Talk:Surrogate partner

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2021 and 8 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Nmk9929. Peer reviewers: Zguo24, Eanneyrey.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 09:07, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Move to Sexual Surrogate
The article should be under the correct name sexual surrogate instead under the abbreviation sex surrogate which is likely to be misunderstood. --Diskriminierung (talk) 09:41, 19 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Google Scholar: "Sexual Surrogate" - 259 hits, "Sex Surrogate" - 83 hits.


 * Ghits: "Sexual Surrogate" - 319,000 hits, "Sex Surrogate" - 45,900 hits.


 * Makes sense to me. Atom (talk) 14:51, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Legality of sex surrogacy.
The article says that sex surrogacy is legal since 2003 in all states if done under a sex therapist's supervision. I don't believe this is correct and certainly the article cited in support of this says nothing of the kind. deisenbe (talk) 16:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm removing the section on legality: as you pointed out, it doesn't have an actual citation; it strains credibility; and it has the potential to mislead (example). See this comment for a researched argument that paid sexual surrogacy is illegal in at least one state. Rebbing (talk) 18:12, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Lead
MOS:LEAD says that the lead should be a summary of the main content from the body, but the current version of the lead contains exclusively information that isn't in the body at all. I'm moving most of the lead to a section I will call "Overview." As the article improves, the lead can be added to, but I'd suggest waiting until there's a major overhaul with sources before re-adding things to the lead. Almost none of the current sources are independent, reliable sources. Most are self-published by people affiliated with and/or making money off of the topic. PermStrump (talk) 11:28, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Merge with prostitution
I don't see any difference so far, unless you are suggesting that there is no money involved ??? the costs aren't explained either. Surely a piece of the legality of surracy and the legality of prostitution would .. clarify what this is about ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.190.176.147 (talk) 11:54, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
 * The difference, as I understand it, is that sexual surrogacy is primarily intended to be therapeutic. Rebb  ing  16:09, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
 * There are purported differences. Like said, sexual surrogacy is supposedly therapeutic, which readers will choose to believe or to think it's bunk, but there are enough reliable sources that cover "sexual surrogacy" as its own topic that it meets general notability guidelines. In order to reflect the reliable sources, it makes the most sense for it to be a separate article.  —PermStrump  ( talk )  04:46, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

History of sexual surrogate therapy
I came to this page because of an essay on NPR, in which an elderly, gay man said that he was required to undergo sexual surrogacy therapy as a "cure" for his homosexuality. I believe this took place in the early 1970's, but I don't know where. I was hoping to find something more about the history of this therapy.

It would be helpful if somebody could add a section about the history of this therapy and its less reputable applications. 174.17.50.198 (talk) 19:06, 3 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Hello! Do you have a link to the NPR story? Where was this? Who required it? Homosexuality notwithstanding, I find it challenging to believe that the authorities anywhere would require someone to pay for sex. Rebb  ing  19:22, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Rename to Surrogate partner
Almost all surrogates prefer the term Surrogate partner. I have begun to work in this field and have been trained by people with decades of experience. The only research I can find shows that less than 15% of the time surrogate spend with clients involves sex. Many surrogate clients have achieved 25 years of age and still have had very unsatisfactory/limited or no sexual experience (so called mid life virgins) or they have experienced sexual trauma which has made them unwilling or unable to relate sexually. Equating a surrogate to a prostitute seem akin to comparing the Le Cordon Bleu (a world renowned culinary school) to a street corner hot dog vendor. Surrogates share experiences that teach skills, and attitudes under the supervision of talk therapists in the hope that the client will blossom and be able to go out and relate socially and sexually in voluntary association with others. Many surrogate clients do not lack offers for sexual connection they lack the confidence skills and attitudes to accept them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.56.5.149 (talk) 07:29, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

I would love to revisit the dialogue in which a change of "sexual surrogate" to "surrogate partner" was proposed. Association with prostitution aside, the term "surrogate partner" is now the industry standard used by the major professional organizations. The term "sexual surrogate" does have historical relevance and should not be omitted from this page but is currently outdated. This shift in terminology is also especially relevant because it helps to further refine definitions of wha|t a surrogate partner is. --Bpgibney (talk) 12:45, 2 October 2017 (UTC)


 * , can you explain how you popped up at this barely-watched article out of nowhere? Do read WP:Sock. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:45, 3 October 2017 (UTC)


 * , I have been practicing Surrogate Partner Therapy for over 15 years. Surrogate Partner Therapy is the correct terminology as this therapy is related to education, not entertainment. Also, most of the work revolves around social skills training, mindfulness, and body acceptance, not sexual interaction. Although that may be a part of it.

Requested move 17 September 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Not moved per consensus. — usernamekiran (talk)  15:44, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Sexual surrogate → Surrogate Partner Therapy – "Surrogate Partner Therapy" more accurately describes the topic being addressed. Though the term "sex surrogate" has been commonly used, most surrogate partners prefer the term "surrogate partner." In either case, "Surrogate Partner Therapy" is the modality under which such persons work. This title also invites more contributions; the subject is not just the people doing the work, but the therapeutic process as a whole. Emikokoyo (talk) 01:58, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose, the page is presently at the common name and has been stable since 2006 and, although it should be made into one, it's indicative of common name that the term 'Surrogate Partner Therapy' hasn't yet been made into a redirect for this page. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:19, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * p.s. The terms Surrogate Partner or Surrogate partner have not been made into redirects either, as of this writing (although they should be), another indication that the page is at its common name. Another aspect is that the name was the original name introduced by Masters & Johnson. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:22, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:Common name. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:40, 17 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Support Masters and Johnson used the term "Partner Surrogate." "Sex surrogate" or ("sexual surrogate") is an older term that is now used mainly by media looking to tantalize. Books published more recently use the term "surrogate partner."  Emikokoyo (talk) 03:17, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * And again, Partner Surrogate or Partner surrogate are, at this writing, red links (which should also be directed here), indicating that it's not a common name or it would have picked up a redirect at some point. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:39, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose What someone "prefer" doesn't really matter very often, the current name seems to be the common name.★Trekker (talk) 17:55, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Actually 'Sex surrogate' seems most common from all of the film, book, and sourced titles. 'Sexual' seems an odd phrasing of the common name. Randy Kryn (talk) 18:30, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose – we are not in the business of making up new proper names. Dicklyon (talk) 01:32, 20 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

I'd like to continue discussing this potential move. As someone noted above, the current term "sexual surrogate" seems strange considering the more common terms "sex surrogate". Do others have evidence to support using the term "sexual surrogate"? Also, I believe the culture, practice, and popular understanding of Surrogate Partner Therapy is changing. Maybe it's premature to change the name now, but certainly there are factors pointing to the relevance of a move. Emikokoyo (talk) 20:36, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Change title of article and internal language from Sexual Surrogate to Surrogate Partner Therapist
Opening this discussion.

https://www.surrogatepartner.us/blog/dont-call-me-ss.htm The Leading Authority (talk) 22:00, 4 January 2024 (UTC)


 * The article is euphemistic enough as it is. The reader should not have to divine by guesswork that the profession described here in decidedly gentle terms involves the exchange of money for sexual intercourse.   Foxmilder (talk) 14:02, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 28 January 2024

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Surrogate partner. Consensus on the alternate proposed title. – robertsky (talk) 05:48, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Sexual surrogate → Surrogate partner therapist – This is a procedural nomination on behalf of User:The Leading Authority who was instructed at User talk:IAmChaos to start a Requested move but moved unilaterally instead.I am starting this process as a nominally neutral nominator, but I may comment at some point.That user made the unilateral move with the following rationale: Archaic terminology, by consensus no longer accepted in the field. There could be more information on User talk:The Leading Authority, including a long list of links. —Alalch E. 20:24, 28 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 12:31, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: WikiProject Psychology has been notified of this discussion. —Alalch E. 20:53, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: WikiProject Sexology and sexuality has been notified of this discussion. —Alalch E. 20:53, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: WikiProject Disability has been notified of this discussion. —Alalch E. 20:53, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I apologize if I misunderstood the direction. I did not mean to deviate from the recommendation. Based on my interpretation, I honestly believed that I was following the suggestion. I appreciate you opening up the conversation to clarify.
 * The term "sex surrogate" is now considered outdated and disrespectful, having been replaced by the more appropriate and inclusive term "surrogate partner therapist." This change is motivated, in part, by the realization that the sexual phase of therapy is not necessary for the vast majority of clients, exceeding 90%. The evolution in understanding and practices within this field, since its initial research by Masters and Johnson in the 1960s, underscores the need for updated and more accurate terminology.
 * Several other reasons contribute to the shift in terminology:
 * Modern Therapeutic Practices:
 * The understanding that the sexual phase of therapy is not a universal requirement for successful outcomes has reshaped modern therapeutic practices. The term "surrogate partner therapist" reflects this broader understanding and emphasizes a more diverse and client-centered approach to therapy.
 * Acknowledging Changes in the Field:
 * Over time, there have been significant changes in how the work in this field is both understood and practiced. This evolution, over the 70 years since the initial research and nomenclature, necessitates a shift in terminology to accurately represent the current state of the profession.
 * Adapting to Societal Norms:
 * Language evolves as societal norms change, and adopting more neutral and inclusive terms is a part of this evolution. The replacement of terms for other professions where archaic terms eventually were seen as having a negative connotation include careers such as "receptionist" "secretary," "stewardess," and "postman" with more appropriate terms are examples of precedents for such a need.
 * Respecting Individual Sensitivities:
 * The shift from "sex surrogate" to "surrogate partner therapist" is driven by a desire to avoid potential offense or alienation associated with outdated and stigmatizing language. Using respectful and preferred terminology contributes to a more welcoming and understanding environment, for therapists, clients, and society alike.
 * Creating an Inclusive Environment:
 * As a responsible media platform, Wikipedia has a role in promoting inclusivity and sensitivity and also to staying relevant. Updating terminology to reflect contemporary understanding ensures that information is presented in a manner that respects the diverse experiences and perspectives of individuals involved in or seeking these therapeutic services.
 * Wikipedia, as a source of information for a global audience, should be diligent in updating its terminology to align with current best practices and societal norms. While historical terms may be referenced for context, using outdated and outmoded language can perpetuate misconceptions and hinder the creation of an inclusive and respectful environment. Adopting preferred terminology is essential for accurately representing the field and for fostering a more understanding and inclusive community. The Leading Authority (talk) 02:46, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @The Leading Authority is correct that the title "sex surrogate" is outdated and misleading." When the practice was introduced by Masters and Johnson in their book "Human Sexual Inadequacy" (1970), they used the term "partner surrogate." Although "sex surrogate" was commonly used historically, in recent decades the surrogate partner community is claiming the right to choose our own title, rather than tolerating a title that for too many years has been imposed on us, over our objections, from others. The vast majority of surrogate partners use the title "surrogate partner," although "surrogate partner therapist" could be added as an alternate. The name of the modality in which surrogate partners practice is called "Surrogate Partner Therapy." Andrew Heartman (talk) 05:07, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I concur with @Andrew Heartman that "sex surrogate" imprecise, causes confusion about the scope and purpose of this form of work, and is no longer used by most practitioners or the other professionals they collaborate or consult with (at least in English-speaking countries; I cannot speak for other settings).
 * I also agree with @Andrew Heartman that "surrogate partner" is more commonly used today to describe practitioners than "surrogate partner therapist." The modality is termed "surrogate partner therapy (SPT)" but most practitioners use "surrogate partner" to avoid confusion with talk therapists (i.e psychotherapists, professional counselors, etc.), with whom they regularly collaborate.
 * For the same reason, a better title might actually be "surrogate partner therapy," describing the modality, because it is the most used term. Jeannie Miller (she, her) (talk) 19:17, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Additional sources might include:
 * https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/12/style/surrogate-partners.html
 * https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/9781003314660-4/navigating-touch-fredrick-zal
 * https://digitalcommons.unf.edu/jcssw/vol1/iss2/6/
 * https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/sex-surrogate-therapy Jeannie Miller (she, her) (talk) 19:30, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @The Leading Authority- Thank you for recognizing that the term "sexual surrogate" is outdated and for advocating for a change. The term "sexual surrogate" is misleading and outdated, as many clients pursue this kind of therapy for issues that have nothing to do with sex.
 * I agree with @andrew heartman that "surrogate partner" is the most widely accepted term used by surrogates and the psychotherapists they work with. While "sexual surrogate" can be seen all over the internet, it's a term mostly used by the media to sensationalize this work. Erikadavian (talk) 19:43, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The Surrogate Partner Code of Conduct, created by the Surrogate Partner Collective in 2020, https://www.surrogatepartnercollective.org/sp-code-of-conduct, has a list of standards that guide the ethical conduct of surrogate partners. One of these standards, #8, includes the following: "Surrogates shall not use, or knowingly allow to be used, the terms “sex surrogate,” or “sex surrogacy,” and, when appropriate, will educate others about why they are misleading and therefore harmful." Andrew Heartman (talk) 05:21, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
 * https://www.surrogatetherapy.org/what-is-surrogate-partner-therapy
 * https://www.surrogatepartner.us/blog/dont-call-me-ss.htm
 * https://www.businessinsider.com/surrogate-partner-therapy-sexual-abuse-treatment-healing-intimacy-issues-2023-9
 * https://www.bpr.org/show/embodied/2023-10-06/surrogate-partner-therapy-sex-intimacy-embodiment
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mykwX8SkgUs
 * https://www.doveandwolf.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAh8OtBhCQARIsAIkWb69UW_vNl91K9KcVDce1nIm74hOTJMn7pU7EDBmhbjWX8ur2rcGpP4MaAoLEEALw_wcB
 * https://www.briangibney.org/surrogate-partner-therapy
 * https://www.dcsurrogatepartnership.com/
 * https://socialsci.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Gender_Studies/Sexuality_the_Self_and_Society_(Ruhman_Bowman_Jackson_Lushtak_Newman_and_Sunder)/15%3A_Sex(uality)_Work_that_Engages_with_the_Body/15.03%3A_Surrogate_Partner_Therapy_(SPT)
 * https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1104532/
 * https://www.jeanniesurrogatetherapy.com/#spt
 * https://www.surrogatepartnercollective.org/our-team#:~:text=Eileen%20Chao%2C%20MA&text=She%20is%20also%20a%20Certified,systems%20and%20cis%20hetero%20normativity.
 * https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a36211164/surrogate-partner-therapy-eileen-chao-interview/
 * https://eileenchao.com/surrogate-partner-therapy/
 * https://www.wweek.com/culture/2019/10/29/surrogate-therapy-takes-a-hands-on-approach-to-overcoming-sexual-trauma-up-to-and-including-intercourse/
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYyhGeL8hAY
 * https://www.surrogatetherapy.org/
 * https://www.sessionswitherika.com/
 * https://www.psychotherapynetworker.org/article/surrogate-partner-therapy/
 * https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24261932/.
 * https://www.getsurrogatepartnertherapy.com/ The Leading Authority (talk) 18:55, 24 January 2024 (UTC) The Leading Authority (talk) 23:10, 24 January 2024 (UTC) The Leading Authority (talk) 03:08, 29 January 2024 (UTC)


 *  Oppose  (Edit: changing to neutral for now, given the option of another name for the page which should be further discussed, Surrogate partner), the page is presently at the most recognizable common name, and has been stable since 2006 (although 'Sex surrogate' seems most common from the film, book, and sourced titles). Randy Kryn (talk) 12:24, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
 * In 2015, I was contacted by a journalist who said she was writing a piece about male “sexual surrogates” and was looking for individuals to interview. I told I would not be a part of any article that described me as a “sex surrogate” or a “sexual surrogate,” because this terminology is inaccurate and misleading. I said I would only participate if they guaranteed to call me and my colleagues “surrogate partners.” The journalist agreed to this, however when the article came out, the offensive term was actually IN THE TITLE. When I pointed out that she had not kept our agreement and that I felt betrayed, she said that “’sex surrogate’ is likely to bring more traffic than ‘surrogate partner.’” She also said she would add an editor’s note to the article. You can see that article with the editor’s note here: [Https://www.salon.com/2015/05/26/i&#x20;have&#x20;a&#x20;regular&#x20;9&#x20;5&#x20;job&#x20;the&#x20;life&#x20;of&#x20;a&#x20;male&#x20;sex&#x20;surrogate&#x20;partner/ https://www.salon.com/2015/05/26/i_have_a_regular_9_5_job_the_life_of_a_male_sex_surrogate_partner/]
 * As this illustrates, sensational terminology is often preferred over accurate terminology by the media. I supposed that’s understandable if the objective is to get a lot of attention/clicks/ad revenue. But here, the moderators at Wikipedia seem to want to oppose a change to accurate terminology because of the presence of inaccurate terminology, apparently as determined by a google search. Is the objective of Wikipedia to promulgate existing terminology, or do you value accuracy? The only reason it's been "stable since 2006" is because attempts to change it have been rejected, so the petitioners gave up. This time we won't give up. Andrew Heartman (talk) 03:43, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks, good points. Surrogate partner seems the choice of editors in this discussion so far, and has the added boost of not being an unfamiliar term. Do you have an accuracy objection to 'Surrogate partner' as the page title? Randy Kryn (talk) 04:06, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * No objection whatsoever, thank you. "Surrogate Partner" is more common and accurate than "Surrogate Partner Therapist." The therapeutic modality known as Surrogate Partner Therapy requires a collaboration between a surrogate partner and a talk therapist/clinician on behalf of their mutual client. There are two professionals: a surrogate partner and a therapist. The title "surrogate partner therapist" could lead to confusion between those two roles. Andrew Heartman (talk) 04:17, 30 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Support, for changing the name of the page to "Surrogate Partner." The title “sex surrogate” is outdated and inaccurate. Allow me to give an analogy to illustrate why it is inaccurate. Suppose you have a professional chef who was trained and is experienced in preparing a wide variety of appetizers and entrees, and also spent about 10% of their time making pastries. It would be misleading and inaccurate to call that chef a “pastry chef,” because you are taking something that is a minor part of their work and putting it in their title. Calling me a “sex surrogate” would be misleading and inaccurate in the same way. It creates a misleading impression about the nature of the work, and this is harmful because it makes it less accessible to those who need it.
 * Andrew Heartman (talk) 04:26, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @Erikadavian @Creatingsafety @Jeannie Miller (she, her)
 * I don't want to openly make an open accusation, but I find it incredibly suspicious that all of your accounts very first edits, or first edits in several years is on this discussion reaching the same conclusion. Not to mention this was done all around the same time, as can be seen here, here and here. Is there a reason for this? TheBritinator (talk) 18:46, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @TheBritinator, if your concern is regarding Wikipedia's policies on sockpuppets, bots, or the like, I can confirm that we are all independent people who are knowledgeable on the subject of the article. Personally, I've been a longtime user of Wikipedia and long thought about creating an account and contributing to an article here or there, and I was inspired to finally do so because of this proposal on a topic on which I am knowledgeable. Jeannie Miller (she, her) (talk) 21:46, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The main concern would be about "meatpuppetry" — inviting other people who share your view (such as fellow members of an organization that, as noted above, prohibits its members from using the term "sex surrogate") to come to Wikipedia to "vote" in a discussion, which is considered disruptive. SilverLocust [//w.wiki/8xwX &#x1f0cf;] 💬 22:37, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * "Consensus is determined, not by counting votes, but rather by the “merits of the arguments.” Therefore, reasoned arguments should be considered, including this one: There are a growing number of surrogate partners who do not even include sex in their work. Examples: https://eileenchao.com/surrogate-partner-therapy/ https://humanconnectioncoach.com/  https://www.getsurrogatepartnertherapy.com/are-you-eligible-1
 * If you were to call someone like this a “sex surrogate,” you would be doing more than “taking something that is a minor part of their work and putting it in their title,” you would be taking something that’s not even a part of their work at all and putting it in the title! That would be even more inaccurate and misleading. Someone who only knows of this work through a web search is not going to understand how it is actually practiced. It’s important to have input from those who have direct experience of it. Honestly I don’t see how it can be ethical, or even acceptable, to have an article about a class of people while rejecting input from the very people the article is about. Andrew Heartman (talk) 04:58, 31 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Support for changing the name of the page to "Surrogate Partner." The title “sex surrogate” is archaic and misleading. "Sex surrogate" does not in any way represent the work I do as a surrogate partner.
 * MeetMichelleRenee (talk) 17:59, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Support Surrogate partner. More concise than Surrogate partner therapist per WP:CRITERIA. FOARP (talk) 13:21, 13 February 2024 (UTC)