Talk:Soups in East Asian culture

Assessment
Assessed as list for WikiProject food and drink. This is more a listing of the various soups found in Asian countries, more than a proper article. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 01:40, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Title
The title doesn't seem accurate because it doesn't include Central Asian, South Asian, Southeast Asian, or West Asian soups. Badagnani 07:05, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Good point, perhaps it should be moved to East Asian soup Sjschen 08:01, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

That or South, southeast, west and central asian soups sections can be stubed out Sjschen 08:02, 28 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The title sounds very vague and this article seems like a collection of soups consumed in East Asia. Do you have any article referring to American soup or European soup in Wiki? Not that I know of. Thus, I think the title should be renamed like "List of soups in East Asia. --Appletrees (talk) 21:19, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

As you can see, it's not just a list, so your title proposal wouldn't be correct, but describes cooking techniques, broth preparation styles, etc. that are held in common. It doesn't include West or South Asia, so perhaps "East and Southeast Asian soups" might be a more specific title. Badagnani (talk) 21:21, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, several lists in Wikipedia have excellent descriptions along with related lists in their main articles. East and Southeast Asian soups sounds also too broad to me. Does it have any cooking techniques, preparation, or ingredients overlapped between the two distinctive areas? --Appletrees (talk) 21:30, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Chinese influence is strong in many parts of Southeast Asia, so there are commonalities. Soups of India and the Middle East are a lot different. Looking at the article again it appears that it's mainly CJK+V, as is often the case, due to Vietnam's strong Chinese influence. Taiwan and Singapore would be similarly strong in Chinese cuisine influence. Badagnani (talk) 21:32, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Korean soups
If this article focuses on East Asian soups, the profusion of Korean soups should also be added. The problem is that some of them are fairly thick, approximating stews. Badagnani 07:05, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

This article sucks
I'm sorry, it really does, and here's why:


 * 1) As many already pointed out, for an article purported to be on "Asian soup", it seems to think the continent only consists of two countries.  Korea, the Philippines, India, Malaysia, Singapore, Vietname, Thailand etc. are underrepresented.
 * 2) It is woefully incomplete and, gives a very misleading picture.  For example, for "Chinese" it gives the impression that there are just three types of soup stock (pork, chicken, and a third which is mysteriously referred to as "Shandong", even though in many regions it may also be more commonly known as "superior stock").  But the fact is soup is more varied then the article suggests.  Check out the article on Peking duck and you'll probably find a mentioning of the duck bones being used to make soup for example.  Fish and seafood too can be used to make soup.  And don't forget the dessert soups like red bean soup which obviously uses different ingredients from the typical savory soup, and indeed does not share the characterization of "umami" mentioned here due to its use for dessert.  (Though to be fair, some of these "soups" aren't actually called soups in Chinese.)  Also, in some types of Chinese cuisines, including Cantonese but likely a few others, soups may be made from scratch without the use of stocks.  The idea being that you pick a combination of ingredients and simmer it for a few hours; essentially the stock is the soup.  It's quite possible in these slow-cook soups for chicken and pork to both be used for example, whereas this article gives the impression that it's either chicken or pork.
 * 3) The "Types" section is not about types of soups, it's more a bunch of soups thrown together, probably the ones the author happens to know or have seen/tasted.  "Egg drop soup" isn't really a "type" of soup any more than "cream of mushroom" is.  And again, the section is rather incomplete if it were to give a picture of the wide variety of soups in Asia (or even just specific countries of Asia).  Perhaps "Examples" might be a better name for that section.
 * 4) I'm also not entirely sure how useful it is to have one article on Asian soup.  No doubt the articles on the respective cuisines of the individual countries and regions will cover the soup from their respective cuisines.  So this article is mainly useful perhaps for pointing out the few commonalities amongst Asian soups.  So I think it's best to not include too much details.  Things like the "Chinese" and "Japanese" section of soup bases are probably better off put into the Chinese and Japanese cuisine articles, though it might be possible to list a few examples of soup stock ingredients here and mention which cuisine uses each ingredient.  It is a good idea to also emphasize the diversity within the same basic type of soup; for example the diversity in broth, noodles and ingredients for Asian soup noodles of different countries.
 * 1) The "Types" section is not about types of soups, it's more a bunch of soups thrown together, probably the ones the author happens to know or have seen/tasted.  "Egg drop soup" isn't really a "type" of soup any more than "cream of mushroom" is.  And again, the section is rather incomplete if it were to give a picture of the wide variety of soups in Asia (or even just specific countries of Asia).  Perhaps "Examples" might be a better name for that section.
 * 2) I'm also not entirely sure how useful it is to have one article on Asian soup.  No doubt the articles on the respective cuisines of the individual countries and regions will cover the soup from their respective cuisines.  So this article is mainly useful perhaps for pointing out the few commonalities amongst Asian soups.  So I think it's best to not include too much details.  Things like the "Chinese" and "Japanese" section of soup bases are probably better off put into the Chinese and Japanese cuisine articles, though it might be possible to list a few examples of soup stock ingredients here and mention which cuisine uses each ingredient.  It is a good idea to also emphasize the diversity within the same basic type of soup; for example the diversity in broth, noodles and ingredients for Asian soup noodles of different countries.
 * 1) I'm also not entirely sure how useful it is to have one article on Asian soup.  No doubt the articles on the respective cuisines of the individual countries and regions will cover the soup from their respective cuisines.  So this article is mainly useful perhaps for pointing out the few commonalities amongst Asian soups.  So I think it's best to not include too much details.  Things like the "Chinese" and "Japanese" section of soup bases are probably better off put into the Chinese and Japanese cuisine articles, though it might be possible to list a few examples of soup stock ingredients here and mention which cuisine uses each ingredient.  It is a good idea to also emphasize the diversity within the same basic type of soup; for example the diversity in broth, noodles and ingredients for Asian soup noodles of different countries.

Maybe I'll take a stab at rewriting this article when I have time. 24.19.185.92 03:56, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Ha ha! I should add a SOFIXIT tag but I'll be lenient (this time). Seriously, though, none of us is perfect and we all can help improve articles others start. There's a limit to all of our knowledge. The article can probably be broken up among the various geographical regions of Asia as described above, and whatever you feel should be added, go ahead. Badagnani 04:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Good points made throughout, and yes the article does need a lot of work. The listings and descriptions are woefully incomplete and some of the section names are misleading, but that's how articles start. When I started this article the only thing I had in mind were savory soups, I've recently put up a sweet soup article at Tong sui, so perhaps a link there would be good idea. I also wanted to scratch out a list of "mother stocks" where most "Asian" soups can be classified as subtypes, sorta in line to what Antonin Carême did with Sauces. One thing I do disagree with your comments is what you say about cooks not using a basic "broth" or "stock". Although some cooks choose to use plain water for the base of their soups, I would say that most professionals would not dare to begin a savory soup without at least some sort of base, be it fish stock, duck stock, or whatnot unless the ingredients themselves are very strong in their umami taste. Sjschen 07:25, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I did not say that they don't use a basic broth or stock, but rather than some types of soups don't need them. Refer to Cantonese_cuisine.  Slow-cook soups don't have to start off with a stock because you are essentially creating the stock in the process of making the soup (which takes several hours in order to extract as much flavor as possible from the ingredients, much like how you'd make a stock from scratch).  Of course, you can cheat a little and use a stock in place of water in most recipes, adjusting cooking time and seasonings accordingly if needed.  And I don't doubt that restaurants will likely use at least a little stock in most of their soups, but then again many also use MSG in their cooking.  Refer for example to soup recipes given in http://www.wingtat.ca/recipe_index.php (available in traditional Chinese and English); some starts off with water and others start off with stock. 24.19.185.92 12:17, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I see what you are saying, I suppose the main difference is whether the stock is made prior to the soup or while the soup is being made. If you wish you can add that information into the intro. It's also sad but true that many restaurants choose to use MSG as actual soup base instead of as a flavour enhancer, still it depends on the establishment and (IMO) no self-respecting restaurant will use only MSG in their stock since it is relatively easy to tell a primarily MSG soup when you taste it. Sjschen 22:09, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Superior stock
Is superior stock the same as Shandong broth? Badagnani (talk) 06:09, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Shandong is probably a variation. Pork skin seems to be commonly used in SS too Sjschen (talk) 17:29, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Can you make the fixes? Umami is your territory. Badagnani (talk) 17:33, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

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Chinese Soups
I disagree with translating the names of the Chinese soups since no other Asian soups have been translated, they have been transliterated. Thus, for the sake of consistency, the names of the Chinese soups will be listed in pinyin.

Doublestuff (talk) 22:20, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

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Desserts
The second paragraph (lead) and the first section of this article contain information that doesn’t match the cited source. Also it’s not an WP:RS. “Sweet soups” are actually desserts. This needs to be fixed. -- Dustfreeworld (talk) 18:14, 9 July 2024 (UTC)