Talk:The Legend of Kyrandia

Requested move 13 October 2020

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved as proposed. Consensus for subsequent moves of related pages is unclear, and will require a new proposal. BD2412 T 00:58, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

The Legend of Kyrandia: Fables and Fiends → The Legend of Kyrandia – The title of this article is incorrect (it mistakenly assumes the series title "Fables and Fiends" is this series entry title), and the original article location was most consistent with the article titles of other games in the series. Ideally, this "Legend of Kyrandia" article should have links to other games in the series in a hatnote for disambiguation, since the other games are part of the same canon. If an article on all of the Kyrandia games is written, its proper title should be "Fable and Fiends," the official series name. For sources and more information, see the Legend of Kyrandia or Westwood Studios template talk pages. Jellocube (talk) 18:36, 13 October 2020 (UTC) —Relisting.  Heart  (talk) 14:08, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I think User:Mika1h redirected that page here, so I would want to know what they say about this. 8.37.179.254 (talk) 19:50, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with the first game moved to "The Legend of Kyrandia" but the series article (if it's ever recreated) should also be titled "The Legend of Kyrandia". "Fables and Fiends" might have been the intended title but that didn't happen in practise. --Mika1h (talk) 20:35, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Actually similar thing happened with The Bard's Tale series. First game's full title was "Tales of the Unknown, Volume I: The Bard's Tale" but the series never used that original series title again and the series is now known by the subtitle. --Mika1h (talk) 20:50, 13 October 2020 (UTC)


 * I appreciate the research and agree with your conclusion that Fables & Fiends was the series' title, but per WP:COMMONNAME this is still the Legend of Kyrandia series. You'd be hard-pressed to find a majority of reliable sources that use the name Fables & Fiends over Kyrandia to refer to these games. It's the same with Baldur's Gate, whose actual title (on the box and even in some early coverage) is Forgotten Realms: Baldur's Gate, the same naming convention used for Planescape: Torment. But sources refer to Forgotten Realms: Baldur's Gate as Baldur's Gate while, for some reason, using Planescape: Torment rather than simply Torment. Arbitrary? Yes. But WP:COMMONNAME requires us to follow what's most commonly used whether it's arbitrary or not. So, although I support moving this specific page to The Legend of Kyrandia, I disagree with your mass renaming of the series to Fables & Fiends across Wikipedia and would recommend that it be reverted to The Legend of Kyrandia. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 21:00, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The series names Fables and Fiends and The Legend of Kyrandia are both used inconsistently across international and CD-ROM releases. What is the Wikipedia policy on series that is arbitrarily referred to by different names depending on the marketing at the time of a given release? Unlike The Bard's Tale, the series name Fables & Fiends and The Legend of Kyrandia both appear on box art for all games of the trilogy, albeit inconsistently. Jellocube (talk) 00:11, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * After a bit more research, I've found the following names for the games in the series. Forward slashes denote line breaks/typography changes in the titles, the US release of third game is the only to use any punctuation:
 * Fables & Fiends / The Legend of Kyrandia / Book One (original US and International release box art, and the CD-ROM re-release)
 * Fables & Fiends / The Hand of Fate (original US box art)
 * Fables & Fiends / The Hand of Fate (original international box art)
 * Fables & Fiends / The Legend of Kyrandia / Book Two (CD ROM talkie re-release, unknown region)
 * The Legend of Kyrandia / Book Two / The Hand of Fate (CD ROM talkie re-release, unknown region)
 * The Legend of Kyrandia / Book Three: Malcolm's Revenge (original US box art)
 * Fables & Fiends / The Legend of Kyrandia / Book Three (original international box art)
 * The Legend of Kyrandia / The Series (1997 trilogy re-release)
 * I can provide product photos of these to anyone who asks, just can't upload it under Fair Use for talk pages. I think it makes sense to refer to the games as The Legend of Kyrandia series based on WP:COMMONNAME as noted above, but the Fables & Fiends series should probably be discussed somewhere for non-US readers, and since it appears on at least half the Kyrandia canon releases.  Jellocube (talk) 00:41, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree that the Fables & Fiends name should be mentioned/detailed in the articles. No dispute there, as it's clearly relevant to discuss. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 01:31, 14 October 2020 (UTC)


 * The name of the series, or at least the common name or the eventual name, is The Legend of Kyrandia. An article should exist there and for that reason, I do not think this page should use it as that will lead to problems down the road. For now The Legend of Kyrandia should be a disambiguation page. This page could move to The Legend of Kyrandia (1992 video game). --Gonnym (talk) 14:45, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * If it helps, the series page once looked like this before it was redirected here, if that is the sort of thing you are looking for? 8.37.179.254 (talk) 15:35, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
 * That series article looks fine to me, I could even throw some sources in the uncited section. Renaming this article The Legend of Kyrandia (1992 Video Game) probably makes the most sense, although it is a bit inconsistent with the article names for the two other Kyrandia games (The Legend of Kyrandia: Hand of Fate and The Legend of Kyrandia: Malcolm's Revenge). Also, how should the series title be noted in the game infoboxes and Westwood Studios template? Jellocube (talk) 18:10, 14 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Support as proposed. The shorter name is much more common on Google Books ( vs. ) and looking through some of the top hits it appears that this game is the meaning intended.--Cúchullain t/ c 17:53, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Source

 * https://archive.org/details/eu_MacFormat-1994-08-UK_OCR/page/n101/mode/2up
 * https://web.archive.org/web/20021122190852/http://www.adventuregamers.com:80/display.php?id=110
 * https://archive.org/stream/CGStrategyPlus_assorted/CG-StrategyPlus-23#page/n7/mode/2up
 * https://web.archive.org/web/20040923064431/http://www.gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/westwood_15/p4_01.html
 * https://web.archive.org/web/20190706230259/http://publicaciones.retromuseo.com:8123/Revistasv1/Retro%20Gamer%20%5Ben-UK%5D/retro%20gamer%20%5Ben-uk%5D%20090.pdf

Title
This article says the title is The Legend of Kyrandia: Book One - Fables and Fiends, but the article itself is titled The Legend of Kyrandia: Fables and Fiends. Wikipedia's Index of DOS Games and MobyGames say the title is "The Legend of Kyrandia". Which one is right? Can we all pick one? --HunterZ (talk) 17:51, 6 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The title of this game is definitively "Legend of Kyrandia," the article and Westwood Studios template are wrong. "Fables and Fiends" is the name of the series. I am looking at the side of the original 1992 big box release right now, and it reads: "If you liked King's Quest(R), you'll love The Legend of Kyrandia(TM), a whole new realm of fantasy adventure, the first in the Fables and Fiends(TM) series." I have attached a photo citation. However, it is true that titling of the Kyrandia series has always been inconsistent, including multiple game and international releases. Rick Gush hints this was due to corporate bungling in the following Adventure Gamers interview from 2002:

"The first game was a solid A-minus or B-plus, and was definitely just what the doctor ordered for the new relationship with Virgin, which was products in the pipeline. But then the next title, the Hand Of Fate, suffered mightily at the hands of an unbelievably arrogant new VP of marketing at Virgin. She, Kathy something or other, lasted only long enough to sabotage the HOF launch, and then she got the axe. HOF only did half the sales of the first title. Not a surprise, considering the cryptic ads which forgot to mention the title of the game, and the famous "nuclear explosion" box in the US release. I'm not sure what a nuclear explosion has to do with a medieval comedy game, but she would not even discuss the situation with me and said stuff like "I'm a vice-president, and I don't have to speak to Producers." Ha! An incredible twit. Gosh I wish I could remember her last name.

Then the last, Malcolm's Revenge similarly suffered from lack of marketing effort. Incredibly, the game was never even shown at a trade show. By this time Command and Conquer was hot stuff, and the brass at Westwood did not care about anything else. I'm still annoyed at the lack of respect Kyrandia got even within the company. We had too many new marketing people coming and going, and the "little" project got pushed aside."

- Rick Gush, lead writer and director on the Legend of Kyrandia/Fables & Fiends series


 * Fables and Fiends was originally planned to include non-Kyrandia games -- in another interview in the book "The Art of Point and Click Adventures" published by Bitmap Books in 2018 (page 188), Louis Castle stated:

"The Legend of Kyrandia was originally intended as a single story but, as we developed the game, the world expanded and we were all excited about making a game that departed from the original framework."

- Louis Castle, co-founder of Westwood Studios


 * From the above, one can infer that what was first marketed as "Fables and Fiends" and what is commonly referred to as "The Legend of Kyrandia series" are the exact same series of games. I hope this clears things up. Jellocube (talk) 18:16, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Title
I think how the series name, Fables & Fiends, should be discussed more. The inconsistent naming of these games, book one, book two and book three, comes in almost all possible combinations. For instance, The Legend of Kyrandia is named "Book One Fables and Fiends" on the cover of The Legend of Kyrandia The Series-box. My first game, which was book two did not have any mentions of having Legend of Kyrandia as a part of the title at all, putting it as part of the Fables & Fiends-series, while The Series-box does put all games in the The Legend of Kyrandia-series. I think a list of used titles should be mentioned in some way. Right now, it is brushed off a practically non-existent except for in the footer. I also see problems with how it is handled on the other games page, book two and book three. Book two, The Legend of Kyrandia: Hand of Fate, contains a section starting with "Following the events of Fables and Fiends...", for instance. Tempusthor (talk) 12:08, 15 February 2021 (UTC)