scientific racism. --Rsk6400 (talk) 17:42, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

OP is correct. This is not scientific racism. It's just racism. Laodah 00:35, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Bernasconi: Who Invented Race?
Bernasconi, Robert. "Who invented the concept of race?." Theories of race and racism. Routledge, 2020. 83-103. This article nominates Kant as the originator of the "scientific" concept of race. Of course, concept of race had existed long before, but Kant was the first to provide it with a (pseudo)scientific basis, which legitimized its use broadly. Phrenology was also invented on this basis.

Quotes from the following article provide the data which supports this claim: Eze, Emmanuel Chukwudi. "The Color of Reason: The Idea of" Race" in Kant's Anthropology." The Bucknell Review 38.2 (1995): 200.

QUOTE: It was Kant, in fact, who introduced anthropology as a branch of study to the German universities when he first started his lectures in the winter semester of 1772-3.4 He was also the first to introduce the stuqy of geography, which he considered inseparable from anthropology, to Konigsberg University, beginning from the summer semester of 1756.5 Throughout his career at the university, Kant offered 72 courses in "Anthropology" and/or "Physical Geography," more than in logic (54 times), metaphysics (49 times), moral philosophy (28), and theoretical physics {20 times).6 Although the volume Anthropologyfrom a Pragmatic Point of View was the last book edited by Kant and was published toward the end of his life, the material actually chronologi- 'cally predates the Critiques. Further, it is known that material from Kant's courses in "Anthropology" and "Physical Geography" found their way into his lectures in ethics and metaphysics.

QUOTE: In Kant's table of moral classifications, while the Americans are completely uneducable because they lack "affect and passion," the Africans escape such a malheur, but can only be "trained" as slaves and servants: The race of the American cannot be educated. It has no motivating force, for it lacks affect and passion. They are not in love, thus they are also not afraid. They hardly speak, do not caress each other, care about nothing and are lazy.71 However,. The race of the Negroes, one could say, is completely the opposite of the Americans; they are full ofaffect and passion, very lively, talkative and vain. They can be educated but only as servants (slaves), that is they allow themselves to be trained. They have many motivating forces, are also sensitive, are afraid ofblows and do much out of a sense of honor.

Finally, some really powerful quotes from: Henderson, Errol A. "Hidden in plain sight: racism in international relations theory." Cambridge Review of International Affairs 26.1 (2013): 71-92.

QUOTE: The embarrassing fact for the white West (which doubtless explains its concealment) is that their most important moral theorist of the past three hundred years is also the foundational theorist in the modern period of the division between Herrenvolk and Untermenschen, persons and subpersons, upon which Nazi theory would later draw (making the Holocaust possible). Modern moral theory and modern racial theory have the same father’ QUOTE: According to Kant, ‘the Negroes of Africa have by nature no feeling that rises above the trifling’. They are incapable of achieving the level of rationality required of moral agents. Negroes ‘can be educated but only as servants (slaves), that is they allow themselves to be trained’. Kant “advises us to use a split bamboo cane instead of a whip, so that the ‘negro’ will suffer a great deal of pains (because of the ‘negro’s’ thick skin, he would not be racked with sufficient agonies through a whip) but without dying.” To beat “the Negro” efficiently therefore requires “a cane but it has to be a split one, so that the cane will cause wounds large enough that prevent suppuration underneath the ‘negro’s’ thick skin”.

Because of the enormous influence of Kant, his views on a scientific basis for race were widely adopted --- with results that are visible to this day Asaduzaman (talk) 12:29, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

RfC on genetic link between race and intelligence
There is a request for comment on whether the hypothesis that there is a genetic link between race and intelligence is a fringe theory. If you are interested, please participate at. NightHeron (talk) 12:58, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Racism is an intention not a belief.
Racism more often than not describes an action or behavior pattern.

Scientific cannot syntactically define a belief since science is a means toward truth, not the end where truth is found.

With the word pseudoscience the article seems to claim immoral science is fake and science can only serve benevolent outcomes.

2600:1700:8B85:110:E7A:CA9:B04E:407A (talk) 11:12, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Not really, no. There is a peudoscience of race - that is to say, activities designed to promote racist ideologies, which are clothed in the trappings of science. This article describes this endeavour. Guy (help! - typo?) 12:46, 1 May 2021 (UTC)


 * You merely restated the claim: "one cannot do science and have racist intentions".


 * If not, then atleast you imply that describing competent evil rather than delusional evil would not improve the article.


 * 2600:1700:8B85:110:5EAE:F7F4:F030:9566 (talk) 06:07, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
 * That's not what I said. What I said was that things done to support racist ideology, dressed up to look like science, are pseudoscientific by definition. Guy (help! - typo?) 17:37, 2 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Sorry, perhaps you did not mean either.
 * I am still saying belief is different from intention. If a scientist researches ethnography tracking heritable neurological configurations, that science could support a racist agenda if not a racist ideology. The scientist could include known caveats like the Turing-completeness of the brain to explicitly contradict a racist ideology.
 * Racist ideologies like religious ideologies or dietary ideologies (e.g. carnism) often spawn from lies intended to support one cultural behavior or another. I would describe scientific racism thus: "the application of scientific systems to a racist agenda or a pseudoscientific belief.." etc. The beliefs are notable, but imo less important because such beliefs rarely turn out necessary to have racist intentions. 2600:1700:8B85:110:B6D7:E829:397A:CED6 (talk) 02:32, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
 * WP is based on reliable sources, not on "I would describe" or "imo". If you are unable to provide reliable sources, plese read WP:NOTFORUM and WP:TALKOFFTOPIC. --Rsk6400 (talk) 06:11, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
 * https://lainchan.org/hum/res/34135.html
 * I get I answered rudely, but ironic declarations of agency weaken what those words, essays, or links mean.
 * 2600:1700:8B85:110:B6D7:E829:397A:CED6 (talk) 06:52, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

RfC on racial hereditarianism at the R&I talk-page
An RfC at Talk:Race and intelligence revisits the question, considered last year at WP:FTN, of whether or not the theory that a genetic link exists between race and intelligence is a fringe theory. This RfC supercedes the RfC on this topic at WP:RSN that was closed as improperly formulated.

Your participation is welcome. Thank you. NightHeron (talk) 20:43, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Race Norming
http://psychology.iresearchnet.com/industrial-organizational-psychology/corporate-ethics/race-norming/

"Race norming is the practice of converting individual test scores to percentile or standard scores within one’s racial group. In the process of race norming, an individual’s percentile score is not calculated in reference to all persons who took the test; instead, an individual’s percentile score is determined only in reference to others in the same racial group. After norming scores by percentile in separate racial groups, the lists are combined to make selection decisions. By norming within racial groups, the same raw score for whites and blacks can be converted to different percentile scores based on the distribution of scores for each racial group."

Which may sound like a form of affirmative action but-

In recent news the above was used by the NFL to deny black player's health benefits. "In simple terms, the test starts black people off at a lower cognitive rate, which means that their neurological tests have to show significantly more decline than whites to reach benchmarks that allow them to get paid."

https://deadspin.com/for-the-nfl-racism-is-all-a-part-of-an-economic-strate-1846937504

Seems like this material belongs on the page somewhere.2601:46:C801:B1F0:DC42:DBDE:9306:BD1B (talk) 02:06, 22 May 2021 (UTC)


 * From your description the NFL practice certainly sounds like a racism topic, but not scientific racism, unless you have a source that says that this policy is based on a claim of racist pseudoscience (such as genetic inferiority in intelligence). Note that there's already an article on Race norming, so maybe it belongs there. NightHeron (talk) 11:50, 22 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Also: note that the first block of text here is a direct quote from the first source you cite. Quoting text without indicating that it is a quote is a copyright violation. Generalrelative (talk) 15:33, 22 May 2021 (UTC)


 * This reads as blacks inherently have lower cognitive skills than whites. Which reads to me as a pseudoscience claim of genetically, biologically or physically inferior. Thank you for the link to the Race Norms page, it certainly seems to belong there. Also, thank you, I properly quoted both passages of attributable text.2601:46:C801:B1F0:15C6:2D37:B712:757F (talk) 19:47, 22 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Thank you for going back and adding quotation marks. Generalrelative (talk) 20:22, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Evaluation
The article is written properly in a neutral voice, and is easy to follow. I was impressed by the outsourcing the author did, and the references made to works and papers. Perhaps some portions could be more concise, but this is not a huge issue. Overall, no major changes need to be made, only small details to look out for. SageSab (talk) 02:12, 4 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the feedback! I'm not the article author-technically no one person is (it looks like 349 separate editors have contributed to this page).
 * If you think this article is particularly good, you might consider nominating it to be a Good Article. –– FormalDude  talk  08:00, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Merger discussion at The Bell Curve
Your participation is welcome in the discussion at Talk:The Bell Curve concerning merging the article Cognitive elite into The Bell Curve. NightHeron (talk) 22:12, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 November 2021
Under the External Links section, please add a link to the "Eugenics and Scientific Racism Fact Sheet" (https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/fact-sheets/Eugenics-and-Scientific-Racism) developed by the National Human Genome Research Institute. This fact sheet was published on November 3, 2021. Alwayskul (talk) 13:31, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Done. Thanks for the suggestion. NightHeron (talk) 14:41, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

"Race" and "species" interchangeability
I think this sentence should be removed: "Until the 18th century, the words 'race' and 'species' were interchangeable." It will be interpreted as implying that the modern concepts of 'race' and 'species' were interchangeable--i.e., that people before the 18th century treated different races as different species. Beyond this false or exaggerated implication, I'm not sure what the sentence adds.128.12.88.50 (talk) 17:00, 19 December 2021 (UTC)


 * It is important context for the following sections, which quote pre-18th century thinkers who use the terms interchangeably. - MrOllie (talk) 17:14, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Section on academic freedom and freedom of inquiry
Why was that section removed? Fq90 (talk) 13:46, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * There are clearly issues with the section. As was/is explained here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Race_and_intelligence#Section_on_academic_freedom_and_freedom_of_inquiry
 * Please do not add disputed material to other articles without WP:CONSENSUS.Skllagyook (talk) 13:57, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

From our previous discussion it looked like the editors of the other page thought this page would be a more appropriate forum for that material.Fq90 (talk) 14:02, 22 January 2022 (UTC)


 * I followed that discussion and I'm afraid you're mistaken. Thanks to Skllagyook for their excellent comments there. --Rsk6400 (talk) 14:08, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * No, when I said it was already dealt with here, I absolutely did not mean that you should cut and paste the same problematic (and partly duplicitive) section here. MrOllie (talk) 15:47, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * That content was inappropriate. Among other things, the sources were uneven in weight, non-neutrally summarized, and arbitrarily sampled. The section title highlighted this problem. Grayfell (talk) 23:00, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I have gone through this article but found very little overlap with the section I proposed.

What do you mean "uneven in weight"?, all the content was true information though, if you think there are more relevant facts around that would make the section more balanced you are welcome to add them. The title was "Issues pertaining to academic freedom and freedom of inquiry". Would you not agree that is an important area of discussion regarding this issue? Fq90 (talk) 01:37, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Nazi Germany
"The war crimes and crimes against humanity of Nazi Germany (1933–45) discredited scientific racism in academia." seems an enormously grandiose (and vague) statement to make with no source material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.102.62.3 (talk) 21:53, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Who invented the term "scientific racism", and when was it introduced?
Is there reason to be believe we are too immature about genetic research? Yes, there is.

First: It has been said that the fruit fly contains ~96% of the DNA as a white man; thus, the black race is the same as the white. However, we don't have Civil Rights for fruit flies, and thank god we don't, or we would all be Buddhist monks. What is wrong with conventional thinking?

Second: Since the DNA project fell into private hands over 20 years ago, not a single disease has been cured. Why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lord Milner (talk • contribs) 21:17, 14 August 2022 (UTC)


 * First off, fruit flies definitely DO NOT have 95% DNA commonality with human beings. Great apes do.  Ashley Montagu had a large role in popularizing the concept of Scientific racism. AnonMoos (talk) 03:13, 15 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Genetics is very, very complicated. Nobody is denying this, but trying to simplistically divide people into races makes it even more difficult. Grayfell (talk) 03:41, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Is that a full throated endorsement of racism as scientific? Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 18:28, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "but trying to simplistically divide people into races makes it even more difficult." The concept itself is often absurd. It requires genetically distinct populations with little to no genetic admixture, when historical and genealogical records depict marital or sexual relations between people from entirely different geographical regions or social backgrounds. Dimadick (talk) 10:38, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * This does not seem to be about improving the article. --Hob Gadling (talk) 13:25, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

The Australian government
The Australian government treated the Australian Aborigines inhumanely and committed serious human rights violation against this group

Scientific Racism Social Darwinism Eugenics Impact of colonialism on Aborigines Immigration policies Stolen Generation Assimilation progammes — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.245.122.124 (talk) 12:31, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Boulainvilliers Sources
This article desperately needs sources about Boulainvilliers. I am not nearly expert enough to do so, sadly, as this is on the fringes of my expertise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8807:8687:8C00:7156:8017:3F27:8668 (talk) 20:52, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

James watson and use of the term "scientific" in the title
I'm sorry if these discussions have been done already but I wonder :

1. If james watson should be included in the article as well, as he's had a lot of comments on the relation between genetics and races. He's a pretty important scientific so I figure he should be at least mentioned in the article. But on the other hand he went so awry, and I don't think he's fair to consider him a scientific when it comes to his ideas about DNA and races. Maybe it's like mentioning Pauling on an article about vitamin C megadosage (but actuallin Pauling is mentioned on said article, anyway...).

2. If the title could be improved. The use of "scientific" in the article's title is really misleading.

Alexisbu (talk) 12:03, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
 * This article is about people trying to find scientific evidence to justify racism. Watson never did any research to support his prejudices, he just blabs on about them, so he is not a scientific racist, just a normal one.
 * It's like Scientific creationism, which is not scientific either. Or a sealion, which is not a lion. --Hob Gadling (talk) 12:37, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Would this be appropriate to add to Scientific racism?
In 2022 The Chronicle of Higher Education reported on a researcher at Cleveland State University whose "home institution was essentially providing a soapbox for racist pseudoscience.... Despite nearly a dozen publications over more than a decade arguing for the intellectual inferiority of Black people," the professor was judged to have meritorious research and was promoted and given tenure. In 2022 he was fired following an investigation by the National Institutes of Health that found that he had violated regulations concerning the handling of medical data. The article states that he had some influence on "public misperceptions of race" as a result of heavy editing of an early version of Wikipedia's article on race and intelligence. Note the related discussion at WP:AN. NightHeron (talk) 11:26, 18 October 2022 (UTC)


 * I don't know if this is really a significant enough event in the history of scientific racism to warrant a mention, especially not a whole paragraph. We need to be wary about giving undue weight to things just because they involved Wikipedia. Maybe in Reliability of Wikipedia or similar, though? –&#8239;Joe (talk) 13:18, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Seems more due at Race and intelligence and/or Cleveland State University. Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 15:20, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Or even History of the race and intelligence controversy? It's definitely some solid investigative reporting. It would be good, however, to wait to see if other sources pick up the story at all. Generalrelative (talk) 15:46, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I decided to come here first rather than R&I or History of the race and intelligence controversy because the Scientific racism article already has a section with closely related content, such as the reference to Saini's concern in her book and the mention of a major press (Elsevier) publishing racist pseudoscience that had to be retracted. The section History of the race and intelligence controversy deals with the substantive debate rather than with particular incidents or scandals, so this paragraph would seem out of place there.
 * The article in The Chronicle of Higher Education highlights the white supremacist researcher's editing of R&I as evidence of his influence on the public. It's not the first time the early editing of that article was a focus of off-wiki attention. A 2018 article by the Southern Poverty Law Center about alt-right influence on Wikipedia focused on R&I, that is, the version of several years ago. For a while the R&I talk-page had a link to the SPLC article. So I think the Wikipedia angle is WP:DUE, although probably not for Scientific racism. NightHeron (talk) 18:22, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I added part of the text to Criticism of Wikipedia in the paragraph about the SPLC article. NightHeron (talk) 09:01, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I added the reference to MDPI. XOR&#39;easter (talk) 17:46, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I also added the text, minus the part about Wikipedia, to Cleveland State University, per HEB's suggestion above. I initially thought of putting it in the Race and intelligence article, but the relevant section of that article is titled "The Pioneer Fund and The Bell Curve", and the text is not related to either. It might be useful to put more about the recent history of racial pseudoscience in the R&I article, such as content from Scientific racism and/or History of the race and intelligence controversy, in which case we'd also change the title of the section. I'm not sure. NightHeron (talk) 10:49, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

This isn't related to scientific theories - advocacy issues
The Christian Bible was interpreted to sanction slavery and from the 1820s to the 1850s was often used in the antebellum Southern United States, by writers such as the Rev. Richard Furman and Thomas R. Cobb, to enforce the idea that Negroes had been created inferior, and thus suited to slavery.[61]

1. This isn't related to science. The source backs it up. But the source doesn't speak of science here. But if you read the source further, it does actually deal with "christianity+science" here instead

''There was a growing movement in America shortly before the Civil War, as pressure against slavery was increasing, to justify slavery not just with scripture [edit: this refers to 1820-1850], but also with so-called "science". At this time, however, most biologists, known then as naturalists, were theologically trained. Biology was still considered to be a Biblically based study of "the creation" before Darwin came along.''

This doesn't say 1820-1850 (it explicitly says that was only with regards to scripture!). I believe this should be understood as 1850-1860. By the way, this is just my insight, literal reading among intellectuals of the Bible was dropped long ago at this point in time - so far as science was produced by interpretting the bible at this point in time, it would have been considered fringe (due to standards that arose in the Enlightment Age). If you read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_biology there is no mention of the bible. 2. The source is also questionable and fails WP:RSSELF anyway, appears to be advocacy material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.237.80.141 (talk • contribs) 04:52, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Yo, I'm the same person, by the way, back in days the paragraph looked like this: ''[...] Unilinealism depicting a progression from primitive human societies to industrialised civilisation became popular amongst philosophers including Friedrich Hegel, Immanuel Kant and Auguste Comte, and fitted well with the Christian belief of a divine Creation following which all of humanity descended from the same Adam and Eve. '''In contrast, polygenist theory alleged that there were different origins of mankind, thus making it possible to conceive of different, biological, human races, or to classify other humans as akin to animals without rights. Early scientific racist theories such as Arthur Gobineau's An Essay on the Inequality of the Human Races (1853-1855) were mostly decadent in that they did not believe in the possibility of "improvement of the race."' The text marked with fat was removed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scientific_racism&diff=prev&oldid=180954538. Later a year after and fitted well with the Christian belief of a divine Creation following which all of humanity descended from the same Adam and Eve. was removed as well here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/98.214.100.36. So the entire paragraph was kinda washed from any information that could put christianity in a positive light and replaced with information that could put christianity in a negative light. So it clearly appears like there is some anti-christianity advocacy going on here, especially because the new passage at the end of the paragraph has no ground (nor relevance). I have no idea whether it's worth to insert the christianity-friendly information back. My opinion is that we should have in mind that this is about scientific racism, not religious (anti)racism (otherwise we could go on talking about the christian abolitionism in the Roman Empire, etc.). The paragraph should definitely be fixed.130.225.188.131 (talk) 19:23, 24 January 2023 (UTC)


 * dave souza, hey, I'm a bit confused 130.225.188.131 (talk) 00:41, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry to hear that you're a bit confused, but your comments lack clear proposals for article improvement. The statement you're commenting on seems to me to be entirely appropriate as context. . . dave souza, talk 20:13, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Nice summation
Speaking of, this review of Peschel provides an excellent summary of the intellectual problems involved in this endeavor:
 * Language, myths, habits, clothing, ornaments, weapons, are described in detail, while we are left without any sufficient information as to the stature, bodily proportions, features, and broad mental characteristics of many important groups of men. The reason is obvious. The former class of facts can be readily obtained by passing travellers; while the latter require the systematic observation of an intelligent resident and more or less skilled anthropologist, and can only be arrived at by means of careful measurements and long-continued observations. It is not sufficiently considered that in almost every part of the world there is more or less intermixture of races, brought about by various causes--as slavery, war, trade, and accidental migrations. Hence in many cases the passing traveller is altogether deceived as to the characters of the race, and any observations he may make are of little value. It is only by a long residence among a people, by travelling through the whole district they inhabit, and by a more or less accurate knowledge of the surrounding tribes with whom they may be intermixed, that the observer is enabled to disentangle the complexities they present, and determine with some approach to accuracy the limits of variation of the pure or typical race. Unfortunately this has yet been done in comparatively few cases; but anthropologists are now becoming impressed with its importance, and we may soon hope to obtain a body of trustworthy materials, which may enable us to determine, with more confidence than is yet possible, the characters and the affinities of many of the best marked races of mankind.

the mistake of course being that he should've been more open to the possibilities of those long-term studies and careful measurements finding no meaningful differences after adjusting for childhood nutrition, stimulation during early development, &c. and the concept of a "pure or typical race" being either a null set or a game of no true Scotsman. In any case, it could be used for sourcing here and in other articles that some people at the time realized most of the problems that seem so clear to us while still not quite being able to get through to the other side, generally except in religious contexts. — Llywelyn II   04:08, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

WP:BIAS
Obviously, as France's tilting against le wokisme likes to highlight, this field of study is—like English Wiki itself—dominated by Anglos prone to particularly intense sessions of naval gazing. That doesn't mean that we should allow the main articles—by focus or omission—to act like this was a US/UK joint project with French accompaniment that barely involved the rest of the world. Pseudoscientific racial essentialism is as old as civilization and has had proponents from the Greeks to the Indians to the Sinosphere. It didn't magically pop out of the British and French Enlightenment's head like a misbegotten Athena. It also wasn't principally (let alone solely) developed within French, English, and American sources.

People have put a lot of work into this but, when important figures like Oscar Peschel go entirely omitted but early modern Scottish jurists show up essentially just for repeating a belief in Genesis, there's still more work to be done. (More contentious, but I do think that a short paragraph is necessary ahead of the Enlightenment going through the general tendency of premodern religious cosmologies—which science initially tries to quantify and help prove—towards racial essentialism and hierarchies with links to the more important examples like the Brahmin caste and the 'division of the world' by the children of Noah in Genesis). — Llywelyn II   00:45, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:SOFIXIT. Readable prose length is currently 65kB; there's room to grow. This is currently a C-class article. It has been assessed as "substantial but is still missing important content or contains irrelevant material. The article should have some references to reliable sources, but may still have significant problems or require substantial cleanup." VQuakr (talk) 00:58, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Not touching a topic like this with a 10 ft pole. I get enough edit wars as it is trying to get random Spaniards to accept their own sources already in their own articles that the Tordesillas Meridian was never accurately defined, let alone measured, let alone implemented. Removing blocks of cited text in articles on "justified" racism is an entirely different level.


 * I'll still lay a marker and start the discussion about where things should be headed next, though. — Llywelyn II   01:22, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * This isn't an article about racial theories or racial essentialism in general, past or present; it is about the misuse of science at the interpretive phase of the analysis (of empirical information) to produce pseudoscientific results, so no, not just any racist bunk from the past or present should be here, and it is post-enlightenment because that is when empirical science and racism intersect. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:37, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Between Renaissance/Chinese natural philosophy and early modern "science" (which they still called natural philosophy), that's just a game of moving goalposts to keep your Scotsmen (im)pure and at least needs to lay out its criteria and background more clearly than it presently does. Thanks for so clearly giving an example of the strident my-opinion-as-pure-fact attitudes* that are common with the topic and why rebuilds require very slow consensus building to avoid pointless edit warring. (*I get that you very sincerely believe there's a clean line when people stop using ſ and talking about transmutation in print when this topic 'naturally' starts. Like I said, I disagree and think better context is called for. Alternatively, which I don't support, most of the current text in the article needs to be expunged because they were wearing wigs but not actually using carefully done studies or any form of what we consider modern science to meet the guideline you're advocating.) —  Llywelyn II   04:10, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @LlywelynII: Unfortunately, you took a few leaps there. I don't care about any Scotsmen. I repeated the information that is already present, sourced, in the lead. It is the claim in this talk that the subject is missing vital aspects that is currently sitting out there naked and unsourced. I can cite literally any source I choose to make my point, but let's take this: The Origins of Scientific Racism - it starts with Darwinism and evolution. Quelle surprise. The point is that scientific racism is a defined thing that does not simply extend ad hoc and at whim to random aspects of pre-enlightenment bunk about the Bible or modern-day Brahmin fantasies, though I do agree that what is lacking here is a timely update of the ongoing outlets for scientific racism in the contemporary period. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:58, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Bernier and Boyle and various others from among the early enlightenment figures with a fondness for dabbling in racial theory seem like rather borderline examples. It is unclear how far their 'empiricism' went, and there may be some WP:SYNTH here with a range of garden variety European racists being introduced into the mix. I can certainly see a paucity of sources directly connecting many of these individuals with the term "Scientific Racism", which, given the literature, needn't be missing. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:17, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The "antecedents" section generally seems rather overblown. All of this is essentially "background" and not the main 1800s topic itself, and might actually be better off in a separate article on Racial theory in the Enlightenment or something similar, although there are sources that can just about tie the two together and justify the inclusion for now, e.g. Revisiting Enlightenment racial classification: time and the question of human diversity: "The Enlightenment is commonly held accountable for the rise of both racial classification and modern scientific racism." But this is essentially the "History of X" equivalent stuff ready to be hived off later. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:32, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Change article title. Use of the term "scientific" in the title is misleading
Imagine that you are a young child reading this article. It is the first time you read about racism, and you click on this article. There is nothing scientific about scientific racism. The better title would be pseudoscientific racism. The use of "scientific" in the article's title is not only wrong, but perpetuates the idea that somehow the illegal practice of racism can be scientific, and thus it takes on the prestige and validity that stems from scientific knowledge and inquiry. DTMGO (talk) 19:44, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
 * It's a scholarly term, and a child is unlikely to accidentally click here looking for 'racism'. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:48, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
 * It is widely known that children look at Wikipedia when doing homework.
 * Furthermore, this idea is as ridiculous as saying:
 * scientific sexism
 * scientific holocaust denial
 * scientific astrology
 * scientific flat earth theory
 * Can we at least add some chapter discussing about naming issues, what has been said by reputable sources about this issue of naming scientific (adverb) something that is not scientific.
 * This is like saying I have a blue car, but in reality, my car is yellow.  You should not call racism scientific.  This is a public ongoing debate.  Can we add content on that ?  DTMGO (talk) 20:46, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Are any of the examples you listed actually commonly used scholarly terms? If not then your analogy isn't valid. We already clearly define the term in the lead sentence of the article. This issue isn't uncommon and is covered by policy in WP:POVNAME. VQuakr (talk) 20:53, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
 * So do you agree that I can add content in this article covering the public debate of the name or naming of the concept "scientific racism"?  DTMGO (talk) 21:01, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
 * You don't need anyone's permission per WP:BOLD. Since specific proposed changes or relevant sources haven't been provided, I don't have an opinion. From a WP:WEIGHT standpoint it's hard for me to imagine that we'd want to devote much space to it though. VQuakr (talk) 21:28, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
 * It's the name for this article's topic and has to be used for it.


 * On the other hand, your concerns aren't invalid and I'm completely in support of using snear quotes around "scientific" in this context in the title and all the way down the article. — Llywelyn II   00:45, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Strongly disagree with marring the article with sarcastic quote marks. As the lead makes plain, scientific racism is based on real science; the pseudoscience comes in with the belief that empirical evidence can be interpreted as supporting sweeping, erroneous generalizations about race (the irony there, of course, being that race itself is notoriously poorly defined). Iskandar323 (talk) 03:42, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * "Scientific racism is based on real science; ... " If science is in its essence about finding new knowledge, then there is no real science in scientific racism. Because there is nothing to be found.  Nothing has been found. DTMGO (talk) 10:11, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * User talk:LlywelynII I second this. Great idea. DTMGO (talk) 10:12, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * We are obviously not going to insert MOS:SCAREQUOTES into the article. VQuakr (talk) 10:40, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * So newtonian physics is not science according to you. There is no reason to deny the history. 130.225.188.130 (talk) 21:34, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Huh? VQuakr (talk) 21:40, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Newton physics were wrong. Well, not if certain variables are isolated (considered as a "subset"), but as it originally was posited, it was wrong. But we don't call Newtonian physics pseudoscience by that reason. @DTMGO OP, wants to rewrite the history of science because the scientific community was wrong about some dangerous theories. Sad, yeah, but that's how it was. Eugenics were mainstream science back then. We understand history on its own premises, not on the premises of 2020. 176.22.160.62 (talk) 02:58, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The comparison is wrong. Newton's mechanics were based on carefully planned experiments and his theories are still correct, only that Einstein and Heisenberg taught us their limits. Scientific racism was based on racist prejudice and those scientists just found what they had been searching for ("My race is superior"). That's why it was pseudoscientific, not scientific. But since WP:COMMONNAME applies here, we shouldn't change the title. Rsk6400 (talk) 07:48, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * No, Newton was practicing science. He came up with a model that fit available experimental data. That isn't relevant to the subject of this article, which is about racism under the guise of science. VQuakr (talk) 19:47, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @Rsk6400, @VQuakr, neither of you are reading history on its own terms. 130.225.188.131 (talk) 19:38, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * K. VQuakr (talk) 23:01, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

racism in philosophical anthropology
I have removed the following sentence from "Racial theories in physical anthropology (1850–1918)":

"The proposal that social status is unilineal—from primitive to civilized, from agricultural to industrial—became popular among philosophers, including Friedrich Hegel, Immanuel Kant, and Auguste Comte."

It is not supported by the source given at the end of the paragraph, which mentions only Kant—and very much just in passing. (Also, the phrase "social status is unilineal" does not make sense to me.)

The fact that the figures are out of chronological order, Hegel is named "Friedrich Hegel" (as no one in his life or in the scholarship refers to him), and Comte is lumped together with two German Idealists strongly indicate that the author of this claim had little idea what he was talking about.

If someone wants to add something about Kant, however, there are multiple sources to be found at Immanuel_Kant.

I do not think that Hegel fits into the category of scientific racism since race, on his account, is determined by climate and geography and is hence malleable. But I could be wrong. See Georg_Wilhelm_Friedrich_Hegel for a few sources.

I've not studied Comte, but, as with Kant, if he is to be included this should be sourced and, most probably, discussed independently, given the many differences between his project and that of Kant (and Hegel).

Best, Patrick J. Welsh (talk) 22:05, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Recognizing Egalitarian Contributions
This article seems homogeneously negative, but it doesn't need to be. I have two specific suggestions to address the negativity:


 * recognize that, in terms of historical context, practically all scholarship was racist until the end of the 18th century.
 * recognize scholars who concretely enabled scholarship to replace racism with an egalitarian foundation.

As it stands, this article promotes negativity and cynicism for science that degrades all of scholarship in a wholesale fashion. This feeds popular cynicism about scholarship and truth that negatively impacts egalitarian society.

Regarding historical context: This page enumerates a huge collection of scholars that contribute to the perpetuation of racist beliefs. Given that that practically all relevant scholarship was racist through the end of the 18th century, tagging such scholarship as 'racism' is not always a meaningful distinction. It risks unfairly condemning some who were mere participants in the primitive state of period science. While this may be unavoidable, to a degree, readers would benefit from a disclaimer regarding said risk. Maintainers of this material should also seek to understand and clarify between dishonest manipulation of science, in contrast to science that was racist because it built from a context laced with racist components, but without deliberate scientific dishonesty. It should establish a clear standard for whether it assumes scientists act in good faith, and if so how it determines that evidence of bad faith is sufficient for documentation here. Casual references to historic scholars without robust evidence of bad faith is particularly unfair and unfortunate, given such scholars have no ability to defend their reputation.

Towards constructing the positive narrative, it seems there are a set of scholars who are easily identified as advancing the foundation of non-racist science and scholarship. In particular, I would document


 * Galileo. His refusal to subordinate to religious doctrine regarding geocentrism was a pivotal point in giving standing to science as an alternative to religious authority as a source of truth. Also probably Newton and Bacon.
 * Immanuel Kant. His Categorical Imperative articulated a secular notion of morality. This liberated morality from religious doctrine. It established that rights and duties apply to all rational beings, challenging the notion of his contemporaries that rights apply only to a restricted subset of humans such as white males. Kant also challenged his peers by asserting that all human races were derived from a single species, in opposition to popular theories regarding divine creation of races or distinct species for certain races.
 * Charles Darwin. I believe his theory of Evolution enabled science to understand an alternative for creation of a species to divine act.
 * The whole lineage of scholars who contributed to our understanding of DNA and molecular genetics.

I am sure there are many more scientists, some who may have held racist beliefs, but who were critical in enabling science to escape from a primitive, ignorant, racist state and enable the possibility of egalitarian science that modern society properly deserves and demands. If the community supporting this page is supportive I would be happy to help get things started, but I am a computer scientist by training and definitely not enough of a historian to own this project.

Separately, this article would also benefit from a discussion of the history of the term "scientific racism": when it was introduced as a concept, by whom, to what ends, and how it has impacted scholarship.

JBradleyChen (talk) 18:09, 21 April 2023 (UTC)


 * To begin addressing these concerns, I propose to add "Background" and "Etymology" sections to this article. See my draft here:
 * User:JBradleyChen/sandbox JBradleyChen (talk) 23:05, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * @Iskandar323 @VQuakr @LlywelynII @Dave souza @PatrickJWelsh Please note proposed updates to article wiki/Scientific_Racism JBradleyChen (talk) 23:10, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * @JBradleyChen: I suggest starting where sources that provide an overview of the subject start, e.g.The Origins of Scientific Racism. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:37, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for directing me to that reference. It seems representative of the overall problem, although I need to evaluate to what degree the problem is the article (Scientific_Racism) vs. my perception of the article.
 * Jackson and Weidman 2005 explains how Darwin's work was used by scientific racists. That I accept. What I find more problematic is organizing our discussion around Darwin's name, when the fact is the scientific racists would have happily started with whatever the predominant theory happened to be. Seems to me we could explain scientific racism without defaming the scientists who were actually competent. JBradleyChen (talk) 15:47, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi J, respectfully, I don't think most of your suggestions will be successful, at least not as they currently stand.
 * This article isn't about the idea of scientists being racist (or not) or being good (or not), but about a phenomenon, specifically: the pseudoscientific belief that empirical evidence exists to support or justify racism (racial discrimination), racial inferiority, or racial superiority. Personally, I believe it should remain that way.
 * Being neutral does not mean being positive; your proposal puts an incredible amount of undue weight on scientists who have very little to do with the pseudoscientific belief that empirical evidence exists to support or justify racism (racial discrimination), racial inferiority, or racial superiority, especially by taking attention off the adherents of scientific racism. We do not need to give equal attention to racist and non-racist scientists when discussing racist scientists.
 * That being said, the etymology of the term would be helpful. I'm not sure if there's a need for a "Background" section, as that should be covered in the lead. If (some of) this content is included, I think it should be put in its appropriate section (such as putting Kant in #Monogenism and polygenism) to avoid a simplistic "criticisms" section.  Wracking  💬 23:39, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you @Wracking for the feedback. I will consider your feedback on neutrality, although I'm not sure I understand. If the page were simply about scientific racism in a static sense, your feedback would make more sense. As it stands it is about the history of scientific racism, and emphasizes one side of the history, so seems at odds with Neutral point of view, and risks leaving a reader feeling cynical about science. If you are thinking of other articles which similarly have a two-sided history and present only one side I would like to consider them. Also, the failure to mention figures such as Douglass and Comas seem like critical omissions. But I'm fairly new here and am still learning my way around.
 * Even individuals who argued against racism in their times, such as Benjamin Rush, are lampooned for their mistaken beliefs, despite there being no better science at the time to believe. Rush has no opportunity to defend his reputation. Even if every fact in the article is correct, selecting a biased set of facts is not neutral. JBradleyChen (talk) 00:49, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The article is not about the history of scientific racism, though– it's about scientific racism (per the title!), and includes discussion of modern scientific racism.
 * I don't think it's "selecting a biased set of facts" to report specifically on the adherents of a certain ideology in the article about that ideology. Could there be more information about their dissidents? Maybe, but as NightHeron pointed out, sources (specifically secondary sources) are needed to make these connections.
 * References aren't just to point Wikipedia readers where to go (and you can't reference a Wikipedia article), but also to prove that you didn't just make it up. For example, are there reliable, independent, secondary sources that discuss Galileo's connection to scientific racism?
 * (Also wanna note that, like you, I'm just a Wikipedia editor, and a fairly new one at that. This is just my two cents.) Wracking  💬 03:25, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I appreciate the feedback, and need to give this some thought. I know I can be prickly sometime. I'm sorry about that. JBradleyChen (talk) 07:10, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * No hard feelings at all! Wracking  💬 16:48, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * In your proposed "Background" section the first two paragraphs are unsourced (except for a citation of Kant). There's a big problem of WP:OR in your proposed additions and also in your statements above (e.g., about the roles of Kant and Darwin). In the "Etymology" section the displayed quote by B.-H. Meir, although it's only 1 sentence, manages to use 4 terms that are incomprehensible to me and probably most wikipedians: orthodox-hieratic, bibliocratic, ancilla mysterii, and dialectical materialism. I have no idea what Meir is saying. NightHeron (talk) 23:45, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the feedback. Apologies for not providing sources; that obviously must be addressed before editing the article, although I was unsure how much sourcing I should do here when the proper course for the reader would be to refer to the main article (e.g. Galileo).
 * I too find the quote from Meir confusing. I serves more as an illustration. It is the earliest use of the term I found, so there is not an alternative quote to use. It could be omitted though. JBradleyChen (talk) 00:54, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * JBradleyChen, could your concerns be addressed by adding a section called something like "Criticism by contemporaries" ? That section could focus on scholars criticising racism in the 18th and 19th centuries, e.g. Blumenbach who rejected the idea of "Ethiopians" being less intelligent by pointing to an African-born German university teacher ? (don't remember his name right now) Rsk6400 (talk) 05:41, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the suggestion. It is probably a better approach than what I suggested in my sandbox. What I have been thinking about this evening is that the proper change is pretty substantial, revising the intro and potentially a lot of additions, removals and modifications elsewhere, but it's a huge undertaking and seems pointless unless tolerated and preferably endorsed by the people who maintain this page. JBradleyChen (talk) 07:51, 23 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Obviously Galileo-vs-the-Church (to the extent that it was later publicized and used as a stick to beat the Catholics with in Protestant countries) doesn't belong here at all, even if it had any effect on the church or people's opinions of it, which it mostly didn't. Similarly the categorical imperitive, which seems to be misunderstood as in any way applying more generally than Christian and other moral systems already did. Similarly, the core of DNA research is entirely off topic inasmuch as it doesn't speak against racial differences in any meaningful way. &c. &c. &c.


 * This isn't a blog to laundry list the morality of science and scientists. It should drill very specifically into the use of science to 'justify' racist beliefs and practices. It's fair enough to point towards the history out of those beliefs (largely via science) but it should neither get this far off topic or use generalities ("eventually led to") to imagine that Darwinism or early genetics lead to anything but greater racism towards the 'less developed' races until well into the 20th century.


 * On the other hand, the generally unknown people who ran the actual studies showing greater variability within supposed racial groups than between them (the actual scientific basis for transcending 'scientific' racism) could be discussed and linked in a very helpful way. — Llywelyn II   07:31, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I will reconsider inclusion of Galileo and Bacon.
 * I'm curious who you have in mind "generally unknown people who ran the actual studies" or maybe that is a research project.
 * Regarding "laundry list" I think that is part of what made me want to change this page. Some concerns:
 * I don't think this page should list every scientist in the last 500 years who held a racist belief, especially before the 19th century when the primitive state of science meant that every scientist who held a belief on race held a belief that is easy to ridicule. So for example I don't see the relevance of the racism of Rush and Kant to this page.
 * The material on Darwin is very disappointing; mostly hearsay and how his theories were abused by others. Meanwhile it generally ignores the critical importance of his contributions to enabling our modern scientific understanding. This aligns with the overall negativity of the article.
 * What seems missing to me, and what I tried to suggest in my draft, is a narrative that focuses a reader on the scholars that actually made a difference, positive or negative, on scientific racism. Overall I'm not fond of the sections of this page that are lists of people. A narrative that followed the development and dismissal of the relevant, flawed scientific theories would focus attention on people who mattered, and give proper exposure to individuals who moved competent science forward.
 * I'm very grateful for your feedback and patience. JBradleyChen (talk) 08:27, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Constructively, I think the article could be improved as follows:
 * Replace sections Antecedents and Later Thinkers with a structure based on scientific racist theories, chronologically, so Polygenism, Craniometry, Eugenics, Phrenology, etc. These generally have their own Wikipedia articles, so should mostly be covered there.
 * Explain the juxtaposition, both historical and conceptual, of the different theories.
 * Recognize individuals whose intent was racism and who manipulated science as a means to an end.
 * Recognize individuals whose intent was competent science, and who actively opposed bad science.
 * Identify individuals whose intent was competent science, but who were incorrect/incompetent.
 * Identify as victims individuals whose competent work was misappropriated by others.
 * Acknowledge but avoid digressions into the casual racism littered throughout western history when it simply reflects period norms and has no further bearing on the course of scientific racism.
 * @Iskandar323 @LlywelynII @NightHeron @Rsk6400 @Wracking keen for your thoughts. JBradleyChen (talk) 18:06, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * It seems to me that your approach here and in the sandbox draft is a bit backwards. There are two ways an editor can arrive at material they want to add to an article: (1) The editor decides, based on the editor's knowledge and opinions, what the article is missing and what it should say; then writes a proposed text; and then finally looks for sources that support specific points in that text. (2) The editor first examines secondary sources (such as in this case the book "Superior" by Angela Saini, the textbook by Jackson-Weidman-Nadine, and perhaps the older classic "The Mismeasure of Man" by Gould) and learns how those sources describe the historical role of various theories and various scientists; and then writes a carefully sourced proposed text based on the consensus of the secondary sources. According to Wikipedia policy, approach (1) violates WP:NOR, and approach (2) is how Wikipedia is supposed to work. NightHeron (talk) 19:28, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback. I am not familiar with Wikipedia processes so definitely appreciate the guidance. Part of why I suggested changes is it can be irritating when people complain but aren't ready to do the work. So I my mindset was volunteering to do actual work on this page.
 * Process is important but I am also interested in feedback on the ways I see to improve the page. So in lieu of suggesting changes here are some possible opportunities where the current material might be improvable:
 * Scientific racism is about pseudo-scientific theories, but given the current organization it's not straightforward to identify the early theories, when they were relevant, who supported them, who opposed them, and why they failed. I imagine a list of pre-modern theories ought to include polygenism, craniometry, eugenics, and phrenology, but even inferring such a list is pretty hard. Should it be? It seems to me like this is a pretty basic thing for a reader to get out of this material.
 * The page details a huge collection of racist beliefs for historical figures. While all racism is abhorrent, not all of it is consequential to the history of scientific racism. Some examples seem to be of little consequence. For example, it's easy to ridicule the beliefs of Benjamin Rush, given our knowledge of modern science, but the article fails to make the case that his mistaken beliefs had any impact on anyone, relative to (for example) the impact of polygenism. Similarly for Risley, Vogt, Stanhope Smith, and Hunter. Their inclusion would make sense if the page documented why their racism was of consequence to scientific racism, beyond the level of the casual racism that was sadly ubiquitous in pre-modern times.
 * The a list-of-scholars format lends itself to character assassination without illuminating questions of science. For example, the discussion of Charles Darwin mentions "On the Origin of Species" only to dismiss it as "did not discuss human origins", then ignores the fact that Darwin committed an entire chapter of The Descent of Man to argue against polygenism. There is plenty of hearsay about Darwin's beliefs, but little consideration for what he himself wrote and believed. For example, in The Descent of Man, Darwin condemned slavery in the strongest terms, writing of "the sin of slavery." Two paragraphs describe commentary from Hofstadter and Himmelfarb on how Darwin was exploited by scientific racists who misappropriated his theories, with Darwin a victim, but nothing to identify the racists responsible for that misappropriation.
 * The current discussion seems to neglect key figures in early scientific racism, perhaps because it ignores the trajectory of particular questions of science. Voltaire, David Hume, Prichard are all omitted, despite important roles in the question of polygenism.
 * These are the kinds of things I had in mind when I suggested my changes. As the new guy, I obviously played no part in creating the material that is here, and so I'm ignorant of the care and compromise that went into the current article. So I expect that people who were more involved will have better ideas than mine on how to improve it.
 * By the way, for people who looked at my sandbox earlier, i've added citations. JBradleyChen (talk) 04:44, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, regarding process, my draft is based on the sources I cite, which I consulted before / while drafting the change. I thought this was obvious, but will not take that for granted in the future.
 * My review of sources was motivated by the opportunities I see to improve in the article, which I outline above. JBradleyChen (talk) 16:46, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not sensing a lot of support for these changes so I will abandon. I did see some support for a brief section on Etymology so I have left a draft of that in my sandbox for feedback. JBradleyChen (talk) 13:40, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I have no objection in principle to a brief section on etymology, but it would help a lot if you had sources that directly talk about the etymology. Doing your own research into when the term first appeared runs up against WP:NOR. As I recall, neither the Saini book nor the Jackson-Weidman book talk about the origin of the term scientific racism, but there might be other secondary sources that do. The version in your sandbox does not have sources that give the etymology. Also, your source [1] uses the term pseudo-scientific racism rather than scientific racism, and sources [2] and [3] put the word scientific in scientific racism in scare-quotes, which is not quite the same. NightHeron (talk) 15:19, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Regarding WP:NOR, I cite facts, so the issue is not obvious to me. Is the problem calling it "Etymology"? I could instead use "History of Usage" or something like that. Would that be better?
 * What would the basis for not treating "scientific" racism and scientific racism as equivalent? It seems wrong to ignore the former, as both seem common. See for example Mills 2017. What would be the basis for failing to inform a reader of the prior usage of "pseudo-scientific racism"?
 * I have looked and have not found any resources on the etymology of "scientific racism". I do not have access to the OED. Merriam-Webster and Cambridge dictionaries do not have entires for "scientific racism". Does that indicate doubt among scholars regarding its use as a term of art? JBradleyChen (talk) 15:43, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, it seems to me that we don't really know what the etymology of the term is. Unless we know that, based on reliable sources, we can't have a section on etymology. NightHeron (talk) 15:51, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Makes sense. I've dropped the section heading entirely. I propose to add the text at the end of the last section. Any further feedback? JBradleyChen (talk) 17:45, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
 * By the way @NightHeron I apologize if I am trying your patience through my inexperience. I'm trying to learn the norms as much as anything. I proposed this addition because it's a part of what I was looking for when I read this article, but I do not want to violate WP norms. JBradleyChen (talk) 18:08, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
 * No need to apologize; you're not "trying my patience". As far as the text in your sandbox is concerned, I don't see the value of citing some more-or-less random instances of early use of terms similar to scientific racism. As far as WP:NOR is concerned, it's a fact that those authors said the things you cite, but it's only your belief, unsupported by sources, that those citations played some sort of notable role in the history of scientific racism. So there would likely be objections to adding that text based on WP:NOR and WP:UNDUE. NightHeron (talk) 19:06, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay; I think this is making sense. I'm not thrilled with this particular information void, but it does make sense that it may not be Wikipedia's role to fill it. I would like to understand more about how information voids figure in the Wikipedia strategy and culture, although this is not the best locale to discuss that. JBradleyChen (talk) 19:16, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
 * @JBradleyChen tagged me in because of a related discussion we had at Talk:Immanuel_Kant, and so I'll add my two cents as someone with general knowledge of intellectual history, but no special knowledge of this subject.
 * In general, I find the article to be well-sourced and objective.
 * It would be great if there were some broadly accepted way to group these thinkers that would minimize the tedium of cataloguing them individually. But that would be a huge project requiring (I assume) expert knowledge.
 * The lead makes it abundantly clear that scientific racism, the topic of the article, has been discredited and is a pseudoscience. I agree with @Wracking that there's no reason to add material about how great science is more generally.
 * A change I do support is the addition of a short section discussing the origin of the (admittedly unfortunate) term and how it contrasts with other species (so to speak!) of racism, and also, if it makes sense to do so, how it stands with respect to racism in general.
 * As suggested by @LlywelynII, a section at the end sourced to descriptions of the scientific research that specifically discredited scientific racism makes sense and would be a welcome contribution to the article.
 * Finally, if there is compelling evidence that any of these researchers were acting in bad faith, I agree that this should be clearly stated—or possibly the figure should simply be removed from the article, given that the cynical appropriation of scientific language for ideological purposes is the opposite of the scientific search for truth. The default assumption, though, should be of good faith efforts to advance anthropology and related disciplines. Science is just a messy business, and its history is full of dead ends.
 * Cheers, Patrick J. Welsh (talk) 21:47, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Racism in South Africa
how did pseudo scientic theories influence policies in South Africa 102.249.3.204 (talk) 20:26, 16 May 2023 (UTC)