Talk:Suicide attack/Archive 4

"Genocide Bombing"
I see no need for this silly propaganda term to be even mentioned. But in any case, I've revised the section to be more skeptical. Whatever the rhetorical claims of groups like Hamas, the occasional murder of a dozen people is less of a threat to the existence of the Jewish people than road accidents or choking on food. In any case "wipe Israel off the map" does not inherently proclaim genocidal intent; Palestine is not currently "on the map" because it has been conquered by Israel but that doesn't mean Israel is committing genocide. Eleland 19:58, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Ours is not to judge the silly terms people use, ours is just to report on their usage. Articles for deletion/Genocide bombing came down pretty clearly on the merge side of the issue, though I did trim the text down a bit when I did the merging. Bryan 23:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Its the very propaganda nature of the terms Genocide bombing and Homacide bombing that make them notable.Hypnosadist 13:46, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Nicholas73 04:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)Nicholas73 This term was not coined in 2002, to my knowledge it was used by Germans to describe the practise of area bombing during WWII. I have defintely known of this term from history books for at least a decade.

Need admin help to remove vandalism
Hello, I found the following text in section 9 and it does not appear in the "edit page" section so I cannot delete it myself. It is very offensive, please see that it is deleted. Thank you!

 The muslims are raising disgusting animals and they should all be caged. The well known saying, "Not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslim," is very true. Do we have to kill all muslims to take care of this problem? The answer is, yes. This problem has caused us to kill the muslim race so we can take care of this issue. 


 * Looks like it was already removed by the time you posted this comment here on talk, perhaps explaining why you couldn't find it in the source text when you tried editing it. Perhaps you were seeing a leftover cached page when viewing the page without logging in. Anyway, it's gone. Bryan Derksen 23:11, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

USMC aviators at Midway
I understand that the Japanese were inspired to use Kamikaze aircraft attacks from the defense of Midway Island by USMC aviators. On 4 June 1942 USMC Squadron VMF-221 flying a mix of andequated Brewster F2A-3s, augmented by a few more modern F4F-3s (about 26 operational airplanes) defended against much larger numbers of Japanese aircraft, including 36 Zero fighters. Over the course of the battle 42 members of Marine Air Group 22 lost their lives. On 5 June 1942, Captain Richard Fleming, a dive-bomber pilot with VMSB-241, flew an obsolete Vindicator into the IJN cruiser Mikuma's aft turret. He was postmostly awarded the Medal of Honor. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rus72 (talk • contribs) 09:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC).

"Self Martyrdom"
Suicide attacks are "Self Martyrdom" and symptomatic of gross religious vanity. Whether in peace or war this fringe of spiritual vanity plagues people of all faiths. It is soulish blackmail ie an unspiritual act performed inorder to draw attention to any person or group whose main grievance is the total lack of interests shown in them otherwise. Children throw tantrums and "Self Martyrs" throw violent tantrums or sulk profusely. It is this spirit of doom, this soulish sulking that cuts off "Self martyrs" from society at large and drives them into isolation and further loneliness where their own self delusions can fester and be manipulated by fanatics. It's promotion is usually found in those whose views are self centered and whose beliefs are unfounded and lacking in any demonstration or proof of teaching, such as those who profess peace but kill anyone their way and/or those whose teachings are unfounded and whose relationship with higher powers can never be demonstrated to others. AP — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.142.45.103 (talk) 09:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Reads Like
...a freshman college essay. Full of opinions, original research and steering of facts and conclusions. Hardly encylcopedic. Did I mention tons of rhetorical statements and questions?
 * Yep, you're right. It's like it was written by a toddler. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.56.241.32 (talk) 15:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC).


 * Hi. Please sign your posts on talk pages. Also, please be bold in making edits. I'm going to take out some editorializing fluff in the intro in just a moment. Also, can somebody point me to the archived peer review? Something seems to be wrong with that template, since the link is a blank page. Tarheelcoxn 10:54, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Suicide mission
I've created Suicide mission as a redirect to this page. However, I'm not sure this is 100% correct. Another use of the term refers to any mission (including those that aren't trying to kill anyone) which involves a high-likelyhood of getting oneself killed e.g. A 17-member Army Reserve platoon...deployed to Iraq is under arrest for refusing a "suicide mission" to deliver fuel.... Ewlyahoocom 17:17, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * This redirection is imho incorrect. A suicide mission can as easily be, for example, a tactical commando action to disrupt enemy logistics, very distinct from an act of terrorism intent on taking lives. Even the term "attack" feels much broader than the phenomena described in the article body, and therefore seems inappropriate. 81.182.216.195 13:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Kamikaze attacks and "terrorism"
Why are kamikaze attacks, which took place as an official tactic of the Imperial Japanese government in the context of a legal state of war against exclusively military targets of the enemy, included in the "terrorism" series at wikipedia? Isn't "terrorism" defined as acts of violence against non-military targets by non-state entities? Someone should make some changes.
 * Mammals are mortal; fish are also mortal; ninjas are mammals, but they're not fish. Likewise: WWII kamikaze attacks were suicide attacks, terrorists use suicide attacks, but WWII kamikaze attacks were not terrorism. What changes would you make? Note that kamikaze is a separate detailed article, and the series box does not appear there. &#8212;Charles P._ (Mirv) 21:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Not all suicide attacks are terrorist (e.g. kamakazes), but today most are, hense the inclusion of this article in the terrorism category. --BoogaLouie 15:51, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Evolutionary Psychology statement
I reverted the sentence Alternatively, Evolutionary Psychology points out that most suicide bombers are single in a polygynous society, making the prospect of 72 virgins waiting for them in heaven most appealing. I can see where the article is coming from, but that's an amateurish attempt to analyze suicide bombers. The biggest problem is that this explanation doesn't work for most cases of suicide bombings. Sri Lanka is a monogamous and non-Islamic culture, yet the LTTE have carried out more terrorist attacks than any single Islamic militant group. Chechnya is Muslim but monogamous, and in both conflicts women are taking part too. So I don't see that the promise of virgins goes very far towards explaining anything. Dchall1 08:28, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Sri Lanka, Chechnya counters other opinions...but who'z got a reliable source as to an acutal count of the demographic of suicide bombers. that should settle any argument. A Hard count will do more for this debate

07/18/2007

Issue with the Rationale subsection
In the section concerning the rationale of a bomber, the two notions that suicide bombers are motivated by religion and that suicide attacks are motivated by foreign occupation are written as though the two are mutually exclusive. But in fact, it makes perfect sense that both are true. Foreign occupation provides the enemy, while religion provides the ease of making a personal decision to sacrifice one's own life for the cause.

Ideally, the section should discuss them both in a manner that does not imply that only one of them can be true. Mbarbier 16:03, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Dependence on media coverage
The article might possibly describe the fact that the success of suicide bombing depends on its coverage by news media. If there were no coverage, there would be little motive for suicide bombing, as it has relatively small effect in a war. Therefore, it works best against Western powers who always report all incidents to their public by means of television, radio, internet, etc. Its optimum use is against a power that has a two–party system. This is because the continual coverage of suicide bombing would tend to weaken the party in power which is conducting the war.Lestrade 16:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)Lestrade


 * Excepting the 9/11 attacks, the most heavily suicide-bombed countries are Sri Lanka and Iraq (that's still true when you exclude suicide attacks on foreign forces). Eleland 19:38, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

non-suicide bombings
what if a bombing is called a suicide bombing and actually was not. how does this change the picture of martyrdom?

the following was taken from US central command website sometime around feb 2007

Driverless, Remote-Controlled Car Bombs 'Guaranteed To Prolong Resistance'

Terrorism: Islam Memo Describes New Remote Control Vehicles Used by Iraqi Resistance

On 1 February, a website posted a description of what it called "the Mujahidin's new technology" as quoted by "an unidentified police source." The posting was about "the new remote-controlled vehicles directed at US and Iraqi forces without suicide drivers, which were tried first in Al-Durah then in Al-Taji districts last week."

The following is a translation of the posting:

"The Iraqi resistance has introduced a new technology in its fight against the American Army and Safawis [Shiites], described by experts as a method guaranteed to prolong the resistance for years to come.

An Islam Memo correspondent in the Iraqi capital, Baghdad, quoted a source in the Iraqi police, which is loyal to the occupation, confirming the information that "the terrorists" have introduced, through their military operations, a new technology of planting explosives in vehicles and exploding them on the American and Iraqi forces. The source, who refused to identify himself, added that the new method has already been implemented, a few days ago, when they controlled vehicles without drivers, for 40 to 50 meters [ 131 to 164 feet], directing them toward a targeted convoy or gathering, without a driver.

The source said that the American forces discovered this technology in two incidents, first in Al-Durah, then in Al-Taji, where they were surprised to see a speeding vehicle that came out of an alley, or the beginning of a road, speeding toward the target without a driver, exploding and causing massive destruction.

Regarding this technology, our correspondent met with professor of "Micatronics" in Baghdad University, engineer "Rafid al-Qaysi", who said that the possibility of possessing this technology requires a specialized engineer who is an expert in remote control equipments and vehicle speeds. Al-Qaysi thought that the resistance is able to acquire such technology, especially with the increasing daily support of Iraqis to the resistance. "Al-Qaysi" added that this technology will not be limited to one [resistance] group without the other, but rather all groups are bound to benefit from it, particularly those groups without suicide brigades such as Al-Qa'ida Organization." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.134.138.190 (talk) 01:35, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Bias in Introduction
"The motivation of recent attack campaigns is a matter of much controversy, with one scholar (Robert Pape), attributing 95% of attacks in recent times to the same strategic goal: the withdrawal of the occupying forces from a disputed territory. "

Having this individual's academic speculation in the intro is POV, though it would be fine in other areas of the article. This is because factually most suicide attacks in Iraq (which is obviously what Robert Pape is talking about) are targeting other Iraqis, not the U.S. military (occupiers that Pape is talking about).

The above quote is written so that it illustrates a generalized viewpoint and presents it as fact. This viewpoint is that the huge number of suicide bombings targeting feuding religious groups, ethnic groups, civilians, and sects in Iraq's civil war have only one purpose: to force the occupiers (U.S.) to leave the country. In other words, despite all of the asymmetric warfare, 95% of the suicide attacks in Iraq are part of a symmetric effort against the U.S. because the U.S. is still occupying Iraq. This kind of statement is very biased, and very low for Wikipedia standards, this stuff belongs in Criticisms and Controversies and Speculation sections of articles. Why? Because it is has almost no directly correlative logic, which is needed if some sort of conclusion is to be drawn up in any Wikipedia article's introduction. This is made especially apparent by the percentage statistic (95%) that seems to be pulled out of a hat.


 * That it was not. Pape did a big huge project hiring native readers to go through local newspapers in Lebanon, Sri Lanka, etc. to figure out who the "martyrs" were, what they had to say, etc. --BoogaLouie 21:32, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Why not go ahead and say that only the remaining 5% of the fighting is civil war, only 5% of violence in Iraq is Sunni versus Shiite versus Kurd? At Robert Pape's rate, the Iraqi civil war wouldn't qualify as a civil war, far from it. Rather it would qualify as a nearly unified Iraqi defense against U.S. occupiers.

The U.S. military is mainly attacked by IEDs, gunmen, and occasionally suicide bombers. But just pasting a random percentage and quote that a single outside person mentioned is not what you put in the introduction of any article. --Exander 04:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Papes 95% come from attacks from 1980 to early 2004. We could add that or change 95% to majority. --BoogaLouie 20:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I changed it to The motivation of recent attack campaigns is a matter of much controversy, with one scholar (Robert Pape), attributing over 90% of attacks prior to the Iraq Civil War to the same strategic goal: the withdrawal of the occupying forces from a disputed territory. --BoogaLouie 21:32, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Major changes
I did some major editting to get rid of the overview section and try to eliminate a lot of repitition. --BoogaLouie 22:38, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. The page was very fragmented in focus; designed by committee and assembled in the dark. Much needed improvement. Binksternet 03:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Non-Mulsim suicide attackers
..What about non-muslim suicide attacks (Columbine, recent mall & church shootings, etc.)? 71.84.249.178 (talk) 22:51, 11 December 2007 (UTC)Brian

Cleanup
I'm going to try and do a major cleanup of this article --BoogaLouie 15:51, 27 June 2007 (UTC) Shut the hell up booger loo. or whatever yuor name is you suck and are too critical Suicide bombers are stupid and ackmed the dead terrorist is the only muslim I trust —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.172.242.122 (talk) 00:06, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Martyrdom operation
I want to move some part of Alleged Islamic motivation to Martyrdom operation.-- Seyyed(t-c) 15:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Hindu Suicide Squads
Can someone please explain to me what is going on here? Also, even if corroborated, per undue weight, some isolated planning cannot be given an exposition of a similar length to forms which entail massive and actual examples. Thx in advance. El_C 10:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Haven't looked into it. I'm acting as a bot reverting edits made by User:Hkelkar. If you don't think its valid for the above reasons, its fine by me. (I'll look into it later. Relata refero (talk) 10:34, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Had a quick look. Thackeray is a very major figure, by far the most powerful person in India's largest city. These particular comments seem to have got a good deal of play at the time, especially as he made them during his speech for the festival of Dussehra. Couple of follow-ups in RSes, including one a few months ago.
 * That being said, the current section is far too long, and has too many quotes. Needs drastic trimming. Relata refero (talk) 10:49, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

A passing mention sounds fine to me, and correctly attributed to the eccentric Bal Thackeray rather than "Hindu suicide squad", such a thing has happened by Nair Chaver warriors though this was an honor system and military tactic unique to Nairs and independent of Hinduism.Nambo (talk) 12:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Usage of "Suicide Bombing" and related terms
"Human-sacrifice" attack? After all, in religion, victim once meant an animal sacrifice or human sacrifice, sacrificed to a god. That of course begs the question, which god? Pawyilee (talk) 14:39, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * On second thought, what about Zombie, a la World War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War by Max Brooks? Pawyilee (talk) 10:44, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

suicide attacks were against the World Trade Center
"The most infamous suicide attacks were against the World Trade Center"


 * Is there a reference that states that these were attacks upon the World Trade Center ? Because the 'other article' frames them as attacks upon the United States. What is the right choice, what reference says what? User:Pedant (talk) 06:20, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Picture
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesdale10/2287741949/

That is an interesting picture which _might_ fit well here. In any case, it seems like it would be a worthwhile picture to have on the Commons if not elsehwere. gren グレン 11:05, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow. Boomshanka (talk) 05:26, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

"Some have cited Samson's destruction of a temple"
"Some have cited Samson's destruction of a Philistine temple (as recounted in the Book of Judges) as an ancient example of mass murder-suicide.[1] But it cannot qualify as such because Samson was directly dependent on God for the use of his enormous strength, as his temporary loss of it a short time earlier shows.)"
 * I intend to remove the second sentence above, as synthetic and to change "some" to "Boris Johnson" -- or to remove both sentences in their entirety. Comments? User:Pedant (talk) 06:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, the 2nd sentence doesn't fit - while i'd be fine with deleting both i think changing the name is reasonable. Boomshanka (talk) 05:24, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I took it out of the lead and put it in history. It doesn't belong in the lead even if it belonged in the story at all, which it may not. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:00, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Al Qaeda
The passage stating Al Qaeda as being a Palestinian organisation is flat out wrong. Osama bin Laden did cite the continuing occupation of Palestine as a reason for the fatwa against America, there is also a number of Palestinians that have been linked to Al Qaeda. However, Al Qaeda is committed to the establishment of a Universal Caliphate, making it fundamentally opposite to the notion of a Palestinian state. Seeing as it is controversial to label Al Qaeda as a 'Islamist' or 'Jihadist' organisation I will delete Al Qaeda from the passage. Any problems? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.90.49.138 (talk) 21:44, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

IRA Suicide Bombings
When did the IRA ever force persons to become suicide bombers? i'd like to see a citation to a formal source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.206.154.221 (talk) 20:19, 2 October 2005 (UTC)


 * PIRA did first use what were referred to as 'proxy' or 'human' bombs in October 1990. They were used on several occasions thereafter.


 * Wednesday 24 October 1990 'Proxy Bomb' Attacks
 * The Irish Republican Army (IRA) launched three bomb attacks at British Army check points. The attacks became know as 'proxy bombs' or 'human bombs' because three Catholic men, whom the IRA claimed had worked for the security forces, were tied into cars which had been loaded with explosives and ordered to drive to the check points. At the Coshquin checkpoint near Derry five soldiers and the man who was forced to drive the car were all killed. In a second attack, at Killeen near Newry, a soldier was killed. The third bomb, that had been driven to Omagh, County Tyrone, failed to detonate.
 * Trailfinder 09:25, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

That wouldn't be a defination of a suicide bomber though. Suicide would imply the bomber who triggers the device is doing so of thier own free will. Hobbes 30/12/05

I agree. The reference in the article states "involuntary suicide bomb", which means nothing. That is like a person being stabbed to death having commited "involuntary suicide". I will remove this. If someone has a good explanation for what "involuntary suicide" is, then post it here. Guardian sickness 22:31, 8 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It is nothing like "being stabbed to death having committed "involuntary suicide"". Proxy bombing relies on a person being willing to blow themselves up under the duress. A better comparison would be a person who chooses to throw themselves out of a window rather than face another round of torture. There should be a section on proxy bombing in this article. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 16:42, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Philip.

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 19:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Islamic Scholars on Martyrdom
I want to remove the part of Islamic scholars speaking on Martyrdom in the context of suicide bombings. This is because according to Sunni scholars, martyrdom is a great cause in the sight of God, but 'suicide bombings' do not qualify by most as 'martyrdom'. However, the text gives the impression as if there's no difference between martydom and suicide bombing. In fact, in the context in which it appears, it seems to suggest that "suicide bombing is rejected by some, but others accepted martyrdom (i.e. suicide bombings) and here're some quotes." Omer (talk) 06:49, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with this if it hasn't been done. In short words, martyrdom is dying for a religious cause, - including being killed in the battlefield - and suicide bombing only applies to, well, suicide bombing. -- Hamster   X  12:54, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Russian suicide dogs
Do the russian suicide dogs from ww2 count in this ? The soviet forces tied an anti-tank mines to a small dogs and trained them to run under a tanks to look for a food.But as they ran under a tanks the stick connected to a bomb detonated thus killing a dog with the tank.This tactics was a failure because many dogs ran under a soviet tanks instead of german ones.Partly because they were trained on russian tank models and so the dogs found them to be more familiar than the german ones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.191.39.41 (talk) 10:24, 7 May 2009 (UTC) 7.may 2009 13:25

You know what this article needs.
A picture of Achmed the dead suicide bomber.  AJUK  Talk!! — Preceding undated comment added 17:45, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Reading
The article "Our Suicide Bombers: Thoughts on Western Jihad" presents some interesting historical examples (USS Intrepid in Tripoli 1804, Doolittle raid in WWII, Spartans at Thermopylae, Sicarians in Judea in AD 1) that could be included in this article for completeness and balance if any of the editors of this Wikipedia article are interested. (I'm just dropping by after having read that article and finding it interesting.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.231.199 (talk) 19:08, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Suicide attacks in former Spanish colonies.
Suicide attacks happened (without the use of explosives) long before WW2. During Spain's 400 year occupation of the Philippines, the Muslim Moros of Sulu frequently went amok in markets and penetrated military establishments attacking anyone around them, with machetes strapped to their arms. They would ceremoniously pray, wash and dress themselves prior to the attack. It seems that suicide in the name of God is an old and not uncommon tactic used by Muslims during periods of infidel occupation. 219.88.63.35 05:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

ha! fat chance of getting this included because it strengthens the link between muslims and suicide bombing. this whole article is designed to put distance between the very real equation of suicide bomber = muslim.

wikipedia is pro-muslim. very sad its been HIJACKED by pro-muslims --76.173.244.75 (talk) 03:18, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Suicide bombing tactic innovated by MEK
In his book Shia Revival, Vali Nasr claims that the first occurrence of suicide bombing happened in Iran, shortly after the Iranian revolution. He explains that the Marxist group MEK (Mujahideen-e Khalq) used suicide bombing to kill 70 Iranian Islamic revolutionary leaders. (Excerpt: On 28 June 1981, bombs were detonated at the headquarters of the since-dissolved Islamic Republic Party. Around 70 high-ranking officials, including Chief Justice Mohammad Beheshti (who was the second most powerful figure in the revolution after Ayatollah Khomeini at the time), cabinet members, and elected members of parliament, were killed.) Nasr claims that this was the first use of suicide bombing in the ME that would be emulated for years to come. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.80.104.208 (talk) 07:23, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The Hafte tir bombing article on this seems to think that the bomber was never found, and there is no mention of it being a suicide attack in its sources. Also, Mohammed Hossein Fahmideh's suicide attack seems to be earlier, although it was "in combat", rather than terrorism/assassination.Hohum (talk) 13:42, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Suicide attack Presentation
An analysis of suicide bombers. Presentation on the suicide attacks that occur in various parts of the world by different motivations.. Document in English. Suicide attack Presentation —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.230.12.155 (talk) 13:44, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

What about non-political suicide attacks?
In response to the question by "Brian" (reposted from the top), I propose the article have this at the beginning:


 * This article is about killing of civilians for political and/or military reasons.
 * For criminal, personal non-political killings of civilians, see Mass murder or List of massacres

Anyone object? ---BoogaLouie (talk) 15:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I object. Suicide can kill non-civilians as well. Suicide as an act of war (kamikaze etc.) targets troops or equipment or supply lines and sources. Binksternet (talk) 17:37, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You're right. new label:


 * This article is about suicide attacks for political and/or military reasons.
 * For criminal, personal, and/or non-political killings ending in suicide, see Mass murder or List of massacres


 * Now, any other objections? --BoogaLouie (talk) 18:04, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
 * There is a major difference between suicide attacks and attacks ending in suicide--209.181.16.93 (talk) 22:22, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * And what exactly would that MAJOR DIFFERENCE be? 71.166.113.10 (talk) 20:11, 23 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Added the note 12-18-07 —Preceding unsigned comment added by BoogaLouie (talk • contribs) 18:43, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

What aren't Columbine HS M and other mass murder/suicide events included
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.166.113.10 (talk) 20:07, 23 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Can you provide reliable sources that characterise them as suicide attacks? Hohum (talk) 20:40, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Anti-semitism?
Why isn't anti-semitism or structural anti-semitsm mentioned here? Check this: http://libcom.org/library/anti-semitism-national-socialism-moishe-postone —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.158.199.3 (talk) 14:19, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Suicide bombing, scholar and hadith have used
this page contains fatwa hadith and quran verses that scholars such as Yusuf qardawi have used to justify suicide bombing

http://www.religioscope.com/pdf/martyrdom.pdf

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.108.110.162 (talk) 23:03, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Fidayyen Redirect
This discussion is not about this article, but i cant find a better place. the title Fidayyen redirects here, the redirect should not be brought here, this is a -possibly intended- misleading generalisation, the term is used in the Palestinian context (where the modern Arabic phrase/term originated) to mean guerrillas, or "freedom fighters" as some like to call them, the term literally means "sacrifice", in the sense of the word "sacrifice" that is used in contexts like "jesus sacrifice on the cross" - and im not associating - but would not mean suicide attack, unless every guerrilla attack is a suicide attack! which i claim to be incorrect - and possibly intended. anyhow, im suggesting changing the redirect to Guerillas or leave it pointing to an non-existing article since adding to this one would basically mean by definition adding contradictoriness sentences, or even let it point to terrorism! anything would be more accurate and less misleading. --213.6.13.202 (talk) 22:13, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Response section, reprisals may be motivated by broader agenda
The Response section draws some questionable conclusions about the nature and motivation of reprisals against suicide attacks. The most obvious example (but surely not the only one) is the following:


 * The Separation barrier under construction seem to be part of the Israeli government's efforts to stop suicide bombers from entering Israel proper.

This reflects a perspective promulgated by the barrier's supporters, but neglects details of the project which belie motivations besides, and indeed harmful to, security. The barrier is correctly labeled as a separation measure, but does not in most cases separate Israelis from Palestinians; instead, it winds through and between Palestinian communities, largely along the effective boundaries formed by Israeli settlements within the West Bank and in and around East Jerusalem. It leaves many Palestinians on Israel's side of the barrier, making claims that security is its purpose spurious. Instead, it can be viewed as an instance of the use of security concerns as a backdoor to enact policies coming from a separate agenda (in the case of the barrier, the agenda being the effective annexation of settlements).

Another example:


 * Sharon's government has imposed restrictions on the Palestinian community, making commerce, travel, school, and other aspects of life difficult for the Palestinians, with the average Palestinian suffering due to the choices of the suicide bombers.

It can be said that such attacks have been used to justify increasingly harsh tactics in the West Bank (as well as Gaza; most famously, the imposition of siege and the 2008 invasion), but again the security motivation for these tactics is not obvious. The imposed restriction of movement and economic isolation are not imposed purely on matters relevant to security (with many checkpoints within the West Bank rather than on its border; many Israeli-only roads separating communities within the West Bank; many banned imports and exports not having any relation to the ability of Palestinians to engage in further attacks). With that in mind, the motivation of such tactics is clearly founded on broader motivations than to prevent attacks, and so it is obvious that the tactics are not employed (solely) "due to the choices of the suicide bombers".

I don't frequently edit articles on Wikipedia, so I'm not sure how best to contribute to improving this section. The problems described (including those discussed above) go further than requiring citations; the topics themselves certainly belong in the Response section, as the tactics discussed are clearly used in response, but the framing of much of the section seems particularly slanted toward taking for granted that claimed motivations are genuine and not part of broader motivations, particularly with the use of weasel words like "seem"—a citation here would only need to reflect some person supposing that it's true. I wouldn't want to overstep so I hope someone more comfortable editing here can give this section some attention.

174.24.184.164 (talk) 06:07, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

History
The ancient background of suicide attacks. Lihaas (talk) 00:16, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Non-Mulsim suicide attackers
..What about non-muslim suicide attacks (Columbine, recent mall & church shootings, etc.)? 71.84.249.178 (talk) 22:51, 11 December 2007 (UTC)Brian
 * see post at bottom --BoogaLouie (talk)

Why was the references to the suicide bombing theory of the ancient testament immediatly removed? wasn't samson the first suicide bomber ever? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lataztaz (talk • contribs) 18:48, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Profile of attackers: Muslim religious motivation

 * this section is in need of some serious editing, it does not come close to meeting wikipedia standards due to POV, RS, UNDUE issues. Multiple controversial statements are made without ANY citations and sources are used that include blogs.  Further, statements supposedly supported by a given citation, including the blog, are not even supported by the citation.  To list my complaints (sorry, but they are quite numerous):

1) The quote by Irshad Manji has no citation. Seems someone likely found this quote somewhere, and I don't doubt that the leader of Islamic jihad may feel this way, but really, if you're going to quote someone, cite it or it should be deleted.

2)I quote "Another tabulation found a massive[quantify] increase in suicide bombings." The term massive is not objective and tends to be sensational.  Going to the source that was actually provided, the increase is a ~4.5 fold.

3)The statement "Recent research on the rationale of suicide bombing as an effective technique to kill enemies has highlighted the importance of the religion of Islam as a driving force." First, the citations listed here (including John Esposito's work given to support this statement) and additional ones given later including 51 and 52 and 54 (e.g., "Sex and the suicide bomber") all refute this statement and make the role of religion vs. political/social factors (or the combination thereof) quite debatable.  Hence a statement saying that recent research highlights the importance of the islamic religion as a driving force is inappropriate due to UNDUE.  Both religion and social/political motivations (both supported by recent research) are motivating factors and should be introduced together without giving clear primacy to one or the other as the literature does not support the view that religion is a greater motivator.

4) The statements by the CIFA are without citation, and should be removed until someone can produce those.

5) surah 9 is most commonly referred to as Repentance or also Dispensation. The ultimatum is the less common name.

6) The statement "Historically, as long as a Muslim died while attempting to advance the cause of Islam, including by warfare and killing, it was not considered suicide, but a glorious act worthy of paradise.[citation needed]" is desperately in need of a citation and will be removed until this is provided. And I'd love to see the citation provided because it will need to be a credible source speaking about mainstream Islam to not falter on the UNDUE criteria.  I don't think such a source exists because this statement is not consistent with Islamic theology in general where the "ends never justify the means" in contradistinction to the statement quoted above.  Please see my quote of Bernard Lewis, renowned expert of Islamic Studies, under issue 9 below to see why such a quote from a RS is unlikely to be found.

7) The statement "The tantalizing prize of paradise for being killed supply sufficient Quranic justification for modern Muslim suicide attackers, especially those who are dissatisfied with their current lives." Has the author read their reference [54] http://www.salon.com/sex/feature/2001/11/07/islam/index.html ??  If so, they would realize the author of that article is clearly positing that social and political forces are the primary determinants of terrorism.  To quote from the salon article, "In reality, political -- not sexual -- frustration constitutes the most important factor in motivating young men, or women, to engage in suicidal violence." And the article continues in that vein to its conclusion, "If prosperity and hope prevails in the Middle East, even the most charismatic warrior-preachers will not be able to find willing recruits."  Hence, its very hard to support the statement that the prize of heaven is enough justification for modern muslim suicide attackers. Again, the author appears to be pushing a particular POV rather than citing and reviewing the actual literature on the topic.

8) The following statement is also inaccurate, "As recently as 2010 Muhammad Badi, head of the Muslim Brotherhood, world's largest Muslim group called for a global Muslim jihad against the West, openly calling for all forms of violence including suicide attacks, saying "The improvement and change that the [Muslim] nation seeks can only be attained through jihad and sacrifice and by raising a jihadi generation that pursues death just as the enemies pursue life."[55] First, the source of this statement is a blog, not an RS by wikipedia standards.  Second, the source doesn't say anything about "all forms of violence including suicide attacks".  If you follow it to its next source, which is MEMRI (a source of english translations of arabic news articles, etc that has been questioned for its objectivity and mistranslations including by CNN translators and by a journalist at the guardian, hence it also may not meet criteria as a RS) the MEMRI article doesn't say this either. Most of it is about opposing the "Zionist-American" alliance and regards the issue of Palestine. The author does speak about raising a jihadi generation but terrorism and suicide attacks are never mentioned, and the only conflicts mentioned in the MEMRI translations are Palestine in one piece and a passing mention of, "[Today] our brothers in faith cry out to us from all the places [where they are] oppressed. We see them in Palestine, Iraq, Somalia, Afghanistan, and elsewhere. The enemies have pounced upon them, and their friends have delivered them into the hands [of their enemies]. Let us be as the [fighters] of Badr, and show Allah our virtue by coming to their aid and rescue." Notably, the fighters of Badr were an actual muslim army (not terrorists) who fought a pagan army, and this speech was given on the anniversary of the battle.

Such sensation statements not supported by citations (or with false citations provided) clearly push a biased POV.

9)The statement "Despite this, some still cling to notions that Islam doesn't permit suicide attacks because they involve suicide" is not objective. This very article presents multiple references that posit that this is the majority mainstream muslim view. Further, Bernard lewis in his books "The crisis of Islam: holy war and unholy terror" and Islam: the religion and the people states, "The emergence of the now widespread terrorism practice of suicide bombing is a development of the 20th century. It has no antecedents in Islamic history, and no justification in terms of Islamic theology, law, or tradition. It is a pity that those who practice this form of terrorism are not better acquainted with their own religion, and with the culture that grew up under the auspices of that religion." Bernard Lewis and Buntzie Ellis Churchill, Islam: The Religion and the People, Wharton School Publishing, 2008, p. 73 (Kitkat21 (talk) 06:35, 15 December 2010 (UTC))

Sources of explosives?
The article could use a section on where they get their explosives, and discussion of the feasibility (or lack thereof) of drying up those sources. -- 77.7.129.249 (talk) 12:22, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Definition section. Of what?
What is the purpose of the section headed "Definition"? To define? If so, what is it supposed to be defining? The first line of this section is "Suicide terrorism is a problematic term to define.". Well, that may be true, but this is an article about "Suicide attacks", so at least define the subject of the article, rather than something else. Suicide attacks are not necessarily terroristic in nature, as the article makes clear, so why on earth would anyone want to narrow the term to be defined? Defining the correct phrase, "Suicide attack", would entail a total rewriting of the section, IMO, as the current definition excludes many "suicide attacks". The current definition is wrong, because it is defining the wrong phrase.--Theresonator (talk) 09:52, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

If I knew how to delete this section, I would, but I don't want to mess the page up. But I'll have a go at deleting it (if I am allowed to) if nobody has responded in a few days. --Theresonator (talk) 22:24, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Refocusing this article on suicide terrorism
This article is being defined too broadly. The vast majority of the material concerns suicide terrorism. There are scattered reference to the Kamikaze, but the bulk of the text refers to Islamic terrorism and/or suicide bombings in the modern world.

The Kamikaze and a number of minor historical examples should not be allowed to dilute the focus of the page, especially as this page recieves redirects from searches on 'suicide bombing' and 'suicide terrorism'. This is the wikipedia page for suicide terrorism in all but name.

There is a very well constructed and referenced page on the Kamikaze. Suicide terrorism and the Kamikaze have different roots and different social and historical influences. They deserve seperate pages, and forcing them together in this page is mixing categories.

I am going to start to change the focus of the article to suicide terrorism. This is a major change, but it reflects the actual content in the article. Suicide terrorism covers all of the types listed on the article page except the Kamikaze, which I have boxed into its own section on the page.

Sjw-2006 (talk) 14:09, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't do it. If you want that kind of focus, make a new page entitled Suicide terrorism, but if you start taking out descriptions and analysis of suicide attacks that you don't think are terrorism, you make a lie of the title of this article. This article is not solely about terrorism, it's about the general subject. Binksternet (talk) 15:04, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

The bulk of the content should stay, but the Kamikaze stuff should be boxed off. It is an outlier that is skewing the page, the exception in pages of other similar examples. When that happens, then it is logical to make the outlier a different category. The dedicated Kamikaze page is more rigorous, academic and better referenced than the small amount of material on it on this page.


 * Kamikase attacks are a prime example of a suicide bombing. Don't make this article dishonest by removing that stuff. 121.45.233.131 (talk) 06:17, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Suicide attack as a title is also problematic- it is not usually a category independent of terrorism. One of the changes I added was a para on the complexities of defining and working with the term terrorism. 90% + of the content is about suicide terrorism, and calling it 'suicide attack' does not change that. 86.161.123.99 (talk) 15:24, 14 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Again, don't make a lie of this article's title. If you want to have an article that focuses on the terrorism aspect, bring the information that is here to the Suicide terrorism page, currently a redirect. This page here could serve as a quick information page which points the reader to lengthier and more detailed articles about Kamikaze and terrorist uses of suicide attack. Binksternet (talk) 16:40, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Confusing definition

 * A suicide attack is an attack on a military or civilian target, in which an attacker intends to kill others and knows he or she will most likely die.

This is inconsistent in my mind with the normal definition of suicide, which is intentionally killing oneself. The current definition could class, say, a desperate breakout attempt by a cut-off unit as a "suicide attack", which is bizzare. I suggest:


 * The intent of a breakout is not necessarily to kill others, but thats just a likely outcome. However the example of troops going over the top of a trench to attack and kill an enemy with a high likelyhood of being gunned down would qualify as a suicide attack, and thats an apropriate term 121.45.233.131 (talk) 06:25, 1 August 2011 (UTC)


 * A suicide attack is an attack on a military or civilian target, in which the attacker intends to die in the process of killing others.

Of course ultimately we need to know what reliable sources define "suicide attack" as, which we don't seem to right now. But the intent to die is required for suicide, so it should logically be required for suicide attacks, no? Eleland 19:36, 5 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I see your point, but I wonder how many attackers are more interested in dying than killing? I mean, if they had to choose between their suicide failing and not being able to kill any of their targets, wouldn't they choose the suicide failing? --BoogaLouie 22:04, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Article Quality

 * this article is very poorly organized, very susceptible to bias and less that ideal references. It is truly in need of a major remake (not just a few minor edits).  However, I can't say I'm volunteering for the job.  As for the anonymous editors who attempt to bias the article by making changes to insinuate that mainstream orthodox islam condones suicide attacks, I'm afraid you're going to need to find a RS for that.  No less of an orientalist than Bernard Lewis has written that orthodox islam does not permit such acts and that there have been no antecedents to such actions until the 20th and 21st centuries. Kitkat21 (talk) 00:43, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Proxy suicide bombers
Not aware of too many of these, except those carried out by the IRA in 1990. Is it more widespread? Fergananim (talk) 21:28, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Muslim religious motivation

 * I am planning to edit this section to reorganize it and add a primer that puts suicide attacks into context of the general rules of war in Islam. Since suicide attacks are an act of open hostility they are governed by the rules of war in Islam.  The differing views of different muslims all hinge on how they interpret the rules of war. I think this will make the section read more smoothly and provide a rational organization, which this section (and other parts of the article) lack.Kitkat21 (talk) 10:37, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Attack - mission
The term suicide mission is used several times in the article as if there was no destinction between mission and attack. Soerfm (talk) 13:55, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * If there is no destinction: please merge articles
 * If there is: please define.


 * I think there is a distinction. The suicide mission article talks about the term as used in a more general sense by people who think there's a good chance they might die, but don't actually intend to kill themselves. Anyway, that article looks a lot like synthesis, so merging it here wouldn't be appropriate. DoctorKubla (talk) 16:43, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Japanese kamikaze --- crew size for kaiten (suicide torpedo) attacks?
The existing kaiten article says that although two-man crews were sometimes used in training, the final suicide run always used a one-man crew. The kamikaze section of this article, however, says that two-man crews were used in kaiten attacks, and (implausibly) that the two crew members first embraced and then shot each other in the head. This would seem to require very good synchronization, not to mention being excessively wasteful of human life. Does anyone know the real story here?CharlesHBennett (talk) 20:55, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

More Muslim scholars opinions
I know 4 more very famous Sunni scholars who spoke out against suicide attacks and considered them forbidden. They are Al-Albani, Ibn Baz, Ibn Uthaimeen, and Saleh Al-Fawzan. But the problem is that their fatwas are either in Arabic text or Arabic audio. Can I use them?--BelalSaid (talk) 00:37, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
 * If there are no English sources available then sources in other languages are acceptable, as long as they meet the criteria for reliable sources. If you can, please quote the relevant part of the fatwa, plus an English translation and include these in a footnote. - Lindert (talk) 09:13, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Multiple issues with the Islam section
To begin with, the section does not cover its subject. It neglects the question of in-Islam suicide bombers, which are, by far, more numerous and more deadly then suicide bombings against kufur. So this section must be expanded. Then there's the problem that it's apologetic. I understand the sentiment, but it's shouldn't be present in an article. Also - it takes the major proportion of the section. Zarnivop (talk) 07:42, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Dare to Die Corps
During the Republic of China (1912–1949) era and the Xinhai Revolution, "Dare to Die Corps" or "Suicide squads" were frequently used by Chinese armies.

敢死隊 敢死队 gǎnsǐduì

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ck6IumJLdPkC&pg=PA14#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://baike.baidu.com/view/254803.htm

http://cidian.911cha.com/MWNjbG8=.html

http://www.haodic.com/query/a%20dare-to-die%20corps/

http://www.dictall.com/indu53/67/5367062169C.htm

http://www.woyaofanyi.com/translate_1554934.html

http://dict.cn/dare-to-die%20ship

http://so.baike.com/s/doc/敢死队敢死队-敢死队%28a+dare-to-die+corps%3B+a+suicide+squad%29gǎn+sǐ+duì，军队为完成最艰巨的战斗任务由不怕死的人组成的...美国影片《敢死队》，讲述美国政府-gansidui%2A&isFrom=intoDoc

http://today.zgxc.org.cn/content.php?typeid=5&id=28788

http://cidian.xpcha.com/9e7g5dxwqhb.html

http://www.zdic.net/cd/ci/11/ZdicE6Zdic95ZdicA267998.htm

Dr. Sun Yatsen Huang Xing

Huang : "We must die, so let us die bravely".

http://books.google.com/books?id=51Fpis0D1v0C&pg=PA263&dq=dare+to+die+china&hl=en&ei=GeSrTOz6DYL48Aak3ZSzCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=dare%20to%20die%20china&f=false

Students

http://books.google.com/books?id=B_UnAAAAMAAJ&q=This+is+a+suicide+squad%3B+don't+come+with+us,+please.%22&dq=This+is+a+suicide+squad%3B+don't+come+with+us,+please.%22&hl=en&ei=_OOrTLfaGcL58AaBqIT0Bw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

Yu Peilun (also Liu Juemin Fang Shengdong)

72 Martyrs of Huanghuagang Wuchang Uprising Kuomintang Republic of China

http://books.google.com/books?id=Z5bpAAAAIAAJ&q=Yu+Pei-lun+martyr&dq=Yu+Pei-lun+martyr&hl=en&ei=6PmrTKXcKcG78ga7xtGSCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBQ

Dare to Die student corps Chiang Kaishek  Huang Shaoxiong  Bai Chongxi  Xinhai Revolution.

http://books.google.com/books?id=03catqbPCmgC&pg=PA23&dq=dare+to+die+china&hl=en&ei=GeSrTOz6DYL48Aak3ZSzCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=dare%20to%20die%20china&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=r3AJFusMHJwC&pg=PA51&dq=pai+ch'ung-hsi+dare+to+die&hl=en&ei=twYhTL27L8aqlAfXh9km&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=pai%20ch'ung-hsi%20dare%20to%20die&f=false

Dare to Die Corps letters family. Huanghuakang monument 72 martyrs.

http://books.google.com/books?id=hOeeAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA93&dq=dare+to+die+china&hl=en&ei=GeSrTOz6DYL48Aak3ZSzCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=dare%20to%20die%20china&f=false

Republic of China Qing dynasty imperial system.

http://books.google.com/books?ei=RuSrTMyvM4G78gb7gM2vCA&ct=result&id=Wm7VAAAAMAAJ&dq=dare+to+die+china&q=It+was+the+martyrs%27+blood+which+paved+the+way+for+the+founding+of+the+Republic+of+China

"Dare to Die" corps Kuomintang defeat insurrection  Canton

http://books.google.com/books?id=IT8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA147&dq=dare+to+die+china&hl=en&ei=RuSrTMyvM4G78gb7gM2vCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=dare%20to%20die%20china&f=false

Women in the Dare to Die regiments

http://books.google.com/books?id=cZ3V9umMPf8C&q=Other+women+in+joining+the+%22Dare+to+Die%22+Regiments+later+on,+saw+her+as+a+model+for+rebellion+against+the+enemies+of+China.+One+of+her+last+poems+was+particularly+well-known+because+it+combined+the+themes+of+her&dq=Other+women+in+joining+the+%22Dare+to+Die%22+Regiments+later+on,+saw+her+as+a+model+for+rebellion+against+the+enemies+of+China.+One+of+her+last+poems+was+particularly+well-known+because+it+combined+the+themes+of+her&hl=en&ei=oeSrTLyiFIH68AanprijCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

http://books.google.com/books?id=YYpIAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA79&dq=dare+to+die+china&hl=en&ei=GeSrTOz6DYL48Aak3ZSzCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CE4Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=dare%20to%20die%20china&f=false

Coolies anti Communist "Dare to Die Corps"

http://books.google.com/books?id=1Cs9_qeehaEC&pg=PA67&dq=dare+to+die+china&hl=en&ei=RuSrTMyvM4G78gb7gM2vCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=dare%20to%20die%20china&f=false

Tiananmen Square Incident of 1989 students "Dare to Die Corps"

http://books.google.com/books?id=ng0Rr7FsoqQC&pg=PA237&dq=dare+to+die+china&hl=en&ei=GeSrTOz6DYL48Aak3ZSzCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CFIQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=dare%20to%20die%20china&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=r3AJFusMHJwC&pg=PA51&dq=pai+ch'ung-hsi+dare+to+die#v=onepage&q=pai%20ch'ung-hsi%20dare%20to%20die&f=false

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/these-chinese-warlords-had-the-best-bromance-in-military-history-264ecfc5469d

http://www.asia.ubc.ca/page/6/?profile_cct_group

Rajmaan (talk) 19:05, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

use against the japanese

http://books.google.com/books?id=dhuNIR6GKPcC&pg=PA319&dq=dare+to+die+corps+swords&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oWfbU_6lKs_LsQS2i4DIDA&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=dare%20to%20die%20corps%20swords&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=PNJOxyP0SqEC&pg=PA319&dq=dare+to+die+corps+swords&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oWfbU_6lKs_LsQS2i4DIDA&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=dare%20to%20die%20corps%20swords&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=s2NKutuUlA8C&pg=PA18-IA9&dq=dare+to+die+corps+swords&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oWfbU_6lKs_LsQS2i4DIDA&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=dare%20to%20die%20corps%20swords&f=false

page 284

http://books.google.com/books?id=8VIUAQAAIAAJ&q=dare+to+die+corps+swords&dq=dare+to+die+corps+swords&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oWfbU_6lKs_LsQS2i4DIDA&ved=0CEwQ6AEwCA

page 234

http://books.google.com/books?id=N68GRK67FjQC&q=dare+to+die+taierzhuang+japanese&dq=dare+to+die+taierzhuang+japanese&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eWjbU6nNLLHfsASKmYC4Ag&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ

http://books.google.com/books?id=wJrLhcgog8oC&pg=PA350&lpg=PA350&dq=dare+to+die+taierzhuang+japanese&source=bl&ots=dkbLcnATPO&sig=FwXmV9pnmfmZq9gtp4ISF3E-8o4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jmfbU7vzFI_isATZjICYCg&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=dare%20to%20die%20taierzhuang%20japanese&f=false

Chinese suicide bombers against Japanese tanks
At the Battle of Shanghai

http://books.google.com/books?id=jpPUAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT127&lpg=PT127&dq=shanghai+grenade+tanks+japanese&source=bl&ots=FDtZrlcho4&sig=E4q36bLMXdDCFJ0MK1wxaDQTxrQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WXDbU-CtC_HJsQSSiIHwBA&ved=0CFYQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=shanghai%20grenade%20tanks%20japanese&f=false

Battle of Taierzhuang

http://books.google.com/books?id=bt7q8hfiZ4gC&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=taierzhuang+suicide+bombers&source=bl&ots=WPZRmC3Wz6&sig=5LxRk4wGlVgS40x9YfPKryla1mE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=I2_bU7HPL6_gsASt1IKQAQ&ved=0CFwQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=taierzhuang%20suicide%20bombers&f=false

Model 24 hand grenades

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Stories/Newsletter1-8-2/xinhui.htm

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Stories/emagazine-3/tanks/Chinese_Tank_Forces_and_Battles_before_1945_ed.htm

http://numistamp.com/Taierzhuang-1938Stalingrad-1942-(Page-1).php

page 518

http://www.gobetweenfilms.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/PhD_Angry_Monk_07.pdf

http://www.zora.uzh.ch/17710/3/Angry_Monk_Dissertation.pdf

page 447

http://books.google.com/books?id=nRlWAAAAYAAJ&q=Thus,+for+instance,+a+group+of+Chinese+soldiers,+in+spite+of+heavy+artillery+fire,+attacked+a+column+of+Japanese+tanks+with+hand-grenades+and+destroyed+four+tanks,+sacrificing+their+own+lives.+These+courageous+soldiers+thereby+opened+the+way+for+the+Chinese+troops.+According+to+reports+from+Shanghai,+the+losses+of+the+Japanese+army+operating+on+the+eastern+front+amounted+in+February+to+5,400+killed+and+12,700+wounded.+400+oificers+were+killed+or+wounded.+In+March+35+Japanese&dq=Thus,+for+instance,+a+group+of+Chinese+soldiers,+in+spite+of+heavy+artillery+fire,+attacked+a+column+of+Japanese+tanks+with+hand-grenades+and+destroyed+four+tanks,+sacrificing+their+own+lives.+These+courageous+soldiers+thereby+opened+the+way+for+the+Chinese+troops.+According+to+reports+from+Shanghai,+the+losses+of+the+Japanese+army+operating+on+the+eastern+front+amounted+in+February+to+5,400+killed+and+12,700+wounded.+400+oificers+were+killed+or+wounded.+In+March+35+Japanese&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LnHbU6nJJdfNsQTq7oLQCw&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA

page 172

http://books.google.com/books?id=TevqAAAAIAAJ&q=The+men+in+the+trenches+waited+till+the+tanks+came+close,+then+jumped+out+and+threw+bundles+of+hand-+grenades+under+their+wheels+and+into+their+ports.+Four+tanks+were+destroyed,+neatly+pierced+by+anti-tank+shells,+and+nine+others+were&dq=The+men+in+the+trenches+waited+till+the+tanks+came+close,+then+jumped+out+and+threw+bundles+of+hand-+grenades+under+their+wheels+and+into+their+ports.+Four+tanks+were+destroyed,+neatly+pierced+by+anti-tank+shells,+and+nine+others+were&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9HDbU9iuMq3esATmw4L4Dw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA

http://grognard.com/info1/stormover.pdf

http://csonfz28.fotopages.com/?&page=18

http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6480.0.html

http://www.lead-adventure.de/index.php?topic=16748.15;wap2

http://www.edinburghwargames.com/back%20of%20beyond.htm

http://www.twfigurines.de/bob/chinese/chinese06.htm

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-China-Chinese-Taierzhuang-Dare-To-Die-Corps-Order-Medal-Badge-/321983853861

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=261563

http://www.thewargameswebsite.com/forums/topic/chinese-civil-war-15mm/

http://toofatlardies.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=75

http://mlwodementia.blogspot.com/2014/09/progress-on-chinese-big-sword-platoon.html

http://militaryhistorynow.com/2014/10/17/just-dying-to-fight-two-thousand-years-of-suicide-attackers/

http://forum.wargamesfactory.com/viewtopic.php?t=45&p=3812

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chinese_soldiers_from_a_%22Big_Sword_Unit%22_during_the_Japanese_invasion_of_Jehol_Province,_China,_1933.jpg

http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/C/l/Close_Combat_Weapons.htm

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=86220

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PQiaurIiDM

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?topic=166448.0

http://badasshistory.tumblr.com/page/2

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http://www.burbuja.info/inmobiliaria/historia/686908-guerra-segun-china.html

http://forum.wargamesfactory.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=45&start=10

http://www.ww2f.com/topic/20298-chinese-army-in-wwii/

http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2012/11/26/693/comment-page-1/

Karl Klinke
> Another example was the Prussian soldier Karl Klinke on 18 April 1864 at the Battle of Dybbøl, who died blowing a hole in a Danish fortification.

Karl Klinke died in an Attack while the battle. He was shot and burnt by an early detonating bomb. It was no Suicide Attack. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Klinke — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.65.150.132 (talk) 09:25, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

. Thanks for noting that. 75.208.122.154 (talk) 20:10, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Fair Military Tactic
How did the Other Views subsection Fair Military Tactic: get slipped into the page without discussion? 75.208.122.154 (talk) 17:00, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Fair Military Tactic
1. It can be used in place of heavy artillery such as 155 mm cannon howitzers (it possibly did happen in Lebanon and was used against I.D.F.). 2. It can be used in the Deep Savage Counter—offensive to destroy enemy's supply lines with 100's of thousands of partisans attacking enemy's rear. 3. Nonmilitary use: Lebanon: 16—year old woman did carry out a suicide—bombing attack as an act of vendetta against I.D.F. for her killed father and brother.

There is no need for any suicide bombers. your outlook on martyr does show that their is no response to these martyr's in any form. There is not one BIBLE or the KORAN to prove this point, Not one has ever return, there is not anyone who will support this action. The only comment is that the inspiration should then ask if this person will "come back" from the dead, this is definitly imposible Can you know prove otherwise. Iany form of abuse is not understood — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.27.47.195 (talk) 19:09, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Pape on Islam
As of July 16, 2013, the section on "Idealism" allegedly quoted Pape saying the exact opposite of his official position: "Characteristics which Pape thought to be correlated to suicide bombing and bombers included: Islam, especially the influence of Salafi Islam; brutality and cruelty of the occupiers; competition among militant groups; and poverty, immaturity, poor education, past history of suicide attempts, or social maladjustment of the attackers.  In fact, Pape (2005, p. 109) said, "An examination of the sixty-six al-Qaeda suicide terrorists who were known citizens of the Sunni-majority countries shows that American military presence is a stronger factor than Salafi fundamentalism in predicting who dies for al-Qaeda's cause." I won't question the comments on brutality and cruelty nor competition among militant groups, but "poverty, immaturity, poor education, past history of suicide attempts, or social maladjustment of the attackers" is also inconsistent with what he wrote. For example, on p. 200, he said, "The profile of a suicide terrorist resembles that of a politically conscious individual who might join a grassroots movement more than it does the stereotypical murderer, religious cult member, or everyday suicide."

Elsewhere, he wrote explicitly that the motivation of suicide terrorists is NOT religion but a foreign occupation by a democracy posing a secular threat to local culture and customs. I will delete the phrases that seem to me inconsistent with Pape's writing. However, I wanted first to note here why I'm doing this. DavidMCEddy (talk) 19:41, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

No real proof of any suicide attacks by terrorists prior to the 15.12.81 embassy bombing in Beirut
On the 15 of December 1981 the Iraqi embassy in Beirut, Lebanon was blown up by a truck with a driver inside. Five minutes prior to the explosion a fax was sent from the Dawa Party to several news agencies to tell the world what was going to happen. Proving that this attack was a pre-planned suicide attack. The first ever proven such attack in the world. Even thou many terrorist attacks, ever since the attack on Lod airport in May 1972 very likely was suicide attacks, there is no genuine proof for that. What I mean is that they could be cases where the attackers didn't wanted to be taken alive. (Fearing to rat on his comerades after torture, or not wanting to stay imprisoned for life). One of the japanese attackers on Lod airport probably killed himself with his own hand grenade, after running out of ammo during the firefight. But there is no proof that this was deliberately. It could have been an accident too. Interesting to know if the Japanese Red Army bragged about suicide attack after the Lod airport attack or not. If they had planned it as such, I'm totally convinced that they would have bragged about it as such. (Does anybody know?). My point is that it was 10-20 very suspisious episodes in the May 1972-December 1981 period (especially in the Middle East) where the terrorists showed incresingly fanatism year by year and didn't give themselves up alive. I do believe that suicide attacks started sometime during this period, but without any earlier proof the Beirut embassy bombing in 81 must count as THE starting point.

Bjarnulf, Oslo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.209.88.240 (talk) 21:03, 2 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Robert Pape has for many years now managed a project involving people scouring the literature available in many languages for incidents of suicide terrorism. They've primarily focused on events since 1981, but I'd be surprised if they haven't reviewed earlier cases. DavidMCEddy (talk) 00:24, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

The only thing that can prove things is if the syrian regime falls and documents are taken away by last minute security officers ending up in exile in the West and elsewhere. The Assad regime was pulling the strings on most terror groups in Lebanon in the 72-81 period. Among them the Japanese Red Army which was based in the Bakaa valley since 1971. Is there any info on say Wikileaks etc.?

Bjarnulf, Oslo


 * We can joke about Kamikaze pilots on their third missions ;-) but it's hard to recruit people to commit suicide for a political cause without substantive grievances. If Robert Pape research results are accurate, there would have been no suicide terrorism without substantive grievances enforced by a foreign occupation from a democracy.  Assad may have provided material support but could not have recruited the people without the foreign occupation, etc.  DavidMCEddy (talk) 13:12, 6 December 2013 (UTC)


 * There is a difference between a suicide bombing (where 1981 does seem to be one of the first, if not the first), and a suicide attack, which Kamikaze obviously are. Additionally, the scope of this article is all suicide attacks, not just bombs, and not just those with terrorist motives.


 * Going to the main point the thread starter made: "but without any earlier proof the Beirut embassy bombing in 81 must count as THE starting point". Almost. If reliable sources describe it as the first suicide bombing, then wikipedia should follow them. However, if while reading on the subject, the earliest date you can find is X, it's bordering on original research to say this is the starting point, unless the sources actually say it is. ( Hohum  @ ) 18:32, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I read in a book many years back that there was a kind of build up to the Dec.81 embassy suicide-bombing. In the summer of '81 in the middle of the Lebanese civil war, Beirut became the scene of increasingly cynic and evil car-bombings. All the ethnic minorities controlling each their mini-territory began to sneak bombs onto lorries and taxis driving goods around the city. Blowing them up in enemy territory with the driver onboard with remote control, or by time bombs. When lorries and taxis became reluctant to carry suspicious good they ever tricked or forced one of their own citizen to drive a carbomb into enemy territory holding family members as hostages blowing up the car with the driver inside. Car bombs was nothing new in Beirut, but now cars with drivers inside them was exploding as a weekly occurence. I know Wikipedia demands sources, but I can't give any. Hope other readers has more on info this. I know what I tell is to vague to be included now.

Bjarnulf, Oslo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.209.88.240 (talk) 20:58, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

There already exists an article called '1981 Iraqi embassy bombing' on Wikipedia. It states that this is the first modern suicide bombing by terrorists. And has a lot of book sources given. So that might be the final word in this discussion.

Bjarnulf, Oslo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.209.88.240 (talk) 00:39, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Suicide bombing subject in Hollywood movies years before 15.12.81
Saw a bunch of old DVDs in the Xmas, and was surprised of how many old Hollywood movies from the '70s who had this theme. Airport (70) had a mental patient blowing himself up in an airliner over Toronto. Godfather-Part 2 (74) had a guerrilla blowing himself up in Havana with a grenade in 1958. Hindenburg (75) had a suicide bomber onboard the airship's last flight in 1937. And has read about, but not seen, that Black Sunday (77) has a suicide bomber plot against an sports event in Miami.

Interesting to see if others could come up with even earlier books and films where this subject is present.

Bjarnulf, Oslo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.209.88.240 (talk) 16:43, 31 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The American Spectator had an article which addressed the fact that Steve Englehart included suicide bombers in a 1973 issue of The Avengers. "Englehart has no clear recollection of inventing the suicide bomber," the article begins. DS (talk) 14:13, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Major re-writing
I apologize for the enormous number of edits, but it is the most practical way for me to work on the article --BoogaLouie (talk) 18:51, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Photo of nun
I'm a little irritated about the picture "Simulated female suicide bomber", because it depicts a nun. Now Christians are well known for many atrocities, but certainly not for suicide bombing, which is, in its current form, a genuinely islamistic phenomenon. So, could we maybe either replace the picture with an appropriate one or delete it altogether? Thanks. --Kraligor (talk) 15:54, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

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Proposed merge with Female Suicide Bombers
duplicates topic Legacypac (talk) 10:11, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Disagree as it's a valid and quite distinct sub-topic. Female suicide bombers should exchange some material with Suicide attack, though. --PanchoS (talk) 16:48, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Disagree as it's a valid topic that has some research into it. Now the female bomber article could use some work, but it should be kept separate. I am going to remove the note to merge. --Frmorrison (talk) 19:55, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Terminology
This just struck me.

We talk of a suicide bomber. This is quite reasonable, because when we're considering just the bomber, it's a relevant fact that they included themself in the victims.

Let me now turn to a suicide bombing, where the whole circumstances, including the victims, now come into consideration. When it comes to, typically, dozens of victims, the fact that the bomber was also blown up is very much less relevant than above. The focus ought to be on the innocent, not on the bomber, regardless of the fact that he chose to take his own life. The fact that the word "suicide" is attached to "bombing", almost suggests that it was a mass suicide, by bomb blast. But only the bomber committed suicide. The rest were most definitely murdered. A "suicide bombing" might be appropriate where a person goes off to some secluded place and blows themself up, harming nobody else. But where they also take out dozens or hundreds of innocent people, how can it be considered a "suicide bombing"?

Can anyone comment meaningfully on this? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  05:30, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

first suicide bomber ever
The first suicide bomber used gunpowder to suicide and kill other at the same time. Of course he was a Chinese, people claim he was mad but there is no official account. Even statistically based on the theory of large numbers sounds as solid unproven fact via its ultra high probability. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:4105:CB00:D8A0:D892:2BFA:79B9 (talk) 19:07, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Some Issues to Address with terminology and specific word usage
Overall i thought this article had reliable data and had many valuable sources to back up some of the points the author was making. But, there were a few questions I would like to address as I was going through the article. First is in the first paragraph where the author is defining suicide terrorism as "expects to die". I would argue that this is wrong because in essence the perpetrator will die for it to be suicide terrorism. If the terrorist does not die from the action then it will not be classified as suicide terrorism. Another problem I had with the article was the implementation of the other uses of suicide terrorism including homicide, genocide, and sacrifice terrorism. I don't think this section needed to be added because it didn't add to the overall objective of this article and is information that is not widely used for data resources or in the terrorism field itself. Besides these two points I did think that the section about profiles and citing work from Pape and Atran was very well put together and brought information that many new readers of suicide terrorism probably didn't know before. For example, Pape found that a majority of suicide terrorists are from the middle class and educated. I also thought that bringing in the perspective of western Islam scholars and other Islam scholars and using their point of view on suicide terrorism gives the reader great insight into the division of Islam today. TheBasher55 (talk) 02:39, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

History: what about the Hashishins?
I see that one of the first instances of Islamic suicide attacks is not mentioned.

were they muslim, or living among muslims but practicing another religion? i think the latter... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.50.81 (talk) 06:36, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

==The hashishins were part of an unorthodox Shia sect. Their attacks were mostly against political targets of the Sunni majority at the time. So yes, they were a religious Islamic group that practiced suicide terrorism for the purposes of protecting their groups interests against a stronger Sunni majority. Savannt (talk) 17:50, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Reorganization of the Post-1980 attacks section
The Strategy and Advantages sub-heading and the Attacker Profiles and Motivations subheading need to be changed to major topic headings as they don't relate specifically to Post-1980 attacks.

The arguments in Attacker Profiles and Motivations then needs to be broken down into a series of subheadings highlighting the main causes proposed in the literature, the main arguments for and against each proposed cause, and finally the most current consensus on the issue, or lack there of if there is none.

These sub-headings could be generally organized as:

-Psychological

-Socioeconomic

-Ideology This would be a good section to put the Nationalist resistance and religion heading breaking down the difference in frequency and violence. This would also be a good place to move the Islam sub-heading. It seems biased to give Islam it's own heading because it marks it as distinctive even though there's not necessarily evidence that the profiles/ motivations of Islamic suicide attackers are significantly different from other extremest religious suicide attackers.

Savannt (talk) 18:17, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

I think that's a very bad idea. Motivations are subjective and their perception by western intellectuals is often condescending. One could say "Osama Bin Laden orchestrated attacks killing 3000 Americans because he was sad about American imperialism". No thanks. The separate Islam section is very warranted, as it is in fact a unique phenomena, characterized by bombings. In fact we should make a separate article for Suicide bombings and methods such as trucks, vests, etc.--Monochrome _ Monitor  04:31, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Definition doesn't get to the point
The definition is in my opinion unfitting. It sounds like a device that will achieve destruction of the target and will at the same time fire a gun pointed at the attacker's ehad. I would focus much more on the target in a definition. How about this:

"A suicide attack is any violent attack in which the method employed to destroy or kill the target(s) is expected to kill the attacker in the process [...])"

It states much more that the suicide of the attacker is much more a practical consequence of the means of delivery of the attack. - Immernoch EkelAlfred (Spam me! (or send me serious messages, whatever you like)) 14:40, 23 May 2017 (UTC)
 * WP:SILENCE - No objections, thus consensus by silence. Edit made. I now wrote: "A suicide attack is any violent attack in which the attacker expects their own death as a direct result of the method used to harm, damage or destroy the target." This stresses that death is not simultaneous, but a direct and causal result of the attack. I wrote "direct" to emphasize that the attack itself kills the attacker and not, say, a police SWAT team arriving ten minutes later. - Immernoch EkelAlfred (Spam me! (or send me serious messages, whatever...) 23:37, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

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"Chaver" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Chaver. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:57, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Post-1980 examples
The 2014 bomb attack in Somalia seems to not be current anymore (due to the 2017 Mogadishu truck bombing) Sokrates2987 (talk) 12:20, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

WP:DISCLAIMERS does not apply to a trigger warning
It seems a bit niave to reference WP:DISCLAIMERS (which talks about censorship and spoilers) as justification for not including a warning of potential harm or death that could be caused by viewing content on Wikipedia. Is there anything else you can support your revert with? — F ORMAL D UDE ( talk ) 22:53, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi FormalDude, please see WP:MULTI which says to not start duplicate discussions on multiple talk pages. I have replied over at Talk:Suicide so let's keep the discussion there. I also see that the template you created/I reverted has been listed for deletion over at Templates for discussion/Log/2021 February 17 by another user. Some1 (talk) 01:15, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Subsection headers
Some subsection headers are apparently not headers at all, but instead just bold text followed by multiple linebreaks. Shouldn't they be made into proper subsections? J I P &#124; Talk 22:13, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I came here to say the same thing. I've fixed the headers. Graham 87 17:12, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Edits Made (12/17/21)
Hello all!

I added a paragraph in the gender section, including the differences in motivations for suicide bombing between men and women. I hope this helps to improve the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Melanie.haber (talk • contribs) 19:53, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Suicide Truck use by Ukraine
Should this be added here? https://www.rferl.org/a/blast-russian-bridge-crimea-fighting-eastern-ukraine/32070973.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.51.30.83 (talk) 19:43, 8 October 2022 (UTC)