Talk:Tengwar/Archive 1

CSS Font?
Isn't it possible for a wikipedia page to use a CSS font in articles such as this one? There are some free tengwar fonts available and it would not require the user to install it locally. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gianmariot2 (talk • contribs) 21:02, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅ I think this might actually be a good idea. Also, for example Safari cannot access locally installed fonts anymore (for security reasons), so Safari users would just see replacement glyphs even if they have the font locally installed. --SynConlanger (talk) 10:29, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I fear this is not possible. There are mw:Extension:TemplateStyles, but they do not allow for font embedding. There is the mw:Universal Language Selector, but I do not think it is intended for cases like this one. Another problem is that there is no standard for encoding the tengwar. --mach &#x1f648;&#x1f649;&#x1f64a; 12:49, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I see. That's a pity. It's true that there is no standard, but that would be easily solved by enforcing the Unicode proposal for Tengwar text on Wikipedia pages. But if font embedding is not possible, it doesn't matter. :( --SynConlanger (talk) 12:56, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Tengwar sample
The image depicting the first line of the Human Rights is completely wrong from the start: the tengwar is wrongly used since it's using the runes to tranliterate the english text on a per character basis; the tengwar were created, instead, as a phonetical symbol set. I suggest the removal of this image and the composition of a new one, properly composed. Mornatur Ormacil 13:31, 26 November 2010 (UTC)


 * No, the tengwar were not created as a phonetical set. They were created as an alphabet. By virtue of their alphabetic nature, they may be used phonemically or orthographically. There are abundant English tengwar texts by J. R. R. Tolkien where he wrote orthographically, for instance DTS 5, DTS 10, DTS 13, DTS 14, DTS 45, DTS 62. The writing of that image is largely based on DTS 5, which may well be one of the best known English tengwar texts, albeit certainly not the longest. And, of course, the tengwar are no runes. -- machᵗᵃˡᵏ 22:18, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

-They are NOT an alphabet! Read the appendix! The tengwar is a chart, and is used to write english in a pseudo-alphabetic fashion. You do not write "t-h-e" or "th-e" for the word "the" but instead, "dh-e." Also, the sample at the beginning of the section is incorrect. It says "t-e-g-a-r." tengwar would be written "t-e-ng-w-a-r" or "t-e-n-g-w-a-r," using the bar tehtar to mean a nasal before the consonant (g). - — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.42.189.116 (talk) 19:14, 18 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Any script where individual letters represent individual sounds is an alphabet. That is the common definition of the word alphabet. The organization in a chart does not change this.


 * The sample at the beginning of the article is perfectly correct. It shows the word tengwar written according to traditional Quenya orthography. That is adequate, because tengwar is a Quenya word. In the traditional Quenya orthography, the letter ungwe, which you have read as g, reads really as ngw. That is also why it is called ungwe. --mach 🙈🙉🙊 21:39, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

-Please compare the 4th word on line 1, whose English translation is "All human beings are," with the 2nd word on line 4: "They are endowed with." Both words are spelled and pronounced the same, and so should have the same Tengwar translation regardless of mode. The first uses an orthographic match, using script equivalents of the letters a-r-e; however the second appears to be a phonemic spelling of 'ar. Due to this inconsistency I intend to upload a new image. LMO — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.113.12.166 (talk) 06:16, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
 * There is a difference in pronunciation in British English: in “are born”, the word “are” is pronounced /ɑː/, whereas it is pronounced /ɑːr/ in “are endowed” due to the phenomenon called linking R. Tolkien represented this difference in pronunciation by using óre when there is no linking R and rómen when there is a linking R, cf. the different spellings of “Shire” without linke R in “Shire reckoning” and with linking R in “Shire and” in [DTS 45], [DTS 48] and [DTS 49]. --mach &#x1f648;&#x1f649;&#x1f64a; 07:33, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Er, you've just joined a 2013 discussion. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:57, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Misleading Link
The link below the picture (in English) is misleading, because it leads people to believe that the Tengwar script shown in the image may also be represented in the English language. Instead, that link points you to the English Language wiki article.
 * I've clarified it. -Aranel (" Sarah ") 21:45, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Broken Links

 * The link http://www.geocities.com/realteng/ appears to be broken to me.  Jan 20th, '05
 * http://home.student.uu.se/jowi4905/fonts/tengtelc/ (Tengwar Telcontar Unicode font) appears to be broken too... Feb 5th, '08
 * Fixed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alatius (talk • contribs) 08:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Abugida?
re the tengwar an abugida? -- Error

No. However, the tengwar mode for Quenya is an abjad. -- arj


 * There is, however, an abugida mode for Quenya. J. 'mach' wust 16:21, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Where can I find that? I mean, it's in the Tengwar Textbook, but did Tolkien use it?-- megA (talk) 14:41, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The Moria-gate inscription is full alphabet. The style with 'diacritics', used for English on title pages and for the Black Speech on the Ring, is alphasyllabary; our article abugida says it's not an abugida unless there's a way to mark a consonant as not having an inherent vowel.  I don't know why arj says abjad, unless because the (strangely complex) mark for the most common vowel is often omitted. —Tamfang (talk) 18:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Picture?
There really ought to be pictures of the tengwar here. Anyone up for making some out of the free tengwar fonts? -- arj

Copyright Status?

 * What would the copyright status of this be: Proposal to encode Tengwar in Plane 1 of ISO/IEC 10646-2? ESR used it in his Esperanto mode so I suspect it's public domain or some fairly loose license. General Wesc 02:33, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Image
I found 17 seperate errors in the image, probably because it was transliterated by the computer (it's like Babelfish with letters). Óre and rómen mixed up, long vowels not represented, clusters represented as seperate tengwar, etc. Don't even get me started on the diphthongs. I'd be willing to make a corrected image, however. Should I do another one with the fonts, or a hand-written example? --HunterX 04:39, 13 May 2004 (UTC)


 * i'm aware of the errors :-( i just haven't had the time yet to fix them! If you want to take a try at it, please do! Anárion 08:15, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

I have updated J. 'mach' wust's picture (which by the way is not the one mentioned above) with a similar one using the font Tengwar Telcontar instead, which I think is more typographically polished, and more similar to Tolkien's style of writing. I have also made some changes to the transcription, some of which are rather arbitrary (like the spelling of equal), and some which I think are more correct (free). However, I am by no means experienced with transcribing English into Tengwar, so please check for errors. Alatius 11:44, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm, I was probably mistaken in my transcription of endowed. I'm looking into how to upload a corrected version. (I'm a newbie here on Wikipedia.) Alatius 12:39, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


 * No, the image criticized above was another one, I created my one much later. I'd ask you to use the same transcription of equal I've taken, since Tolkien has transcribed all known instances of qu in this way; also, the final r in are (endowed) and in ...other (in) should be transcribed with the letter rómen, not óre, because the transcription of r is sensitive to the following sound even if it is in another word; and then, it is preferrable to transcribe the e of the ending -er in ...other and brother... not with an acute above the r, but with a dot below the preceding letter, since the former is predominantly found in manuscripts that ought to be written by dwarves, and dwarves are said to have a very bad skill in orthography. Your variants of free and ...hood are all right. You haven't corrected endowed yet, have you? The dot should be placed below the w. ― j. 'mach' wust | ✑ 17:37, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your comments; I stand corrected on all points - except possibly on other and brother. I chose the acute since the e is not silent in these words (like it is in herein, hope, some). I was under the impression that the dot below the tengwa is used in the phonemic modes to represent schwa, but not so in the orthographic mode, which is used in this image. To use the acute thus seems to me as the right decision. But please convince me that I'm wrong! Which are these manuscripts written by dwarves that you mentioned?


 * And no, I haven't updated the picture yet. As it turns out, since I have just now created an account, I am not yet entrusted to replace pictures (not even those I myself uploaded to begin with). I will replace it when I gain this right, supposedly in a couple of days. Alatius 20:15, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I updated the picture today, incorporating most of your corrections. However, I retain my transcription of other and brother... for the time being. Alatius 23:53, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * You may perfectly consider the e in other, brother to be silent, if you assume that what you pronounce in the second syllables of these words is not the e, but rather the r. The English language allows syllables not to have any vowel, but only a consonant. Other samples are middle, sudden, rhythm—the latter even written without the e. The supposedly dwarvish manuscripts I referred to were DTS 13 (and 14), whereas the non-dwarvish manuscripts (where words such as brother, other are rather written with a dot below) are DTS 10, 45, 48, 49. If I'm not mistaken, then the mentioning of the faulty orthography of the dwarves was in an essay in The Peoples of Middle-earth. ― j. 'mach' wust | ✑ 12:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an expert in Tengwar so there's quite a few parts that look strange, but I'm not sure if it's just because I've never encountered this particular way of writing it before. There's a couple of things that I'm pretty sure are incorrect, though, so I figured I'd point it out: - The 'are' in "human beings are" and the 'are' in "they are endowed" are inconsistent. One uses the romen while the other ore. I believe either are correct depending on stylistic choices, but using both at once wouldn't be. - In the cases for the word 'and' the shorthand, there shouldn't be the little dot thing that I forgot what it's called underneath according to most sources I've run across. It's simply formed by omitting the vowel. (Tengwar Textbook is one reference; found at http://www.geocities.com/tengwar2001/pubs.htm). Shadowcheets 20:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The thing is that the sample is not based on the Tengwar Textbook but on tengwar samples by some professor Tolkien. He used áre and rómen alternatively depending on the following sound, and he used a dot for the and-abbreviation. -- j. 'mach' wust ☛ ☏ 19:08, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * With the ore/romen, I just realized that what is being done is ignoring the silent E altogether and using the R-rule as normal for the word after that, which I've never seen done before, but then again, the whole use regarding Rs before silent Es are a little fuzzy at best. Status quo, then, I guess. However, I don't recall ever seeing it with the dot for the 'and', really, but I might be missing something. http://www.geocities.com/tengwar2001/ISS-200P.zip contains primary sources for Tengwar and you can note that in the English transcriptions, such as ISS-3, there's no dot above the 'and' markers.Shadowcheets 20:31, 10 September 2007 (UTC)


 * For the r-letters, have a look at Tolkien's larger English tengwar texts, for instance DTS 49 or DTS 23. The dot below the and-abbreviation is seen in DTS 4/5 which should be one of the best known tengwar texts if we assume that the Lord of the Rings is one of Tolkien's best known works. What you mention are certainly no primary sources but secondary transcripts. They may have errors (and I thought they had). And anyway, the Mellonath Daeron index is more complete. -- j. 'mach' wust ☛ ☏ 07:45, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Tengwar and the Latin alphabet
Again, the Tengwar modes are far far greater in magnitude than any differences between Latin languages. The Tengwar are just a set of signs that you can assign any values to like to. With Latin orthographies, most letters have sounds similar to those used in Latin. There are usually one or two variations, perhaps more, but there's no orthography that jettisons the Latin sound values entirely and starts again, like Tengwar modes do. Morwen - Talk 21:10, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Most tengwar modes are more or less based on how the tengwar are assigned to sounds for Quenya or Sindarin too. Latin-based orthographies vary widely: check out English, French, Pinyin, romaji, and !Xóõ. Trying to read one as another out loud results in gibberish.   &mdash; Gwalla | Talk 02:31, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * What is more, the one or two variations that some tengwar can have are always regular, corresponding to the témar/tyeller ratio. I'd rather inlcude that note on the variability more below where témar and tyeller are discussed, after all since that variability is not a distinctive feature of the tengwar script, but is also found in any other alphabetic script used for more than just one language. The variability of the Latin alphabet is, other than the variability of the tengwar, highly arbitrary, depending only on the history of the different languages. J. 'mach' wust 11:55, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Personally, I was happy with the version that removed the mention of the Latin alphabet altogether. It's not really relevant to the article.   &mdash; Gwalla | Talk 21:14, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I agree. It's not a characteristic of the tengwar script. What do you think, Morwen? J. 'mach' wust 12:59, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Which tengwar mode "jettisons the letters and starts again"? The older Eldarin modes (classical Quenya and Beleriandic Sindarin) use e.g. the calmatéma for velars, not for palatal(veolar)s, and the quessetéma for labialized velars, not for velars. The tyeller, however, remain basically unchanged (for the classical Quenya andotyelle and thúletyelle see below). This is comparable to the use of |t, d, n| for dentals in French but for alveolars in English.


 * The difference between the andotyelle prenasalized in classical Quenya and not prenasalized in the other modes is comparable to the difference between the Latin letters |p, t, k/c| aspirated in English but not aspirated in French. It's systematically slightly different pronunciations. Of course, the difference between [mb] and [b] might seem huge to us who distinguish the two, but to someone who distinguishes aspirated [t_h] from unaspirated [t] this difference will seem equally huge (or small).


 * The differences between |j| in Spanish and in English or between |z| in German and in English or between |y| in Czech and in English or between |u| in French and in English or between |th| in English and in French are comparable to the different uses of some of the óretyelle letters in (or to the classical Quenya thúletyelle): It's arbitrary differences. Not even to mention the very different uses of the acute in French, Hungarian, and Spanish, or the 'two points above' (diaeresis or umlaut) in English and German, etc. J. 'mach' wust 13:38, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * The interesting thing about the Tengwar is its alienness and constructed nature, both within and without the mythology. Unlike the Latin, Greek whatever alphabets, where sound values have ended up associated with random letterforms, Tengwar presents a grid of symbols that can be used in any manner the user sees fit.  It was designed by Feanor (Tolkien) as a systematic system.


 * The difference between say, Beleriandic Sindarin and Quenya modes are pretty huge in my book. Certainly there are conventions, like dental=col1, labial=col2, etc, but to focus on the conventions would be misleading.   In particular, I draw your attention to the nasals.  Quenya has voiced nasals on row 5, Sindarin has them on row 6!  And look at the assignment of  and  on row 6 in Quenya.  Rather random.  It is patent nonsense to say the modes bear strong resemblance to Latin as you were doing.  I was attempting to illustrate its special features and note its inherent differentness  in comparison.  Morwen - Talk 21:13, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * It's equally wrong to say that they bear no resemblance to Latin. Frankly, the comparison to Latin does not clarify anything about the Tengwar. BTW, that's not patent nonsense either.   &mdash; Gwalla | Talk 02:59, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I haven't claimed any strong resemblance, I've just said that the tengwar modes are just as different from each other than the Latin script 'modes'. Consider the letter |x|: In Catalan it represents the sound /S/, but in English the sounds /ks/. That's at least as 'rather random' as classical Quenya /r/ vs. Beleriandic Sindarin /n/, and even more random than classical Quenya /v/ vs. Sindarin /m/ (by means of phonetic features). Also, it may be noteworth that Beleriandic Sindarin óre and vala are the only letters assigned unsystematically because it isn't entirely a nasal tyelle (like the númentyelle in all modes included Beleriandic Sindarin).


 * Certainly, the appendices of the Lord of the Ring say that the assignment is free, but it adds that it's only theoretically free and that the actual assignments in the actual languages this script is used for aren't free.


 * I repeat my suggestion that there should be a note with the use of the tyeller and témar (I think the irregularity of the Beleriandic Sindarin óretyelle is an information too specific to be mentioned in Wikipedia). Actually, having another look at the article, I'd say that this information is already covered by the first and the third paragraph of the section tengwar letters. But there might be a note on the difference to the Latin alphabet on the third paragraph, I think. J. 'mach' wust 08:01, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

extra letters
The extended series are not only mentioned, but also attested by J. R. R. Tolkien himself, so they can't be considered extra letters added by some aficionados. The only extra letters I could think of are stemless tinco, stemless parma, and stemless quesse. These are based on the assumption that the c-shaped letter is a stemless calma. But I haven't ever seen them used for whatever purpose, so they're not for use in their modes. (It's very strange that they are even included in the unicode proposal while other attested tengwar signs aren't.) That's why I removed the passage. J. 'mach' wust 11:38, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

what's wrong with the other documents mentioned
Well, nothing, but I think it is of no help mentioning them here. At least they didn't add any information to an external history of the tengwar. The wording remain unpublished sounds very much influenced by the point of view of Lisa Star's page (and of others) that someone would deliberately refuse their publication, so I'd rather prefer the wording await publication which is less polemical. Lisa Star's page is not only polemical, but also out of date. -- j. 'mach' wust &#712;t&#688;&#596;&#797;&#720;k&#865;x 6 July 2005 22:46 (UTC)

well, look, I was trying to find material on the development of Tengwar. I couldn't find anything in HoME, and the only thing I could find online was LS referring to unpublished documents containing early forms of tengwar. If LS's page is 'out of date', I certainly couldn't find any page that is up to date. As for "await publication" vs. "remain unpublished", the latter is certainly more npov, simply stating that to date, they are unpublished, without speculating about the future. I don't know if the elfcon guys will or won't publish their stuff. It's been twelve years now, and at the present pace, I estimate that by 2099, when all JRRT's papers will be in the public domain, they'll have edited maybe two thirds or so. In fact, "await publication" smacks more of LS's impatience than simply stating that they are inaccessible. en Gruess, dab (&#5839;) 7 July 2005 09:20 (UTC)
 * The wording is okay then. As to Lisa Star's site not being up to date: I was thinking of further documents mentioned in more recent "elfcon" publications, or of reprints being made available. From what I guess, the material on early tengwar is about to be published in the next issue(s?) of Parma Eldalamberon, and I don't doubt that Arden R. Smith will again do an excellent job. Grüeß! -- j. 'mach' wust &#712;t&#688;&#596;&#797;&#720;k&#865;x 7 July 2005 10:21 (UTC)
 * of course, the quality of their editing is impeccable! it's just that they seem to think no-one on the planet would be capable of similar results. see the prolongued discussion on Talk:elfcon :) but that's hardly the point here. We just need to gather as much information as is possible at this point, and for that purpose, Lisa Star's page is still a valuable source, although that may change once the stuff is actually published. dab (&#5839;) 7 July 2005 10:33 (UTC)

D Bachmann writes: "I don't know if the elfcon guys will or won't publish their stuff. It's been twelve years now, and at the present pace, I estimate that by 2099, when all JRRT's papers will be in the public domain, they'll have edited maybe two thirds or so." On what basis do you make this "estimate"? Do you know what portion of the documents have already been published? If so, how would you know? Is _this_ the sort of "npov" that Wikipedia espouses? Or is that found in "they seem to think no-one on the planet would be capable of similar results" -- cite even ONE statement to that effect from any of us, or please keep your biased, uninformed misrepresentations of the status and formation of our project off Wikipedia, please. Carl F. Hostetter.
 * You seem to be laboring under a misapprehension. This is not an article where NPOV is enforced, but a discussion page where people are free to express their opinions. If, as here, an opinion is based on a lack of information, the most constructive approach toward correction is to provide that information. I invite you to do so. (And please note that the comments to which you are objecting were made nearly five months ago, prior to any more recent discussions you may have had on other talk pages.)
 * Actually, material contributions from someone of your standing would be most welcome here. You may have seen that Wikipedia is not a resource for publication of original research (see WP:NOR), but any research already published that you would be willing to contribute would, IMO, be highly valuable. TCC (talk) (contribs) 01:07, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't think I am under any misapprehension. DB's lack of "npov" was by way of _explaining his editorial decisions in compiling the article_. (Please re-read the thread of the discussion.) Since that editorial practice is clearly based on a pretty strong bias against my colleagues and me, as shown by his uniformed comments about our project's status and formation, I find it a relevant reflection on the pov of the article. The questioning of which, I remind you again, was what started this thread in the first place. Carl F. Hosteter
 * If you have specific POV issues with the article as it stands, it would be helpful to point them out so that someone can address them. I don't think that can be done by guessing at the motivations of individual editors.  Looking over the article history from that period and what appears to be the relevant section, the only remaining and possibly POV reference that seems connected to this discussion is: "A few other samples, e.g. a tengwar mode for Gothic are known to exist, but remain unpublished to date."  It references a link  -- and if you find that page annoying you have my sympathies; were I in your position it'd annoy me too.  But it's included as a reference for the claim being made, and about two-thirds of the way down I find, "§74. A Fëanorian Tengwar mode for Gothic and Taliska was edited and presented by Arden Smith at the 1994 Elfcon, according to VT35:7, but nothing further is known of this." (The passive voice implies that no one knows, but plainly this is false.  The writer means he doesn't know.)  At any rate, if you believe this or anything else in Tengwar is still slanted unfairly, either where I quoted above or in some other place that I missed you can do as you like to it -- or let us know here what your objections are, and I or someone else (time permitting) will do our best to accomodate them. (In general, only drastic or controversial edits need to be discussed in talk pages.  If a minor tweak to the phrasing will make the article more acceptable to you, go for it.)


 * But again, you're replying to a post made at the beginning of July, prior to your discussions with dab in September and October at Talk:elfcon. Is it not possible that he has modified his views somewhat as a result of those discussions? It doesn't really signify that the remarks remain on the talk page here. Standard Wikipedia practice is to not remove any material from talk pages. When they become too large the material is moved to an archive page in a subdirectory, not deleted.


 * Incidentally, a convenient way to sign your posts is to type four tildes at the end ~ . Unless you've modified your sig in your Preferences this will sign you as Aelfwine followed by a timestamp. TCC (talk) (contribs) 02:24, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Sure, it's possible he's changed his view. But since any such change isn't reflected here, I feel entitled to defend myself and my colleagues from the snide (and obviously uninformed -- how COULD he know the status of the project?) comments as they still stand. In that regard, it doesn't matter whether they were written in July or last century: they're still here, now. Oh, and thanks for the signature tip (which I did not know), I'll try it now: cfh 02:41, 2 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi. I started this thread in the first place in order to explain my edits of Dbachmann's contributions, trying to make it comply with the npov to the best of my knowledge. Basically, these edits still persist in the current revision of the article. I have badly chosen the title of this since it directly answers Dbachmann's comment to his 6th edit from 2005-07-06. -- j. 'mach' wust | ✑ 09:56, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

suggestions
dab (&#5839;) 7 July 2005 10:15 (UTC)
 * 1) I'm not sure about the samples, which just appear as garbage to most people. I say, show a nice image, describe the encoding efforts, but wait with actual samples until there is an official unicode block.
 * 2) The section about Jackson's movie imho should go to an article that actually discusses Jackson's movies. This article cannot cover use of Tengwar outside Tolkien's works, which brings me to
 * 3) this article should discuss use of Tengwar by Tolkien, especially early examples. i.e. it should list known documents. The lonely mountain jar is a start, then there is the Numenorean text, and the various pages facsimiled in HoME. The obscure documents (the Gothic mode etc.) should also be mentioned, if their existence is at all substantiated.


 * I like the samples. I prefer keeping them, though reducing the first one and adding a nice image version.
 * I guess that at the movie's article, they might consider moving that part here. I support the point that the non-Tolkienian tengwar use cannot be discussed, yet I think the movie is the one admittable exception.
 * Ultimately, this is questioning the Mellonath Daeron Index of Tengwar Specimina (DTS), the one authority of counting published tengwar samples. Rivalling with them would not contribute to, but keep from having an unequivocal list of the tengwar samples. -- j. 'mach' wust &#712;t&#688;&#596;&#797;&#720;k&#865;x 7 July 2005 10:48 (UTC)

excellent! I hadn't seen the link (*blush*). In this case, we will discuss the most notable of these 64 samples. There is nothing to keep us from discussing all of them, mind you, of course referring to them as our authority. cheers, dab (&#5839;) 7 July 2005 10:54 (UTC)

Sorry, I reverted before seeing this discussion. Please remove again the first sample if you prefer, but I'd like to mantain it. GhePeU 7 July 2005 12:07 (UTC)

ok, but you do realize how this looks to people without the font? like this: 6E1zTjL 5^(º j#¸ 9t&5# w`Vb%_ 6EO w6Y5 e7~V 2{( zèVj# 5% 2x%51T`Û 2{( 7v%1+º 4hR 7EO 2 {$yYO2 y4% 7]F85^ 2{( z5^8i`B5$i( 2{( dyYj2 zE1 1`N ]Fa 4^(6 5% `C 8q7T1T W w74^(69~N2º Â 6E1zTjL 1é`Nº r$(7`Û5^( 8% 1[R1TjL2 1`N j#¸ @ 7v%1+ 2{( e7~V2t^_ 81R e6Y3 5% 48% 2zRj7E1E`B5^¹ y4%yY1 28%1z[T1`B5^ W 5#`Û z2{%¹ 8aU 8# 7iE(¹ zj^yY6¹ 8zR|¹ jx{#`Mx#(¹  7j$x%`B5^¹ qj^1TzTj# 7Y 4^(6 qY5%`B5^¹ 51E`B5^j# 6Y 8iY`Bj# 7Yx%5%¹ q7qY6R1`Û¹ w6T3 7Y 4^(6 811E8&º e6U4(6t6YO¹ 5`N 28%1z[T1`B5^ dj#¸ w`V t2#( 5^ @ w8#8% W" qj^1TzTj#¹ s7U8%2zT1`B5^j# 7Y 1[T6R51E`B5^j# 811E8& W" zyY1[7`Û 6Y 17R'1T7Y`Û 1`N oaT `C q6R85^  wj$b^_¹ o4$(6 1T w`V 2{%qR2{$1[R¹ 178&1¹ 55^Â8j$eÂxr^6R5b% 7Y 2{&(67 5#`Û 4^(6 jt%1T1E`B5^ W 8r^7RhRx51`Ûº if you do have the fonts, you'd hardly need to be told what tengwar looks like, and if you have both fonts, you just see the same text twice. So I really don't quite se e the point... dab (&#5839;) 7 July 2005 12:15 (UTC)
 * also note that ttf fonts are not obvious for all systems. For my platform, I'd have to go through some conversion process. Why not just take a snapshot of the text, or better yet, a small sample of each font so they can be compared at a glance? dab (&#5839;) 7 July 2005 12:19 (UTC)

history
look, you cannot just "remove non-tengwar" from the History section. The point of the section is to trace the development of the script, so it will naturally also discuss proto-forms. dab (&#5839;) 7 July 2005 13:40 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry. I thought they accidently slipped in. However, it does not make sense to mention only these two rather very insignificant samples since there are many more. -- j. 'mach' wust &#712;t&#688;&#596;&#797;&#720;k&#865;x 7 July 2005 15:24 (UTC)
 * hm, well, they do have a DTS number, which apparently implies they may be considered tengwar-ish. But do feel free to discuss the others! dab (&#5839;) 8 July 2005 07:59 (UTC)
 * The reason for their inclusion in the DTS is that until the publication of Parma Eldalamberon 14, the existence of Valmaric was not known. -- j. 'mach' wust &#712;t&#688;&#596;&#797;&#720;k&#865;x 8 July 2005 12:49 (UTC)

Alternate German Tengwar Mode
I'd like to submit my own Tengwar mode for the representation of German to the list of modes. It differs in quite a few points from the other one I've seen on the net so far. Here it is.

BTW, the existing link to a German mode appears to be broken. Oh, and Mach: /kry@s/ ;o) Qatharsis 23:28, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Autotransliterator
If you haven't seen it, this thing may be useful when creating pages containing Tengwar. Ojw 13:32, 2 December 2005 (UTC)


 * This version is perhaps more useful for those who don't speak Polish. TCC (talk) (contribs) 19:45, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Tibetan script
The current/classical Tibetan script has no mutual correspondance of shape features and sound features. I don't know if this was the case in the old Tibetan phagspa script, which according to the theory by Gari Ledyard was the origin of the Corean hangul script, though I rather doubt it, especially while I don't see any evidence for it. ― j. 'mach' wust | ✑ 18:16, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

evidence that this is still the "de facto standard" in spite of Unicode?
See in fora that use tengwar, e.g. in elfscript, or at pages on tengwar, e.g. at Amanye Tenceli. ― j. 'mach' wust | ⚖ 13:27, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Difference between text and graphic
The bit encoded like `N ]Fa 4^(6 looks different. I haven't got the time to figure out why, so I dump it here. Shinobu 16:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * This should be fixed now. Alatius 20:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Gh?
I always see the letter /gh/ in the tengwar and some of Tolkien's languages. Can somebody please tell me what sound this letter makes. I've read on a website that its a voiced /ch/, just like /g/ is a voiced /c/, but I don't know if I should trust this since I found that a voiced /ch/ makes a /j/ sound and theres already a /j/ in the tengwar. Can somebody please help me with this.-Anonimous —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.172.237.93 (talk) 08:31, 14 April 2007 (UTC).


 * Ch (digraph) is ambiguous. If it represents the sound [ç], then its voiced counterpart ist indeed [j], or more exactly speaking, [ʝ]. If it represents the sound [x], then its voiced counterpart is [ɣ], which is often represented by gh (digraph), for instance by Tolkien. Make sure not to confound [j] with [ʤ], the sound most English speakers would associate with the letter j. -- j. 'mach' wust ☛ ☏ 15:54, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * So its the Voiced velar fricative that is used by Tolkien? Please confirm this because frankly speaking your comment doesn't quite speak my language :P.-Anonimous —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.172.237.93 (talk) 04:53, 16 April 2007 (UTC).


 * To elaborate on what J. 'mach' wust was saying, the sound represented in the International Phonetic Alphabet by the letter j is the sound that is usually made by the letter y in English text. Also, a note on phonetic conventions: slashes are used for phonemic indications (how a native speaker perceives a sound), e.g. /h/; square brackets are used for phonetic transcriptions (how the sound is actually pronounced), e.g. in English, the sound we perceive as /h/ is actually pronounced [h] (in the throat) in the word hello but pronounced [ç] (at the top of the mouth) in huge (try it!); finally, orthographic information (how a sound is written) is put in angle brackets, e.g.  and  are both usually pronounced /f/ in English.  — The Storm Surfer 23:22, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Tolkien's organization of the tengwar (for Sindarin) is quite systematic, as you can see in the LOTR appendices: four basic consonants: (all IPA):
 * t...p...tʃ....k in the first row. Then the same consonants, voiced:
 * d...b...dʒ..g. Then the fricative, corresponding to the basic consonant (ʃ and ʒ lose their plosives here):
 * θ...f....ʃ...χ, (written as th, ph, sh, kh) and finally, the basic consonants, voiced and as fricative:
 * ð...v....ʒ...ɣ, (written as dh, bh, j(?), gh). So, the voiced velar fricative is the sound written as "gh". -- megA (talk) 14:39, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Spanish mode
I for one think it's pointless to link all these different apocryphal modes created merely by Tolkien-aficionados. But it's even more pointless to link two different versions of such a mode. There are two Spanish modes by Lambenor, a Spanish Tolkien society: espanol_1999.html and espanol.html. Which one to include (if any)? Having a closer look at them, you will find that the former begins with a note that says: ''Nota: Ésta es la versión original (de 1999) del modo consensuado para la escritura del castellano en Tengwar. Este modo ha sido revisado, y la versión más actual se encuentra en http://lambenor.free.fr/tengwar/espanol. That is, roughly translated: ‘Note: This is the original version (from 1999) of the consensual mode for writing Spanish in tengwar. This mode has been revised, and the more up-to-date version is to be found at http://lambenor.free.fr/tengwar/espanol.''’ So if any of the two versions is linked, I'd only link the more up-to-date version, especially since the older version is mentioned in the newer one. -- j. 'mach' wust ☛ ☏ 23:24, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello, I have removed this text about Fernando Torres' tatoo: "both the "incorrect" "r" (rómen is used instead of óre) as well as". This is because in my opinion it is correct to spell Fernando with rómen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.40.83.6 (talk) 23:49, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:OneRing.jpg
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Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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BetacommandBot 04:45, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Abugida?
"Some modes, called ómatehtar (or vowel tehtar) modes, are abugidas representing vowels with diacritics called tehtar". That's an abjad, then, not an abugida. An abugida would mean that there is an inherent vovel in the "bare" signs, like in Brahmic scripts (a in Devanagari, ô in Bengali etc.). Tengwar, on the other hand, are consonants where all vowels are represented with diacritics (like semitic scripts.) Or am I mistaken? -- megA (talk) 14:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * EDIT: As I see, it has been asked before. Shouldn't it be changed? -- megA (talk) 14:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Fixed. &mdash; Gwalla | Talk 18:07, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Abugidas don't always have an implicit vowel (although Quenya can be written with implicit a) and the term abjad implies that the vowels are optional to a degree which they are not in standard Quenya and Sindarin modes, nor in any published text that I know of. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.114.146.117 (talk) 10:59, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Unicode font
I tried downloading one of the Unicode fonts out there (specifically, the one found here), and went back to the Wikipedia article discussing Tengwar, but the sections that promised that I'd be able to see the actual letters (as opposed to the Unicode coding) still came up as jibberish. Is the font that I downloaded "incorrect"? —Micahbrwn (talk) 05:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Read again. The font you downloaded (Tengwar Annatar) is not listed as a Unicode font. The Unicode example is correctly visible only with Code 2000 or Code 2001. –Alatius (talk) 09:17, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I remember owning a copy of Version 1.0 of the Unicode Standard, and I distinctly remember seeing the Tengwar assigned official code points in it. I do not know what happened; apparently while nothing can be removed from later versions of the Unicode standard, version 1.0 was recognized as flawed. Quadibloc (talk) 05:57, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, Tengwar was never encoded in Unicode. DRMcCreedy (talk) 20:38, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

"Tengwar with full-length telco"
The section "Tengwar with full-length telco" contains a number of wrong statements:


 * These things are not called "Tengwar with full-length telco", but "extended Tengwar".
 * It is not true that they have never been used for any Elvish languages. To the contrary, we know Qenya samples that use them (PE 19).
 * There is no "English tehta mode" that uses two of them, at least no original English mode by Tolkien, and I very much doubt that any secondary modes by Tolkien fans meet Wikipedia's relevancy standards.
 * We do not know any Quenya names for the extended tengwar.
 * The ring inscription does not use tengwar characters with extended stems, but glyph variants of the tengwar characters with raised stems that look like extended stems.

However, it is fair to mention the extended stems. I am moving what remains of the section to the section "Regularly formed letters" which by the way is more appropriate since the extended stem tengwar are indeed regularly formed. -- mach 🙈🙉🙊 19:22, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The extended tinco and parma are used in English, but as abbreviations of "the" and "of" rather than to represent sounds. — Eru·tuon 22:29, 7 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Ah, sure, that's right! -- mach 🙈🙉🙊 18:27, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Errors in the names of the tengwar
The table of tengwar linked from this page and shown in thumbnail, File:Tengwar alphabet.png, includes the names of the tengwar. Two of them are misspelled:* the "reversed" forms in columns II and IV of the 8th row (#30 and 32 in Appendix E of Return of the King, p. 396 in Houghton Mifflin Second Edition), where their names are given as silme nuquerna and áre (or esse) nuquerna (p. 401), not nu n querna.

* Even apart from the omission of acute accents for long vowels, as in rómen (col. I, unnumbered 7th row).

--Thnidu (talk) 04:49, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Fixed.—Emil J. 13:09, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Tengwar.svg
Am I missing something, or does the image in tengwar.svg actually read "tegwar?" 71.81.134.211 (talk) 02:22, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
 * You're missing the fact that all voiced stops in Quenya only appear preceded by nasals, and so the letters that would represent voiced stops in the Sindarin mode represent nasal–voiced stop sequences in the Quenya mode. In this case, the letter that would represent gw in Sindarin represents ngw in Quenya. — Eru·tuon 02:55, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Any known tengwa glyph for "hl" sound (lateral affricate)? What about tone? Or vowel nasalization?
Using the basic phonological rules, I've invented my own letter for this, a bit like the lambe , but with a vertical stroke coming down from above to the beginning of the usual horizontal stroke, much as the other fricative tengwar all have stems above the baseline. Does anyone know of any more canonical way of spelling the lateral fricative sound, like the "hl" in Czech, or the "ll" in Welsh, or the "ł" (barred L) in some other languages? I suppose you could just use  (hyarmen + lambe), but that seems inelegant somehow.

Also, does anyone know of any canonical way of marking tone (high, low, rising, falling, etc)? I've developed my own cludge using a mode with stems under all tehtar, with long stems below the line for vowels with high tones and short stems for vowels with low tones, writing two stems close together with one long and one short to mark rising or falling. But perhaps someone's come up with a different system?

And likewise for nasalized vowels -- what have others done? I've just used the nasalized marker in combination with the tehtar stem.

Curious, -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:21, 14 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Let me see if I can answer your questions. AFAIK, there is no canonical way of representing "hl". According to Pesch, letters like hyarmen and lambe are outside the formal structure of the tengwar writing system anyway, and may even have different values depending on the language that uses them.


 * I can't find anything about rising and falling tone, but long vowels can be written in two ways. In Quenya mode, the tehtar are put on a long stem, so "á" would be ~C (cf. the "Namárië" poem); in Beleriand mode, where vowels are represented by entire tengwar, "á" can be represented by ]$.


 * A tilde-like diacritic or a bar above the letter has been recorded in Beleriand mode as a way of marking nasalized consonants, but there doesn't seem to be a way for vowels. De728631 (talk) 18:41, 14 June 2013 (UTC)


 * If I am not mistaken, Tolkien's way of representing [ɬ] was with the sequence . I think that Wikipedia is not the right place to discuss personal tengwar modes. They lack encyclopedic relevance. A more appropriate places to discuss them is for instance the elfscript mailing list (or, today, its successor, elfscript2) where we have discussed an elaborate Chinese mode with tones and everything back in 2004. --mach 🙈🙉🙊 21:02, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Unicode displaying all characters... but with tehtar spacers?
I'm seeing all the unicode characters but all the tehtar are on blank circles, instead of their corresponding tengwar. Any idea what's going on, and/or anyone else seeing it like this, technically-readable but wrong?

jFiander (talk) 17:08, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is a font incompatibility issue. The Unicode string is set to be displayed with any of the following fonts, in order of preference: 'Tengwar Formal CSUR', 'FreeMonoTengwar', 'Constructium', 'Everson Mono', 'Tengwar Formal Unicode', 'Tengwar Telcontar'. You see it displayed with the last of these, Tengwar Telcontar, meaning that you most likely don't have any of the preceding fonts installed; on most systems, the Unicode example will currently look best with Tengwar Formal CSUR. (The font you have, Tengwar Telcontar is more finicky than the other fonts; in most browsers you will see the erroneous circles you describe. If, however, you use Firefox with Graphite enabled to display the article, then it will give the best rendering of all of the fonts.) --Alatius (talk) 11:00, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Fictional & nonfictional history
is it ok to change the titles of these sections to "internal history" and "external history" or would that confuse the readers? i think authors prefer the terms 'internal' & 'external' when writing about their work. — Soap — 14:57, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree that internal and external history are more idiomatic in this context. --SynConlanger (talk) 20:43, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

Capitalisation of 'tengwar' (and 'tengwa')
The word tengwar should be capitalised to Tengwar throughout the article when it refers to the script. When it refers to "letters" - that is, used as a Quenya translation for the plural noun it should remain uncapitalised. For example: The Tengwar ''is a writing system invented by author J. R. R. Tolkien for use with his Elvish languages. The word tengwar itself is Quenya for 'letters' (the singular being tengwa. ) In the internal history of Middle-earth the Tengwar was invented by the elf Fëanor.'' – Dyolf87 (talk) 21:53, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Mistake in Tengwar modes comparison image?
I just realzed that the pronunciation for 'anna' is given as [y] in the common mode, however I'm pretty sure that [j] is meant, as the common mode doesn't include any vocalic sounds in the regular tengwar. Yodo9000 (talk) 16:16, 25 January 2021 (UTC)