Talk:Sodium/Archive 1

Article changed over to Wikipedia:WikiProject Elements format by maveric149. Elementbox converted 19:18, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) by Femto. Previous revision was that of 05:04, 22 Jun 2005

Information Sources

Some of the text in this entry was rewritten from Los Alamos National Laboratory - Sodium. Other information was obtained from the sources listed on the main page but was reformatted and converted into SI units.

Talk

I don't see much reason to keep Temp around; does anyone else? -- LDC

In this case I would say no -- I worked on it 3 hours straight instead of my usual habit of speading the work over a few days. If it bugs you that it exists then delete it. --mav

I just wanted to make sure there wasn't some reason to keep it that I hadn't thought of. If no one objects for a while, I will.

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Anything on sodium as it relates to nutrition? Actually, there are many things on sodium that relate to nutrition. One example is your soda drink. sodium is used in cooking items in both salt and baking soda. Most nutrional values of sodium always contain sodium used as a mixture. Sodium is used in medicine, the compound that is used in medicine is nitrous oxide, which it is also widely used as an anesthetic during surgery, in which it is injected into the patient to produce unconsciousness for 1 to 3 minutes, only because nitrous oxide has a property to escape the blood stream fast.

Nitrous oxide has nothing to do with sodium. N2O is nitrogen compound and it is a GAS and it is not injected. Dr Vyas

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In the formula for a hydrate, I don't think a subscript asterisk is the proper symbol between the compound and its water component. Isn't the proper symbol a centered dot, like the · you get with ·? Or some more distinctive bullet symbol? Furthermore, I think that using a wiki link on just that symbol is silly, making it look like the symbol is an underlined subscript asterisk. Wouldn't following the formula with something like "(see [[hydrate]])" make more sense? Gene Nygaard 00:44, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It sure would make a lot more sense. By the way, to be more HTML 4.0 compatible, you should use • instead of ·.

Sodium (English, soda) has long been recognized in compounds...

This is clumsy. Any better offers? Rich Farmbrough 17:39, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Cost?

Well back then the cost was lower, for certain types of Sodium, but what is the price of Pure, 100%, Sodium today? exaclty my question what is the cost today i mean i really dont care what it was "back then" sorry but i dont.

Oxidation number

Isn't the oxidation number of sodium +1? not +2?

Yes, it is. Duly edited. Pedriana 20:42, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

Values

someone has put thermal expansion in and in some others too, yet you have not put the starting temp or size of sample or method used (24.221.73.69)

Values are as referenced by chemical elements data references. Thermal expansion of an isotropic solid is a material property that is adequately described by a single coefficient for a given temperature. The coefficient of linear thermal expansion α=71 µm/(m·K) is a mathematical factor that is independent of the size of sample. Femto 1 July 2005 10:05 (UTC)

Page looks horrible in IE

File:Napage.jpg

Darrien, this is what the page looks like in IE with normal settings now: not good..

Fixed for now? Since this isn't the only Wikipedia article with an infobox, do we have technical guidelines for the left-aligned-image-flow-around issue? Femto 4 July 2005 11:46 (UTC)

Minerals of sodium

Sodium chloride, better known as common salt, is the most common compound of sodium, but sodium occurs in many other minerals, such as amphibole, cryolite, halite, soda niter and zeolite

This sentence is a bit misleading since halite is the mineral form of NaCl. Also this sentence implies that NaCl is a mineral on its own. Fornadan (t) 22:26, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

isn't the laten name for sodium nadium? how is it spelled anyway?

The Latin name for sodium is natrium.

As is the international name, making it very common, so it's best to remember it too KrisCrash (talk) 17:11, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Insoluble salts?

Are there any (practically) insoluble salts of sodium? If not, why not? --njh 07:32, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe all group 1 salts are soluble

Sodium Metaphosphate is insoluble, but is soluble in mineral acids, Potassium Chloride or Ammonium Chloride solution. As far as other group 1 elements are concerned; Potassium Chlorate and Potassium Perchlorate have low solubility...

From jtbaker.com and my Handbook of Chemistry by Lange the solubilties are:

Potassium Chlorate 3.3g/100g water at 0°, 7g at 20°C, 57g at 100°C

Potassium Perchlorate 0.75g/100g water at 0°, 1.5g at 21°C, 21.8g at 100°C Scot.parker 20:11, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

NaCl as heat transfer?

"NaCl, a compound of sodium ions and chloride ions, is an important heat transfer material." Is this true? It seems that it wouldn't conduct heat very well unless it was molten, which takes about 800˚C. Perhaps NaCl is being confused with sodium metal. Can anyone confirm this?

Removed until sourced. Femto 10:55, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Even if correct, it seems the food industry use is far more important than it's heat transfer characteristics. Stifynsemons 13:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

More commonly Na or Na/K is used for heat transfer in car valves and nuclear reactors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ajhalls (talk • contribs) 15:42, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Use of sodium in organic chemistry

"Sodium in its metallic form is an essential component in the making of esters and in the manufacture of organic compounds."

This is completely incorrect. Sodium (or its alloys) may be used as reducing agents or catalysts, but they are not "essential" in making organic compounds. Esters are made by reacting an alcohol with and acid in the presence of a strong acid; there is no sodium, metallic or as a compound, in esters, nor is it used in their production process. Until someone can come up with a good summary of the use of sodium in organic chemistry, I am removing this sentence. --71.227.190.111 00:52, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Not too familar with Wikipedia

But the yellow sodium light emitted from the telescope in the image from the SOR, Starfire Optical Range, is not from a dye laser. I tried to edit the page, it seemed to work at work, but at home I don't see the same edits.

The light source is a FASOR, which stands for Frequency Addition Source of Optical Radiation. It is two single mode, single frequency IR solid state lasers, 1.064 and 1.319 microns that are sum frequency mixed in an LBO crystal within a doubly resonant cavity.

It seems to be okay for me. Try dumping your .tmp files. Your system may be giving you a photo with an old caption. I've been fooled that way before. SBHarris 07:11, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Repetitive

In the first paragraph the description of sodium is repeated in the second paragragh (now under Notable charactaristics). Also the word 'metal' seems to be overly repeated. For example under 'Notable charactaristics' it says, "Like the other alkali metals, sodium metal is a soft, light-weight, silvery white, reactive metal. Well the rest of the paragragh goes on like that. I would leave the word metal in the expression, 'alkali metal' and remove it every where else in the paragraph. For example from the first paragragh...

Sodium is a chemical element that has been assigned the symbol Na (Natrium in Latin) and the atomic number 11. Sodium is a soft, silvery, very reactive element and is a member of the alkali metals within ‘group 1’ (formally known as ‘group IA’) of the periodic table. Sodium readily oxidizes in air necessitating storage in an inert environment.

Notable Characteristics

Compared with the other alkali metals, sodium is generally more reactive than lithium but less so than potassium in accordance with periodic law; for example, their reaction in water, chlorine gas, etc. Owing to it’s extreme reactivity it is found in nature only as a compound and never as the free element. It burns in air producing sodium oxide and/or sodium peroxide but will not form the nitride as does lithium. The density of Sodium is less than that of water with which it reacts exothermically (produces heat). Small pea sized pieces will swim around the surface of water until they are consumed by it whereas large pieces will explode. The reaction with water produces very caustic sodium hydroxide and highly flammable hydrogen gas. In any case metallic sodium is considered an extreme hazard and will cause severe skin and eye injury if suitable precautions are not observed.

Scot.parker 18:13, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

All sodium salts without exception are soluble in water?

This statement is not true and needs to be removed.

• How is it not true? Am I missing something here? Taekwondo_Tiger_Girl_22 04:50, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, go back and read the article.Scot.parker 14:05, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Just Wondering...

If you wanted to show your friends how reactive sodium really is, how much is a safe amount to use? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Frogger22 (talk • contribs) 04:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

About the size of your thumb into a bucket of water will work. It will fizz for about 5 seconds then explode. Be careful because it will give off a cloud of Sodium Hydroxide.

No, far too big, thumb-sized would be a dangerous, explosive quantity. The reaction is highly unpredictable because it is influenced by shaping and particle movement and the explosive reaction does not scale smoothly with size. People have lost their eyes and gotten very serious chemical burns playing with sodium and water. Don't try it at all. The biggest sized shred of sodium I've ever seen or heard about being safely dropped into water is smaller than pea-sized and everyone, always, wears eye protection. All told, this is not the place to talk about doing this and I say, it's dangerous, don't do it. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:24, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it cool that when you eat salt, that you are really eating two harmful substances, sodium and chlorine? Ha! I never thought about that until a few days ago... Taekwondo_Tiger_Girl_22

I disagree with Gwen. I have done demonstrations many many times with pieces up to 5 pounds. See photo for some of my work. Working with sodium involves practice, and proper safety procedures. Guns and knives are similar items in that when used with stupidity or just ignorance people can get hurt or killed. You can however do fairly large ones safely, my personal favorite is about 1 ounce with water added from 30-40 feet away with a hose. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Large_Sodium_Explosion.jpg

Reactivity Li > Na > K

I'm highly suspicious of this sentence:

"Compared with the other alkali metals, sodium is generally more reactive than lithium and less so than potassium,"

My understanding is that reactivity decreases as you go down the periodic table.

As I recall, the ionization energy of Li is greater than Na which is greater than K, but not being a chemist, somebody more knowledgeable than me should verify this.

I think the sentence ought to read: "Compared with the other alkali metals, sodium is generally less reactive than lithium and more so than potassium," Clemwang 23:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Reactivity of the halogens decreases as you go down the periodic table, but reactivity of the alkali metals increases. The original statement is generally correct. Look up Cesium and you will see what I mean. (124.170.6.214 (talk) 08:57, 9 February 2012 (UTC))

I'm sure I can find a reference for the statement tonight. When I do, I will include the reference in the text, with rewriting of the sentence as necessary. Karl Hahn (T) (C) 23:08, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I think based on the above section entitled "Repetitive", the sentence was worded about the way I suggested. I think somebody accidently changed the meaning of the sentence without intending to while removing the repetition. I'm going to fix it the way I think is correct (and corresponds to the older edit.

Clemwang 23:11, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The truth about this is more complicated than expected. Reduction potential in aquia are Li=-3.02V, Na=-2.71V, K=-2.92V, Rb=-2.93V, Cs=-2.92. So energy release reacting with water is greatest for Li, least for Na, and in between for the other two. But energy release for direct combination with Cl, Br, or I is Li < Na < K < Rb < Cs. But combination with F is the opposite. So is the formation of M₂O energy. So there is no unified trend. There are also solubility trends between Na and K depending upon the strength of the anion. But there is no way to sum all this up in one or two sentences. So your original suspicion was warranted. I haven't decided what to do about it yet. Karl Hahn (T) (C) 02:57, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Emission Spectrum

Why is there no information on the emission spectrum of Na? Especially considering sodium's use in astronomy, and, well, anything that uses the "Sodium Line" because it's so obvious and well known... MyOwnLittlWorld 00:06, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

The Spectrum seems wrong to mee too. Compare: http://www.seilnacht.com/versuche/tnlinien.gif —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.79.28.108 (talk) 19:07, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Remove the image for now. Seeking a replacement. Materialscientist (talk) 00:06, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

manufacture of sodium

Since the melting point of sodium hydrogencarbonate(bicarbonate) is 50°C and it will decompose at 60°C, why don't we make sodium by electrolysis when the bicarbonate is melted? This will be cheaper and easier than the method mentioned in the article.Superdvd 11:30, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't know where you got your info about NaHCO₃ melting at 50°C. Try melting it for yourself. All you need is some baking soda, a metal tablespoon, and a mug of hot water to gently heat the spoon. You'll see for yourself how good your info is. Karl Hahn (T) (C) 13:33, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I had got that info from wiki.........but it is now deleted.lolSuperdvd 09:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Atomic Spectrum Lines

I liked this new section up to and including, "This fine structure results from a spin-orbit interaction of the valence electron in the 3p electronic state." After that, the discussion of hyperfine orbital states becomes too arcane for an article like this. There are very few readers who will have a clue what the orbital symbols mean, much less how they result in the splitting of the D lines. An article like this shouldn't be assuming detailed knowledge of quantum physics. Simply explaining that there are subtle effects that further split the D1 and D2 lines into hyperfine lines ought to be sufficient. Karl Hahn (T) (C) 00:47, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Sodium in atmosphere of Mercury

The following section was added, which I have moved here for rewriting and citation. Would this be more helpful in Atmosphere_of_Mercury? Please comment? Gwen Gale (talk) 19:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Sodium Atmospheres

One little known fact is that the planet Mercury has a Sodium atmosphere. This was determined by ground based observations. Apparently there are at least two possible sources for this phenomenon wind sputtering or photodesorption of the surface of this planet. Mercury's sodium atmosphere is dynamic and constantly being replenished. Europa also seems to have an extended sodium atmosphere. Even the Earth's Moon is reported to have a tenuous Sodium Atmosphere.

is it a really good idea to put this information where only hard core wikipedians will have the chance to read and update this? This does need updating and rewriting, mainly by researcher in this hot topic. Placing this out of sight and out of mind is not the way to do this. unsigned comment by User:Kevindavid 14:51, 18 February 2008

Seems like an interesting topic, but it would have to be written more clearly and with sources. --Itub (talk) 15:06, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Erroneous Electronic Configuration??

The Electronic Configuration for Sodium is wrong on the page. It on the RHS of the page in the electronic config. it says: Electron configuration [Ne] 3s1 What has Neon got do with Sodium? It should instead be: 1s2 2s2p6 3s1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.241.48.51 (talk) 09:13, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

It means it has the electron configuration of neon plus 3s1. It is a standard abbreviation. See noble gas#Noble_gas_notation. --Itub (talk) 09:29, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Sodium gamma ray

There is a gamma ray of 511keV emitted by Na 22 as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geoffmthomas (talk • contribs) 10:49, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Isolation with carbon

I've put a in the process for making Sodium metal using carbon, said to have been done in the 1800's. I'd like to see the reference, because that doesn't seem too likely to me, given that, historically, Sir Humphry Davy isolated sodium and other elements with electrolysis. If he could have used carbon, wouldn't he have tried it that way first?64.252.67.170 (talk) 15:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

It is a bit surprising, given that general chemistry textbooks and teachers tend to drill into our brains the idea that nearly nothing reduces sodium compounds except electricity. But it is true, according to Kirk-Othmer's Encyclopedia of Chemical Technology. I don't know the exact conditions of this process, but it is possible that they weren't available to Davy or that he just didn't think of it. Heating to 1100 degrees Celsius is a bit extreme, and presumably this must be done under vacuum or inert atmosphere, because otherwise the sodium would get re-oxidized by air. --Itub (talk) 12:33, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Hey thanks, I will have to check that reference sometime.64.252.67.170 (talk) 15:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Carbon is being used as the electrode. It gets slowly eaten away by the process, which is typically termed a Down's Cell http://wps.prenhall.com/wps/media/objects/602/616516/Media_Assets/Chapter18/Text_Images/FG18_16.JPG) While salt melts at 801 degrees, there is never a reason to go much higher, however, there are ways to drop this down a few hundred degrees or more to make it simpler. Having personally made a small scale cell, I know a little about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.223.63.4 (talk) 15:29, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Regarding "Most people consume far more sodium than is physiologically needed."

Blanket statement? Plus I think this may apply mostly to Western culture. Japanese food in particular tends to be much less salty, though I don't have a source for my claim either so I wasn't sure if it was worth editing. Supersack (talk) 08:13, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Chemical Properties!

Flammability: reactivity: Important chemical reactions: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.202.240.117 (talk) 15:29, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Biology

Anybody mind if I spit out the biological role? There's a lot more to say about it, but it's hard to expand in its current location. --Arcadian (talk) 15:14, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Ahem, I noticed you deleted the material http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sodium&diff=286845700&oldid=286659666, but where did you PUT it? "Split out" in order to expand doesn't mean "delete and leave no summary behind." I didn't notice all the missing stuff until trying to fill in the big gap. I kept thinking: "didn't I do all this before...?" I finally looked on the web and found that somebody had won a contest for best answers on a sodium related question by referring to the biology of sodium section here--- now gone. Rummaging around, I see you "took" it. SBHarris 07:18, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Conflict of interest

The author of the papers is the author of the section in the wikipedia article:

Recently, it was predicted and then (in the same work) verified that at pressures arouns 200 GPa sodium becomes a transparent insulator . Furthermore, the band gap is predicted to increase with pressure (from ~2 eV at 200 GPa to over 6 eV at 600 GPa) ., suggesting that at pressures above 300 GPa sodium will be colorless and transparent like window glass. Transparent sodium can be described as an "electride" - i.e. an ordered "compound" formed by ionic cores and strongly localized interstitial electron pairs.

We have to decide If this is notable enough to keep.--Stone (talk) 20:18, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Transparent metal??

This is an extremely significant piece of research. It suggests that other compounds may change from opaque to transparent, or from insulators to conductors, when extreme pressures alter their crystal structures. I am going to add it to the article (with another reference), so readers can be alerted of this research and can follow up if they desire.Raymondwinn (talk) 17:34, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

A discussion is due before questioning this well-thought decision (to move that material out of the article). That high pressure changes virtually any material from insulator to conductor and otherwise is a well known fact in high pressure research. In fact, high-pressure data and structures are omitted from most summaries of material properties, simply because they are too exotic and far from usual applications. Just to give you and example, every material has at least several high-pressure phases, which are only mentioned if they are metastable (diamond, c-BN, etc.), i.e. that releasing the pressure preserves the new phase. This is not the case here. Materialscientist (talk) 22:52, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I have moved the whole section "Phase behavior under pressure" (below) out of the article because it is not ready to go there: (i) not in history; (ii) phrasing "a possible explanation ..." or "several odd structures" does not sound right for an encyclopedia (iii) "One free electron" is called "free" because it is spread all over the solid. Saying that it can be pushed to 10 core (i.e. well localized) electrons does not sound reasonable. (iv) "At around 100 GPa, sodium will melt at near room temperature .." - that was not a room temperature sodium, but another, rather complex crystalline phase. Another huge question mark there is that there was no "melting" per se. The authors saw that sodium lost order upon compression. This could well be amorphization (they should have cooled the cell to demonstrate that something is crystallizing upon freezing) Materialscientist (talk) 00:02, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Is this just about sodium? A general property demonstrated on one element isn't about sodium per se. --Vuo (talk) 19:00, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Phase behavior under pressure (moved from the article)

Under extreme pressure, sodium departs from common melting behavior. Most materials require higher temperatures to melt under pressure than they do at normal atmospheric pressure. This is because they expand on melting due to looser molecular packing in the liquid, and thus pressure forces equilibrium in the direction of the denser solid phase.

At a pressure of 30 GPa (300,000 times sea level atmospheric pressure), the melting temperature of sodium begins to drop. At around 100 GPa, sodium will melt at near room temperature. A possible explanation for the aberrant behavior of sodium is that this element has one free electron that is pushed closer to the other 10 electrons when placed under pressure, forcing interactions that are not normally present. While under pressure, solid sodium assumes several odd crystal structures suggesting that the liquid might have unusual properties such as superconduction or superfluidity.

At a pressure of 200 GPa (2,000,000 times sea level atmospheric pressure), sodium first turns black and then becomes transparent, and it loses its ability to transmit electricity. Its usual crystalline structure (body-centered cubic packing) is altered into a six-coordinate, highly-distorted bouble-hexagonal close-packed structure.

"Natrium" used in Japanese food products?

Received gifts of Japanese instant soups. Instead having 500 - 1000mg of "salt", one has, for example 2.5g of "natrium" (in Japanese language). I wonder if there is any difference health-wise in the two dietary uses of Na. Would love to hear from those who know. 98.248.198.214 (talk) 18:57, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Just a thought: Japanese pay much attention to accuracy. I imagine they analyzed the product for Na content (rather than just wrote the amount of salt that was put in) and therefore honestly specified the measured value. Don't know the actual procedure though. Materialscientist (talk) 00:45, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

This would be the "dietary sodium" content. Gwen Gale (talk) 00:57, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Intake Recommendations

The 500mg per day recommendation is outdated. Please see government of Canada website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.226.147.128 (talk) 01:24, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Updated, thank you. Materialscientist (talk) 01:50, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

All of the hyperlinks - now shown in RED - in this paragraph are an absurdity

All of the hyperlinks - now shown in RED in the article - in this paragraph are an absurdity:

"There are other insoluble sodium salts such as sodium bismuthate NaBiO3, sodium octamolybdate Na2Mo8O25• 4H2O, sodium thioplatinate Na4Pt3S6, abd sodium uranate Na2UO4. Sodium meta-antimonate's 2NaSbO3•7H2O solubility is 0.3 g/L as is the pyro form Na2H2Sb2O7•H2O of this salt. Sodium metaphosphate NaPO3 has a soluble and an insoluble form."

They are absurdities because those chemical compounds are not important, they are neither useful nor common, and what they are is laboratory curiosities. They do not currently have articles of their own in the Wikipedia -- and nor do they need articles about them.

There are "billions & billions" of chemical compounds, and the only ones that need Wikipedia articles are the common ones, the useful ones, and the important ones (especially in life). Thus adenine, uracil, and the other components of DNA and RNA, and the common amino acids are important ones, and they need Wikipedia articles of their own, and articles on such compounds as potassium chloride and trinitrotoluene are important because these are useful compounds.98.81.17.215 (talk) 23:41, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

I think the compounds are there not because they are important, but because they are very unusual (billions and billions of sodium compounds are soluble in water, and only a handful are not). Nevertheless, it may be time for a stand alone WP:list article of Sodium compounds relatively insoluble in water, and a simple link to it in the sodium main article. SBHarris 04:25, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

nuclear reactor cooling

I strongly disagree with the wording of this paragraph. "Other uses" is not the place to talk about accidents or undocumented nuclear safety. I would just mention some examples of sodium cooled reactors like Monju (where the mentioned accident happened) in Japan or Phénix and Superphénix in France. --Zakatan (talk) 12:46, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Occurences

I changed "different ['different what']" to "different minerals". I also changed "salt" to "halite". Eldin raigmore (talk) 20:48, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

That was because of 19:49, 16 December 2011‎ 66.219.235.208 (talk)‎ (36,866 bytes) (→Occurence: needs clarification, [Sodium] is found in many different, .... (different what?)). Eldin raigmore (talk) 21:00, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Biological role of sodium

There is an error in the section on the biological role of sodium.

It states that the DRI for sodium is 1.5g per day. That is the DRI for those over 50, or with medical conditions such as hypertension. The DRI for the population that doesn't fall into these categories is 2.3g per day. See reference 49

It is also stated that the average American consumes 2.3g of sodium per day. The average amount is actually 3.4g per day. See reference 49 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tgiesler (talk • contribs) 20:47, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Done! Thanks! --Stone (talk) 23:39, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Burning

"Sodium will also burn violently when heated in air." - links as a cite to some sales site for metals. No mention on there that I can see of sodium burning violently in air. Almost just seems like an ad link. Contrast that to: See this link where he has a video of some sodium he ignited w/ the help of a blowtorch. "In this video we used a propane torch to light about 10 grams of it in a bowl, to see how it would burn. It burns sort of like magnesium, but easier to light. Sodium burning in air is very gentle, slow, controlled."

So, yeah, question the fact. Wonder if it is just ad link spam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.50.78.21 (talk • contribs) 15:18, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the claim is questionable and not supported by the cited reference so I have removed the statement. Thanks for catching the problem and reporting it here. If you would like to add a different statement based on the theodoregray.com reference, please feel free to do so. -- Ed (Edgar181) 15:18, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Cool. Thanks. As for adding references. Well, this is a semi-protected article, sooo, would have to register which, I'm disinclined to do, frankly. I like the fact that wikipedia allows anyone to edit it, and apart from occasional pain in attempting to correct a misleading image or two (there's still one or two of those I made little progress in), I'll just stick w/ my boring old IP. Feel free to add the cite to Theodore's site yourself tho :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.50.78.21 (talk) 18:09, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Clarification

Current text on physical properties:

Sodium at standard temperature and pressure is a soft metal that can be readily cut with a knife and is a good conductor of electricity. Freshly exposed, sodium has a bright, silvery luster that rapidly tarnishes, forming a white coating of sodium hydroxide and sodium carbonate. These properties[which?] change at elevated pressures: at 1.5 Mbar, the color[clarification needed] changes to black, then to red transparent at 1.9 Mbar, and finally clear transparent at 3 Mbar. All of these allotropes are insulators and electrides.[3]

The properties that change with pressure are the ones in the first sentence, not the second. Also, tarnishing in air is a chemical property, not a physical property. I suggest the following revision:

Sodium at standard temperature and pressure is a soft, silvery metal that can be readily cut with a knife, and is a good conductor of electricity. These properties change dramatically at elevated pressures: at 1.5 Mbar, the color changes from silvery metallic to black; at 1.9 Mbar the material becomes transparent, with a red color; and at 3 Mbar sodium is a clear and transparent solid. All of these high-pressure allotropes are insulators and electrides.[3]

When freshly cut, sodium has a bright, silvery luster. If exposed to air, the surface rapidly tarnishes, darkening at first and then forming a white coating of sodium hydroxide and sodium carbonate.

68.173.52.158 (talk) 11:42, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I have changed the text as you proposed, but moved the second paragraph to chemical properties. Materialscientist (talk) 11:55, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Etymology of symbol Na

No such word as natrium in Latin but nitrum exists used in reference to soda and natron, the latter ultimately from the Greek nitron. Thus the symbol Na more likely to have an association with natron else it would have been Ni, if nickel had not claimed it first!

Apparently the misattribution dates back to the 1930s according to John Emsley, author of Nature's Building Blocks where he had relied on more recent source material. Latin was not unknown to scholars and scientists in the mid 20th century so why the writers of texts did not check their dictionaries is beyond me - it was my first action on seeing natrium which seemed a most unlikely construction.

As this would not be a simple edit, I leave it to the writer of the article on how best to tackle such a deeply entrenched error.

Chrysippo (talk) 09:17, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Max burning temp, molar mass

I removed from infobox sodium: |Max burning temp=1003 K and |molar mass=22.9898g/mol. Not used in infobox element (do not show). -DePiep (talk) 15:36, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Volume of UL of NaCl

I've added 2.7 ml of NaCl as the volume-equivalent of 2.3g of Na (UL), and changed this to half a US teaspoon (was 1 teaspoon). 1g Na->NaCl is (58.443/23)g = 2.541g, NaCl density is 2.16 g/ml. CS Miller (talk) 12:46, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Minimum daily nutritional requirements

The section of this article that talks about recommended sodium intake says that adult humans require a minimum of 500mg daily sodium. However, in the source document cited to support this claim, it says, "Although the exact minimum requirements of sodium are not known, [...] the estimated minimum requirements for sodium" are 500mg for adults 18+. So, there is expressed in the source material considerable doubt about the accuracy of this figure, and the Wikipedia article does not include this, leading readers to believe, possibly erroneously and dangerously so, that the science is firm and reliable when it appears, judging by the source material at least, not to be.

As people learn about the dangers of a high-sodium diet and begin weaning themselves off of sodium, it will become increasingly vital for people to know what the recommended daily minimum intake of sodium actually is, and whether or not the science of sodium intake is conclusive. I'm hoping then that others more knowledgeable than I will research this subject more thoroughly and provide Wikipedia users with more accurate and better sourced information.

Thank you

67.197.139.156 (talk) 03:21, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Commercial Production Section error

From the article: "Downs Cell in which the NaCl is mixed with calcium chloride to lower the melting point below 700 °C. As calcium is less electropositive than sodium, no calcium will be formed at the anode. This method is less expensive than the previous Castner process of electrolyzing sodium hydroxide."

Two problems - 1. Reactive metal production is at the cathode, not the anode. Chlorine is produced on the anode. 2. Calcium is not the thermodynamically favored product; however, it is still produced (at the cathode). This requires a post production filtration and will result in trace calcium impurity in the finished sodium product.

A more correct statement for the article is: "Downs Cell in which the NaCl is mixed with calcium chloride to lower the melting point below 700 °C. As calcium is less electropositive than sodium, less calcium will be co-produced at the cathode. Despite post production filtration to reduce the calcium concentration to commercially acceptable level, this method is less expensive than the previous Castner process of electrolyzing sodium hydroxide." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkmatterguy (talk • contribs) 02:23, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

How about using Standard electrode potential (data page) to explain that Ca2+ is less likely to be reduced than Na+ to metal ? -- Mountainninja (talk) 20:34, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Sodium-collecting butterflies

Is that going to get included in the article? See this link, which even gives three papers to reference. Double sharp (talk) 03:57, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

sodium  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.233.144.58 (talk) 19:20, 28 March 2016 (UTC) 

Sodium laser guide star

There's a line under Free element mentioning laser guide stars that, as of a recent edit by 50.64.119.38, links Sodium lasers to Laser#Semiconductor lasers:

 Sodium lasers emitting light at the D line are used to create artificial laser guide stars that assist in the adaptive optics for land-based visible light telescopes.

I'm afraid this line may cause confusion. The last paragraph of the section pointed to does mention sodium gas lasers (not a type of semiconductor laser - that's just some sort of problem at the target page). But the cited sources talk about solid-state lasers (not necessarily semiconductor lasers) tuned to produce the sodium D line to excite atmospheric sodium atoms. This is not really completely well-explained at Laser guide star, either.

I don't know how to fully resolve the several issues here, but what I propose is undoing the link and rewording slightly as:

 Lasers emitting light at the sodium D line are used to create artificial laser guide stars that assist in the adaptive optics for land-based visible light telescopes.

My proposed working may avoid giving the impression that sodium vapor lasers are used for this application, but it places the explanatory burden on the Laser guide star article. — jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 08:48, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

 Done Thank you! Double sharp (talk) 09:44, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Reaction with ice

Can sodium react with ice? If yes, what is the reaction rate constant?--5.15.20.210 (talk) 20:51, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Not appreciably. You have to go down to caesium (and I think also rubidium) in the alkali metal column before it will happen at such low temperatures. However, you should not conclude from this that storing sodium on ice is a good idea, because once the ice melts, you're in trouble. Double sharp (talk) 13:43, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Sodium/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Double sharp (talk · contribs) 09:45, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

I might as well give this a try! Double sharp (talk) 09:45, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Physical

• This article is a little too focused on "what" and not enough on "why". We read that Na is a soft metal: cool, but why? We hear that it is not very dense, but why? We hear that it conducts heat and electricity well, but why? (They all have the same answer, going back to the [Ne]3s¹ electron configuration; but this should be in there.)

  I mentioned it is because it has only one valence electron and you expanded by saying it results in weak metallic bond. I think this issue is resolved. Fuortu (talk) 23:17, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

  Yes, that's fine. Double sharp (talk) 05:26, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

• Similarly it strikes me that we should allot more explanation and text to why Na has the properties it does at STP. It's OK to talk about the high-pressure work, but we should probably explain the standard-conditions properties first.

  I added more details about the properties at STP. Do you think it still needs more discussion? Fuortu (talk) 21:57, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

  It's OK now. Double sharp (talk) 03:57, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

• Can we have a more reliable source for the colour of Na gas? The current one is I suppose acceptable given its provenance, but if we can do better, I'd strongly prefer that.

  I couldn't find a reliable source, so I changed the information and added a reliable source. Fuortu (talk) 14:44, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

  Are you sure that's what is meant by the source? From what I read, yellow is the 3s¹–3p¹ doublet absorption line (which would tend to strengthen the idea that it is violet in the gaseous state, since violet is the complement of yellow). In that case, this is stated already in the next paragraph. Double sharp (talk) 15:20, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

  It says that sodium gives yellow colour after heating and colour doesn't change even after giving more heat. I removed it because it is discussed in next paragraph. Is that alright? Fuortu (talk) 15:51, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

  That's fine. Double sharp (talk) 01:59, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

• One major omission is atomic properties – surely we need to have something about the first ionisation energy and electropositivity?

   Done Fuortu (talk) 20:03, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

  Thank you! Double sharp (talk) 01:59, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

• Melting and boiling points? Preferably in the context of the trend down group 1?

  I think it's  Done, please tell me if I need to add more about it. Fuortu (talk) 10:49, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

  I've added a little more myself, so I think it's OK now. Double sharp (talk) 11:58, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

  Thanks Fuortu (talk) 12:02, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Chemistry

• Another thing I notice in this article is a tendency to give lots of facts and not show how they all come from a few basic principles. Shouldn't we mention how Na chemistry is mostly just that of Na⁺ (even in organosodium compounds)?

  I added that sodium's most common oxidation state is +1. We also explained why in previous paragraph. I think this issue is addressed. Fuortu (talk) 07:32, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

  OK. Double sharp (talk) 08:36, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

• Shouldn't we discuss the oxides together with the salts? I get that they're not technically salts, but they are ionic compounds as well following the same principles.

  Yes, I moved some discussion about oxides to "salts" and now they both are in one section. Fuortu (talk) 22:01, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

  OK. Double sharp (talk) 08:36, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

• Isn't the last paragraph of "salts" more about applications?

  Moved it to appropriate section. Fuortu (talk) 12:38, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

  Great! ^_^ Double sharp (talk) 12:46, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

• No coordination chemistry? We mention the crown-ether complex, yes, but there is enough to fill a section. (See Greenwood & Earnshaw)

  I think we have a reasonable amount now; it's difficult to say any more without having to talk about K, Rb, and Cs as well. Double sharp (talk) 13:23, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

• One other thing that is not talked about is intermetallic compounds, like the alloys with K, Au, and Hg

  I added a section about intermetallic compounds. Thoughts? Fuortu (talk) 16:15, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

  OK, that works. Double sharp (talk) 02:17, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

Commercial production

• End of penultimate paragraph is unreferenced.

  Added reliable sources. Fuortu (talk) 13:02, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

  OK, thank you! Double sharp (talk) 13:13, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Biological role

• Some explanation of how Na has this role would be welcome.

  I am not sure what exactly we should explain. Can you please let me know? Fuortu (talk) 17:51, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

  From reading on this (as you can see, I am more well-versed in chemistry than in biology...), we only need to add that it is Na⁺ functioning as an electrolyte. Double sharp (talk) 03:35, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

  I mentioned that Na⁺ is important electrolyte in neuron function. I think this addresses the problem. Fuortu (talk) 11:08, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

  Yes, I think that will suffice. Double sharp (talk) 11:32, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

The rest looks all right at first glance. Double sharp (talk) 10:00, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

I would suggest that the organisation be better decided upon – the story of ²³Na is now split between "isotopes" and "occurrence", and I think it fits better in the former. Likewise, if you would like to keep the NaK graph (and I am a little doubtful on that, since it is quite large), I do believe we need a large discussion of intermetallic compounds before it. It is a little jarring IMHO to talk about such a compound when it has not even been mentioned earlier that this sort of thing is a possibility at all. Double sharp (talk) 10:04, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for taking on the review. I'll try to fix the issues you've noted above as soon as possible. Fuortu (talk) 11:39, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

I think ²³Na should be in "occurrence" section because it is created in stars. Fuortu (talk) 17:51, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps so, but then it's oddly split from the cosmogenic production of ²²Na and ²⁴Na. So I've moved it up to "isotopes". Double sharp (talk) 03:35, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Ah, I see it now. Thanks Fuortu (talk) 09:46, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

I would also suggest that you take a look at potassium, which is also a famous alkali metal and a GA. It may very well be helpful. Double sharp (talk) 15:28, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Will do, thanks :) Fuortu (talk) 15:51, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

I think this nomination is going very well, so I do believe that I will be awarding GA status at the end of it after my remaining comments are addressed. Double sharp (talk) 09:48, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

I think all the comments have been addressed, so I see no obstacle to passing the review. Thank you for your work on this article, and hope to see you again working on chemical elements! ^_^ Double sharp (talk) 13:23, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Thank you! It has been great to work with you on this article. Again, thanks for reviewing this article. :) Fuortu (talk) 14:51, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

You're welcome! Double sharp (talk) 15:38, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

You folks might want to insert recent data about the fact that the alkali metals DO NOT "explode" due to Hydrogen gas. Professor Phil Mason, for one, and the lads at the Czech Academy of Sciences for another have determined that the explosion effect is a coulombic explosion. The Hydrogen explosion part can be completely suppressed by dropping Na, K or NaK into water with Hexane added to it. Sadly, I would be guilty of the "original research" tag here, but the data is out there.50.247.247.81 (talk) 12:46, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

References

Article suffers badly from TMI

Most of the article is about salts and compounds involving Sodium, but says extremely little about Sodium, the metal, itself.

IF ON SKIN (or hair): Take off immediately all contaminated clothing. It's flammable.

What is Sodium's conductivity? It's state at room temperature? The msds sheet says it's insoluable in water.

And so on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:143:400:547B:24D6:B563:37:C623 (talk) 00:28, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

The melting and boiling points are clearly stated in "characteristics", and you can infer the state from there. (And frankly, given that sodium is a metal, being a solid is expected. It would be noteworthy if it were not, like mercury.) Conductivity (well, thermal conductivity and electrical resistivity) is in the infobox. Meanwhile it is a little strange, if technically true, to say that sodium is insoluble in water: yes, you cannot get Na in aqueous solution (you can in ammonia, as the article notes), but if you put sodium metal in water it tends to explode on you and leave you with a solution of NaOH instead. Double sharp (talk) 04:16, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

add external link

material safety data sheet — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:143:400:547B:24D6:B563:37:C623 (talk) 00:36, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 December 2019

Please add quotation marks before and after the paragraph taken from 'Annalen der Physik und Chemie' in the 'History' 43.231.212.147 (talk) 15:40, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

 Not done per MOS:BLOCKQUOTE. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 15:53, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 January 2020

In the "Biological role in humans" section, make the following change: "the minimum physiological requirement for sodium is 500 milligrams per day." --> "the minimum physiological requirement for sodium is estimated to range from 120 to 500 milligrams per day." In the given source, it clearly states that the exact minimum requirements for sodium is unknown. As well, the minimum requirement varies dependently on age, as given by the table in the source. This is all in page 2. Prof. Fu (talk) 00:00, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

 Done with further edits. Prof. Fu, this is correct, but I appended the fact that it varies with age to better reflect the source, which pretty clearly estimates 500 mg/day over the age of 10. Thank you for bringing this up. ComplexRational (talk) 02:01, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 April 2020

In the introduction sodium is described as the sixth most common element in the Earth's crust. Further down in the 'occurrence' section it is described as the seventh. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth%27s_crust it is the sixth.

Thanks, Damon2k (talk) 22:45, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. First, it's not clear what changes you want to make. Second, one is talking about the crust, and the other seems to be talking about the Earth as a whole, so there's no apparent contradiction anyway. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 23:41, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Semiprotected edit request: Reference 19: Typo and missing title, year.

There is an extra "O" in the last name of the author. It seems to refer to this pair: N.N. GREENWOOD and A. EARNSHAW. Not "GREENWOOOD" with the extra "O"

1. Please change referenced author name from "GREENWOOOD" to "GREENWOOD"

2. Please change referenced work of literature from "" to something, and add the year.

198.232.211.130 (talk) 14:10, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9780750633659/chemistry-of-the-elements — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.232.211.130 (talk • contribs)

Thanks, fixed. The biography section has the "misssing title, year". Christian75 (talk) 14:07, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Makes sense. The book I linked appears to be a match, but it's hard to know without getting access to it behind the paywall. The table of contents lists Chapter 4 - Lithium, Sodium, Potassium, Rubidium, Caesium and Francium on Pages 68-106.

198.232.211.130 (talk) 14:10, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

"Low sodium correlates with higher risk of death" sentence

One study found that people with or without hypertension who excreted less than 3 grams of sodium per day in their urine (and therefore were taking in less than 3 g/d) had a higher risk of death, stroke, or heart attack than those excreting 4 to 5 grams per day. This sentence doesn't seem to logically agree with the rest of the health section. The rest of the health section argues that low sodium consumption is a good thing. So, this is a red flag to me and makes me wonder if we need to examine this sentence and its source more thoroughly. Here's the source. [1] Thoughts? –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:04, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Uses

Single ended self-starting lamps are insulated with a mica disc and contained in a borosilicate glass gas discharge tube (arc tube) and a metal cap. They include the sodium-vapor lamp that is the gas-discharge lamp in street lighting.

Protected edit request on 2 May 2022

There are contrasting statements between the first paragraph 6th line " Sodium is the sixth most abundant element in the Earth's crust and exists in numerous minerals such as feldspars, sodalite, and rock salt (NaCl)." And in the first line of the Occurrence section, "The Earth's crust contains 2.27% sodium, making it the seventh most abundant element on Earth and the fifth most abundant metal, behind aluminium, iron, calcium, and magnesium and ahead of potassium." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdbleegle (talk • contribs) 00:04, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

@Jdbleegle: This protected edit request was malformed, and has been reformatted. Please use {{protected edit}} next time, and do not put templates in section headers. Also remember to sign your comments using ~~~~. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 05:49, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

I think a bit more research is warranted here. "In the crust" and "on earth" are not necessarily synonyms. Depending on the actual quantity of nitrogen in the atmosphere, it could be more abundant than sodium in general, while not being as abundant in the crust. I tried some quick Googling, but couldn't confirm or deny. PianoDan (talk) 23:05, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

I think PianoDan has a sufficient explanation for the contrasting statements, so I'll go ahead and close this out. If after a discussion and/or more research it's found the conflict is without merit, an ER could be re-opened. But it being open at this particular time isn't necessary. Cheers! —Sirdog (talk) 06:00, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Chemistry

What is sodium 49.37.34.55 (talk) 04:51, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? It's the subject of the article! –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 04:53, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

sodium lamp?

should we make a link to the very important sodium lamp? (the well known orange street lights)? Fsikkema (talk) 10:38, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

is alreay in there - scratch that Fsikkema (talk) 10:41, 4 October 2022 (UTC)