Talk:Suikoden II

Update Discussion
Okay, I'm planning on overhauling this page. I feel this would be preferable to merging it with the article for Suikoden, as discussed below. There doesn't appear to be much discussion on this game at the moment, but I'm going to outline my plan here first in case anyone has it on their watchlists. Please feel free to comment on or critique my design.


 * This page is completely devoid of a proper introduction, which I will write based on a few key characteristics. First, the popularity of this game firmly established Suikoden as a series that Konami felt they should pursue, as the first game was eclipsed by the unprecedented success of Final Fantasy VII.  It is also a cult classic that had a small production run which causes it to continue to fetch high prices to this day.  This game also contributed greatly to the development of the Suikoden following by spurring discussion of the True Runes and also put Harmonia on the map, which is arguably the political and cultural hegemon of the Suikoden world, or at least the northern continent.  It also fleshed out the game world some more with discussion of the Grasslands, the primary setting for its sequel, Suikoden III.


 * The Gameplay discussion is probably the strongest part of the existing article, though it needs some cleanup and a little development. It can be clarified, since it assumes somewhat that the reader understands some Suikoden conventions.  I will move some portions to other sections, as well.


 * The Plot section includes character discussion, which may end up being a can of worms here since we're dealing with 108 characters plus NPCs. I believe that we can divide the character and plot sections, so I will do that.  I'm on the fence about merging, because if someone ever puts together a good, categorical Suikoden series page, it's going to be a headache to get consistency across the board.  Some characters are present in multiple games, some are merely referenced in other games, and so forth.  This is beyond the scope of my revision, so what I intend to do is discuss the primary characters in the game and leave merging up for debate.


 * The "Detailed Plot Synopsis" is very long for a synopsis. I think that this can be trimmed somewhat and revised to better show the primary plot points and themes of the game.  I've seen both detailed and brief plot synopses on Wikipedia, so I would greatly encourage feedback from the community on this.


 * The Rarity discussion is important and will be kept, but revised. Some of the information is outdated.

Some miscellaneous items as well:


 * There is no discussion on the game's music, which enjoyed some popularity in the video game music community.


 * Virtually no discussion of the game's development and sales success. This game was a turning point for the series in this regard.


 * No discussion of critical response to the game. The game is somewhat old, so a wide variety of reviews will be difficult to obtain, but this is very doable.


 * As mentioned before, a section on the True Runes present in the game will probably be helpful, as well.

I am also considering the legacy of this game as one of the last created in the class of two-dimensional, sprite-based games on home video game console units. However, this may be more appropriate in another article. Please provide feedback so that we can have a well-rounded in the article in the end. Also, please keep in mind that I anticipate this being a first step in an extended revision process, and we don't have to knock it all out in one shot. ~ Seitori 11:34, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

comment I disagree that this should be merged with the Suikoden (GAME) article though, as the two are seperate and it's best to keep them that way.
 * The plot section does need tremendous cutting down, personally I find the Final Fantasy 7 plot summary to be a fantastic example and I follow the regulation of some game sites that when covering the plot of a game to only detail the first hour or so of the game. Even if the game is old (as Suikoden 2 is) I seriously don't think that some people would be amused to have the entire story layed out in front of them here, that really defeats the point of the game.
 * Everything else though I completely agree with. The Critical Reception is indeed one of the easier ones to do, provided the sites are allowed to be used as sources, I believe, IGN, Gamespot, CNET and RottenTomatoes will have archived reviews and news of the game and other sites such as RPGamer and RPGdreamer should also have archived reviews although I'm unsure whenever they are classified as a reliable source though.
 * The True runes situation is a good idea, perhaps with a link to the page covering all of the True Runes (I believe I've seen it on wikipedia somewhere, forgive me for not linking it)
 * I'll be willing to help you on this, find me at my own talk page if needed. RBlowes 03:19, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Original Discussion
Sorry if this is bad, it's my first submission that isn't a simple edit. Feel free to correct any information, or delete anything unnecessary, or replace it with an article that is all totally rad and whatnot. Specifically, the direction of Jowston in relation to Toran may be off, and I didn't make any mention of it being the Scarlet Moon Empire(didn't want to deal with brackets, which I saw as the only viable option to put it in with the setup I have), or the last paragraph, which may not be worthy of mentioning. Or the thing about vastly improved graphics, the 'vast' probably falls under opinion. So, again, sorry for incorrect or bad information, but this game certainly deserves to have an article, and I can't be bothered to do research or be a good writer, or anything like that... --Frosteey 00:30, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

I vote yes on merging this article with the original Suikoden. It doesn't seem broad enough to stand on its own. --WillDarlock 20:12, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I would disagree, honestly. While this isn't the longest or most detailed articles Wikipedia has, it's fairly substantial, and I'm personally of the opinion that there's no reason to merge articles on two distinct games into one unless it's not possible to wring more than a stub out of one of them, which is clearly not the case here. – Seancdaug 20:15, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)


 * Disagree. After the pending revision, this article should be sufficient to stand on its own. Furthermore, there are individual pages for other games in the series already. ~ Seitori 11:47, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I added s'more stuff and fixed up some of the info as well as re-arranged it. I've also especially fixed the extremely confusing 'massive battle' section that had names of characters which would confuse non-players. Hopefully it is a little more comprehensible now. This is an article primarily for inquiring minds on the game so it should give a good overview first, followed by spoilers. I've yet to fix up the story section because it's pretty long and I'm not sure where to begin and how much to include yet. --Dinkybarrel

Merge
I'll have to agree with the merge. Or maybe create a List of Suikoden characters. --Zeno McDohl 00:47, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * There are currently very roughly 1000 characters in the Suikoden universe and that amount will only grow. Atleast half of those have well developed histories and profiles and those are being expanded all the time. If all Suikoden characters were to merge into a single document I'd predict that page would exceed the equivalent of 150 A4 pages full of information within a year, thus making it a most cumbersome page both to load up and read. There is quite simply just too damned much info about the Suikoden universe to just limit it to one page. Sure, Anita's page might be small at the moment but that will surely grow. Hopefully our Suikoden guru Blue Moon or similar pseudo-authoriry will start looking this way in due time and then "issues" like Anita's page will be solved. I've also noticed that merging pages together lowers the updating rate of the subject and makes it, if not harder, then atleast more annoying to navigate. All in all I can't find a single reason why merging would make anything better, which ultimately is the only thing the matters.(Djungelurban 01:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC))
 * See Notability (fiction). Non-notable minor characters should be in a "List of characters" as I proposed. --Zeno McDohl 01:02, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with Zeno McDohl, the list is a good idea: Move all the minor characters in one list and keep seperate articles on the main characters. If you want eleborate info on all characters in the game you should start your own wiki or start a wikibook on the subject. -- Koffieyahoo

I realise I'm late but since nothing has been done yet, let me put my two cents: I disagree. Character lists are all good for a reasonable amount of minor characters with bare tidbits of information. Suikoden has about five hundred with the stars alone, many of which have enough data to cover one screen each when kept to the most relevant details. Rina and Tessai's pages are horribly incomplete, Anita and Nina are both missing info as well. Just check out the notability in fiction list and you'll see an example of a minor character with enough information to warrant an article of his own.

Just for the record, most Suikoden character articles here are either awfully incomplete, awfully written, or ridden with fan speculation. If you want to decide which ones deserve their own articles, wait until they are completed (Something I may or may not finish doing). Ephyon 15:56, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that a reasonable course of action would be to create an article for the characters with just a few lines about them. Characters that have enough background and info to have their own article will have internal links in the said general characters page. I'd be happy to help with it if anyone else thinks it's a good idea. Crazyspoonkiller 05:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, sorry. I didn't see the 108 SoD link at the bottom of the page. Crazyspoonkiller 01:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * For the record if there's going to be a character section to this article it would be simplistic if only the major protagonists and antagonists were included (i.e. Riou, Jowy, Nanami, Luca Blight) as opposed to every single one who had some part to play or the list would get well out of hand. This stands for my point to disagree to merge the articles. RBlowes 10:38, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Neutral. See my discussion of characters in the update section above. ~ Seitori 11:41, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I have to ask this of everyone familiar with this work. What does it mean that there are "five hundred with the stars alone", are there really that many main characters in the game or series? Most television shows that run 100 episodes have barely 1000 named people, 965 of which don't even deserve mention on this encylopedia. I think it would be perferable for the notable people (not people mentioned in passing, or people who have little to nothing to do with the plot or backstory of the tale) to be placed directly into one list article that covers either each individual game or the entire series. 3 line articles with crufty "stats" sections don't really cut it (actual main characters should have their own articles if there is enough information to warrant a page). With that said, I say merge. Radagast83 08:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


 * What was ment by that is in each of the main Suikoden games there are technicly 108 "main" protagonists with a few more "main" then others: $$108 x 5 = 540$$. But this number needs to be adjusted for those characters that make repeat appearances, stars that can have more then one person on them, or unique circumstances. And this does not count the antagonists that do not join; characters that join, but do not have stars; characters from Suikoden Tactics; or "minor" characters that play large roles. And most, if not all of the Stars are notible enough and have enough information on them to warrant their own pages. (Justyn 04:32, 26 December 2006 (UTC))
 * I suppose it all depends on what one person considers notable and what another doesn't. While it does appear that there are that many characters that can be playable, I've seen many of the articles dealing with each character.  Many (and most) appear to be little more than one sentence summaries and very suspect (and unsourced) "stats" sections, in some cases it appears that the bulk of the articles are made up of the image. Having hundereds of stubs isn't helpful for anyone. I go back to my earlier comment about TV shows.  There are many many TV shows (I'll hazard to guess every single one ever made) which one could make a case that every single person should appear in their own article. Most TV shows don't have more than a half dozen to a dozen articles for its characters, and many more have omnibus articles covering anything from main to minor characters (without individual articles). At the very least there should be, if there isn't already, a list of characters from each game, and at such time as there is enough information for a particluar person (outside the one or two line stub), they should be spun off to their own article. Radagast83 06:47, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The big reason that many of the articles are so short is because there are so many. Several hundred articles are hard to write, quantity over quality looks to be what was done here. In fact, several characters that play pretty big roles, and should have five good sized paragraphs on them 'have nothing written about them, take Tai Ho for example, he plays semi-major roles in Suikoden I & Suikoden II; but what is written about him?

"Tai Ho is a character in Konami's role playing game Genso Suikoden and Suikoden II. He is a fisherman along with his oath brother, Yam Koo. Tai Ho uses a spear as his weapon."

He has this little, dispite the fact that his article would be as long as Yam Koo's. And Humphrey Mintz would have an article that would probably be longer, yet he has about what Tai Ho has: basicly nothing.

And I myself don't count the "stats" and pictures when looking at the content a page has. Barbarossa Rugner is around what I would consider to be a good rough minimum. Because save a few, most characters in the series have this amount of information, or more. Putting hundreds of characters that each have a large chunk of information on them into lists, with the stats, pictures, and templates would look something like this:

List of Suikoden major characters - A List of Suikoden major characters - B List of Suikoden major characters - C List of Suikoden major characters - D List of Suikoden major characters - E And et cetera.

But, I think that improving pages like this should be a higher concern then making more pages of that "quality". (Justyn 10:53, 26 December 2006 (UTC))
 * (I would have sworn that that page was FAR larger. (Justyn 12:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)))

Maybe we could merge the short articles (such as Hilda) to the Minor Characters page. Crazyspoonkiller 23:02, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * And then the page would have hundreds of entries. And most of the character pages are short because they are only a picture, some stats, and a header. Currently, most of them are just like that because noone has added all, or most of the information on the character. (Justyn 04:38, 29 December 2006 (UTC))

Merge - Entries like this should be part of a list until they have enough content to be a useful individual article. JohnnyMrNinja 07:47, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Plot
I'm basically going to finish it off tonight, when I get home. Trying to continue in the same fashion: if anyone wants to help, I left the chain of events, so ya can stay on track.) 74.12.12.15 18:49, 30 September 2006 (UTC) Joe Caron

Name and edits
Couple of things to note, there doesn't seem to be many references here also it may be worth noting that Riou isn't the canonical name of the protagonist at least I don't believe Konami have actually confirmed this as of so far. I'll check in to editing this later on. RBlowes 10:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

It isn't confirmed, but since it is the name that they used in the novel the fandom seems to use it at will. It is easily the most accepted variant beyond Hero II.


 * I think the use of Riou is fine as long as the article maintains the Riou link and mentions why it is used. I intend to continue its use in my overall revision.  ~ Seitori 11:44, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

First Section
Wouldn't it be reasonable to mention Riou's sister, Nanami, in the first section? I guess that part could use a rewrite. Lejman 06:45, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Merge of Character Rina
I just completed the merge of Character Rina into this article. The merge was outstanding since Aug 2006 and made its way on to the Wikipedia Backlog. Alan.ca 11:13, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The Rina section is completely out of place in this article; it doesn't make any sense right now. I'm forming a task force to focus on Suikoden and help deal with issues like these; if you'd like to help, check out User:Bwowen/Suikoden to see what I'm planning on doing and the beginnings of the TF. In the meantime, I would like to userfy the Rina content (move it to User:Bwowen/Suikoden/Rina) and save it there until the Task Force goes to work. Please let me know if you object. bwowen talk .contribs 21:18, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Tactical RPG?
Is this game a tactical RPG? The article mentions something of tactical grids, so I'm somewhat confused. SharkD 09:28, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The game (all Suikodens except Tactics, in fact) is a standard RPG, like Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest, but all of them have featured a tactical "minigame" (they are different between each game) that appears regularly at key points of the story and are required to be won to advance. If you played Final Fantasy 7, think of it as playing the Fort Condor minigame at some parts of the story. Zexen lowe (talk) 03:42, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Inconsistancies regarding main character name
The intro says "The player controls a silent protagonist whose name is chosen by the player". The characters section calls him "The unnamed protagonist of Suikoden II" which more or less agrees with the intro. Then suddenly the plot section, with no explanation, starts with "The game stars Riou, the protagonist" in total contradiction to the previous player chosen/unnamed statements. Either the intro and characters section should be rewritten to accommodate this name if it's official and used in the game, or maybe the plot section should be rewritten to remove references to this name if it's only used in outside sources. As it is it makes the article confusing, to suddenly give the character a name when earlier in the article it's stated he doesn't have one. 99.131.54.31 (talk) 19:39, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm half responsible for the current revision of the plot summary. I used the name Riou because that is what was being used before I worked on it. If the name is player-chosen, though, is there an official source for the name, similar to the case of Link? Larrythefunkyferret (talk) 04:41, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The source of the name "Riou" is the novelization of Suikoden 2, which was only released in Japan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.111.189.191 (talk) 23:41, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Not so silent?
Something I've found particularly odd: In Suikoden II, the main protagonist is listed as a silent protagonist, but you do choose his dialogue. Doesn't that subvert the typing entirely? He is speaking, and in fact you, the player directly controlling him, are choosing his dialogue and people are reacting to it. Chronomaster 06:29, 4 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chronomaster K (talk • contribs)
 * I don't think the phrase "silent protagonist" is ever accurate, but that's beside the point; is there any who would object to this line's removal? Larrythefunkyferret (talk) 06:14, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I've got a bit of an issue with it, honestly. I think "silent" in this usage is definitely a relative term, describing the fact that the protaganist never really offers anything other than responses to questions. Very often, as a matter of fact, he is completely silent, as characters such as Nanami offer up dialogue, responses, and reaction that you would expect the protagonist to make. If someone can come up with a better descriptor that demonstrates that the hero has a very different role in communication than others in the game, I'd be fine with it, but I'm not sure what else to put. Riskbreaker2987 (talk) 16:55, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, I did figure one out just now, and I'm going to go ahead and change the term over because it certainly is more accurate to call the protagonist in Suikoden II a 'Quiet Protagonist'. Chronomaster 07:06, 6 April 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chronomaster K (talk • contribs)

a small wrong part about the article
"with over 100 characters usable in combat and many more who move the plot forward."

thats wrong. true is that there are the 108 characters, but only like 65 of them are also usable in the combat while the others are shop owners in the players castle etc.

good day, GBK —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.245.48.224 (talk) 12:10, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

External links modified
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Some edits and citations
I have a couple of citations to add, and a few ideas for how we could improve this article.

We should add a sentence to the first graph of the lead section that mentions that the story is based on the Classical Chinese novel Outlaws of the Marsh by including 108 stars of destiny. Although Suikoden 1 is widely associated with the story, Maruyama actually planned the scenario of Suikoden 2 before writing Suikoden 1 as a prequel. Something like: "Based on the Classical Chinese novel Outlaws of the Marsh the game features a vast array of characters, with 108 recruitable characters, of which over 70 are playable."

We should consider revising the first sentence of the gameplay subsection to make it sound less awkward. Something like: "Suikoden II is a role-playing video game with strategic elements across three separate types of combat."

We should also add a sentence to the end of the first graph of the gameplay subsection to mention that players build a base or castle throughout the course of the game where they can sharpen weaponry, buy equipment and purchase consumable items. (The castle is referenced later in the section without proper explanation) Something like: "Once they acquire a castle through the course of the story, players can also sharpen weaponry and buy equipment there once the associated characters are recruited."

The fourth graph mentions that transferring save data from the first game enables returning characters to enter the fray. We can make this more precise by including the fact that they get stat boosts reflecting how the player used them in the first game. Something like: "Transferring save data from the first game enables returning characters to enter the fray with boosted stats and weapons that reflect how the player used them in the first game."

Lastly, consider taking out the last sentence of the second graph in the Plot subsection. There’s no other mention of the priestess Leknaat in the article, and the inclusion of that detail isn’t particularly important to the plot.

I also have a few citations to consider: In the last sentence of the Characters subsection it's mentioned that Gremio and the protagonist of the first game appear if the right conditions are met: http://suikoden.wikia.com/wiki/Tir_McDohl http://suikoden.wikia.com/wiki/Gremio

Possible citation for reception sub section where it says its regarded as one of the best RPGs outside of the Square Canon: https://kotaku.com/why-you-should-play-suikoden-ii-one-of-the-best-rpgs-e-1668857424

TrueNeutral14 (talk) 19:11, 2 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Hi there. To address one of the things you've mentioned - On Wikipedia, you're generally not able to use wikias as sources. They fail WP:USERG - basically, anyone can change them at any time, so they do little in the way of actual verification of the content. You can look at WP:VG/S as far as a guide for sources that are generally usable and unusable. As you'll probably note, Kotaku is generally seen as a usable source at least.  Sergecross73   msg me  20:30, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Source

 * https://web.archive.org/web/20000304083022/http://headline.gamespot.com/news/97_08/12_suikoden/index.html
 * https://web.archive.org/web/20000303040814/http://headline.gamespot.com/news/97_08/11_suikoden/index.html

Release date
The release date of August 31, 1999 in North America is likely incorrect. The official Konami website at the time listed September 7. That may have been delayed, as GameFAQs listed a release date of September 29 from that time period. Moby Games continues to use a September 29 release date Scouring through the Usenet group alt.games.video.sony-playstation, discussion about playing the game did not start until early October, and posts were found discussing the game in mid-September like it hadn't yet been released. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sieffre79 (talk • contribs) 21:08, 8 November 2021 (UTC)