Talk:Space Seed

Untitled
While I have not personally viewed this episode yet, I remember a documentary for the movie Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan mentioning that the dates given in this episode were inconsistant with the rest of the series and was later retconned. I believe this would be worthy of mention in the article.

the name Singh
The implication here seems to be that it is purely Sikh, but that isn't true - two Hindu prime ministers had the surname "Singh" - Charan Singh and Vishwanath Pratap Singh. So did Hari Singh, the last (Hindu) Maharaja of Kashmir. The Wikipedia article on Singh indicates its origins as a Rajput name and that it is more broadly used by warrior castes in northern India, not just by Sikhs. This should be clarified. john k (talk) 19:25, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Lee Cronin Pseudonym
Article says "Coon was later credited as Lee Cronin for his part in the rewriting" of this script, or words to that effect. Credited where? The on-screen credits od SPACE SEED use the name "Gene L. Coon.". The "Lee Cronin" name was not used on-screen until Season 3. Can someone double-check the page in the Solow/Justman book that is cited? I think it must be a misreading. At the very least it should be stated where this pseudonym was used in regard to "Space Seed." Sir Rhosis (talk) 01:17, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I've pinged the author since he has access to the source. If it is egregious, then remove it. Viriditas (talk) 09:26, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I've got the book too so I'll check it tonight, if Miya hasn't gotten to it first. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk ) 16:25, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
 * ...And I just realized it's referencing the one book I don't have, so I cannae' help. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk ) 01:52, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, just spotted this - I'm sitting here on one of those endless call waiting things. As soon as that's done I'll get the book down and double check it. Miyagawa (talk) 18:11, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Ok, double checked and it is right according to the source. It states that "Cary Wilber and Gene Coon (using his pen name Lee Cronin) wrote the episode Space Seed". Miyagawa (talk) 18:20, 9 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Weird. However, we should note in the article that Coon used his real name for the on screen credits of Space Seed, lest viewers think the episode aired with the pseudonym.  Sir Rhosis (talk) 02:07, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * But does it really imply that? If he wrote the episode using a pen name, then he received credit under that name.  That does not imply he received credit under that name on screen.  Am I missing something? Viriditas (talk) 04:19, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm wondering if he received his credit from the Writer's Guild of America under that name but was given screen credit under his real name. There was some interesting interaction with the Guild over this episode, what with Roddenberry trying to claim credit for it and all and although that source doesn't reference that, perhaps this is what happened. Miyagawa (talk) 22:15, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Review notes
I've just run through this and made some general copyedits. I have a few other comments: Overall a cool read. Gotta watch the episode tonight. -- Laser brain  (talk)  22:23, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I feel a little funny about waiting until "Legacy" to fully tell the reader that this episode was the impetus for The Wrath of Khan. It's in the lead, of course, but it just seems like such a major concept. You even allude to it in "Critical reception" before it's written about. I'm not sure how to tackle this, really.
 * There is more stuff to do in "Home media release" but I don't have enough background information. For the 2000 DVD release, why did they put only two episodes on each disc (if I'm reading it correctly)? Was it not part of a box set until 2004? From scanning the cited article, there seems to be more to the remastered series than just the CGI—we could probably expand that whole section with more detail. You might also mention that the remastered episodes are available on streaming services now too. I have it available on Amazon Prime Video, not sure about Netflix and other services.
 * I think Legacy needs to be expanded too, especially in terms of how the concepts from "Space Seed" made their way into other episodes and films. It's OK detail for GA, but if you're angling for FA, I would ask for more here.
 * Thanks for your comments, Andy. I shall look into addressing these. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk ) 17:09, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Selective breading vs genetic engineering
It should be noted that selective breeding is NOT genetic engineering; there are clearly very different things. We don't need citations for the obvious.--BruceGrubb (talk) 17:48, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
 * You do need citations for stated material. The plot section is covered by the episode itself, the rest of the article is not. Miyagawa (talk) 18:07, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear, you wrote: "Another continuity error is "Space Seed" specifically mentions selective breeding as how Khan and his people were created but the movie (and all later references) state that they were the product of genetic engineering (DS9's "Doctor Bashir, I Presume?" expressly states that the genetic engineering was via DNA resequencing which is totally different from selective breeding method stated in "Space Seed")" - while I have no issue with the differences between selective breeding and genetic engineering, the issue I have is that you state it to be a continuity error. That's the part which needs a cite. Otherwise it's original research. Miyagawa (talk) 18:13, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Care to explain how calling selective breeding genetic engineering is not a continuity error when any reasonable textbook states they are totally different things? Thomas Parmalee's 2010 ADBO Genetic Engineering  on pg 23 expressly spells out the differences between the two and ADBO is "a leading educational publisher of books and digital resources for today's school and public libraries."
 * Again we don't need reference for the blinking obvious but I provided one just to end this idiocy. Oh Springer is "a leading source of health care books, textbooks and medical journals for medical professionals, professors and universities.",  Bainbridge spells out the likely reason for the change AND he is already in the article.--BruceGrubb (talk) 18:35, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I've edited the addition so that the formatting for the citation all matches and reworked some of it so that after I added a further cite, the points are covered. You were adding uncited information to a Featured Article; one of the criteria for which is Verifiability. It specifically states "All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution". Regardless of how we got here, thank you for your addition to the article. Miyagawa (talk) 18:47, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Backstory
I don't know how to phrase this in Wikipedia-speak but it is fairly obvious (to me and perhaps other people who have also read early Heinlein) that the backstory of "Space Seed" can be traced to a single page of Beyond This Horizon, the second novel published by Heinlein. In the novel (page 27 of my old paperback copy), two characters talk about the "Great Khan" and "the Second Genetic War". In this future time, Khan practices "genetic engineering" on his homo proteus while we poor humans practice "selective breeding". It could be said that the theme of BTH has to do with whether selective breeding will continue or not.

It is only the name "Khan" and that he practices generic engineering that leads me to suspect that there's a connection. Maybe I'm totally wrong. But perhaps Coon or Roddenberry read Beyond the Horizon in their youth and didn't remember it explicitly when they wrote the screenplay. Or perhaps it was a straight case of plagiarism that they thought they could get away with. I have no proof and certainly not from a reliable source. I just thought it was interesting. --RoyGoldsmith (talk) 03:43, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
 * It is very interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a connection too, although they didn't put it into any proper memos between members of the production team. It might even be the reason why Roddenberry wanted the Nordic version scrapped and chose a Sikh named Khan - because that's a rather random choice for 1960's US television. Miyagawa (talk) 18:32, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
 * In the novel, the "Empire of the Great Khan" has a vaguely oriental feel. (It was written in 1942, right after Pearl Harbor.) Does anyone know of another Star Trek TV episode in which the backstory was written by a famous sci-fi author? (I'm excluding stories where the author went on to write the screenplay, like Larry Niven in TAS111.) --RoyGoldsmith (talk) 21:04, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

genetically engineered or selectively bred?
I see you reverted my edit that replaced selectively bred with genetically enhanced. Khan's page says Khan is one of a group of genetically engineered superhumans On the Timeline of Star Trek page: The Eugenics Wars are described as a global conflict in which the progeny of a human genetic engineering project, most notably Khan Noonien Singh On Star Trek: The Original Series (season 1) page Space Seed's short summary: The genetically engineered passengers, led by war criminal Khan Noonien Singh,

Memory Alpha also says The Enterprise discovers an ancient spaceship carrying genetically enhanced supermen

Selective breeding is not the same as genetic engineering.

Genetic engineering is the direct manipulation of an organism's genes using biotechnology while selective breeding is selecting which specimen should have an offspring together. Kahn and his crew were the result of the former not the later.


 * Here is a transcript of the episode. It refers to selectively breeding a couple times and "controlled genetics" but not "genetic engineering." http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/24.htm EDIT TO ADD: Look further up this talk page--this issue has already been discussed. Sir Rhosis (talk) 20:54, 21 December 2019 (UTC)