Talk:Thomas Merton/Archive 2

Clarification Regarding Thomas Merton's Child
According to Michael Mott's biography, "The Seven Mountains of Thomas Merton," Merton fathered a child while he was a student at Cambridge. There was some threat of legal action, and a settlement was made. Although there is a tradition that Merton's child and his mother were killed in the London blitz, Merton himself evidently did not believe this. He discreetly provided for his son in his will, "if the person can be contacted." Younggoldchip (talk) 20:05, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Merton and Buddhism
While he clearly had an interest in Eastern religions, this section seems slanted toward pushing Buddhism in general and Zen in particular. The sources cited don't establish the primacy of Zen among his interests, which the text here states. Elsewhere I've read that his abridged version of the Chuang Tzu, a Taoist classic, was his favorite book among the 70 he wrote. We should rewrite this section more closely to the sources.Msalt (talk) 07:03, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Early life
I was reading this article, and I came across a phrase that I did not think contained the right tone for the article, and I wanted to ask others what they thought before I changed it. It is in the section headed "Early Life". It is in the third sentence of the third paragraph. We read that Merton's father fell in love with Evelyn Scott, who was married to someone else. Then we read, "Merton never quite hit it off with Evelyn Scott". I thought "hit it off" was inappropriate for two reasons: 1)  in 1922, Merton was seven years old.  I think "hit it off" is used more for adult relationships, or at least for peers, not for a seven-year-old and an adult woman friend of his father's.  2)  I also think the phrase "hit it off" is just a bit too informal for this article.

I would like to change it to something like, "Merton never quite warmed to Evelyn Scott," or "Merton never came to like Evelyn Scott," or "Merton never felt comfortable with Evelyn Scott." Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome.CorinneSD (talk) 14:25, 22 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Go for it. Span (talk) 20:39, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

France 1926
In the second paragraph in the section "France 1926", there is a note "Disambiguation needed" for Murat. I wondered why disambiguation was needed since there was a phrase right after it in parentheses saying "in the Auvergne". When I clicked on the link at "Murat", I saw a long list of items. However, only two of them were towns in France. The problem is that there are two towns named Murat in France, and both are in the Auvergne region. I did a little research on-line and saw that Murat in the department of Alliers is a small village, with a population of 274 in 2007, and Murat in the department of Cantal is a town, known as the City of Murat, with a population of 2,053 in 2007, both according to Map-France.com; according to France-Voyage.com in Nov. 2013, Murat in Cantal has a population of 2,153. The second Murat, the one in Cantal, is full of historical buildings. Just judging from the size of the town, I would guess that the Murat mentioned in the second paragraph in the section "France 1926" is the one in the department of Cantal. However, that is just a guess. Maybe someone who knows more about Merton's life can determine which is the correct Murat and perhaps even supply a reference. – CorinneSD (talk) 21:37, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Just wanted you to know I've been researching this all day and have yet to find anything definitive. I did find in this book that Merton stayed with the Privat family in Murat.  We can use that book source as a reference for the citation needed at the end of the section, because it does describe Owen Merton's activities at that time.  I also found that the Lycée in Montauban is about 200 km south and west of the southernmost Murat in Cantal, and it is more than twice as far to the little commune of Murat in the northern Auvergne at Allier.  So Murat, Cantal, looks better and better as the "rustic village" where Merton had fun in the surrounding woods and mountains as a boy.  I'll have to keep looking, though, because all this is still just original research and can't be used in the article to determine which Murat is meant. –   Paine Ellsworth   C LIMAX ! 23:15, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm so glad you have looked into this. Thanks for the link to the book; it was interesting reading. While the shorter distance to Murat, Cantal, from the Lycée in Montauban is a clue, the phrase "rustic village" might point to the smaller town rather than the larger town.  On the other hand, it seems there were several churches in the Murat he visited; those would be more likely to be in the larger town (Murat, Cantal).  I thought of three other possible directions for researching this:
 * the family name "Privat"; perhaps the family is to be found in only one, or is more numerous in one, of the two towns. Is there a way to look up the family name in a French directory?
 * the description of "fir trees" and "cliffs" surrounding the village; perhaps these are found in one but not the other village/town.
 * Perhaps we, or someone, has access to either Thomas Merton's or his father's letters, which may be at the University of Kentucky; there may be more information in a letter, or a postmark. (I believe I tried finding some mention of Murat in the Merton papers on-line, but with no success, but it is still an avenue worth pursuing.  Perhaps an e-mail to the director of the Merton Center?)
 * I looked at the map in the link you provided. I couldn't find either of the two Murat's or even the Auvergne.  How did you find them?CorinneSD (talk) 17:54, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The map had a "hover" function whereby you hover your mouse over the sometimes tiny departments and a little box with the name and population density would pop up. Since the two Murat articles both show the approximate position in the Auvergne region, and since the article on Montauban also shows its location, I just kept hovering until I found the towns.  The "rustic village" probably does not apply to the larger town now, but back in 1926–27, it was quite a bit smaller.  You can actually set the year on that map back to the '60s, I think, but not as far back as the '20s.  Back then, the smaller Murat was probably exceedingly small, and the larger town may have been very well described as a "rustic village".  I rode a train through that region once and, oh god is it beautiful! –   Paine Ellsworth   C LIMAX ! 21:51, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Merton - "Anglo-American"
How can Merton be an "Anglo-American" as described? Now changed to simply "American", but even that is perhaps not accurate enough. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kiwirad (talk • contribs) 03:31, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not entirely accurate either way. French-born to a New Zealander (if I recall of English-Irish origin) father and American mother, but was a British citizen who didn't become a naturalized American citizen until 1951. --ColonelHenry (talk) 04:54, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Rome 1933
The last sentence in the section "Rome 1933" reads:


 * "He would eventually become a Trappist monk, and although some Trappist monks are known for silence, Merton was always very vocal about his beliefs in his writings."

There is some ambiguity in the last part of this sentence. In the clause beginning "although", a contrast is described between the characteristic silence of Trappist monks and Merton's outspokenness ("was always very vocal").


 * If "was always very vocal about his beliefs in his writings" refers only to Merton's written expressions of his beliefs, then the contrast between that expression and silence is faulty. Written expression is always silent.


 * If Merton was "always very vocal about his beliefs" means that he did not hesitate to express his beliefs verbally, or orally, then "in his writings" is either unnecessary or placed in the wrong location in the sentence.

I really do not know what was meant. Perhaps someone who knows about Merton could make the minor edits that would clarify this sentence. I think the problem is the choice of words. I think "was always very vocal" needs to be changed to something more precise. – CorinneSD (talk) 16:08, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
 * This sentence struck me as inappropriate, too. It contains a false antagonism. Trappist monks keep silence in their daily monastic life, but this doesn't mean they are not allowed or discouraged to express themselves in writing or publishing. --Jossi (talk) 11:56, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Bermuda Triangle
Under "Early Life," I removed Merton using the "Bermuda Triangle" as a phrase to describe his father, Evelyn Scott, and Scott’s husband. As it was written, it was unclear whether Merton’s comment referred to those three people or to France, Italy, and England, or to those three places and Algeria. For a source, I couldn’t find anything except thefamouspeople.com --GoldCoastPrior (talk) 14:44, 25 September 2015 (UTC) "Merton later half-jokingly referred to them as the "Bermuda Triangle".."

- Previous version of the article

"quiet pacifism"
I would clarify what "quiet pacifism" means, cite it, and elaborate on his views about it. Merely stating that he wrote about it may leave the impression that he espoused it. I have read that while Merton was sympathetic with pacifism, he still rejected it—albeit formally and academically—once stating that "a community has the right to defend itself by force if other means do not avail" (Thomas Merton On Peace, 1971 p. xix). Londonjackbooks (talk) 19:59, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Note: He is categorized as an American Christian pacifist. Londonjackbooks (talk) 20:38, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

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External links modified (February 2018)
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Thomas Merton wasn`t Catalan
Thomas Merton was an American citizen all his life. A user is trying to present him as Catalan because he said: "I imagined myself a Catalan by birth". He wasn`t saying that he was a Catalan and its absurd to call him that.Mistico (talk) 17:54, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

..................................................... The Spirituality beyond Catholicism section in the article is quite good. However, there is no mention of the fact that a large number of conservative Catholics objected to his interest in these topics. I find that to be a serious lacking. In my own contact with Catholic clergy and monastics, I never encountered any interest in non-Catholic spirituality in the US, although I did encounter it in the Philippines, where an interest in zen is sometimes expressed among Catholic clergy. To fully understand Merton's legacy (as discussed in the Legacy section of the article), some attention to the opposition to Merton's interest in this topic would improve the article.184.180.87.188 (talk) 15:36, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Sure, do you know any reliable secondary sources that cover the topic? Elizium23 (talk) 15:41, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Overall
This article has a great deal of unnecessary detail about Merton's early life, which would be fine for a biography but isn't needed here. And it has far too little detail about his work, which is the whole reason the article exists in the first place. --MiguelMunoz (talk) 20:01, 24 September 2015 (UTC) This is... a biography. But I agree about adding more about his work. Elizium23 (talk) 20:18, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Someone has this month put a "story" template on this article. I don't think that is fair criticism: I find the article reads well, though it is perhaps a bit long. Deipnosophista (talk) 13:55, 28 August 2018 (UTC)


 * I agree that the article should be more encyclopedic, concise and fact-filled. I have tried improving the first part, in response to the "storey" template. Please let's discuss. Jzsj (talk) 07:36, 24 June 2020 (UTC)